I'm REAL SORRY to start another one on the Berg thing, but I just dont GET

[mike1963]

one thing. All the world-wide publicity about the A. Ghraib business was "favorable" to Iraqis, Muslimss, Arabs, etc. Maybe 'beneficial, politically' would be a better way to put it...

So just -why- would they pick this particular time to release this awful video? It makes no sense to me! It surely is having the precisely opposite effect on world opinion that they've been working and hoping for.

What the hell am I missing here?

:eyes:

[Democat]

1. Who released the video is the question?

Right.

[salinen]

2. Nothing

This is the thuglicans rallying the base.

[stickdog]

3. What you seem to be missing ...

:tinfoilhat:

I have mine in place and this whole event makes perfect sense to me.

You can pick one up cheap at the "Allah Abkar" Flight 93 Outlet just like I did!

[mike1963]

6. Hi stickdog.....well, you & I have had some pretty bitter battles in the

past (WTC, Wellstone, other airplane stuff - I used karlschneider until a bit of unpleasantness with a mod ;-)

but I'm beginning to think you aren't anywhere near as nuts as I used to.
:D

[DrWeird]

4. Iraqis have known about Abu Ghraib since the beginning.

the footage was just salt in the wounds.

So they're understandably filled with rage. There's usually all kinds of violence after these kinds of things, would you expect any less?

It's been two weeks since the Abu Ghraib footage was released and, let's face it, the US has done nothing substantial about it. It has become clear to Iraqis that we're not taking it seriously and that many in the US are supportive of it.

So I am not in the least bit surprised that the Iraqis are starting to treat their prisoners the same way we're treating ours.

That's the whole point of the Geneva conventions.

[Tansy_Gold]

14. Reply to #4 above and #5 below

#1. Iraqis are not al-Qaeda. The Iraqis may be justifiably furious about the abuse at Abu Ghraib and may have known about it for ages, but the Berg murder seems to have been done by non-Iraqis linked to al-Qaeda.

#2. At least part of what al-Qaeda seems to want is exactly what some christian fundamentalists want -- the end of the world as we know it and the achievement of a heavenly eternity with god. Both groups have a marked lack of respect for human life, although most of the christian fundies seem to be fond of their own lives and have little difficulty depriving others, where at least some of the islamic extremists give little care to their own continued existence. This may be, in part, due to the fact that western encroachments have made their lives miserable (Palestinians under Sharon) or have disrupted what they consider their traditional way of life (Taliban misogyny, etc.)

Hence, there is little hope of applying logic and reasoning either to the terrorists (of either religion) in hopes of changing their minds or of understanding their logic. One must begin at a start point radically difference from where we would normally start, specifically the sanctity of human life. If the "other party" lacks that foundation, using it to reason with them is pointless.

[Blue_Chill]

5. Al Qaeda doesn't want peace

Not exactly sure where you heard otherwise. Anything to worsen the situation is exactly what they want.

[mike1963]

7. Okay, but if they don't want 'peace', what do you think they DO want?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't wrap my brain around the concept that any faction doesn't want peace. Oh, wait, I forgot about
Chimpy.......

holy shit...

[Blue_Chill]

15. They want a holy war.

I believe they have stated as much in the past.

[Raenelle]

10. Exactly. Bush is so easy, so predictable. They want him to REACT.

When he reacts, he creates enemies, and his enemies then become resources for Al Qaeda. And the Boy Emperor is such a perfect combination of immaturity (a rubber-ball--throw it up against the wall, and it WILL bounce back), vindictiveness, stupidity, lack of wisdom, self-righteousness, just the perfect foil for someone trying to entice his enemy into a game of "my dick is bigger than yours," just the kind of unmeasured response sure to alienate different cultures who aren't as in love with the USA as its residents are.

[DAGDA56]

8. Forgetting some outside the box theories for a minute...

...maybe it was simply a lesser faction trying to "make their bones"...as mysterious a group as these thugs may be to us, maybe within the AQ community, they are better known. They may have wanted to exert their influence in a way that couldn't be ignored.

[ijk]

9. Motives of terrorism

Terrorists - and here I want to be clear that I don't mean Arabs or Muslims or Iraqis or anything, I mean already committed, hardcore terrorists - can have somewhat murky motivations. Take al-Qaeda. Basically a pan-muslim, fundie group. They have some specific aims - the US out of Saudi Arabia, for instance - and some broader ones, regarding their brand of muslim moral conservatism.

When you're talking about the former, it's relatively easy to analyze their actions in conventional strategic ways. The latter, more difficult. In Iraq, for instance, they don't just want to see the US shamed into a quiet withdrawal; they want Iraq to come under muslim fundie control. That may well mean exacerbating the conflict, to further destabilize the country.

[Bombtrack]

11. everything isn't one big conspiracy.The muslim world didn't hold a meeting

and decide to put this out. And Al Queda cell sent it to a website, probably with the help of some government gangster or some other person of power from a muslim country.

[mike1963]

12. You may very well be right, but if AQ is actually that decentralized and

fragmented, how can it ever be effectively confronted?

Lemme try to think of an analogy.....

Well, this is pretty lame, but - there's a biblical injunction against cutting off men's beards. There are millions of barbers around the world abetting this religious violation. They aren't actually bound or organized but they have in common that their livlihood depends on doing what they do. If Shrub and/or Ashcroft decide they have to be stamped out, how would or could it be done?

As I understand the name, Al Qaida (phonetic) means "the base", but there really IS no "base", as in an office building somewhere. It's a nebulous (and nefarious) concept and organization.

I dunno, it seems like going out with a 30.30 rifle to get rid of a swarm of flies...

The whole damn thing just makes me wanna move to Alpha Centauri. (third rock from the sun)

:eyes:

[Jack Rabbit]

13. Red herrings

The torture at Abu Ghraib and the murder of Mr. Berg are related to each other as red herrings. The perpetrators of one and their supporters will use the other as justification for their atrocities; however, neither atrocity can justify the other.

The torture at Abu Ghraib was not "favorable" to Iraqis, Muslims, Arabs or whatever. It reflected badly on the individual soldiers involved, their commanders, the US armed forces and, finally, on the US administration that set up a peculiar detention system beyond the oversight of any independent body, either federal or international. Most importantly to the Bush administration, it stripped away any pretense that the war was fought to bring democracy to Iraq. Democracy does not look like this.

Of course, we know what al Qaida is. That their operatives would do what they did to Mr. Berg should surprise no one. These are, after all, the same people who plunged hijacked jetliners into office buildings on September 11 and killed 3000 people. There's nothing good to say about them, either.

In the end, it shouldn't surprise us one bit that either group of criminals -- al Qaida or the Bush junta -- would use the other acts as pretexts for more atrocious acts. They are all certain that they live the good and moral life and have every right to beat the crap out of anybody who doesn't accept it or kill them in the most horrid ways imaginable. There are all peas of the same pod -- or is it fruit of the same deadly nightshade?