When they use the excuse "It was just a FEW soldiers"

[Lex]

. . . and that it shouldn't reflect on the rest of the U.S. soldiers or the U.S. in general, then just say:

It was only a few people who caused 911, but now it's apparently okay not only to hate those people but all of their fellow citizens, both in Afghanistan, AND in Iraq (which had nothing to do with 911).

So how can the White House say the Iraq torturers were "only a few soldiers" and therefore, it doesn't reflect on our whole country?

The White House certainly doesn't feel that way about the few who committed terrorist acts against the U.S.--hell, they're invading countries based on the actions of a few!

PS--I tried this argument on a right-wing family member today and it shut her up. Hee hee.

[DIKB]

1. Good Job ^^

:yourock:

[Divernan]

2. Good thinking! thanks for the arguing point.

[laura888]

3. great argument!

Plus, the countries they are invading have nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorists.

it would be like attacking China because of Pearl Harbor.

[cliss]

4. Here are some other inconsistencies I've heard recently:

Bush says the latest heinous actions are "from just a few bad apples". Only a few did the torturing. He himself could never be implicated in that mess. But when Bush described Iraqi tortures, he accused Saddam of doing the torturing.

Also, regarding these "few bad ones", he said they must be considered "innocent until proven guilty". We can't jump to any conclusions about their guilt. So what about the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison? I've read that many of them are ordinary citizens scooped up in Baghdad. They've even hauled in kids (one 12-year old in question which will be part of the new "bombshell" soon).

So he's a F*ing hypocrite.

[NMDemDist2]

5. the problem is it was "just a few soldiers"

who were following the orders of the intelligence arm of the military and the CIA and mercenary interrogators,

soldiers who had not be trained to know better with a solid grounding in Geneva Conventions,

a few soldiers who had no business taking orders from a disgraced Utah prisons administrator.

These few soldiers were pawns of the men all the way at the top!

[BigDaddyLove]

6. Except that the 19 hijackers were only a small part of a.........

much larger whole, and their feelings reflected those of many many more people....they were acting on behalf of more than just themselves.

The U.S. soldiers who did wrong in Iraq went too far and did things that fall outside of what they are supposed to be doing.

Therefore, it is O.K. to 'hate' more than just the bad actors in the case of the hijackers, but not so much the entire U.S. and it's military because of the actions of a few.

Of course this post is only in reference to the acts committed in the prison, not the overall invasion, as obviously hatred of America will be born from the 'war' itself.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. Do not come to that conclusion so hastily. Read:

The U.S. soldiers who did wrong in Iraq went too far and did things that fall outside of what they are supposed to be doing.

Read General Taguba's leaked report investigating this. It's not at all clear that what the soldiers did was outside of what they were "supposed" to be doing. The story on this is just beginning to come out.

In addition, Seymour Hersh's 2 articles in The New Yorker summarize this pretty well. It has every appearance that the soldiers may have been doing what they were "supposed" to be doing.

Taguba report:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001

Hersh Articles:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2

[BigDaddyLove]

12. I have no doubt that they were instructed to 'soften up'.........

the prisoners, but I still think that these individual soldiers went above and beyond even those instructions.

At this point, none of us know for sure...there is just way too much speculation about it at this point, with everyone here just assuming that this behavior was sanctioned at the highest levels.

How much outrage did these same folks feel when the Waco massacre happened? Did every Democrat and their Mother demand Janet Reno resign? Did everyone blame Clinton for creating an 'atmosphere' in which this was thought to be the norm as Bush is accused of in this case? I think that what happened to Koresh and friends beats this episode by about a million.

[bvar22]

14. You do need to add in...

...the 36% of the American public (the Limpbaugh fans) who do indeed support the torture of Iraqis (or other non-white inferiors).

[LondonAmerican]

7. It seems to have been pretty systematic

and widespread. And not just US soldiers but also those from the UK...

[Lex]

9. Yes, of course, *we* know that, but the SPIN is

that it is isolated and my answer to the spin is what I was referring to.

Of course, the truth is that I believe that it was systemic, widespread, and so "okay" with the higher-ups that taking pictures seemed not risky or ill-advised to them.

My post was about shutting them up in their spin about the torture.

[LondonAmerican]

15. I think it's not just *you*

but pretty much everyone that knows that by now...

[w4rma]

8. I tell them that they were under orders. This bullcrap was policy. (nt)

[MORTEN]

11. KIA

Does anybody now what the civilian casualty count is currently under
afghan and iraqi people?

Since I am wondering howmany foreigner lifes equal 1 american life.

Not to mention: how many american and british and dutch and japanese and italian and any other coalition members lives equals freedom.

Or is that a stupid question and considerd as classified info as well....


As I gird on for fighting
My sword upon my thigh,
I think on old ill fortunes
Of better men than I.

Think I, the round world over,
What golden lads are low
With hurts not mine to mourn for
And shames I shall not know.

What evil luck soever
For me remains in store,
'Tis sure much finer fellows
Have fared much worse before.

So here are things to think on
That ought to make me brave,
As I strap on for fighting
My sword that will not save.

[beanball]

13. The Detainees

we should all be upset and angry at the actions of the soldiers that mistreated those men,but for the life of me I can't understand why we accept the killing of innocent women and children and not a word,my fellow americans that is sick,and this country need to look inward and see that we are in big trouble.

[Nobody]

16. In today's paper I saw another excuse

The rabid right is now saying...

Saddam didn't apologize and Bush did.

Guess that makes it all better.

[outinforce]

17. "They"???

When "they" use the excuse.....?????

Who is this "they", exactly, that you are speaking of?

Would it be people who are not reflexively anti-military?

Would someone like John Kerry, who served honorably in the US Armed Forces, -- would he be one of "them"?

Who do you mean when you say "they"??????

[Frederic Bastiat]

18. I take it you're not voting for Kerry right?

:eyes:

[Atman]

19. I saw one of the torturer's friends defend him this way

(Before I start...how come EVERY person interviewed for this story has a thick southern drawl and comes from a mining town of 75 people? Is that what the world thinks we're all like?)

This buffoon was saying "Them guys dragged our boys through the street and hung 'em from a bridge! And people are complainin' thet we're roughin 'em up a little! Jeremy was a good boy, wouldn't hurt no one!"

Of course he wouldn't. That's why he joined the service. The pictures...they was told...er, were told to pose that way, they'd never actually do that stuff.

Care for some moonshine?

[JHB]

20. The "bad apple" theory...

...usualy comes up after some police atrocity -- stateside too, you might point out. Just here in NYC:

a cop strangles a guy in a choke-hold, having started a confrontation because a poorly-aimed football hit his squad car: bad apple

a couple of cops drag a guy into a closet, break the handle off a plunger and proceed to ram it first up his butt then down his throat: bad apples

It goes on, with the same excuses.

So you have to point out: then whatever mechanism is supposed to get rid of the "bad apples" is f***ing BROKEN! But fixing that goes up the chain of command, and starts affecting men in cushy positions of authority who have plenty of political friends, so it never happens.

Then there's conditions that work to CREATE "bad apples", and a prison is a place ripe to do that, especially if their instructions are to "set the proper conditions" for later interrogation (something that when done semi-officially tends to be short on carrots and ling on sticks).

You have to ask yourself: how likely is it that ALL of the "bad apples" in Iraq HAPPENED to be assigned to the same unit, given prison duty, and just happened to think they could get away with this sh*t? Or is there more of it we haven't seen yet because nobody had pictures?

[Iceburg]

24. ... the whole dam orchard is rotten and should be uprooted.

Yet "one mad cow" will lead to the slaughter of entire herds" for the safety of it citizens.

And "one mad president" continues to lead the slaughter of entire nations ...

http://www.albasrah.net/images/war_crimes/index.htm

America is the ultimate paradox of freedom and humanity

[0007]

21. Excellent point

[KharmaTrain]

22. Do These People Realize What They're Really Saying?

First...a GREAT argument point and one I hope gets passed around for others to use. It's dead on and can't be refuted. I love those. Thanks!!!!

A tactic I enjoy when confronting wingnuts is, when they say something outlandish, to have them say it again. In some cases, my hearing gets so bad I want them to repeat what they said a third time and a little slower...or maybe again and even slower. Notice, the more they hear what they're saying, the more they hesitate on saying it.

I'm seeing so many attempts this weekend for the flying monkeys to justify torture...or pass the buck. I am also seeing how badly this is really backfiring on the "middle" of America that will determine the election and public opinion. Keep fidling, Nero!

[Atman]

23. Red Cross ONE YEAR AGO called it "systematic abuse"

These were NOT isolated. In fact, according to a quote in the paper today, General Miller was brought to Abu Ghraib to "GITMO-IZE" the place and make it a house of interogation. Which makes the thought of what is actually going on in Cuba even more disturbing.