What the HELL is wrong with some of you people?!?

[Paragon]

I can think of nothing more horrifying than what happened on that videotape.

Creating conspiracy theories about said event and posting them on a message board in the name of the Democratic Party doesn't come close, either. But it's still nauseating.

Knock it the fuck off.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. No one's doing anything in the name of the Democratic Party

DU has nothing to do with the political party from which it takes its name and being a member of DU does not make one a Democratic.

Get your facts straight.

Oh, and knock it the fuck off yourself.

:)

[Paragon]

5. Oh, thanks

Who could possibly think there are Democrats on Democratic Underground?

Oh, I know - the right-wing nuts who reprint and rebroadcast it to represent all of us.

[PaDUer]

42. Do you think somone is coming out

of the closet before election nite?

[Cronus Protagonist]

46. Another conspiracy theory?

Bush is a closet case? Or are you referring to Kerry?

[PaDUer]

120. OOppssss....

I responded to the wrong post...It was meant to ask you if you thought they were coming out of the closet, i.e., the poster of the thread. Sorry.

[keithyboy]

85. How do YOU explain the orange jumpsuit?

Just asking.

[Deja Q]

9. Bzzt, WRONG.

Last election period, people promoting the Green party (or, screw it, anyone who didn't support the Dem candidate by speaking up against that Dem candidate or trying to promote a non-Dem) got censured or banned. I can't blame the Admins. They've explained why in the past. More eloquently than I, too.

It's going to be the same with Kerry in '04. And I understand WHY the Admins bring up those rules. This is DEMOCRATIC Underground. Not "Left Wing underground", "Commies 'R Us", or "Home of Sex Threads", this is DEMOCRATIC Underground. as in the Democratic Party. Democrats. DFL. D D D. Not G G G.

Now they do tolerate virtually all who are in the Left ( :yourock: ), but they are Dem and will sock it to those who try to disrupt during key periods. And that's their prerogative and I can't blame them either.

Please get your facts straight and ask the admins if you don't believe me. I doubt they'll lie, though they won't do any name-dropping either and for logical reasons.

[jobycom]

23. No

There is a difference between supporting the Democratic Party's candidate and being part of the Democratic Party.

[Cronus Protagonist]

27. Thanks for 'splaining it better than I did.

I need to learn to cut my word count down.

:)

[Cronus Protagonist]

39. I think you smoked too much today

Or something like that...

We were talking about whether or not members/posters at DU speak on behalf of the Democratic Party - which we do not.

You are talking about something else. Please try to stay on topic.

:)

[Tinoire]

11. Thanks Cronus. n/t

[Deja Q]

2. I spoke in riddles. You spoke it outright.

I'll take your tone next time... :thumbsup:

For reference:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1580885

[Andy_Stephenson]

3. If we had listened to the people who said BBV...no big deal.

and stopped the research...everyone would be using paperfree voting this fall. Not everything is a conspiracy theory...they sometimes become conspiracy fact upon further examination.

[shance]

126. THANK YOU***Its the wild little technicality called the truth.

and/or getting facts out to allow an honest, sane, and courageous conclusion to surface. Insanity,cruelty and tragedy only grows when we choose to turn our heads. And the more we inflict it, the MORE its going to hit us. Look at Germany my friend. And look at the German leaders. Many of the leaders were able to escape, but it was the German people that who reaped the consequences of their leader and the havoc of what was to come after World War II. Many leaders escaped to South America. And Hitler the coward, killed himself.

Mourning and healing are more important AFTER the truth has been uncovered Paragon. Hiding ones head and refusing to admit the potential reality of the situation only promotes insanity in an entire culture. Thats how lethal it is to ignore the truth. PLEASE REMEMBER GERMANY.

I cannot understand what is ocurring with so called *Democrats* trying to shame others into submission. These ones you are shaming are the ones who are at the LEAST brave enough to ask questions and bring the truth to the surface. We need to praise any and ALL Americans, Republican and Democrat for pointing out the truth. However it does not help for you to further divide Democrats because of what could be your refusal to look at some very painful realities. They are no easier for any of us to see them.

With all due respect because I appreciate many of your threads, but tonight I believe it is you who needs to knock it the f*** off Paragon.

[Generator]

4. I can think of many more horrific things

I guess you just have a limited imagination.

Creating conspiracy theories? I would call it questioning what we have been told.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. When one's government is secretive it actually breeds conspiracy theories

Look at how many things have been reported as truth that turned out to be lies. Look at the manner in which this administration has operated keeping secrets even from congressional oversight for months at a time including the prison torture pictures.

I place all this disgust squarely at the feet of the people who are breeding it by operating in secret in a government that is in theory SUPPOSED to shed sunshine on itself.

[Paragon]

17. BS

You have a mind of your own, NSMA - you can distinguish what is real and what is not without resorting to conspiracy theories and government mind control.

Government cover-up and lame-brained conspiracy possibilities are two completely different things. Having an internet connection doesn't give people the right to be irresponsible assholes.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. I have a mind of my own and will reach my own conclusions

but to which theories are you specifically objecting (and I admit I haven't read them all)? To ones indicating our own government might be complicit in this death given the convenient timing? Or are there others...BTW..the reason I am asking is that you are often sarcastic but are rarely outraged and the tone of your opening post is outrage..so I'm not challenging here...but am genuinely interested in knowing since this amount of outrage is uncharacteristic for you given my experience of our exchanges.

[Paragon]

57. Of course the government is complicit in Berg's death

Simple as connecting A to B -- if we weren't in Iraq, he wouldn't be dead.

But when I read speculations on here that I can only assume to be weed-induced - They were white! We're killing our own people! That's Cheney with the knife! - without even bothering to wait for more facts or at least act in a respectful manner, it pisses me off.

[Liberal Veteran]

63. And by drawing attention to it and responding to it so forcefully...

....you undermine your own campaign not to give any creedance to tinfoil hat theories.

A little counterproductive, wouldn't you say?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

131. Fair enough

but with all due respect...even under your scenario connecting A to B...it's Cheney with the knife.

I hear your real concern which is for the family though...moreso than for any political considerations and I think you're correct. It minimizes the horror of his last moments rather than underscoring the brutality we have seemed to continuously unleash.

[Imperialism Inc.]

136. I have to say I agree.

I didn't really want to , but I think that it is a little much of a jump for my liking and given the case a little caution/respect/objectivity should be exercised. But, I imagine that isn't a very popular opinion.

I do, however, think it is very appropriate to mail the media and ask (sanely , non-accusingly) what he was wearing? And, if it is prison clothing, is that normal for him to be released in?

[RapidCreek]

62. Was it a conspiracy theory

When we said Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction?

When we said Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

When we said Iraq was not a immanent threat?

When we said we were going to Iraq to carpet bag for Haliburton and Bechtel?



RC

[Paragon]

91. No.

Those were conspiracies. They have been proven out with fact.

The phrase "conspiracy theory" is used when the facts are conveniently absent.

Preferring facts over no facts, again I urge conspiracy theorists to shut the fuck up. Thank you.

[RapidCreek]

98. They started as theories that conspiracys were afoot

they were proven conspiracies by those who postulated that they were, discussed why, and sought evidence to prove them as such. If folks behaved as you they'd sit and watch Fox...hoping that Hannity would get to the bottom of things.

RC

[Cheswick2.0]

112. AMEN

It amazes me how many people would like us to shut up and question nothing.

[Paragon]

116. Yeah, that's what I'm doing

:eyes:

[AntiCoup2K4]

124. OK, here's a couple facts.

1) Rogue terrorists are unlikely to issue orange prison jumpsuits.

2) It is unusual for Arabs to be 6 feet tall and wear Kevlar vests and tennis shoes.

Does that prove this was a Bush Criminal Empire setup? No.

But it sure as Hell raises serious questions that deserve answers.

[Cronus Protagonist]

122. I'd like a copy of your software filter

So that I can be sure all of my posts conform to your requirements.

/sarcasm

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[ScreamingMeemie]

67. Spot On!

:thumbsup:

I am currently dealing with a bunch of conservatives who are willing to believe that the only reason Nick Berg's father is upset is because he missed his flight. Not because he was detained or that they somehow lost track of him and were unwilling to help his parents locate him. :(

[TahitiNut]

107. Ja. Ubetcha.

Something stinks and it's not lutefisk.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. I can think of something more horrifying....

...acts of torture, rape, murder, and humilation being done in our name by people that representing us.

We have no control over the behavior of the opposition and when they act like barbarians it's appalling, but when OUR OWN PEOPLE act like barbarians it's even more horrifying.

[DrWeird]

8. You can't? I can.

Abu Ghraib.

[freetobegay]

10. So what's your point?

[kaitykaity]

12. This board has nothing to do with the

Democratic Party.

People can say whatever the fuck they want.

Get the fuck over it.

[Blue_Chill]

19. I'm glad someone admitted this baord has nothing to do with the Dems

Because the crap I see here is disgusting and I'm a long time democrat.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cronus Protagonist]

34. Nice one!

That deserves a rim-shot....

:)

[neuvocat]

13. Are you a moderator? Are you with admin?

Unless you are, don't tell people what to say or what not to say.

[jobycom]

14. Question everything, the truth will emerge unscathed

And we do NOT speak for the Democratic Party.

I remember a lot of us taking flack for saying Bush was lying about WMD, too. "Bush wouldn't fake that stuff, he MUST have nuclear weapons." Woodward and Berstein were told that about the Watergate break-in.

There are some questions with the video. Some people are asking. After Abu Graib, after My Lai, after everything, I don't think asking is unAmerican. If there are good explanations, they will come out. If not, I won't be guilty of falling for the next Bush lie without at least questioning it.

[tom_paine]

15. Everyone has the right to say what they think

And quite frankly I am SICK of being afraid of what they will think and what their Party-Loyal Sub-Media will say about us.

No matter what we do...no matter WHAT we say...

The Busheviks will lie about us, say we're unpatriotic, traitorous and perhaps inhuman for good measure. If no one says anything offensive they will fabricate it and attribute it to us, anyway.

With their Geobbels v2.0 multi-facted lie laundry and dissemination organization, they can have 30% (and possibly many more) of the population believe whatever lie they choose to inncoulate them with.

Because of that we have nothing to fear. Like the Jews and the Nazis. No matter what the Jews did to mollify them, no matrer how much they (we) watched our Ps and Qs, the Nazis were going to slur them and eventually come after them when their power was wholly unchecked.

We face an identical situation differing on in the severity, perhaps, of the Final Solution.

In such a situation as we now are in, with perhaps only a short number of years left to even be able to live semblences of our Former Lives as Free People, I reject your line of reasoning.

And EVERY SINGLE DAY the Freepers threaten to murder us or lovingly fantasize about the days when they'll be able to do so without fear of investigation nor prosecution.

Funny how THAT never got publicized...and Poll Freeping, too.

This is exactly the WRONG time to hold back.

[Az]

16. The truth must be stared in the face

If something is put before us that enrages our emotions it may blind us to something else. A skeptics approach is best in situations that would sicken you. Giving in to the emotional pull the images create does the victim a disservice. If (and this is still a big if) this video was created to blind us to the machinations of some party then the victim is best served by finding the truth. If something doesn't seem right we must look into it despite our revulsion of it. To look away may be exactly what is desired by those that did this.

[Abbalon]

18. How

do I put somebody on ignore?

[MoonRiver]

123. See the little snoozing guy to the far right of your name?

Good. Now click that icon on the post of somebody you want to ignore. Walla!! No more aggravation! :D

[markses]

First, I am most certainly NOT a member of the Democratic Party

And I don't fucking plan to be.

That said, I agree with Paragon completely. The conspiracy bullshit on this vile event is despicable, and reduces events to the status of parlor games for closet speculators. A sickening display, to be sure.

[RapidCreek]

83. Why is it despicable?

Give me one good reason.

Why is questioning the strange circumstances surrounding this mans death wrong? I would suggest accepting them without question is wrong. Given this administrations penchant for secrecy....penchant for lying and penchant for hiring the same motherfuckers who lied and cheated during Iran Contra scandal...one in which they depected themselves as heroes for lying and cheating....why is it wrong.

Tell me, in detail.

RC

[mmonk]

Don't look at me

I don't propose any such theories. I also think this will make it harder to get at the truth for people to see what's going on in our government concerning the world.

[KAZ]

20. Where do you get off?

We're down the rabbit hole Paragon.

[Paragon]

26. Obviously, Alice...

...what you ate at the Dinner Party is screwing with your head.

[KAZ]

30. You might be right Paragon...

...but look at this crap from a 4 years ago perspective. It takes my breath away.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

21. I thought it was the Democrat Party?

Are you a democratic?

[markses]

It's the Democratic Party

The "Democrat" Party is rightwing bullshit.

[Cheswick2.0]

118. Listen Mudd

My voter registration card says I am a member of the DEMOCRATIC party. That is the legal name of my party (what does your voter ID card say?). The repugnant party doesn't get to change that simply because some Orwellian asshole in a think tank decided it was a good idea to separate MY PARTY from the idea of democracy.

[turiya]

22. give me a link

where there is a:
(a) theory posted as fact.
(b) stated in the name of the Democratic party.

[stickdog]

28. We think for ourselves. And, yes, in the Kingdom of BushCo this is often

a debilitating condition.

[Paragon]

33. If you're calling conspiracy theory on this one...

...then maybe it's best if someone else does think for you.

Tell Daniel Pearl's widow your theories. See what happens.

[stickdog]

Do you really think it makes Berg's parents happier to blame the bad, bad

brown people for this? After their son was held in US prison with no civil rights for two weeks?

Come on. You assume bad, bad brown terra'ists did this without any backing evidence of any kind.

I'm simply pointing out that there's already a lot of circumstancial evidence that points in another direction. The other times I've put on my tinfoil hat right away are:

1) the Saddam statue photo op
2) every bullshit WMD "find"
3) the Wellstone crash
4) the Bali "Aussie nightclub" bombing

and

5) the crash of Flight 93.

I stand by my record.

[w13rd0]

74. Funny you'd bring up Daniel Pearl...

...considering the circumstances of his death and the unanswered questions pertaining to it. What story was he working on when he was executed again?

[JanMichael]

29. Sorry but you're way off track. This isn't the Democratic Party's anything

I'd also suggest that taking the official story at face-value is extremely naive.

Especially in this day and age.

[quinnox]

31. I agree that it is loony

but it has always been this way at DU when a news event happens (Challenger disaster, 9-11, the Chinese train explosion, you name it there is a conspiracy theory for it) the internet itself seems to breed conspiracies and it is a playground for those with this mindset.

That said, everyone has a right to say what they want on this board, conspiracy theory or whatever.

But I would also defend the right of a response like this thread.

[fishnfla]

32. I tend to agree with you, bro

People are over-reacting,hyper- reaching, and spinning themselves out of credibility.

(and we accuse the other side of distortion)

A little bit of measured patience, and rationality, goes a long way. Wait for the whole accurate truth to come out, and then pound that drum. Too much distortion in the initial confusion distracts from that message, because new facts ALWAYS come out in the 'wait and see'

Being accurate is always better than being bombastic, IMO.

[PaDUer]

56. We're throwing out thoughts

about what's going on since we currently have an administration that shouldn't be there and doesn't give a damn about anyone or democracy and is portraying themselves as christians ONLY to dip into their pocketbooks. Guess you're ready to join them or you've been watching too much "fair and balanced" programs!

[fishnfla]

82. How 'bout them white hands in the video?

How many times did you bring that up today as if it were a fact to prove.....that all muslims are brown skinned?

[PaDUer]

102. No, not all muslims are white skinned..

but muslims don't stand/posture the way those guys did..Don't you find it odd that another horrible act was committed again when something of importance is being exposed from DC. How many diversions have we had since 2000 to hide facts about them, what they're doing, and another way to twist things because he's low in the polls..They can fool people some of the time, but not all the time..And, look how the media's spinning this tonite. Now they want to dump the POW photos from coming out and move onto the war on terror..Sounds like a setup to me!

[RapidCreek]

93. Wait for the whole accurate truth to come out?

When might that be...if people don't insist it be brought out and point out the fallacies in the story as it's been presented?

Do you think the truth would have come out about Diebold if people who allot of your sort, here on DU, castigated as loonies, hadn't postulated that Diebold was crooked, had ulterior motives and then busted their asses to prove it? Do you? How?

The truth doesn't just come out in the wait and see....especially when people are seeking to hide it go unchallenged. You wait and see...others get up off their asses and persue the truth.

RC

[fishnfla]

105. Can I give you an example?

What the heck was Mr Berg doing over there? What the heck happened to him from April 9th until now? Do you not think that now, after all this, we wont find out? There are more unanswered questions, plenty.

Instead of taking the risk of speculating, and being proven wrong, why not just wait, because this is the sort of thing, his tracks, that can be documented, verified and proven. And it may go alot further to proving what we must know than just guessing.

Find the answers to the questions before making accusations, is all I'm saying

[RapidCreek]

113. Why would you find out?

If everyone thought like you? How can you find answers to questions if no one is interested in posing them?

The speculations and hypothesis posed here on this board are no less valid than the unsubstantiated statements of fact that his murder was committed by Muslim extremists by the media....Are they? If so why?

RC

[fishnfla]

128. I'm sorry, I'm not being clear

These things that happened from his last known contact, April 9th. they are facts, they are footprints. They can be and will be found out, especially now what has happened. The guy was not a ghost during that time, his family for one will find out the truth, I hope for them most theyknow the truth . And until we find out, the speculations and the hypothesis are worthless to me.

Now, if we cant find out the truth of what happened during that time then, its OK to speculate.

But i think we will find out more facts, a more accurate story, and then we will be able to make a better judgemnt

[countmyvote4real]

133. Well said.

And I have to ask (not accuse) if a question is the same thing as an accusation? In Ashcroft world it probably is, but I don't subscribe to that type of thinking even if it currently is the law of the land.

We have to question everything these days.

[scarletwoman]

97. "Wait for the whole accurate truth to come out"

Like the "accurate truth" we get about everything else that concerns bushco?

Uh huh...

sw

[Eloriel]

132. The problem is, the "whole, accurate truth" doesn't COME out

except when people do the exact same types of questioning, observing, researching, speculating, and theorizing, etc. as is being done now.

Or do you still buy the official 9-11 story too?

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[Paragon]

38. FU, GrovelBot!!!

I know you were there! I know you beheaded that man!!! You're just a brainwashed product of The Man trying to keep us down!

:silly:

[Liberal Veteran]

36. At least no one on our side equated it with a "frat prank"....

...but yes given the timing of this video and the distraction factor that you seem to be falling voluntarily into (apparently even you are now more outraged with your fellow democrats than sick acts being done in our name to the Iraqi people) and the government's willingness to lie and manipulate the masses, can you really blame people for voicing some skepticism?

[Sandpiper]

37. I speak only for myself

And I could give a flying fuck if you like what I have to say.

[Paragon]

40. Wow...

...sounds like something George W. Bush might say.

[DrWeird]

44. Or you.

Because that's basically the whole point of this thread.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paragon]

49. I speak only for myself.

And I could give a flying fuck if you like what I have to say.

:D

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PaDUer]

59. So true..

rearing it's identity more and more.

[Cronus Protagonist]

43. Free speech rules!

I don't necessarily agree with you, but I do respect your right to say whatever the fuck you want.

[mike1963]

41. Before the Iraq invasion, there were several people saying "WMD in IRAQ"

you will probably remember their names. Now take your dictionary out from under the short table leg and look up "conspiracy."

There is a reason the word exists, it defines an activity that also exists.
That some are imagined or suspected doesn't mean there are not real ones.

edit: typo

[scarletwoman]

48. You're right. People are obviously committing thought crimes here.

Speculating that things may not be what they seem. How heinous!

Thank goodness we have concerned citizens like you to set things right.

DON'T LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

sw

[Paragon]

53. There's honest inquiry into allegations...

...and then there's tonight's posts in GD.

It's not a "thoughtcrime" to have stupid thoughts...but it does make you stupid.

[scarletwoman]

65. So I guess you must be the ranking authority on what constitutes "stupid".

Sorry, I didn't realize you had been formally installed.

sw

[Sandpiper]

70. Stupid is as Stupid does

n/t

[scarletwoman]

86. You mean like endeavoring to set parameters on seeking the truth?

:evilgrin:

sw

[Sandpiper]

90. Something like that

They say that the only stupid question is the one unasked...

sort of like what Paragon is telling everyone to do.

[countmyvote4real]

134. Well, at least there was no crime on your part. eom

[Liberal Veteran]

52. Paragon, read and comprehend...

Given the fact that our government has shown an avid willingness to mislead and misdirect our public and the rather convenient timing of this release to distract from something extremely damaging to our reputation as a nation, can YOU honestly blame people for viewing everything with a skeptical mind?

We have long since passed the time in this country where things could just be taken at face value.

It's perhaps a sad reflection of what we have come to, but it's that same healthy skepticism that may indeed save this country's democracy from fascism.

Do not be so quick to chastise people for having the gall to mistrust things that have convenient timings.

[ronnykmarshall]

54. Ok, ok ...... back off!

Paragon made a point.

Let's not start fighting with each other over this.

You may not agree but don't start attacking.

This murder is horrible. The torture is horrible.

This whole fucking war of Bush's is horrible.

The bottom line is to get that fucker OUT of office. Period.

We don't need to go at each other when we need to unite and get Bush and his warmonger pals OUT of office.

FLAME ON!

[fishnfla]

73. Well ,yeah, Ronny, the kid is dead. Its all there on tape

We cant change that. why do we have to pick up the dirty bloody shirt so irrationally just to prove a political point or an obtuse overdrawn opinion of what may or may not be the truth to draw attention to ourselves and our hatred of the president?

Whoever cut that poor kids head off, did it to inflame emotions. Either way, it works. Pretty goddamned effective, if you allow it to be....

Is that a flame? not meant that way, just a rant

[Cuban_Liberal]

55. DU is conspiracy mad! It's the tinfoil hat capital of America

Makes me wanna HURL, some days! I'm wiyh you, Paragon! :grr:

[Minstrel Boy]

69. Ahead of the curve, is all.

We haven't been talking out our ass today. A lot of significant questions with potentially sinister answers have been gathered.

Look, I'd rather be on the other side of the looking glass myself. But we need the courage to confront uncomfortable facts and their disturbing implications.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

58. "YOUR FREEDOM TO LEAVE"

"All visitors to the Democratic Underground website are here voluntarily. Nobody is forcing you to post on this message board."

[Paragon]

61. Please don't lecture me.

I've been here much longer than you have, and I happen to care what happens to this community of people.

[Sandpiper]

66. So only you get lecture, eh?

Your self righteousness knows no bounds.

[w13rd0]

88. Gee, you obviously weren't around for:

Wellstone death/murder/freak plane accident
Challenger
The crash of that flight in a NY suburb just a few days after 9/11 when the tail "fell off"
Flight 93
the Pentagon debris
PNAC
the Iraq War
the Democratic Primaries
the midterms
...etc...etc...etc...

don't like it? don't click on the threads that offend your sense of what "should be"...

[bloom]

101. I was just letting the DU rules speak.....

I've been around for quite awhile, myself, and have as much right to this place as you do.

[0007]

129. Ah, isn't seniority wonderful - did the cubs lose again today?

I still think there may be something to that fake beheading, 'eh?

[truebrit71]

60. I can think of PLENTY of things more horrifying thank you very much...

..not least of which is blindly swallowing whatever is thrust in front of you without even thinking as to it's authenticity...

Get the fuck over yourself...

[Paragon]

71. You are SO right

If it's between having my head cut off while I'm alive, feeling the blade cut through my throat until my spine is finally severed - and not creating a conspiracy theory out of this...

...I'll take the latter. And so would you, Mr. Sanctimonious.

[Sandpiper]

64. What the HELL is wrong with some of you people?!?

It sure takes a helluva lot of sand to tell people to stop saying things, for the mere fact that YOU ALONE find them objectionable.

Unless someone died and made you admin of DU...GET BENT.

[Trillo]

68. Which is kinder, 1 or 2?

1) A quick severing of the veins and arteries in the neck leading to loss of blood pressure and presumed immediate unconsciousness followed by death.

2) Darkness for days on end without clothes or blanket, being frightened by and chewed on by vicious dogs, sexually humiliating treatment, rape, and the memories that will last for the rest of their lives for those who endured it and lived.

[Paragon]

76. Being that you'd still be alive after #2...

I think that's the winner.

[truebrit71]

115. You have a twisted concept of "winning"...

,

[Paragon]

119. You're right - being dead RULES!

:eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

80. To be honest, I am MUCH more concerned with acts done in our name...

....by our soldiers that are jeopardizing our reputation as a nation and breaking a treaty we signed in good faith than I am the actions of a few thugs that I have no control over.

The heinous acts of the people doing torture in my name reflects on me and my country, the heinous acts of some foreigners I have no control over doesn't reflect on my reputation.

It seems very clear that while both are wrong, I will take the part of serenity to change the things I CAN change and know the difference between that which I can and that which I cannot.

[DemosthenesOfTheWest]

75. I'm a new poster (as you can tell from my number of posts)

I've really liked the DU for the few weeks that I've been here but the conspiracy stuff is nauseating, and forgive me for being so inflammatory, but worse then much the irrational stuff that I see on the conservative sites.

Seeing this makes me want to have nothing to do with you guys. I'm sure I'm a bit shocked by the events and perhaps this is the way others cope, but it is most unhelpful in the extreme. Massive turn off to those who would easily be your friends and powerful fuel for your enemies.

[PaDUer]

79. Don't let the door

hit you in the ass on your way out!

[Tinoire]

95. Good. Stick to the conservative sites in that case

Tired of seeing all these "voices of conservative reason" coming to this site just to bitch about it.

What attracted you to it? The torture scandal?

those who would easily be our friends PLEASE!!

[Pithlet]

99. There is nothing conservative

about his/her post. They could be a conservative disruptor, but not buying into yours or anyone else's theories isn't evidence of that. There is room for people who don't buy into the conspiracy theories. There are probably more of them than you realize, but don't post much because they either really don't care that much about it, or don't feel like being called sheep.

[bhunt70]

103. agreed

[DemosthenesOfTheWest]

109. No, actually a friend refered me here as a place friendly place... .

...for people who were sick of Bush. A good place to fraternize with other liberals. I consider myself considerably to the left of Kerry. My friend failed to warn me, however, about the high level of conspiracy thinking and it caught me off guard. I've only been here about 4 weeks and I haven't really seen it before. In retrospect, course I shouldn't have made a post lecturing the board. I'm not a newbie to message boards and such things always provoke a nasty reaction and are never productive. This evening was an emotional one and I posted without thinking.

[fishnfla]

111. Posting without thinking???

What were you thinking? oh yeah, I do it all the time

Dont worry, every newbie gets accused of being a freeper. Hell, I still get it.

[scarletwoman]

114. I'd like to welcome you, and encourage you to stay with us.

There is a HUGE range of viewpoints on DU. Which makes this a great place to explore ideas outside of your personal comfort zone.

Personally, I think it's quite healthy and good for one's critical thinking skills to occasionally find yourself questioning your assumptions.

I hope you'll stick around.

sw

[Delano]

141. Don't worry. Most of us aren't all that into conspiracies.

We'rre just the silent majority. But then again, the more intelligent among us at least keep an open mind. Conspiracies do happen, you know. Dismissing them automatically is a stupid as believing in them all automatically.

[jonnyblitz]

143. really. what horseshit..

NOTHING on this site comes CLOSE to the wackjob crap on a wingnut site....

[0007]

127. You found your way here and it shouldn't be to hard to find an exit

Should it?

[countmyvote4real]

135. Your powerful fuel FOR our enemies will be missed or did you mean

your fuel was against our enemies? Wait a minute, do we have some common enemies? Or maybe it's "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. Regardless of the obscurity to the connection, of our common cause, your fuel will be missed.

[Az]

77. Paragon here is the problem

Its not that we are not bitter about his death. It is not that the video is not horrifying. It is not that we will fabricate anything to bring down Bush. It is that we have do not necissarily accept what we are told. We ask questions. We seek the truth from an administration that makes Nixon look like the town gossip. Some of us see some discrepancies in the video and are willing to suffer through to find the truth. We lament Berg's death either way. We just wish to afix the cause of his death on the proper people and to remove any attempts by others to use his death to their advantage. We seek the truth and I personally believe that this is the right thing to do.

[indigobusiness]

78. I party democratically...

but that's as far as it goes.

Do you claim the high moral ground?

Well, plant a flag of some sort.

http://sludgereport.blogspot.com/

[Walt Starr]

81. So I suppose you have incontrovertible evidence that the murderers

of Nick Berg were, without any reasonable doubt, Al-Queda?

If not, I stand by the statement that it is equally plausible that the murderers were Al-Queda OR CIA operatives. Until you provide the evidence to put one or the other theory to rest, why dontcha think about chillin' out.

[Paragon]

84. And do YOU, sir, have incontrovertible evidence that the sky is blue?!?

:eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

87. I do....

The sky is not only blue in prescence of sunlight, but it has been proven scientifically why that is.

[Walt Starr]

94. Actually, yes I do

There are scientific reasons why, during daylight hours, the sky takes on a blue hue.

I have no evidence to prove these murderers were CIA. I also have no evidence to prove they were Al-Queda.

Both conspiracy theories are equally plausible given the current evidence.

[Pithlet]

89. It's not so much the conspiracy theories that get me,

It's the immediate jumping to conclusions before all the facts are out, and calling others sheep who aren't willing to immediately come to those same conclusions, that gets me.

[Liberal Veteran]

92. What the HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE....

Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia.

Case closed!!!!

:eyes:

[StandUpGuy]

96. Conspiracy junkie

If your not paranoid you are not paying attention.

When the theory makes more sense than the offical truth we need to investigate it.
When the Dems are to afraid to, and the media refuses to, the people must !

Is this site an arm of the Democratic party ?

I hope not.

[scarletwoman]

104. "Is this site an arm of the Democratic party?" No -- thankfully it's NOT!

I'm with you: "If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention."

sw

[fishnfla]

110. You still here?

Last I saw, you were the latest newbie/whipping boy aint allowed to think any other way.
You best beware......;)

[StandUpGuy]

121. still here

I have read DU for about a year without being able to post due to the Hotmail restriction.

I have seen how new people to a clique are treated all my life so when i saw it here i was not surprised . Disappointed maybe but not surprised.

[Toby109]

100. C'mon people

We are better than this. A lot of people are upset about the events of the last several weeks in Iraq and rightfully so. It is only natural that some will seek answers wherever they can find them, real or imagined.

Let's rise above it.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separatety"--Benjamin Franklin

[0rganism]

106. Logical Fallacies: argument from incredulity, argument by intimidation

We can question what we see. It's become abundantly clear over the last decade that there are conspiracies afoot, that we don't see everything that happens, and some of what we see happen isn't what it seems like at first.

People speculate, analyze, criticize.

Yesterday, I was trying to understand the perspective distortion on the dog attack photo, wondering if it could be a photoshop job.

Today I want to know why the guys in the video are so damned fat.

The day I stop questioning what I see and hear is the day you can scrawl my name on a headstone.

[Walt Starr]

108. One thing we know for a FACT, the Berg murder WAS a conspiracy

by definition. Five men participated. It was all there on the video. That, by definition, is a conspiracy. There is no doubt.

What is in doubt is the following:

1) Were there participants off camera? e.g. how large is the conspiracy?

2) Who, exactly, were the men under the hoods?

3) Were the claims made by the hooded men about who they were and why they were doing this true?

Until those questions are answered, all we have are theories about this conspiracy.

[0rganism]

117. The coincidence theorists don't seem to doubt Islamic conspiracies

It's easy for everyone to believe that 20 Al Qaeda operatives flawlessly infiltrated the USA, went to American flight schools, hijacked four airplanes at once, and flew three of them into buildings. That there's a conspiracy for sure. But the second you start asking why the USAF didn't scramble interceptors, or why the hijacker's passports were found undamaged in the WTC rubble, or why half a dozen of them still claim to be alive and well and living in the Middle East, or how John O'Neill left his job hunting terrorists for the FBI to work security at the WTC right before the attacks, you're somehow off the beam. That's all a coincidence!

So as long as the guys wearing masks are Arabic terrorists of some sort, it's a perfectly valid conspiracy. Start asking difficult questions, and you become a "conspiracy theorist damaging the Democratic party by association", or some such. Mind Crime! Mind Crime! Yeeeeearrrrrgh!

[dweller]

130. i wondered the same thing about

the kidnappers of Hamill (sp?) who was just released and returned the past week.
the photos of his captors, taken in a vehicle ( i think there was a video) showed some overweight hooded men, and that struck me initially that they weren't ....i don't know exactly...but not Muslim.

sorry i can't point you to a photo/video, but i know it's out there.

dp

[corporatewhore]

125. in honor of ductapefatwa : One mans conspiracy Theory is

another mans business plan

[anarchy1999]

142. I need this pic for next week..........

I am so sorry for all that is happening now. We Tried! Most of all we tried to make our voices be heard. In many loud ways! Its okay everyone, we just have to keep fighting. It is plain and it is simple. Peace be upound us all! WE ALL HAVE TO STAND UP NOW! No more war! No more unilateral Nukes. We don't need them.


NO MORE WAR!!!!! PERIOD!!!

[nomatrix]

137. You must be very young

I suggest you take a trip to DC to the Holocaust Museum. You'll find more horrifying despicable behavior on film than what you watched on that tape. Then remember who funded them.

This has to be said. What was he there for? Was he dragged out of his home, beaten, raped forced into Iraq? Was he armed?
Why was he there? To make lots of money. Greed.

Why are the troops there? Where is your nausea at the mounting deaths of our ill equipped, poorly trained, over worked national guard units?
Our bombs dropping on innocent people.

There are too many threads over one man, who did nothing heroic. If he was a treasure diver and a shark ate him, would you be so outraged?
If he wasn't American would you be outraged?

Lots of nice guys are dying there for no pay. This has got to end. No retribution for his death. Period. It has got to stop.

[Cascadian]

138. I was in horror too.

I did not see but I was saddened by this too. It is outrageous and just as outrageous as us killing Iraqis. Every life should be considered precious. Do not think I am unsympathetic to his family. His Dad is outraged at Bush for letting this happen. I cannot blame him and more people should aim their rage at Bush.


John

[Angelus]

139. See that little "x" next to those threads????

Well, click it and hide them. :)

There...is that so hard?

[Delano]

140. I can think of lots of things more horrifying.

300,000 civilians incinerated in an instant in Hiroshima, Those poor souls leaping to their deaths on 9/11...

What happened to Nick Berg is indeed horrifying, but for whatever reasons, conspiracy or not, he put himself into a very dangerous place. He had a choice, and he chose the danger. I hope he achieved what he wanted to do before these Al qaeda(?) thugs offed him.

The conspiracy theories will stop as soon as we stop having the most secretive and corrupt government in our history, I'd guess.