What was the tactical advantage of the Burg Killing?

[Must_B_Free]

Forget the rest for now.

What did the terrorists hope to gain?

Certainly they must realize that Bush is limping at this point ahd the war had been judged a failure worldwide.

Are they really that dumb that they thought this would win them any "hearts and minds"?

That's the biggest give away to me. If you are fighting a war for hearts and minds, you lose by doing what they did.

Whoever did this is simply trying to paint Muslims as terrorists and brutal murderers. You don't even have to see it to know that.

[DAGDA56]

1. I see it as an internal power play...

...if you think of AQ as a loose affiliation of local gangs, perhaps one decided to pull itself out of obscurity through a dramatic act. We may not know who these guys were, but I suspect AQ does...now.

[David Dunham]

2. They want to horrify the US public to the point it supports US leaving

That's the same strategy that worked for the fundamentalists against the Russians in Afghanistan.

[Az]

3. There is a very strong sense of vengence equals justice

There are factions within Arab culture that have a very strong tie to the notion that justice must be served in this world. The idea of someone escaping justice is untenable. Each person has a responsibility to seek to right this wrong. Vengence is an permissible means of righting a wrong. In fact it is often the prefered method.

All this makes the situation there all the more intractible. The more we try to impose our particular sense of culture on them the more they will react. When they react they we respond with force. Which they react to with more force. It becomes an endless spiral of death and destruction.

[squidbro]

4. They aren't trying to win hearts and minds

The Muslims were trying to paint this as an indictment of shrub and his administration.

They could care less for the hearts and minds of Americans.

I am in no way condoning what they did. But their position is understandable if one looks at the steady diet of propaganda they are being fed from the likes of Fox News, and the major American news media. They probably think that America is full of brain-dead right-wingers and that the only thing this nation understands is force. They are saying to the likes of O'Reilly, Limbaugh, etc. that they are capable of their own violence in kind.

We really need an alternative voice that shows the Arabs that there really are thinking Americans who truly abhor the torturous activities at the likes of Abu Gharib, Gitmo, etc.

Unfortunately, this will only inflame the right-wingers hatred and increase their vitriol.

I hope that the right-wing does not use the video as an attempt to justify the horrors at Abu Gharib.

Who am I kidding? They will and both sides will become ever more polarized.

It will only get worse.

[Mz Pip]

5. These guys don't play be the rules

Neither do we, it seems but that's besides the point on this one.

This is a culture where there really isn't the foundation of law like we have here. An eye for an eye is about as good as it gets. Prisoner abuse photos or not, they probably would have done this.

We cannot create a democracy when the people there don't want one. They don't have the foundation in law and culture where a democracy can grow. We are swimming upstream trying to change that. The sooner we realize this the better.

MzPip
:dem:

[Az]

6. They don't play by our rules

And that is very much the problem. They have a clearly different idea of what is right and wrong. There was a time in our past where such an act would be considered a standard reaction to attack. Morality changes in societies. What once was understood to simply be the way things were is now considered horrendous. Not all cultures are on the same page morally speaking. And unfortunately it is no easy matter to change a peoples morality.

[Ardee]

27. why do you indict an entire people

for the actions of the very few? Judging al of Islam from the few extreme fundamentalists or condemning all Iraqis for the actions of some who may very well have been Jordanian, Saudi, or perhaps CIA born in Ohio is a rather offhanded form of prejudice.

I would imnagine that those who fight for Iraqi independance consider themselves to be freedom fighters, those like Al Qaeda who seek to install an extreme form of religious rule over the middle east do so with great conviction as well. I do not seek to be an apologist for extremism ,whether foreign or domestic only to put forth a differing view of people and events, one that does not seem so dismissive of so many.

[Az]

33. Indict?

It is a recognised fact that there are differing cultural values in the world. There is a strong cultural history regarding justice within the Arab community. It is percieved that justice must be served. And that if it cannot be expected to be served by an official capacity that one must take personal responsibility for it.

I do not indict. Instead I advise that we must consider the social issues at play in these events. We must understand why some people rejoice at harm brought to us. We must understand how our actions are seen by their culture. And from this understanding we must discern a path to walk in a very complex process.

Failure to recognise a differing social value in a people (whether they comprise the majority or a minority within the population) only leads to blundering around in the dark. We need to work with our intelligence and not our gut reaction. We need to be in posession of as much information of the fators we are dealing with. And this means being able to look at ourselves in the way others see us no matter the discomfort this may bring.

[Ardee]

41. Please make yourself clearer in future

when you post such as this:
"They have a clearly different idea of what is right and wrong. There was a time in our past where such an act would be considered a standard reaction to attack. Morality changes in societies. What once was understood to simply be the way things were is now considered horrendous. Not all cultures are on the same page morally speaking. And unfortunately it is no easy matter to change a peoples morality."

It appears rather clear that you unfavorably compare two cultures, especially when you title your post "They dont play by our rules". The indictment of an entire culture based upon the actions of a relatively few extremists is like judging the American people based upon the actions of the current administration, or more to the point,judging christianity based upon the beliefs of John Ashcroft.

The people of Islam have a long and proud history of living harmoniously with other peoples and other faiths. The oldest Hebrew synagogues extant are in Iraq you might understand, women have served as doctors , politicians and lawyers in muslim societies for decades.

Regardless of the way people dress, worship or speak we all want the same things, for ourselves and our families, and peace is among those things we al have in common. If we are to get past the extremism of bin Laden and Bush then we must perforce find commonality and not carelessly condemn cultures and religions so offhandledly.

Of course there are those who favor extreme measures and amoral actions, both in the middle east and on Capitol Hill but , as thinking people, we must bend every effort to understand that condemning an entire culture or the religious beliefs of a billion or so is a false reaction to such atrocities and leads only to further separation and increasing violence.

[Blue_Chill]

7. Simple: They seek to make worse the situation in Iraq.

You forget that the terrorists don't want peace, and they've shown countless times that they care nothing for their own people. A holy war is the goal and things like this speed them towards that end.

[RapidCreek]

13. The same could be said of Bushco

RC

[rbnyc]

43. Yes.

Amazing how their goals coincide.

[LeahMira]

35. We have seen the enemy...

You forget that the terrorists don't want peace, and they've shown countless times that they care nothing for their own people. A holy war is the goal and things like this speed them towards that end.

If by "holy war" you mean that they want all Western influences out of the Middle East so that a fundamentalist Islamic regime can be established throughout the entire area, then I'd agree. In order to understand how that mindset works you need to take a hard look at the fundamentalist Christian elements in this country that are not interested in compromises or "agreeing to disagree."

Take a look at the Christian fundamentalists, for instance, who insisted that 9/11 was brought on by the anger of the almighty at the adulterers, abortionists and homosexuals in the U.S. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that given the power to do so, these Christian fundamentalists would torture and murder adulterers, abortionists and homosexuals? Is there any doubt that these folks would care one whit how much suffering they brought on the people of this nation so long as they "purified" the country... for Jesus?

The terrorists are a grim warning of what this country can easily become, and who knows but that many Americans would cheer that prospect on.

[tabasco]

8. You could say the same thing about 9-11.

- This is al qaeda, not a group of war college strategists. They are just plain evil religious fundamentalist monsters. They don't give a shit for our hearts and minds and don't really give a damn about Iraq. They want to destroy all infidels.
- Of course, Joe Sixpack here in the States can't differentiate between al qaeda and the Iraqis, thanks to endless brainwashing by the whore media and the Bush cabal. The Berg murder will only increase hate for Iraqis, even though they are not responsible.

[Must_B_Free]

12. I did say the same thing about 911

as a matter of fact.

[LoZoccolo]

9. Oops, didn't really read the question.

Sorry.

[PurityOfEssence]

10. It could be a bunch of things

1) It may be just what it looks like: a revenge killing designed to shock and cause an escalation, which would help the insurgents' cause.

2) An "inconvenient" prisoner was let loose at a really tense time as a method to get rid of him, and it became a much bigger deal than expected.

3) MIHOP mercenaries offing a troublesome renegade in order to enflame Americans' emotions that we're dealing with savages.

Who knows? My instinct is that this helps Bush, because it once again pulls people's attention away from a scandal, but I discount my instincts a bit because I'm such an extreme bigot when it comes to Junior and his Hairy Band. It also smacks of #1 in a big way, and it's much like the dynamic of the four "contractors" being killed in Fallujah. It certainly allows the hawks to say that these are subhumans who're deserving of our unrestrained wrath, and that's already happened.

At heart, I'm still to naive and optomistic to believe #3, but #2 certainly doesn't seem out of order. This might be a mini-replay of 9-11 (of which I'm LIHOP-lite) with an opening allowed to known, conniving enemies, that then blows into something that's much more helpful than expected.

From a purely innocent standpoint, he may just have been viewed as a nuisance and let loose when they were sick of him, but with no specific hopes on their part for his demise. He may have just been an unfortunate victim of a momentary escalation in tension, and been handy for nasty hooded rotters when the scandal broke.

We may never know, but as always when there's little information, our prejudices show. Racists and Righties will rage that they're all subhuman and should be savaged, and lefties will see the dark shadow of clandestine operations. The soldiers will see both of those points of view, and also have the fear of knowing that things are going to get even scarier for them.

As for me, I just see the net effect as a further force of escalation, causing the enmity to grow.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. It does a nice job of providing

a pretext for not releasing any more photos/vids of torture.

Why had Berg spent 13 days being interrogated by American authorities just before he disappeared?

[PurityOfEssence]

18. hadn't thought of that one...

Yes, it's handy all around, isn't it? Somehow it itches at me that it's just too hot a potato to bake up deliberately, especially since even if it's what it's touted to be it's a result of our out-of-control actions. Yet, when I hear Inhoffe and other primitives slag "those people" with such casual ease, I know that it will play well to dehumanize the enemy and stiffen our communal resolve.

Deep inside the neo-con's proto-soul, it wants to have us all know that everyone's out to destroy us, then it'll be easier for us to keep each other in lockstep and help to slake their ravenous hunger for world domination.

[CWebster]

24. And why was he wearing an orange jumpsuit?

???????????

[salin]

31. doesn't look like a prison jump suit, to me

flowing and loose fitting in the upper body - with a satiny sheen.

Looked like a robe.

My guess would be that the color was chosen specifically to look like what prisoners are suited in, in Gitmo (haven't see the orange suits so much in IRaq - but in the iraq pics we aren't seeing much of the clothes) and other places. Sort of a psyche tie in... as in "he is our prisoner of war... and this is what we do to prisoners of war..."

[CWebster]

39. It is discribed as "an orange jumpsuit"

in every account.

[bemildred]

11. Why did we plaster Saddam's two kids all over the News?

The reason is the same.

[Jacobin]

14. How bout plain old revenge?

You tortured and humiliated and beat up our folks----on film.

We can do the same.

[Mike Niendorff]

15. that depends on what they wanted.

Why do so many people here presume that these killers want peace?

The people that did this want escalation, folks, not peace.


MDN

[BillZBubb]

17. Maybe it wasn't done for tactical advantage?

We've got a situation with fanatics on both sides making all the decisions. If you sit back and evaluate what's going on, it's pretty clear no rational person would do what BushCo has done or what the Berg murderers did.

Not one prediction by Bush* and his stooges has come to pass after they took an action in Iraq. I'll bet the outcome from this murder will also have unpredicted consequences.

[Aidoneus]

19. Shock value, I guess

There was a very stinging message delivered. They first tried to liberate prisoners from the Abu Ghurayb concentration camp, but when that was refused..

[hang a left]

20. But why this kid? He wasn't military.

They have that American soldier still being held hostage, that would have been far more dramatic. When he was stating the names of his family, he could have stated his name, rank, and serial number. That KBR contractor was supposedly let go by his captors. What about the other hostages from other countries, those countries are actively negotiating for their release.

Why this kid?

[Guy_Montag]

23. There are lots of different groups,

each with different agendas. It's unlikely that this particular crowd are the ones that have or have had other hostages.

Incidently, he would have been killed even if the pics hadn't come out. There would have been another excuse.

[salin]

28. who is "they"? many groups may be taking hostages

it is not given that if a US soldier is held, that this same group who slay Bert is also holding the US Soldier.

I would guess that it was a brutal killing of convenience aimed at building momentum among those already resisting, and trying to build support among those who are sitting on the fence by taking advantage of the current disgust/outrage through a "see - we can get revenge... we work for you" ... very frightening and strategic development.

I think it has little to do with the strategy for "beating the US" (it won't - as seen in Fallujah these types of actions result in stepped up actions against civilian areas) - and instead is intended to build their own power/support base on the ground. This is especially true if the murderers are not Iraqi but foreign Al Qeada.

Btw, that was always my sense about the 9-11 attacks - that it was about unifying and growing power by creating a symbolic (and tragic) hit on an external perceived enemy... even to the point of drawing the enemy into conflict so that one could create a mass "us... them" conflict. In this view - the messianic leader(s) of Al Qeada first believe they can "unite" the arab and Muslim world ... under them, of course, and then they turn the leashes on their own world to take power (as they had previously done with the Taliban in Afghanistan). Never underestimate the purposes of those with messianic vision ... always multidimensional - and often designed to amass greater power support by increasing the number of followers.

[Vladimir]

21. Very debatable

First of all, lets assume Nick Berg was killed by insurgents. In this case, I do not believe that the aim is to win 'hearts and minds', at least not in the West. The aim, in my opinion, is revenge for Abu-Ghraib. The video-tape amounts to saying : 'You fuck with us, we will fuck with you back'. I also think it was noted after the massacre in Fallujah that the resulting crackdown has done more to swing domestic opinion against the invasion than any amount of talking could have done. The insurgency is no doubt hoping for a heavy handed crackdown, and a further shift in opinion in their favour.

[Wilber_Stool]

22. What I think they arew saying is,

We're prepared to die for our country. Are YOU prepared to die for OUR country?

[Frederic Bastiat]

25. It a fundie recruitment video n/t

[salin]

29. more concisely said

but the crux of my point in an earlier post. Trying to amass their own power. Get a foothold with locals (if indeed these were foreign al qeada, as they appear to have been).

[stickdog]

26. The only tactical benefit is to BushCo.

But, of course, BushCo would never even contemplate such a thing, while subhuman terra'ists simply like war and the murder of innocents.

Makes perfect sense, right, Christian soldiers?

[CWebster]

30. You mean like when Chalibi's thugs and the US military

pulled down the statue of Saddam--celebrated and often portrayed as an iconic moment of liberation in the US media?

Chalibi's thugs working in concert with the US to shape US perceptions....


That would be my guess.

[RobinA]

32. No, They Aren't "Dumb"

They don't understand us any better than we understand them. They are going for hearts and minds. They think that we are squeamish about horror and this will shock us out of the war. Of course, they are wrong in the short run.

This has to be the dumbest bit of propaganda to come along in a long time. Right when every news outlet in the US is howling in outrage at our treatment of Iraqi prisoners, including many pro-war conservatives, Presidents are apologizing, Secretaries of Defense are embattled, they pull a stunt like this, which drives the torture right off the front page and feeds red meat to the "Arabs are murdering heathens" camp.

Our actions over there provide recruiting posters for al-Qaeda, while their actions fan the pro-war, anti-Arab fires over here. It's positively Shakespearean.

[dpibel]

42. Odd, isn't it?

We have the mighty and evil Al Qaeda, which pulls off the greatest terrorist event (excluding state terror) in the history of the world. And they can't even figure their way out of this particular wet paper bag. I mean, here they are, just boppin' along bombing and jetting to great effect, and, suddenly, they can't scope this pretty elementary situation. Who'da thunk?

[leesa]

34. It's more of a gain for the Bush Crime Family. Conveniently timed

to "justify" abuse at the prison. All of these "terrorist" activities are excellently timed for the benefit of Bush.

[IrateCitizen]

36. They hope to gain more justification for insurgency -- and they will

What do you honestly think that the Bush Administration's response will be to this inhumane atrocity? It will be to respond the only way they know how -- with blunt military force.

Many of the insurgents will surely be killed/maimed/imprisoned. Perhaps even some of the twisted pieces of "humanity" that perpetrated the beheading will be killed as well. But so will countless innocent Iraqis caught in the crossfire. This will, in turn, inflame their passions against the occupiers -- as the reasoning is that these things would never happen if the occupiers weren't there.

For a group that glorifies violence and revenge, this is a sound strategy, because it will undoubtedly work. The real sadness in all of this is, through, that it will only further entrench the cycle of violence, ensuring that when we do ultimately pack up and leave (it's not a question of if, but rather of when) that the forces adopting violence and terror on the Iraqi side will be empowered to the point that violence and terror will be ingrained into whatever kind of government springs up in the aftermath.

[paulk]

40. this seems obvious, doesn't it?

It's a classic guerrilla tactic - to invite reprisals and further inflame an insurgency. Especially now with the situation in Fallujah calming a bit and (at least) negotiations happening between Sadr and the Coalition. There's a real possibility that the recent violence could abate -

How BushCo handles this will show how seriously interested in "peace" they are. I'm not optimistic.

[MetaTrope]

37. Showing death to a nation that kills en masse from a distance

At the push of a button.

Let's see if America learns this lesson.

[DU GrovelBot]

38. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v2.0
==================
 
The time now is 9:55:11AM EDT, Wednesday, May 12, 2004.
 
There are exactly...
4 days,
14 hours,
4 minutes, and
49 seconds left in our fund drive.
 
This website could not survive without your generosity. Member donations 
pay for more than 84% of the Democratic Underground budget. Don't let
GrovelBot become the next victim of the Bush economy. Bzzzt.
 
Please take a moment to donate to DU right now. Thank you for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.