Ok, I'm lost here...Someone explain how the decapitation film helps Bush.

[Maddy McCall]

(edited: grammar)

But please read what I have to say, first.

I watched the video. Most people won't watch it. But they are being blasted with photos of the young man kneeling in front of his murderers. The young man's father will be on every news show in the upcoming week. He is anti-war and anti-Bush and he will mince no words--he will tell the whole story of how his son was detained by U.S. officials in Iraq, without ability to contact his family or to have a lawyer present. His father is already blaming U.S. officials who detained him for his son's murder. Who could not be touched by the father collapsing on the front lawn?

In a way, I am reminded me of the murders of Goodman, Cheney, and Shwerner during freedom summer in Mississippi. The men were detained and then released in the middle of the night--their murderers had been alerted that they were about to be released, and then the men were killed and buried in a dam. Did U.S. officials set the Berg up to be easy prey, to be murdered, by releasing him to his murderers (Americans? Iraqis working for the U.S.? True hostiles?)? The Goodman/Cheney/Schwerner murders were instrumental in turning the tide in the civil rights fight.

Here is my opinion--consider the context into which this news is happening. Americans are already disgusted with the prisoner abuse photos. Popular support of Bush is waning. This news/film being released into the present PR nightmare (for Bush) will cause people to say, "Get us the HELL out of Iraq. Enough is ENOUGH!"

I don't see John Q. Public saying, "Well, we are there to help the Iraqis, and since they killed this guy brutally, let's stay there and keep up the effort until our job is done."

I think people are thinking, "It can only get worse if we stay." People are turned off. Ollie North is on Hannity and Colmes trying to whip up furor toward "jihadist" Muslims. His plea is hollow. Colmes is asking him why people aren't more pissed off about the Berg murder.

People are fed up. People want out of this war. More photos of prisoner abuse are on the way. Republican and Democratic mothers and fathers think of their children, and they want to bring them home.

This does not help Bush. If he thought it would, he was wrong. It will backfire.

[bushgottago]

1. maybe - to create anger

To justify torture. My best guess. Another guess - Bush isn't very bright and didn't think this through.

[yardwork]

2. I agree with you.

I think that BushCo figures that this will whip up fury among Americans so that they can escalate their war, which is their long-term plan.

It will whip up fury but only among the 35% of Americans who will vote for BushCo no matter what. The rest of us - the 65% who haven't drunk the kool-aid - will be reinforced in our initial and ongoing assessment that this war is a terrible mistake.

I hope we're right about this.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Bush wants to whip up anti-Islamic feeling

Bringing in al Qaeda does this. Remember, Bush has convinced many Americans that Saddam was responsible for 911. Freepers on another board I frequent have already started attacking Islam again, to the point that one of the liberals wondered how I could stand to even go there to read the threads!

I do think there is an element that wants to make this into a crusade and to kill or convert all Muslims to Christianity. The problem is, these silly idiots don't realize that is prime recruiting material for al Qaeda.

[rumguy]

3. I agree

[XanaDUer]

4. I agree.

I hear Hannity already slobbering with the usual "where's the outrage!" crap, and I saw some repukes in Congress attempting to spin it, but I think it will backfire badly on *.

[daa]

11. I agree

Hannity is as brainless an idiot as shrub.

[XanaDUer]

16. I hate that puke.

I really do. He makes O'Really look intelligent.

And I cannot imagine what Limpdick will have to say about this.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. well..you see..OUR EVIL was exposed this week and so this video proves we

need to stay because they are MORE evil.

This from the people who RAIL against moral relativism.

[jo35042]

38. This terrifies me because

I can see the CIA under Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld being the men in the hoods, killing Berg just for the purpose of stirring up more hatred for the Muslims.

Have I gone crazy or is there the barest possibility of this?

[elfin]

6. Because people will think it shows

their animals are far worse than our animals - this is what we're up against - Therefore, in comparison, our acts indeed look like frat hazing. We were totally justified in our treatment considering the monsters we are up against and anyone who thinks otherwise is a pantywaist, a surrender monkey, a coward.... a Democrat. We gotta get tougher - "trust us" we know what we are doing to bring peace to the Mideast.

[Maddy McCall]

But most Americans aren't critical thinkers...

They won't try to think this through. They will see the horrific images (or hear the description of the video) and say, "I can't stomach any more of this."

Do they have the energy even for flawed critical thought? I don't think so. I think the tide has turned, and there is nothing Bush can do to turn it back, now. Not even gruesome "snuff" footage will work.

[MisterP]

39. the pundits will do that mis-thinking FOR them,

and they'll swallow it w/o any competing theory

[Maddy McCall]

43. Really? You don't think Berg's father's comments will have an impact?

I do.

[mitchum]

50. Berg's fathers comments will have an impact...

only if he is allowed access to the media outlets. Something tells me that this man expression of his sorrow and outrage will get far less air time than it should.

[troublemaker]

7. Absolutely right

Americans will not tolerate discomfort; physical, emotional, or moral. They recoil from disorderly violence. They just want "it" to stop, whatever "it" may be. (The LA riots had a lot to do with getting BUSH 1 out of office)

[Democat]

8. It does help Bush and it will continue to help him!

For several reasons.

First, it takes the U.S. torture scandal out of the front page and replaces it with something showing how "evil" the people in Iraq are. Not only are the people in Iraq evil, but they are Al Queda. Get it? Terrorists in Iraq, just like Bush said.

Secondly, now many stupid people will think (after being told by Fox and every right wing media outlet in the country) that the Iraqis should be tortured and murdered. The prison scandal is now justified in many idiot's minds.

You can already see it happening. Look around you.

[lancdem]

20. I don't think the torture scandal

is going anywhere.

[Maddy McCall]

25. I disagree...

More photos are on the way. There may be a brief respite from the torture photos, but it won't go away. More photos are coming...the media are yapping at the Pentagon steps for copies, and when those photos fall into the hands of the media, the prison torture scandal will return to the front page.

Combine the torture photos with the Berg's father's story on the evening news, and you have a PR molotov cocktail that will destroy Bush's handling of this war.

People are listening to the news on Berg now, and what they are hearing is that an American son was held in U.S custody without benefit of any form of contact with family or counsel. An AMERICAN. They will hear the father blaming Bush.

This isn't over, but it won't help Bush--I really don't think it will.

[Reverend_Smitty]

9. Its a horrible tragedy...

We can all agree upon that, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Bush Crime family had a part in all of this.

I hope its not true, but nothing surprises me anymore.

[oasis]

10. The Bushies are hoping this has the same effect as the mutilation and

burning of the 4 mercenaries. The right wingers are still getting mileage out of that tragedy.

[Robbien]

12. They believe people will be outraged against liberals and liberal media

They believe CBS Sixty Minutes II airing of the prison torture caused Berg's beheading and the people will see it that way and will uprise against liberals.

[lancdem]

13. You make some excellent points

[stickdog]

14. Come on, jchild.

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people." H L Mencken

Bloodlust. This is red meat for the wavering base and the woefully misinformed & uninformed undecideds. As such, it will work like like a charm.

It's all RW media will talk about for the next week. If that doesn't clue you in, what will?

[Maddy McCall]

28. Tell me how it helps Bush.

Exactly. How does it help Bush?

If the RW media ignore Nick Berg's father's story, or try to minimalize it, they only discredit themselves.

And, as another poster noted above, the only people who will be fired up for Bush will be the 35% who still think he is doing a good job over there.

People are SICK of Iraq. This only turns them off more.

[charlie]

40. How can you be so sure?

This sort of thing provokes reaction, not considered action. If everyone in the nation was forced to view the video, I wouldn't bet even 10 bucks against a tide of vengeance galvanizing renewed support for our Git Tuff, does-whut-needs-to-be-done preznit.

[Maddy McCall]

42. But gut reactions say "Get us the fuck out of Iraq."

"Our children are being turned into torturers and our children are being brutally murdered. Get us the hell out."

At least, in my simple, unintellectual mind, that is how I predict many Americans will react.

That video may inspire a revulsion to the war, not just to Iraqis.

[charlie]

45. It may

But my simple, unintellectual mind :) says that isn't what'll happen. In spite of everything, people still say the one quality they most appreciate in Dubya is that "he means what he says, he does what he says." If he pops up tomorrow banging the smoke-em-out, bring-the-evildoers-to-justice drum again, I have no confidence the sea of chumps won't fall for it... again.

[Blue_Roses]

55. I totally agree

it doesn't help Bush at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. If you are Karl Rove you need to get the bad news of

the teevee... that is how this helps Bush, at least if you ask Rove.

But they did not think this though and don't realize that with all the lies this will only serve to hit the buttom of lets get the hell out...

That said, this was a setup and many of us have been asking how or why...

It reminds you of Freedom Summer

It reminds me of Central America and why they had Negroponte confirmed

[fujiyama]

18. People are stupid

and will "rally around the flag". They will support Bush in whatever way the US responds, just as they did during the Fallujah attack. His nukmbers went up then for that reason alone. people saw it as revenge for killing the contractors/ mercinaries in Fallujah.

Similiar thing here -- people will forget about the abuse and torcher pics and justify it with even more warped reasoning -- "look how they're treating our boys...they deserved whatever we did to them". Neverwmind the fact that many of those detained were possibly innocent. Nevermind the fact that the US is the one that invaded their nation and is occupying them. Nevermind that Iraq wasn't responsible for 9/11 or any other terrorist attack against the US.

It's irrelevant. Most of the hijackers were Iraqi according to many people. Saddam was responsible.

[moondust]

19. I fear it may give him license

to nuke Fallujah. Or something similar. And the wingnuts will cheer. And we will all descend further into barbarianism.

[WFF]

27. I was thinking that that's what the RW will be screaming for

Nuke Iraq!

I've heard people on the news saying that we should have turned Fallujah into a charred parking lot even before this happened. I'm guessing that this will strengthen Bush's base.

[Az]

21. Here are some possible ways

First off I am not convinced the video is anything other than what it appears to be. I am a skeptic though and as such I find some discrepancies so I remain open to exploring the issue further.

As to motives for Bush and crew to release a video like this there are a few. They already had a decapitated body. Without the video we have no idea how it came about. The creation of the video will enrage the public and demonize all those that oppose George and Co. Any question about what we are doing over there now will be referenced to that video.

It overshadows the public relations disaster that the torture film created. This will blow any revelations from the investigations off the front page. We will hear about this now for weeks to come.

[mmonk]

22. I'm not as optimistic

I think people will say the "abuse" is how you have to deal with these people and that's proof. Most people think only men "detainees" were in that prison I'm willing to bet and that they think they were all terrorists. I think there will be at least a small rally for bush and his "war on terra" and more of the crap that "liberal" Kerry is trying to benefit politically in his fund raising.

[KAZ]

23. I hope it will backfire, but I must admit....

...I became furious at first. I'm not sure about the tinfoil stuff going around here at DU, but who knows, but I'll tell you one thing; those hooded fucks in the video best have more than a 10 inch knife if they come around me. God, this is only the beginning.

[warrior1]

26. it won't help but

sad to say it will get worst and everything that we other on the left will be proven correct. War was bad and bush lied.

[Jacobin]

24. I don't think it helps him at all

It's an obvious consequence of the spiraling out of control of his policies and the lunacy of his idiotic invasion and occupation plan.

[dflprincess]

29. I agree

So do the few people I've talked to about it. My mother's comment was - "They had to expect something like this would happen."

[pleiku52cab]

33. heres how

he will withold all other photos of our military abuses because -- "it might endanger other troops"

[Maddy McCall]

34. ding ding ding ding ding!

Bingo!

In this context, the video hurts him. There is no way that Bush will be able to revert to that silly, populist, feel-good, Reaganite "it's morning in America" bullshit message.

His policies are out of control. The idiocy of the invasion is exposed and its gruesome consequences are being flashed on our tellies.

Bush gets no mileage out of this one. In fact, I think this will hurt him more than it will help him.

[enough]

30. Simple: revenge

Our next reason for being in Iraq. REVENGE for all the outrages that have been perpetrated on us since we went to Iraq.

It is the purest gold that Buscho knows how to spin. You only need to think of Lieberman and Inhofe in the hearings. We can and should do everything to harm the Iraqis because SOMEONE DID SOMETHING TO US.

These people are looking for the end of anything we know of as civilization. They are playing to our darkest most atavistic impulses, and it works.

They got to kill several hundred civilians in Fallujah in revenge for the burned bodies of 4 contractors. A beheading should be good for what -- maybe 400 more.

[KAZ]

32. Winner here.

Might even help with the "allies"(under my breath, "coalition of the bribed").

[Az]

31. It doesn't have to be Bush and Crew behind it

There are other parties play in this situation. It could well be Chalibi and his forces trying to play some twisted political game. Bush has opened Pandora's box in Iraq. And now all manner of monsters are crawling out.

[Bok_Tukalo]

35. This was our enemy exacting revenge

That's all.

As far as the political implications, the Bush Administration has lost America on this war already. We (and when I say "we," I mean the nation) are questioning the legitimacy of this conflict. It's too late to stoke the fires of righteous indignation.

If the war is not seen as just, and I no longer believe it is, then this will not make America mad. It will only make them regret.

[demgrrrll]

36. Is it just me or do there seem to be more coincidences with this regime

than one would consider normal. Why was that man let out
of confinement while still wearing an orange jumpsuit? Wouldn't that
be something akin to painting a bullseye on someone? I detest
Bush I just detest all of them with every fiber of my being.

[Bok_Tukalo]

46. Occam's razor

He was abandoned and alone, trying to find a way out of the maelstrom. Easy pickings for a group with which to make a local, and global, political point; an ugly, personal, inhuman point. No need to look for conspiracy when the obvious is staring you in the face. Iraq is a shithole. And occasionally the feces will float to the top.

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[DaveSZ]

49. I believe this incident could either help or hurt Bush depending...

I'm not really sure how this will affect Bush, but I do know that the RW media shills will now start talking about Al Qaeda being in Iraq as proof that the invasion was justified.

It's our job as liberals to dispel that myth (that there are Al Qaeda/Saddam connections).

This could help Bush if the shills succeed with that goal.


On the other hand, when those contractors were killed and hung from a bridge, Bush's poll numbers took a nosedive.

It's hard to tell at this point how things will turn out, but if Berg's parents are able to get their message out, it will probably hurt Bush in my estimation.

[jo35042]

41. I am hearing a lot of talk

about what "animals" our enemies are.

I fear someone wagging the dog here. Berg had obviously pissed someone off, else why was he detained for 13 days and then disappeared?

[Maddy McCall]

44. Conspiracies aside, the "animals" were humanized in the torture videos...

And once those photos were out of the bag, they can't be put back.

And there are more to come. The 35% who support Bush are saying "turn Iraq into glass," and "nuke them." But the 50% who have slowly trickled to "our side" from "their side" are not going back to support Bush and the war because of this horrific murder.

More and more soldiers are returning to hometowns disabled or in body bags. The war is affecting people in personal ways.

I think the reaction people have to the video is "that is someone's son," not "kill them Iraqi bastards." Six months ago, this might have worked for Bush. Not today, though.

[Bok_Tukalo]

48. I agree

This just makes the plurality sad.

[chookie]

47. Gee -- they sure were fast to release it

This video is the most horrific image to hit popular consciousness since Sept 11.

Interesting that the Pentagon and adminstration would advise caution in releasing images of dead or tortured Iraqis due to their graphic nature and inflammatory potential, but not hesitate a moment in releasing this unthinkable horror.

Are we to think they are acting out of pure honesty and transparency? Nonsense. They released it in order to inflame American opinion, galvanize it against "terrorists" (not just murderous fiends as in the video, but Muslims and Iraqis generally) , and blow the POW story, and criticism of the war, off the front pages.

Funny that this is released the week that polls show that support for Operation Futile Quagmire is at all time low....

I'm reserving judgement on this one, of course, but there are aspects to this story that have raised my suspicions.

[Zero Gravitas]

51. Stir up anger

at the turraist Moooslim A-Rabs... this sort of thing will get the Freeper's pantys in a knot and in their fascist minds it somehow justified the abuse of Iraqis randomly picked off the streets in US sweeps.

I think the notion that the US killed this guy for political/PR reasons is absurd. The video being a hoax on the other hand...

[jokerman93]

52. Look at the big picture -- here's how it helps

I think this is the first retribution. My expectation is that our torture pictures have just opened the floodgates of a shit storm of violence against America that will make the atrocities of Vietnam look like a warm-up round. I doubt this needed to be orchestrated. I believe it's real and this kind of abomination will continue and intensify until the horror is at our doorstep.

The conspiracy against the American people has already occurred. Ask yourself: Does this inevitable escalating violence, coinciding with the softening up of Syria with new sanctions (step one prep for invasion), serve the ongoing Dominionist/neocon agenda?

The answer to that question should be obvious. Huston, we have our world war -- doesn't matter what you want to call it -- and personally, I don't see how there's any turning back.

We're f'cked.

(This is a reply I cross posted because of the flurry of similar topic threads)

[jayavarman]

53. I cannot even believe

that people on this thread think that this poor guy getting his head hacked off is some kind of conspiracy.

What the fuck is wrong with some of you.

I don't know what is more disturbing, watching that horrible video, or reading all of these consiracy theories and 'who gets the political advantage' posts.

Some of you are some cold bastards

[Maddy McCall]

54. Lots of northerners couldn't believe that a sheriff would release three

young men into the hands of the Klan, either.

I just pointed out the similarities in this story and the Freedom Summer story.

I don't believe this was done by Americans.

But I think you are out of line to call people the neme you did when all people are doing is trying to make sense of an event that seems to make no sense.

[demgrrrll]

56. I, for one, would give anything to return to the time that we did not

need to look for sinister motives in our government's actions.
I also believe firmly that the people who have posted here
feel the same way.