For Those Who Have No Trouble Watching the Video Only

[stickdog]

There are four obvious cuts.

One when the camera time goes from 2:44:12 to 13:45:47 (as the gross part begins).

At this point, the leader (in a dark head covering) is the one doing the carving. The only guy with a white head covering is on the the far left of the screen, holding the victim down.

Then there is a cut (pardon the pun) at 13:46:33 which returns at 13:47:46 (a gap of about 1:13). Now the guy with the white head covering (who was holding the victim down on the left) suddenly "trades places" with the ostensible leader, and holds the head up to the camera for all of us to enjoy. The camera timestamp then jumps from 13:47:52 back to 2:46:17 (and then back again) with the same guy in a white head covering holding up the head. Note that at no time after the head is held up do we see any "terra'ist" other than one wearing a white head covering.

So what happened? Why did our big bad terra'ist leader require a stand in to complete the filming?

http://www.soulsurvivors.net/Public/iraq2vediom.wmv - (WARNING: Extremely graphic)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jvdkuyp/iraq2vedio2.rm.ram

[Nlighten1]

1. Shades of Daniel Pearl.

Remember during what little information that got out about Pearl there was an FBI agent posing as a journalist who was passed the tape of Pearl being killed by an un-named Pakistani.

[chimpymustgo]

2. Shades of CIA. Or something funky.

Thanks stickdog for the digital detective work. They are not going to pull this bullshit over on us. WE WILL FIND THE TRUTH.

[w13rd0]

5. There's also the fact that Daniel Pearl...

...was investigating the Pakistani ISIs connections to al Queada financing and training...

[Carni]

10. Pearl is the first thing I thought of

Wasn't there some speculation that Pearl was on to some big story?

[Nlighten1]

25. See post #5

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

3. Dude...

>Then there is a cut (pardon the pun)

Dude... c'mon. This is someone's freakin kid.

[Junkdrawer]

4. I can forgive a little gallows humor on the part of anyone brave enough...

to study that video.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

6. anyone brave enough...

Or sick enough.

[Devil Dog Dem]

14. Amen!

May God rest his soul and comfort his poor loved ones.

[Devil Dog Dem]

15. Amen!

May God rest his soul and comfort his poor loved ones.

[T Roosevelt]

7. Is it the same camera?

After reading other threads (and just the fact that it involves decapitation - that should be enough), I won't watch it. But I am curious about the time stamps...

[Tinoire]

8. Thank you Stickdog. Where did you see the video?

If you can't post the link; please PM it to me.

Thanks

[Andy_Stephenson]

9. Me as well.

please.

[Devil Dog Dem]

11. Do yourself a favor and DO NOT watch the video

See this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1580350&mesg_id=1580350

[Tinoire]

17. Thanks for the warning Devil Dog Dem but I do want to see it

I am sure it will have a profound effect on me but I am willing to face it. I'll stop if it's too much.

[stickdog]

19. My recommendation is don't LISTEN.

[Tinoire]

22. Ok. Thank you for that but link please? Thanks n/t

[nonconformist]

24. Link has been edited into the original post. nt

[Tinoire]

30. Thanks! n/t

[nonconformist]

23. AGREE on the sound

Fucking HORRIFYING.

[charlie]

20. Keep the sound low then, Tinoire

It's an unspeakably horrific sight, but couple with the sounds... I'm still in a dazed funk.

[Devil Dog Dem]

12. So what is your point? That it is a forgery?

They found his decapitated body on a highway and are shipping it home tomorrow.
What more do you need?

[Devil Dog Dem]

13. So what is your point? That it is a forgery?

They found his decapitated body on a highway and are shipping it home tomorrow.
What more do you need?

[stickdog]

18. My point is that the guy they forced to play the leader puked when

the going got tough and had to be replaced with a "stand in."

[hang a left]

36. Do you always repeat yourself? n/t

[Devil Dog Dem]

100. Yes

What of it?

[Devil Dog Dem]

101. Yes

What of it?

[stickdog]

102. LOL

LOL

[Calico Jack Rackham]

16. There are lots of videos

of Muslim extemeists beheading Russian soldiers in Chechnya one is particularly gruesome since they show the beheading from start to finish. Sadly, I knew it would only be a matter of time before it began happening to Americans as well.

[Az]

21. The editing is odd

I would expect the camera to stay on track for the entire event. Instead there are what appears to be deliberate edits designed to muddle changes. Particularly if they were switching from a live body to a dummy they could decapitate.

This is no clear sign of cloak and dagger stuff. But it is odd. There is still the fact that a decapitate body was found. It may be that they did not behead him in that manner. The video could be an attempt to enflame public opinion. To create the impression that these people are subhuman.

[Jim Warren]

26. Very interesting

and obvious after you pointed it out as of course the horrific emotional content tends to put one off noticing the cinegraphic details or the desire for multiple viewing.

I'm tempted to say 'good catch'

[stickdog]

27. It's like it was filmed and edited by Ed Wood. (nt)

[TroubleMan]

28. THERE IS NO BLOOD .... ANYWHERE!!!!

Not on the guys hand who did the cutting, not on the floor, not on Berg's orange jumpsuit.

I have never personally witnessed a beheading, but shouldn't there be more blood?

From what I've heard, I would expect the floor, the jumpsuit, and everything else to be covered with blood.


Maybe I've just got bad eyes, or just don't want to see it....I don't know.

I hate doing this....I want to believe that some anti-American extremist group did this.


I don't know what to believe anymore. The jump in the times on the camera, the orange jumpsuit, no blood.....it almost looks fake.

But then again....why fake this? It sounds like I'm looking for reasons not to believe it, but when I first saw it my thought was "Kill Bill was a lot bloodier, and why is that guy wearing an orange jumpsuit (the two piece ones like I saw in from the Quantico brig - detainees wear blue and prisoners wear orange)."

I'm just rambling now....I don't want to be disrespectful to Berg or his familiy, but it just looks fake, especially without blood being everywhere.

Any doctors here? Am I loosing it...or is there supposed to be more blood?

[IronLionZion]

29. there's blood

it's hard to see but its there alright. That took way too long. The poor guy didn't know what was going to happen to him. But having it done slowly must have been just horrible!

[TroubleMan]

31. I couldn't see it and I zoomed in...but

The video was terrible. I think he was beheaded, AND I think it was in retaliation for the prison torture we did, AND it was done by anti-American forces. I just don't think they did it all on this tape.

I can't explain the jumpsuit...I sure there's a reason, but I just can't think of it.

[Djinn]

82. there is blood

but there's not the amount that would be expected after beheading a LIVE person - a severed carotid artery will spurt blood METRES and would have certainly spurted onto those standing close by - for me the limited blood flow and the time stamps point to something fishy.

I've no doubt that this poor kid met a grissly end but I don't think we've seen the full story - if the voices on tape are of those shown on it then one thing I am sure of is that they ARE NOT Iraqi voices.

[Maddy McCall]

32. Why don't you just settle down about two notches...there's blood...

lots of it. Watch the video in 200% zoom. I don't see how you can miss it.

[TroubleMan]

34. Well, I am legally colorblind - seriously

I can see colors, but when I took the colorblindness test when I went into the Marines (the one with the numbers in the bubbles), they said I was colorblind. I couldn't see any of those numbers in the bubbles, or in the second test where they shined the light on the wall, I couldn't tell the color.

However, why should I have to look for blood, shouldn't it be all over the place? Shouldn't there be no doubt? I figured there'd be blood all over the place. I didn't see any on his jumpsuit....it should have been soaked.

It's our duty to question, so that's what I'm doing. I've reviewed it several times and I can't see the blood. I admit I don't have the best eyesight, but I can only go by what my eyes tell me.

[Matilda]

94. I haven't yet been able to take a second look at the video,

but regarding the lack of blood - I recall quite a while back seeing
a photo of a decapitated baby after the Sabra/Shatila massacres -
the father was holding the body in a little jumpsuit, and there
was no blood on the suit, only around the neck.

Perhaps it has to do with the heart pumping the blood, and it goes
up to neck and head - possibly in this kind of situation, the upward
flow is quickly cut off.

[stickdog]

45. And?

Any explanation for how and why the leader's head covering turned from dark to white?

[Maddy McCall]

46. And?

Why are you asking me? I am not the authority on beheadings--I have not opined on that--so why are you referring that question to me???

[Valerie5555]

88. Not a Dr. or even an expat national who actually WITNESSED a beheading @

what cynical expats called "stone, chop, chop square" in Saudi Arabia (for that was where the stonings, amputations and beheadings were carried out), but I suspect there would be MORE blood.


Couldn't help but notice that too.

[Iris]

33. This just seems sick.

All this speculation just doesn't seem right. Can't people just let this cool down a little? If there is a truth to find out, it can still be found out later on. Right now no one is going to listen to anything anyone says anyway.

[markses]

35. Hear Hear

It is the SPECULATION side of this whole night at DU that has me sickened with the people here. Does everyone have a RIGHT to speculate? Of course. But there is a level of common decency that people can adhere to, and I think it has been lacking tonight. This is not a parlor game. this is not a Kid-Detective Operation. And as much as people try to justify their speculations as "concerned about the BFEE," or "just trying to get to the truth," or some other such nonsensical rationalization, it reeks of HOBBY, and classless HOBBYISTS.

Go read a fucking detective magazine and stop playing the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew over this poor young man's corpse. It's not so much disgusting as it is an embarrassing breach of decorum. (This part, obviously, not aimed at you, Iris). Have you people no fucking decency?

[TroubleMan]

39. So your saying if we see discrepancies, we shouldn't point them out?

It's a tragedy it happened, but it happened. A guy was killed, ruthlessly. I'm sure he'd want people to get to the bottom of who killed him and why he was killed...I know I would. I wouldn't want my death to be a mystery...I'd wan't somebody to expose and get those fuckers.

NOBODY IS MAKING YOU READ THIS...if you don't like it don't read it. We're trying to discuss this horrible information that has appeared before us. Just shying away in digust isn't going to make it better or make him come back to life.

It's important, and necessary, that we talk this out - EVEN IF SOME OF US GET IT WRONG OR MAKE MISTAKES. We are terrified and disgusted by it, like you are, but some people have to have explanations for what they saw.

I definitely saw some things that weren't right...so your saying I should just shut up about it??


That's just plain fucking stupid...don't read it if you're squeamish.

WE ARE NOT DEMEANING HIS DEATH OR MAKING LIGHT OF IT - AND IT'S NOT A BREACH OF DECORUM BECAUSE NOBODY'S FORCING YOU TO READ IT.

We are simply trying to figure out why things just don't seem right to us.

Once again, it's our duty to question things when the story doesn't match what our eyes see.

[Iris]

40. calm down

markses and I are suggesting there's some common decency in allowing the shock of this to subside. A man is dead. Some respect is due.

And, as I suggested, if there is something more to be discovered about this atrocity, it can still be discovered 48 or 72 or even 720 hours from now.

And if some time is allowed to elapse and something IS found out, maybe, just maybe, more people will listen with an open mind and not just start responding with their emotions.

In the meantime, we have the right to read and respond to anything we want.

[markses]

42. Thank you

You have more patience than I.

I especially agree about the cool off period.

[TroubleMan]

43. This is how I react to tragedy...you respond a different way

I don't like to let it sit around and boil under the surface.

I like to talk things out immediately (and later) so that I'm not stewing about it.


Think of it as a way of dealing with this terrible act.

We should calm down a little, but I don't think anybody's making conclusions yet. I don't know what to think yet...I have ideas...but I'm still undecided.

[Iris]

47. ok. I see what you are saying.

Right now I'm just dealing with the fact that some human beings cut another human being's head off and it is sickening to me no matter who was doing the cutting. I'm willing to sit with the sickening feeling a little while until I can learn some reasonable form of the truth.

But I'm glad you said you don't know what to think yet because I think we should all realize we are probably in some sort of collective shock.

I haven't seen the video and don't intend to, but the fact that most anyone who wants to see it can see means there are probably going to be a lot of freaked out people trying to deal with a lot of emotions they've never had before. Watching a human being die at the hands of other human beings - well, I don't ever want see something like that and most people can probably live a whol

[Iris]

49. ok. I see what you are saying.

Right now I'm just dealing with the fact that some human beings cut another human being's head off and it is sickening to me no matter who was doing the cutting. I'm willing to sit with the sickening feeling a little while until I can learn some reasonable form of the truth.

But I'm glad you said you don't know what to think yet because I think we should all realize we are probably in some sort of collective shock.

I haven't seen the video and don't intend to, but the fact that most anyone who wants to see it can see means there are probably going to be a lot of freaked out people trying to deal with a lot of emotions they've never had before. Watching a human being die at the hands of other human beings - well, I don't ever want see something like that and most people in our country could have probably live a whole live without witnessing something like that.

Not anymore.

[stickdog]

56. Wrong. Now is the time to question. Not later.

Have we learned nothing from 9/11 and everything Bush has done to our country since?

[Iris]

60. Go ahead and question now.

Just don't be offended when no one listens because they are too busy trying to deal with this shit in their own heads.

[markses]

63. Ahem

Iris, don't forget about Bushco. It's meta-meta-meta-physical. :eyes:

[stickdog]

73. It's simply shorthand.

"He has committed the crime who profits by it." Seneca

I report. You decide.

[markses]

76. Oh, I've decided

And Seneca's proposition, on its own, would be laughed out of every courtroom in the country. It is not sufficient for determining guilt, y'know?

[stickdog]

81. In lieu of any presented evidence either way, however,

wouldn't you have to agree that it's the first place to start any inquiries? I mean, junior detective speaking and all ...

[markses]

85. You're the detective

And you obviously enjoy it. That's what's sad about your internet detective crusade on this issue. Or sickening.

[markses]

41. Just as you have the right to your rank speculations

I have the right to find them rank and demeaning, both to Mr. Berg and yourselves. You wanna "bear witness" and play go-go truth seeker? Fine. I'll play junior ethics boy, view the sickening display and call it what it is: a sick fucking hobby.

Don't like the fact that I'm disgusted by the Junior Detective Bullshit going on here? Too fucking bad for you. Don't read it, slick.

[TroubleMan]

44. Yeah, but I never fucking ad-hominem attacked you, but you threw some ..

my way.

Saying that we're having "a sick fucking hobby"....well FUCK YOU!!!

I'm just trying to explain what my eyes saw, I've never watched anything like this...so it ain't a fucking hobby, asshole.

If you're digusted by it, you have every right to be, but keep you're fucking ad-hominem attacks to yourself.


You attacked us...not our message.

[markses]

48. Hit alert then

I calls it like I sees it. Bunch of hobbyists, getting a kick out of speculating. Can't live with it? Hit alert.

[TroubleMan]

53. I'd rather talk it out with you, because you've misunderstood what I'm ...

trying to say.

I don't believe in censorship, whatsoever.

I'm not getting a fucking kick out of it....I'm disgusted by it.. HOWEVER, there are some serious discrepancies...

My take is that they didn't film the whole thing, and that they staged part of it because they couldn't handle all the blood and they didn't want to show themselves "hesitating"

So they cleaned it up and made it look like they did it without hesitation.

They did it for revenge and to insult us.

You're insulting me, because I see obvious discrepancies and I am pointing them out?

That's ridiculous. I HATE DOING THIS STUFF, but I feel it has to be done, and that it's important for some of us that we talk this out.

[stickdog]

64. Thanks, double standard man!

This thread was CLEARLY marked for people who have NO trouble watching the video ONLY.

If you wanted the polite, respectful, clear headed, sensitive, self-righteous, judgmental fuckers' thread, I think it was two down last I looked.

[Iris]

65. Gotcha!

I'll leave you to wallow in your own anger and angst.

Have fun.

[markses]

66. How exactly does the thread labelling

Prevent me from calling the DUnior Detective Squad a pack of rabid hobbyists? Does it say "Don't come in this thread if you don't want to see outrageous speculation that breaches all decorum."

Your just ranting like a lunatic now. What the hell are you talking about?

[TroubleMan]

68. The video time jumped...that's not speculation

That's where you are wrong.

I SAW IT...AND IF YOU WATCHED IT YOU'D SEE IT TOO.

If you didn't watch it, then how can you call it "speculation." We're trying to figure out what we saw...it's a normal human reaction.

Ironically you're the one with the "outrageous speculations." How can you judge what we say if you didn't even watch it?

If you didn't watch it...fine...I don't blame you.

HOWEVER, don't attack us because we did decide to watch it and we saw discrepancies...and the video time changing back and forth was very obvious.

[markses]

71. Aw, c'mon now

If this thread said nothing but: "The video time jumped," then there would be no speculation in this thread. You are certainly correct about that. But that's not all either you or your buddy said, now is it?

[stickdog]

75. The thread presented evidence and then asked for possible explanations.

In fact, it said:

There are four obvious cuts.

One when the camera time goes from 2:44:12 to 13:45:47 (as the gross part begins).

At this point, the leader (in a dark head covering) is the one doing the carving. The only guy with a white head covering is on the the far left of the screen, holding the victim down.

Then there is a cut (pardon the pun) at 13:46:33 which returns at 13:47:46 (a gap of about 1:13). Now the guy with the white head covering (who was holding the victim down on the left) suddenly "trades places" with the ostensible leader, and holds the head up to the camera for all of us to enjoy. The camera timestamp then jumps from 13:47:52 back to 2:46:17 (and then back again) with the same guy in a white head covering holding up the head. Note that at no time after the head is held up do we see any "terra'ist" other than one wearing a white head covering.

So what happened? Why did our big bad terra'ist leader require a stand in to complete the filming?

Care to shed some light on this or are personal insults all you got tonight?

[markses]

78. I wouldn't speculate on it

That's what you're doing. Speculating.

[TroubleMan]

77. (to Markses)True..I don't see any blood...it looks "cleaned up" to me

Again...it's what I saw.

I also saw a brig-style two piece orange jumpsuit on that guy. I haven't figured out that one yet, and I'm trying to think of different reasons....

Again...I see discrepancies...things that are OBVIOUSLY WRONG. I am both outraged and puzzled.

I have to, for my own sake, figure out what I saw. I'm not trying to demean the person who was killed...I'm not trying to trivialize or sensationalize this. I just want to understand, and I'm talking this out with other people who might have similar viewpoints. We are going to make some mistakes, we're going to be wrong sometimes, but that doesn't me we shouldn't deal with it.

By your logic, I shouldn't try to figure out what I just saw, I should just believe what anybody tells me and don't question it. - I can't do that.

I don't have a problem with criticism...it's the way you did it. Iris criticized in a respectful manner and objectively, and I saw a point in what he/she said. However, you just threw out some insults. What's the point? You can't attack a person and then expect them to have a reasoned discussion with you or accept your opinion.

Maybe you don't care, maybe you do, but you've definitely misunderstood why I'm participating in this thread.

[TroubleMan]

79. good night, bedtime

nt

[markses]

84. No, by definition

Any theorem you develop at this point is speculation. By definition.

That you question wildly over the corpse of this man does not mean that others believe whatever they're told, so you can scuttle that little conceit straight off. I think to throw out a bunch of theories at this point does more to feed an entertainment craving than it actually questions anything. That's why the speculation is outrageous. You can cover it with whatever righteousness or supposed political motive you want: that's the upshot of the practice as I see it.

[stickdog]

69. I was attempting humor. Perhaps you've heard of the Monty Python

"argument sketch"? It's a part of my "comedy" vocabulary, I guess. I'm sorry if it didn't translate.

The point remains that my thread was open, investigatory and discussion prompting while your response was personally demeaning and abusive.

But to each his own, I guess.

[Djinn]

87. pot kettle black

markses - you're doing a fair job of ranting yourself.

BTW - Did you find comment about the beating/rape and murder of Iraqi's rank/rabid insensitive and "junior detective" like - or did you see it as something that had become "newsworthy" (for want of a better word) are Iraqi's less deserving of the respect of not talking about the dead?

[markses]

89. I didn't find comment on it rank and insensitive

Baseless speculation about it being faked or the result of mysterious forces that are behind every seeming event, however, I steered clear of. Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps I should have called that sickening as well. Thanks for the corrective. I will make sure to be consistent on that in the future.

[Djinn]

90. in other words

your outrage is limited to discussion of the atrocities inflicted upon an American.

[markses]

92. Not at all

If there were 25 threads spinning out absurd conspiracy theories about the Abu Ghraib prisoners in one night, I'm sure I would have been forced to say something there as well, especially if I was merely responding to someone who said something I agreed with. Unfortunately, I don't remember an instance of such a conspiracy laden GD for the Abu Ghraib pics.

Long story short: No. You're wrong. Nice gambit, though. It has a real sense of the cash value of hypocrisy charges on this board, and it was well balanced if without content.

[Djinn]

95. patronise much

just don't read the threads you don't like the look of - simple enough instructions for you?

[markses]

97. Nah, just a little

No. Those instructions don't work when folks make a mockery of the board with their nonsense. As I said, I was agreeing with another poster.

[stickdog]

52. IMHO, it's a shitty piece of highly amateur BushCo PROPAGANDA!

And rather than discuss or dispute the OBVIOUS Ed Wood aspects of this video, you are impugning my character and integrity?

No one forced you to read this thread. So may I suggest you piss off unless you have something to say that's not personally demeaning?

May I also suggest that you WAKE THE FUCK UP? Because these mofos play for keeps, if you hadn't noticed.

[Iris]

55. markses and I are not saying this isn't a possibility

we're just saying people should give this a little time to cool. off.

We have average Joes and Bettys looking at a video of SOMEONE DYING. Most Americans can probably get through a whole lifetime without seeing something like this, but now it's out their and it ain't like (un)reality tv!

[stickdog]

58. Frankly, my dear Iris ...

Was this thread not labeled clearly enough for y'all?

[Iris]

62. What's your point?

[markses]

61. Whatever you say

Nancy.

[stickdog]

54. IMHO, this is a shitty piece of highly amateur BushCo PROPAGANDA.

But rather than discuss or dispute the OBVIOUS Ed Wood aspects of this video, you are impugning my character and integrity?

No one forced you to read this thread. So may I suggest you piss off unless you have something to say that's not personally demeaning?

May I also suggest that you WAKE THE FUCK UP? Because these mofos play for keeps, if you hadn't noticed.

[markses]

67. Your dishonest about one thing

Your screeched "opinion" is far from humble...

[stickdog]

70. Your mean (nt)

[markses]

72. Touche

on the you're/your. Humble apologies.

[Cronus Protagonist]

80. Time is of the essence

More people may die before we can get to the truth. The quicker we find out the fewer people will die and the perpetrators would be jailed and unable to do more harm. Why wouldn't you want a swift and inscrutable exposition of the true facts of the matter?

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[markses]

86. Inscrutable? LOL

Indeed!

[skewthat]

37. HOLY SHIT!

uhhhhghhghhghhgggg I've just seen the video...and let me say its about the first thing I've ever seen which has made me support this war...JESUS CHRIST!!! I mean to chant "God is great!" when your cutting a bound man's head off! FUCK!...ughhh what the fuck is wrong with everyone in the god damn world! AGGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHH

[Maddy McCall]

50. So you see a murder by a group of Muslims, and you decide to support...

the entire war? Makes no sense. None at all. I could refer you to some other gruesome pictures that demonstrate the inhumanity of war, but why bother?

You've seen the video.

[Iris]

51. Yep. Just like the many Americans who support the war because they think

it is revenge for 9-11.

War is awful. It's always been awful and it always will be awful.

[daleo]

74. I believe this is the reaction someone wanted you to have

Now, the question is who that someone was. It is interesting that it has not been claimed to be the work of an Iraqi (official claim is AQ, speculation is black ops). Most Iraqis would just like everyone to leave them alone.

[Cronus Protagonist]

83. This is so staged. Get real will you?

That post was as bad as a nazi-porn movie script. I feel dirty just having read it.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[demigoddess]

91. Getting our dander up is not going to solve anything

The first thing I thought was that if it had not been for bush's attitude we would not be over there occupying some one else's country, there would not have been any Iraqis tortured and there would not have been any reason for these guys to retaliate. You wonder if these people are savage, I wonder just how savage we would be to invaders in our country. If the 9/11 terrorists had been alive and known on the streets of NY they would probably have been torn apart bodily. All people are savage if they forget international law, and that is what is happening here. just because we do it in an orderly manner does not mean we are just as bad as they are. That is why god invented borders. Keep up with current events and history people. It has been going on all over the globe for centuries that is why we have the UN and international law. To stop all this nonsense. Bush just decided to ignore those things and put himself above everyone else and this is the result. Do you all know the original meaning of passport???

[Djinn]

93. nice well thought out opinion

so how many pictures of dead and/or dying Iraqi's would it take to have you condemning your own side

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[IHaveADream]

57. odd thread to put a

fundraising post on . . .

[TroubleMan]

59. It's random...and sometimes ironic

In the lounge, there's some funny places where it pops up.

[Jim Warren]

96. Important thread of the day

The are the queations that matter of this event, even if their answers are repressed.
My take, not that opinion means much on the 'net heh

[stickdog]

98. Thanks.

I find the complete lack of discussion about the terra'ist leader's sudden replacement telling.

[Hubert Flottz]

99. I hope that every time Bush closes his eyes to go to sleep..........

that he sees that image!