Is being homosexual shameful?

[dsc]

I was watching the Dateline segment on the Stanford Prison experiment on Sunday and was struck by the simularity in the meansures used in that and the ones used in the photos of the Iraqi prisioners. Both used homosexual forms of humiliation on their prisoners. It seems that is a common theme in the other sorces sited here on this. So I guess, I wonder if even in this day and age if the majority of people find being a homosexual shameful? On edit If it isn't, why is that form of humiliation so commonly used?

On further edit I was getting at what theories were behind this thing. The pervasiveness of it is what is so surprising and I guess the nearly universal reaction that these people would have to move away etc.

[DrWeird]

1. Yeah, it's shameful.

At least it's seen that way by a significant portion of heterosexual men. It's like they go out of their way to keep people from thinking they might be gay; it's like they're afraid of it.

[dsc]

4. I guess I am surprised that it still is

at least so widely. Working in high schools has actually been a pleasant surprise in that regard, though junior high is still junior high. I just am saddened that apparently our military is on the junior high level.

[TahitiNut]

11. There are two reasons a person might not want to thought a homosexual.

(1) They're an ignorant bigot.

- or -

(2) They don't wish to be guilty of false advertising.

_______________________

If I were a hotdog stand, I'd not advertise falafels. :shrug:

[AndyTiedye]

22. (3) Don't want to get beat up by ignorant bigots from #1

[Dookus]

2. No it's not

but I think you're missing the point of the Stanford experiment.

Sexual humiliation against one's will is shameful. For straight people, forced homosexuality is horrifying.

This has nothing to do with gay vs. straight - it has to do with using sex to humiliate people. And sex taboos are among the most deeply rooted taboos humans have.

[The Shadow]

9. Exactly

[Unperson 309]

13. It's Actually Misogyny.

Usually, societies (almost overwhelmingly) contemn male-male sex but not necessarily female-female sex. More to the point, however, the contempt WRT male-male is for the *passive* partner.

The "catcher" is seen as feminized, the "pitcher" is seen as more masculine. Hence the prison terms "Jocker" and "Punk". Note that prison jokes usually revolve around "dropping the soap" or having one's "salad tossed"... the vast majority of men are terrified, in a sexual sense, of being sexually 'used' like women.

Note that those who dislike gay folks say "If one hit on me, I'd bust his face!" or words to that effect. They really focus on the idea of the gay male approaching them or acting sexually aggressive toward them. Even the terms "Fuck you!" or "Man, he's so fucked!" Reflect that bias. If the receptor is seen as female or feminized, he is seen as "less" or weaker.

It's based in a fear or rejection of the female aspect of humanity. Ort a need to see to it that females remain passive and dominated.

The fact that the prisoners are dominated by women in the abuse pix is partly because they want to humiliate the Islamic mindset of the prsioners, where misogyny is writ large, and partly because the male soldiers don't necessarily *want* to show themselves *noticing* (much less pointing at!) other mens genitalia.

just my $0.02

309

[taxidriver]

3. i'm pretty sure...

one of the biggest insults for guys is still F*ggot, and people call things they don't like 'gay'. as in "that's the gayest thing i've ever seen".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. So does that MAKE it shameful?

Or are the people who do it the problem maybe?

[Scooter24]

29. When someone calls me a Fa*got...

I just turn to them, wink, slightly smile and say "you have noooo idea"

But truthfully, insults have never really bothered me.

[outinforce]

34. And I Say,

"Why, thank you".

And, depending upon the circumstance, I might say something like, "I bet I have lots more fun than you!"

[TahitiNut]

36. Yeah, I'm inclined to say "Eat your heart out."

:silly:

[Touchdown]

38. I always say: "How bad do you want to find out?"

:evilgrin: Shuts 'em up every time.

[Puglover]

46. Not me, I use the old line

I'm NO faggot....my boyfriend is!

[Kholst]

5. not in my view, but...

It is to many, both in this country and probably more so in Iraq.

Regardless of that, it is humiliating to do something sexual against your will, and perhaps more so to be forced to do something so against your own sexuality.

[Change has come]

6. Homosexuality isn't shameful...

If you're gay. It's humiliating to those that are not gay. And it's torture to be forced to perform humiliating acts under threat of violence.

[BiggJawn]

7. No, you wanna know what IS "shameful"?

Being in a "committed Relationship" and you're both so stressed out over Bush and current events that neither one of you feels much like fucking...

[Lisa0825]

8. I'm not real sure how to answer your question, but I'll try...

First of all, it is NOT shameful for either gender, in my opinion. However, shame is an individual feeling. It depends on how the individual feels about the subject. Considering how much of our country is either sexually repressed, religious fundamentalist, or intolerant/homophobic for other reasons, it's easy to see that a large chunk of our society would personally feel ashamed. Everyone knows that the roots of homophobia are in homosexual feelings that people feel conflicted about, because of being raised in intolerance. so, when a homophobic jerk wants to humiliate someone, what better way than to use what he (mostly men) feels most ashamed of?


Anyway, that's just some thoughts on the matter. But personally, no, it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just one aspect of a person, and it has nothing to do with good or bad, or right or wrong.

[Az]

10. Social cues and expectations

The discomfort with homosexuality comes from the binary nature of gender relations during childhood. Most people are not exposed to the idea of homosexuality in their early life. Thus everyone falls into male or female.

As we grow we establish behaviou patterns in greeting others dependent on our gender association. Males in particular have bonding habits that can be quite detailed.

In addition to this socializing pattern there is also the social expectation of men to be aggressive and women to be compassionate.

Once we grow into adulthood the awareness of others exhibiting different behaviour patterns comes to our attention. Because there is an unfamiliarity with how to bond with such people there can be a bit of stress in dealing with these differences.

There is a further social reinforcement focused on males. Because of the social expectation of aggressiveness on the part of males the idea of them being passionate towards each other is disconcerting. It is much more within the expectations of social rigors for women to be passionate including towards each other. But men acting out of character in this way can jar the expectation.

It is into this malestrom of social pressures that homosexuality is seen as an effective means of humiliating males comes into play.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

12. I guess that would depend . . .

. . . on whether or not the individual homosexual feels ashamed!

I wouldn't recommend such feelings.

[Dark]

14. Yes, it is shameful.

But it shouldn't be. Most heterosexual men who find it shameful (and subsequently insult homosexuals) are very insecure about their own sexuality.

[0rganism]

15. You can't really compare this to the prison torture

Forced heterosexuality would have been shameful for these people, too. Indeed, there is footage of the rape of both male and female prisoners, mentioned in the Taguba report.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. No being homosexual isn't shameful. But to the rapist being raped is

and that's what it's all about...including in the Stanford Experiment. We weren't watching "love making" in the prison pics. Dominating someone is humiliating to them. That's what it's all about.

[Terran]

43. Thank you

I was wondering when someone would state the point here. Homosexuality isn't shameful; even people who dislike homesexuals aren't "shamed" by homosexuality. What causes shame is the loss of personal power that comes with having sexuality forced upon you in an unwanted way. I daresay plenty of women who are raped by men feel shame, even though there's no rational reason for it. Likewise there is no rational reason for homosexual rape (which is in effect what happened here) to cause shame, but it of course still does. No one wants sex forced upon them.

I think that Arab men, in particular because of their culture, would be especially harmed by this kind of conduct.

[FDRrocks]

18. No...

Not at all.

[IronLionZion]

19. This is a bad poll

Of course its not shameful for people to be gay.

But if forced to have gay sex on camera then duh its very shameful! I'd rather be killed, seriously. If I was in the fucking Abu Graib prison, I would have cracked right away and gave them any info they wanted.

[foreigncorrespondent]

23. Wait a minute!

But if forced to have gay sex on camera then duh its very shameful!

What they did in those pictures is NOT gay love making. Just because the word sodomy is used doesn't mean it is gay sex. Sheesh you just fell into the trap of equating the torture with being gay. Well done!

[IronLionZion]

35. wait two minutes

then re-read the original post.

It talks about the Stanford study, the Iraqi prison abuse, and if being homosexual is shameful.

[foreigncorrespondent]

49. Um!

You had better go back and re-read my reply to yours, because I was actually quoting YOU and not the article.

[foreigncorrespondent]

20. Absolutely not!

What IS shameful is people who equate this kind of torture with having anything to do with being gay, period!

[charlie]

21. No

But if you're a homosexual Republican, you're worthy of the hairy eyeball.

[charliebrown]

24. Regardless of how many here seem to feel Morals are bad.

I am sorry and flame away if you want. Homosexual, Heterosexual, Religious, non-religious. Persons with Morals, male or female, forced sex can be a humiliation.

Do you really think the day and age should define right and wrong?

I think right and wrong should define itself and that seems pretty self-evident.

Even if you are GAY would you like it being forced on you? Would you be ok with it cause someone who you dont know is made to put his shlong in your ass? The whole premise of this poll is repulsive and if you dont see that then you need to go and rethink.

Just my opinion.

[Rowdyboy]

25. Well, I spent a majority of my life being ashamed...

I hid, lied, covered, pretended, dated a couple of straight girls but none of it worked. Mostly, I just chased (and occasionally caught) straight guys...

Telling my mom was most important to me. When she accepted me, I no longer could feel ashamed. The fact that she came to adore my partner and loved him more than either of her sons-in-law was just icing on the cake...

[Touchdown]

41. Damn you!

You're already taken! ;-)

[Rowdyboy]

47. You're way too sweet!

Yeah, I've been "spoken for" for over 15 years now. Nothing in the world compares!

[OldEurope]

26. Being homosexual is not shameful. Being raped is. Do you

think, it´s possible to rape a man in a heterosexual way? I don´t think so.

[Outvoicer]

30. umm....

they may be extremely rare, but there are indeed cases of stronger women raping weaker men.

I'd say that's rape "in a heterosexual way."

[scottxyz]

27. The 3 world sky-god religions say it is - Bruce Bagemihl says it isn't

I'll take the PhD's opinion over the priest's any day.

But then again, I'm neither Muslim, Jewish nor Christian.

Homosexuality and homophobia are probably the key levers which modern Churches and States use to coerce men into Religions and Armies.

Skull and Bones uses ritual homosexuality in its initiations. Think of what kind of blackmail-bond THAT must create among the boys - especially ones who go on to become born-again.

[Scooter24]

28. It's far from shameful..It's fabulous..

Plus, hot chicks dig us...lol

[dsc]

31. My point here was that we mouth the words all the time

but in actions we show a different story. There were by all accounts women prisoners they could have used to humiliate those men had they so chosen. Yet, intead they chose to use men. I am unsurprised by the results of the poll here but I am equally unsurprised by the fact that when push comes to shove it is still the thought of being gay which is percieved as the worst thing they could come up with to do to those prisoners short of physical violence (which they later did anyway).

[Skittles]

32. only to homophobic conservative assholes

you are among friends here, dsc.

[outinforce]

33. Look at Some Gay Personals Some Time

Look at all of the gay men who announce that they are looking for a partner and who self-describe themselves as "straight acting and straight appearing".

Or look at gay men who say that they are only looing for other gay men who are "straingt acting and appearing".

I'm never quite sure what that means, but I do think it betrays -- within the gay community itself -- a certain self-loathing or shamefulness at the thought of bieng gay.

Just so you know -- I do not think being gay is shameful.

[WoodrowFan]

Only if you're REALLY bad at it..

like being a lesbian who only likes men!! :silly:

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[kiahzero]

39. Let me put it this way:

Assume that X is a homosexual man.

X is forced, against his will, to act out intercourse with a homosexual woman.
X, therefore, is feeling self-concious.
X's feelings of self-conciousness are being observed with sadistic pleasure by onlookers.
In my mind, X would feel "humiliated."

Now, assume that X is a heterosexual man.

X is forced, against his will, to act out intercourse with a heterosexual man.
X, therefore, is feeling self-concious.
X's feelings of self-conciousness are being observed with sadistic pleasure by onlookers.
In my mind, X would feel "humiliated."

So, even though being heterosexual or homosexual is not intrinsically shameful, it becomes humiliating by virtue of the context. Similarly, being naked is not intrinsically humiliating - it becomes so through context.

On Second-Thought Edit: It's quite possible to express this as having nothing to do with the genders and orientations involved - you're being forced to act out sex acts for the pleasure of others.

[drfemoe]

40. Gimme a Frking Break!!

I voted in this poll in good conscience because OF COURSE "being gay" is NOT shameful. THEN I read the posts and context for the poll. (I agree with above poster - Bad Poll.)

My mistake for falling for this trap.

Let's seeeeee.... Is needing SLEEP "shameful"? Is it "shameful" to have human/animal body needs, like food hunger and elimination? Is it "shameful" to care about other humans?

ANYTHING can be used/misused in a perverted way by PERVERTS who want to SHAME other people.

Some people will go to any extreme to feel insulted. They should do a study on THAT.

[derby378]

42. Straight DUer in gay enclave of Dallas

Take a walk around the Cedar Springs/Oak Lawn area and you won't find any folks down there (male or female) who seem ashamed of being gay. Then again, you can say the same thing about Castro Street in San Francisco, Montrose in Houston, etc.

My wife and I were once taken to a gay bar on Cedar Springs by some friends of ours from out of state. One thing I do notice is that a lot of gay men down there, when the weekend hits, tend to dress in certain clothes and styles that have me pegged as a metro if they were found on me. As it was, I was wandering the halls of this bar in a Guinness T-shirt, blue jeans, and suspenders. Comparing myself to the guys who frequented that place, I didn't look like a patron - I looked like the token straight bouncer.

BTW, our friends had a spat amongst themselves, so I went looking for one of them while Ginny searched for his partner. Long story short, they reconciled, were happy we tried to help out, and kissed us goodnight. Hey, no big whoop.

Having said this, I think "shame" is a regional thing for the most part. If you're in Oak Lawn, definitely not. If you're in Plano, it might be a little different.


Want to purchase this bumper sticker? Send me a private message!

[Scooter24]

44. Ah..

How do I miss going to the Village Station or JR's...lol

[buddhamama]

45. NO!

n/t

[Teaser]

48. For many straight men, yes...

I don't know why, but there is an outsize fear of being sodomized by many straight man.

I'm straight, I consider myself a gay positive kind of guy, but I will admit that, in my darker moments, the idea of male-on-male anal sex has weirded me out. As an adolescent, this attitude was much stronger, and I've done much to weed it out. But the seeds of the prejudice, I'm afraid they'll always be there. I think many straight men will admit having some residual feelings like this?

Why does this represent a horror for so many men? I don't know. Clearly its connected with an ideal of humiliation. Maybe because sex is something a man "does to" a woman and to be a woman or to "act like" one is degrading to many men.

Don't know the answer. It's a dark corner of the male mind.