Why do so many accept conspiracy theories about Al Queda

[Walt Starr]

with no evidence to support the theories presented? Case in point, Nick Berg is murdered and immediately everybody accepts the presented conspiracy theory that the murderers were Al Queda, yet there is no supporting evidence for this theory other than hooded men claiming to be Al-Queda on a video. Until there is corroborating evidence to support the claim, what you have is a conspiracy theory.

Just asking.

[LincolnMcGrath]

1. Saddama Bin Laden!

Huntin' em down, smokin' em out.

Aluminum tubes!
Trailers of Mass Water Purification!
Hate us for our Freedoms!
Blame the Clenis!

[leftofthedial]

2. same is true of 9-11

there has been no serious inquiry into who really did 9-11.

[Sandpiper]

3. People are naturally inclined

To first believe in something that makes them feel justified in their biases.

[rumguy]

4. it was posted on a website AQ uses to get out their stuff

you thinking it's CIA is way way more out there than thinking it's AQ...

you have no bizness lecturing us about conspiracy theories!

[Old and In the Way]

8. Seems rather odd that, in our war on terror, we'd allow an

Al Qaeda website to spread their propaganda, don't you think?

[rumguy]

9. it's not just an AQ web site

and it's in another country

[Skip Intro]

13. "and its in another country" - ?

Either they're with us or against us.

And if they won't stop aq communications - they're not that mysterious if people know where to look on the web for their latest statement - then I am sure gwb could make it so, one way or another.

The fact that its another country matters not, in this WOT.

[rumguy]

14. I give up

[Old and In the Way]

18. What's to give up?

My only point is, the web is an effective communication tool. Seems to me that it is in the world's interests to fight Al-Qaeda and one way is to take down their platform to communicate. That's a pretty easy task....remove their DNS# number and it's kaput. With the billions we spend on the WOT, one of the effective ways we could fight this propaganda war would be to remove their sites. Now, I'm not promoting censorship, but if this is a "known" Al Qaeda site, I'd think this administration would be going after this site and any others that are in existence. It is a war, after-all.

Unless, of course...... :-)

[Walt Starr]

15. Ahhhh, okay. By that standard

I suppose each and everything posted on DemocraticUnderground is official Democratic Party doctrine. :eyes:

FACT: The Berg murder WAS a CONSPIRACY. Five men participated, we have video to prove it. That, by definition, is a conspiracy.

UNKNOWN: The identities of the murderers. If there are additional conspirators off camera, and the veracity of the claims made by the murderers on camera.

Given the facts and the unknowns, the theory that the murderers are Al-Queda is as plausible the theory the murderers are CIA operatives. In the absence of evidence, all we have are theories.

[Aidoneus]

31. Are you familiar with the website?

Or are you just repeating what somebody else said?

[frylock]

33. you thinking it's CIA is way way more out there than thinking it's AQ

never mind that al-Queda was a creation of the CIA!! Thanks for the recommended daily allowance of irony. :eyes:

[stickdog]

34. Really?

What's the website?

How long have you been monitoring it?

Who runs it?

Who posts on it?

What do they post there?

What do non-Western experts think about it?

[AlCzervik]

5. because many people

like to leave the thinking to someone else.

[Skip Intro]

6. Balloons popping

I've never understood how the same person could rightly ridicule the obvious lies of the bush regime when it comes to wmd or the budget, yet insist with all their might that something is true because "sources" say so. Who told us who the "beheadders" are? Pentagon officials?

And doesn't rumsfeld still operate a media disinfo. program, despite the fact it was claimed it would close after its discover, of course. Is it really too outlandish that we have some undercover link to some Islamic media - who would air this?

Wait, where did this tape actually come from, anyway?! "found" on a web-site????

And how many people have thought - "well, if those are the kinds of people we're fighting, maybe that tourture was justified after all..."

And some here have no doubt.

[Old and In the Way]

7. It's a speculation theory

Since it could be any number of groups and possible motives. Pick your favorite.

I'll bet we "capture" the perps, though...

[Walt Starr]

11. To be honest, I HOPE it's Al Queda

I just don't know if I could handle it really turning out to be members of Bushco. It would just disgust me so much to find out people who are a part of American culture could actually perform such an act.

That said, I would not be surprised if Bushco, in fact, had something to do with it. That's how sick and depraved our nation may have become.

[scarletwoman]

23. *ahem* And what exactly IS "Al Qaeda"?

Who funds them? Who do they REALLY work for?

Why is it that everytime things get rough for bushco, "Al Qaeda" conveniently pops up? What about how the boogeyman "Osama" (who was declared "probably dead" at least a year or so ago) pops out another audio tape at critical junctures so that everyone can fall in line for the obligatory minute of hate?

What about those pesky ISI (progeny of the CIA) connections, like the ISI officer who wired all that money to Atta? The Bush/Bin Laden family connections? The whole Saudi/banking/oil biz/Bush complex?

You start digging beneath the surface, and there's some really intriguing tangles of interconnections to consider. Who REALLY pulls the strings behind the operation? There's some really deep shit going on here, without a doubt, imho...

sw

[Snoggera]

10. The Boogey Man in the closet

for this administration, is vastly more able to advance an agenda than a Boogey Man sitting in the living room having a cup of coffee with the rest of the family.

[PragMantisT]

12. And amazing how the beheading was allegedly perpetrated by

Zawahiri, the terrorist with the household name. I guess al-Sadr had an alibi.

[EV1Ltimm]

16. it's not al qaeda's style...

they do things on a far more larger scale than making some snuff film and then passing it on to a website IMHO. they attack symbollically, not individually. what would be the symbolism behind killing berg? An american at the wrong place at the wrong time killed in retalliation for iraq prisoners being mistreated? On the surface it seems feasible, but al qaeda does things for (what they consider) a greater cause than human rights. they want the israelis out of palestine, the americans out of iraq, afghanistan and saudi arabia. i'm sure the list is far longer than that.

i believe that al qaeda realizes that it is far more effective when it's not tangible, but a dark, shadowy presence. what these people did in the video was assign a face to al qaeda, which seems to be the opposite of what al qaeda, IMHO, is wanting to do.

[Bombtrack]

21. Pakistani Jihadists did almost the exact same thing with Daniel Pearl

.

[Old and In the Way]

25. 5 potential groups, target audience, motives

GROUP TARGET AUDIENCE MOTIVE

Iraqi Nationals Iraq/US Revenge/"shock and awe"
Iraqi murderers none they like killing
Al Qaeda ME/US Recruit/"shock and awe"
US Psych-Ops US Deflect focus/re-energize
Israeli Psych-Ops ME/US Keep the war going


War is very big business....lots of potential groups and motives. I'm not sure there's anywhere enough evidence to pin this on any group yet.

[Bombtrack]

17. Because Al Queda and Jihadists in general have a track record of

being the type of sick crazy bastards who would not hesitate to manually behead a jewish electrician from Pennsylvania, which is hell of alot more plausable than the alternative you people INSTANTLY were believing, that the CIA did it. You would be hard pressed to find six CIA agents who would participate in doing something like this with such an ambiguous and really nonexistent US interest. 99 percent of people in our CIA are super smart, patriotic, compassionate people. And just because that agency has been used by different people in the past for somewhat ruthless idiotic and reckless acts IN THE NAME OF A CLEAR US INTEREST, it is just really a reach to see one hear unless you're blinded by a determination for that proof

[Walt Starr]

19. I've met some sick crazy bastards in my life

Based upon my memories of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, it's plausible the CIA could do something like this. I would like to think we grew out of that crap in the 70's, but it's just as plausible that Islamicists did it.

[Bombtrack]

22. George Tenet is no Henry Kissenger. He's never shown any interest

in a Kissenger like secret war. He's a working heritage class guy who was appointed by CLinton

The CIA didn't just up and decide to commit war crimes by themselves. They did it because Kissenger was running the war out of the state department.

[stickdog]

35. Yes, Goldstein is purely evil, and Big Brother is purely good.

It's that simple, right, Bombtrack?

When 9/11 happened, you just knew it had to Bin Laden, didn't you?

And now that "all the evidence" is in, you've been proven right. Right?

[fishnfla]

20. Here's a question for you.

Disclaimer: for the sake of argument only. HYPOTHETICAL

Who says Nick Berg was an not angel? What if, and it is a total if, because I have NO IDEA, but just what if, he was a drug runner, or a cannibal, or a child molester, or a necrophiliac? War Zones are lawless places, after all, he could get away with some of that stuff if he wanted

Would anyone believe that theory, if there was NO PROOF?

[Walt Starr]

24. I wouldn't believe it

and currently, I'm making nothing but speculations as to who it was who murdered Berg. Based upon the video, I'm relatively certain it was not Al Queda. I'm open to any additional evidence to support the conspiracy theory that Al Queda murdered him, however.

I see no evidence forthcoming.

[fishnfla]

26. your "relatively certain" without any evidence

does not compute.

[Walt Starr]

27. Well, do me a favor

We know Al Queda was responsible for the Daniel Pearl murder and even have the murderer in custody.

Compare that video to this one. You may see why I'm relatively certain Al Queda had nothing to do with this murder, unless it's possible a bunch of local pissed off Iraqis decided to be "Al Queda" on some sort of whim.

Seriously, watch both videos. I have. Have you?

[stickdog]

36. It's bullshit. There are two primary suspects here. Us & Them.

You say it must be Them without requiring a shred of evidence.

I say, when you are trying to figure out the most likely suspect, ask yourself, "who benefits?"

Ask yourself, "why the orange jumpsuit?"

Ask yourself, "why the fat white terra'ists?"

Ask yourself, "why the least military/defense target possible?"

Ask yourself, "why did his parents have to sue to have him released from US prison?"

Ask yourself, "why did the terra'ist leader in the video have to be replaced with a stand in?"

Ask yourself, "why is today the first day any terrorists have ever put an execution up on their website?"

Ask yourself, "who decided this was authentic and how did it become huge BREAKING NEWS within hours of its release?"

It's not a sin to ask legitimate questions. Is it?

[Blue_Chill]

28. Because the evil media said so.

You know it's getting to the point where debating with some here involves the exact same things as debating with a freeper.

The media is bad.
It's all their fault.
They are all out to get you.

How f*cking pathetic.

[Walt Starr]

29. Appeal to authority

Fallacy.

[Blue_Chill]

30. Sadly it's true.

I debate freepers all day on some stupid redskins fan site and when I come here I'm basically writing the same crap only I'm supposed to be debating the opposite side.

Neither side cares for anyone. It's all must win politics and the world and every person in it be damned.

[Walt Starr]

43. Now you;re pulling a bait and switch

Come up with a logical argument and this can continue. Continue fallacious arguments and I'll continue to point out the fallacies.

[paulk]

32. If al Queda's objective is to destabilize Iraq

by goading BushCo into retaliating for this atrocity - that makes just as much sense as the conspiracy theories being floated around tonight.

More sense, even.

[stickdog]

39. That makes NO SENSE.

Face it.

Who benefits most from this? BushCo benefits most from this.

Therefore, sans evidence, BushCo should be the initial primary suspect.

Unless you don't think they are capable of such a thing, I suppose ...

[Tansy_Gold]

41. Wait a minute -- in what way do the bushies benefit?

You're leaping to the assumption that Berg's murder will guarantee that the public will move on from the prison abuse scandal, that * and Rummy and their flying monkeys will once gain be in the public's good graces, that congress will approve $25-50 billion more for KBR and Bechtel and Halliburton and whoever the security contractors are.

That hasn't happened yet. It may not. And that's one of the things a few of us have been pointing out-- just because this happened doesn't mean the results are necessarily going to be what the bushies want. That *may* indeed happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

The perceived result does not constitute proof. Just because someone inherits a fortune doesn't mean they killed the rich uncle.

Nor do the speculations of a few DUers based on analysis of a few still frams from a grainy video constitute proof. Anyone can say they think the guys in the video look like they aren't Arabs because they have Western mannerisms or they're too fat or they wear sneakers. Is this speculation now the equivalent of proof? Is anyone really aware of how absurd that is?

Those of us who are rejecting the absolute veracity of the theory that the CIA killed Nick Berg are doing so because no concrete evidence has been presented. I don't see anyone rejecting the possibility of such a theory -- we just aren't taking it on face value. Neither, however, are we accepting blindly the "establishment" version. And I hope everyone will forgive the use of "we." At the moment, however, the establishment version seems a little more plausible and has better evidence to back it up, in our estimation.

I think what got to at least some of us was the apparent refusal of some of the conspiracy theorists to accept even the possibility that their "evidence" had been debunked. The orange jumpsuit, for instance, or the "white skin." It didn't seem to make any difference how many people chimed in with "Arabs can have light skin"; the theorists persisted in chorusing "They have light skin, therefore they must be American CIA agents!" (Wouldn't one think that if the CIA were doing this, they'd get agents who had dark skin to match the stereotypical Arab image? Oh, no, never mind.)

But what happens to all the theories if this backfires on the bushies? What happens if the beheading of Berg serves to encourage the insurgents and arouse the anti-war sentiments at home? I'm not saying it will happen, but it could. Some commentators may speak out and suggest that Berg's death is the result of the U.S. going into Iraq with too little knowledge of local tradition and culture, of going in there and upsetting the culture beyond repair, and now Berg is part of the payback. Anti-war sentiment could rise.

I think that as evil as we all see the bushies to be, we have to give them credit for some brains, even if their figurehead hasn't got many. They could have survived the abuse scandal, could have drummed up enough support and weathered it. I don't think they wanted to take the enormous risk that staging the murder of an American would entail.

But I could be wrong.

Or I could just be

Tansy Gold

[dkf]

44. It has to do with the moral high ground.

Our torture scandal pretty much collapsed the high ground. Now we're fighting for who is slightly more moral than the other dirtbag.

[stickdog]

47. Turn on the news.

Oh, this was Rove's wet dream alright.

[paulk]

42. How does Bush benefit?

:shrug:

His great war on terror now has AlQueda operating openly in Iraq... that would seem to be a failure of his policies. Maybe it will solidify his rabid base; the one's who will be calling for nukes in Baghdad, but the prison scandal is not going away and if Dimson overreacts, (which he probably will, considering Fallujah), he will add fuel to the fire of a growing insurgency. A fire that will cost him re-election and bring chaos to Iraq.

Who benefits from chaos in Iraq? Not Bush.

[stickdog]

48. This story simply superceded the worst scandal of the administration,

allowed freeps to demonize the media for publicizing abuses, and gave BushCo a new TWO MINUTES OF PAN ISLAMIC HATE.

Great that you have so much faith in the long term cognitive processing abilities of your fellow citizens. I'm truly sorry that I find your opinion on this so laughable.

[paulk]

49. I'm truly sorry

that you're truly sorry. Cry for me, Stickdog.

:cry:

[Trajan]

37. Al Qaeda is real ...

Whether they are involved in this act is debatable and highly questionable ...

I think the existence of al Qaeda, and their culpability in numerous acts of violence, can be shown to be well supported, bona fide, a posteriori facts ...

Isnt it safe to say that SOME group of individuals claim to belong to a group who are known as 'al Qaeda'; that they are self professed members of such a group, and that they themselves have declared their own culpability in specific acts of violence that are popularly attributed to that same group ?? ..

While I agree that things are rarely as they appear, and that some events are actually caused by an opposite party of those who are blamed ... while I agree with that: I also know that history is replete with tales of religious extremists, lead by grandiose notions of superiority and twisted by perfectionist theology, who commit egregarious acts of brutality against innocent human beings ....

In the big picture: The existence of al Qaeda is the norm, not the exception ....

One neednt drink the koolaid to see the historical parallels ...

[stickdog]

40. IMHO, al Qaeda = any terrorism sophisticated enough that First World

military/intelligence assets would otherwise be primary suspects.

[DU GrovelBot]

38. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v2.0
==================
 
The time now is 1:08:47AM EDT, Wednesday, May 12, 2004.
 
There are exactly...
4 days,
22 hours,
51 minutes, and
13 seconds left in our fund drive.
 
This website could not survive without your generosity. Member donations 
pay for more than 84% of the Democratic Underground budget. Don't let
GrovelBot become the next victim of the Bush economy. Bzzzt.
 
Please take a moment to donate to DU right now. Thank you for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[Minstrel Boy]

45. Hunter S Thompson: "Everything we know is spun through the CIA"

From an interview last year, alluding to MIHOP, quoted by xymphora:

"I happened to see the second one go in, but just the last few seconds, as it came out of the left, stage left, and then plowed right into the front of the center of the TV picture and the center of the building, uh, perfectly. And I wrote that it was one of the most efficient, uh, most skillful and just about impossible um, acts of piloting . . . That's a very rare, uh, uh pilot . . . can take a big plane and plant it right as if a target or bulls-eye was on the side of the building. Apparently that second plane approached, and veered off, and made sort of a half-loop and then sort of came back and aimed again and then hit the building

...

"It doesn't seem like there was that much skill or that much preparation really. It's pretty broadly assumed that there's is a lot more to that story than the uh, the simple, kind of evil guys who just wanted to learn enough about flying to take a plane off but not land it.

...

"Remember, everything we know about that, that incident, and it was a horrible thing, I mean tragedy! Uh, and about Iraq and about Afghanistan and the people allegedly inside those countries, you know, Bin Laden . . . Everything we know in this country is spun through the CIA or NSA, but lets call it the CIA."

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_xymphora_archive.html#108433394562708856

[DoYouEverWonder]

46. Because we've been right

about everything else so far.

This isn't just another theory hatched out of thin air. Many of us have been watching these bastards for years. And unfortunately, this sort of thing is becoming SOP for them.

Anyone who could sit on their hands on 9-11, while they knew that their own country was under attack, and do nothing until the event is over, is capable of any other dispicable act that you can imagine. Cutting off some guys head for their war on terror is a piece of cake. Especially, since his dad was raising a stink already.