The first new picture is released, worst yet to come

[ShaneGR]

Not much to say about this really. I want to say horrifying. But I'll stick with evil and filthy.

[leftchick]

1. I have visions of...

Nazis in my head... :(

[ShaneGR]

4. Sighs

The weird thing is, the Nazi's were actually half way decent to American soldiers during the war. You know why? Because they were worried about how the US would treat German POWs if they got out of line.

Obviously command never understood what winning this war was going to take. They were too sick in the head and joyous in their work to understand its repercussions in the long run.

And Cheney calls Rumsfeld "the greatest defense secretary ever." Dear god, have the no eyesight? Can't they see? Are they really this blind to reality?

You are right though, this is the first time I've ever felt this way about my own troops. The sad thing is, 99% of the guys over there are honorable decent men stuck in a terrible situation. Some of them are actually being forced to stay with extended tours. Unbelievable.

[Journeyman]

19. Not all Nazis were "halfway decent". . .

In the Spring of 1944, Adolf Hitler himself decreed that certain US & British fliers, suspected of "terror" bombing, were to be held as criminals, and not prisoners of war. More than 160 airmen, including over 80 Americans, were sent to Buchenwald where they were beaten and starved. Their first three weeks were spent outdoors before they were crowded into a 150' x 30' hut with over 750 other prisoners. (Do the math -- you'd need over a dozen al Q'ueda in the cages at Gitmo to crowd them this much.) With no medical treatment, and no Red Cross visits or packages, these men suffered for months before they were finally moved from this SS-run death factory to a Luftwaffe-run POW camp in the fall of 1944. This was Stalag Luft III. You may know it as the camp from which The Great Escape occurred. You may also know that 50 of those escapees -- POWs all -- were murdered after they had been recaptured.

[ShaneGR]

93. Yes

True. By "half-way" decent, I meant the majority of our POWs, not all. But I understand what you're saying. Hey, I'm not defending the NAZIs!

[AP]

6. Also remings me of:

What kinds of freedoms are we securing for people when these are the tactics?

[arcane1]

2. remember- these are 'detainees', NOT prisoners, NOT combatants, NOT POW's

:puke:

[meow mix]

9. legally theres not much wiggle room there

being "under custody" is the main issue.

but i know what your saying.. i hear that being grunted now and then.

[Darranar]

11. They could well be innocent people jailed for no reason. n/t

[arcane1]

12. we've been picking up ALL military-age males, in house-to-house sweeps

and "detaining" them

that's who these men are

[Darranar]

14. Yep...

yet when the Iraqi resistance seizes hostages - basically what the US is constantly doing - there's an uproar...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. I wonder why we've also detained women and children...

...what was the excuse for detaining them?

[slackmaster]

3. Yeowza

I'm uncomfortable around police/military trained dogs even fully clothed. That man must have been terrified.

[opihimoimoi]

5. Someday, now that the Iraqis have "license", we will see photos of our

Troops, men and women, in the vice versa position.

That Rush, Hannity, et al fail to see this possibility is mind numbing.

[slackmaster]

8. You are SO right it's almost unbelievable

Agreed 100% on all points.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[opihimoimoi]

66. We should doing all we can to open peoples minds to the horrors of greed

and rationalization.

Madeness Rules under the GOP

[displacedtexan]

13. Canine slobber is unclean (Muslim faith taboo).

The threat of dying while unclean is possibly a worse form of torture to a faithful Muslim than physical pain.

[yardwork]

26. This torture was carefully planned.

Nudity, sexuality, dogs ... each of these elements inflict psychological torture on the Iraqi people specific to their cultural mores. This is in addition to the pain, fear, and despair that is common among all victims of torture.

WHY did our government do this to Iraqis? WHAT were they trying to learn? That is what I am puzzling over.

[TN al]

7. I remember freepers complaining about what children would think is ok...

...after seeing what clinton had done. Somehow that seems kind of tame after this administration showing the children what it is ok to do. Sure am glad the adults are back in charge.

[RedSock]

10. wrong place wrong time

most of the people in the prison -- according to hersh -- were just average citizens plucked off the street in sweeps.

NO ONE deserves to be treated like this but the fact that it is likely that they were just rounded up and have less than zero connection to "terror" is horrific.

and can you even imagine how this country would react if this was done by iraqis to US troops? that is exactly how these photos should be viewed.

[roguevalley]

15. I am sick about this. I'm also worried about shaming these poor people

more by putting this shit out there. These are cultures with honor killings. I just don't know what is best to not compound their humiliation.

[Piperay]

17. Yeah, where are the outcries

about "WHAT WILL WE TELL THE CHILDREN".....hmmmmmm....silence. :argh:

[snippy]

36. OxyRush say tell the kids it is just some more republican torture pranks

and that the Bush rape rooms and torture chambers are much nicer than those of the previous Iraqi dictator. As for the adults being in charge, I am reminded of this photo which I used to think was a parody.

[pnorman]

16. Do you have a URL for that photo?

I'd like to get it out to my union BBS.

pnorman

[central scrutinizer]

20. right mouse click on photo

and select properties from the dialog box to find URL with a PC. On Mac, <ctrl> mouse click and select reload image open a new window with the photo.

[pnorman]

21. I'd already done that,

and saved it to my HD. But I need a URL of some (minimum) standing to cite, since I can't send attachments to that BBS. There are a few knee-jerk jingoists there, and I don't care to get bogged down in a "chain of evidence" squabble.

I made a similar request here a few days ago (about that naked prisoner on a dog leash). Very soon after, I got the source ... it was on the front page of the on-line WP. I was hoping for the same result this time.

pnorman

[Misunderestimator]

111. What CS meant was to right click on any picture..

then choose Properties from the drop-down menu. On that popup you will see "Protocal", "Type", "Address", etc. The URL is next to the "Address". You can just cut and paste it. In this case it is:

http: //ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/IRAQ_PRISONER_ABUSE.sff_NY131_20040509114113.jpg

I added a space after http: so that you can see the address, otherwise, the picture is automatically shown instead. Just cut and paste the address from here, and remove the space.

[progressivebydesign]

18. The way that poor man is standing..

.. do you have a good idea of what the military here are suggesting the dogs bite first? seriously. The dogs are probably trained to go for the crotch first... the man looks terrified. And... I wonder what is hanging above his head.. another instrument of torture, or a noose? They have been just picking people off the streets indiscriminately, this was all before the Falluja incidents.. that's how a journalist for Al Jazeera ended up in there..

I am not one to minimize the holocaust experience by throwing the word Nazi around.. HOWEVER, someone will have to tell me how this photo looks any different from some of the Nazi photos we've seen. It's chilling..

[BigDaddyLove]

22. The thing (torture device, noose) 'hanging' above his head.........

looks to be a light switch about two feet beyond him.

This photo looks different from pictures of German atrocities circa 1944 in so many ways that it's amazing that anyone would make the enormous stretch to compare the two...but you made an effort that even Rush Limbaugh would be proud of.

[yardwork]

29. Nonsense. Your posts go to great lengths to spin this torture

as "no big deal." Where is your shame and outrage? The American government did this in your name, funded with your tax dollars. Are you proud of this behavior?

Torture is torture. There is no point in making fine distinctions. A person who has been terrorized feels pschological, emotional, and often physical pain for the rest of their lives. Do you think a torture victim cares whether it was German Nazis or American soldiers doing the brutalizing?

It's all the same, no matter where it happens or when or by whom.

I suggest you educate yourself on the real impact of torture. Try Amnesty Internation's website for a start.

[BigDaddyLove]

37. It would be easier to just ask the families.........

of the contractors who were murdered and then hung from a bridge if I wanted to see the real impact of torture.

But thanks for the suggestion.

I guess for those who think Bush is Hitler, then I suppose a naked man being scared by a dog equals a Nazi concentration camp; whatever makes you happy I guess.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. You're a real flamer, aren't you? Newsflash for BigDaddyLove....

...the contractors were ALREADY dead when they were burned, cut into pieces, dragged through the streets, and hung from the bridge.

And yes, it's just a matter of time before Junior achieves his very own Hitler Merit Badge. Too bad Grandpa Prescott is dead, he would be happy to award Junior an award like that.

By the way, it took Hitler and the Nazi Party seven years to come up with their "Final Solution"...the NeoCons have only been in power for less than four years. How much do you think they can accomplish in another four years?

You want to see pictures of Iraqis being tortured? Wait around for a few more days and let's see what else finds its way to the media.

[BigDaddyLove]

53. Please reserve your hyberbole for someone who cares..........

Hitler/Nazi/Bush/Final Solution?

Oh boy.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

88. I don't guess you've read about the Bush family connection to the...

...Nazi Party. Why am I not surprised.

Oh boy, yourself. Read it and refute it, if you can.

Standing On The Dead
<http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1052.htm>

Excerpt:

"In October of 1942, under the Trading With the Enemy Act, the U.S. government halted operations at New York's Union Banking Corporation. A bank official was charged with "Running Nazi front groups in the United States."

His name: Prescott Bush.

Prescott Bush, father of future U.S President George Herbert Walker Bush and grandfather of George W. Bush, had been hard at work on behalf of his Nazi partners. In flagrant violation of U.S. law, Prescott Bush had worked tirelessly to launder money, procure raw materials, arrange transportation and provide guidance for the Nazi war effort and the German army he had helped to build."


THE BUSH NAZI CONNECTION
<http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm>

Excerpt:

"On October 20, 1942, the US Alien Property Custodian, under the "Trading With the Enemy Act," seized the shares of the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder. The largest shareholder was E. Roland Harriman. (Bush was also the managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman, a leading Wall Street investment firm.)

The UBC was established to send American capital to Germany to finance the reorganization of its industry under the Nazis. Their leading German partner was the notorious Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, who wrote a book admitting much of this called 'I Paid Hitler.'"

....SNIP...

"Further examples would be more tedious than shocking. But, given these evil financial dealings, how did Prescott later become a Republican Senator, and George H.W. become President? Well,the two leading attorneys for these Bush-Harriman-Nazi deals were John Foster Dulles, later Secretary of State under Eisenhower, and Allen Dulles, future head of the CIA."

....SNIP....

"The elder George Bush continued the family tradition of support for totalitarian governments by supporting the Communist Chinese in the UN, and by directly aiding its military as President."


Gold Fillings, Auschwitz & George Bush
<http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/bushies.htm>

"In 1939, the Nazis invaded Poland ending a dispute over taxes between Consolidated and the Polish government. The Nazis original plan was to replace the workers in Polish factories with Soviet prisoners. However, that portion of the Hitler-Stalin agreement was never implemented. Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation was located near the Polish town of Oswiecim. When the plan to use Soviet prisoners as forced labor fell through, the Nazis began shipping Jews, communists, gypsies and other minority populations to the camp the Nazis had set up. This was the beginning of Auschwitz. The reason Auschwitz was located there was because of the abundant supplies of coal which could be processed into aviation fuel. I.G. Farben soon built a plant near Auschwitz to take advantage of not only of the nearby coal deposits but also of the slave labor supply available at Auschwitz. According to a Dutch intelligence agent, Prescott Bush managed a portion of the slave labor force in Poland.

Thyssen and Flick sold Consolidated Steel to UBC. Under the complete control of Harriman and Bush’s management, the company became Silesian American Corporation, which became part of UBC and Harriman's portfolio of 15 corporations. As the 1930s progressed and it became clearer that war was imminent, Bush and Harriman hired the Dulles brothers to conceal the Nazi money and ownership in Union Bank. In concealing the involvement of the Nazis in Union Bank, Prescott Bush and Harriman undoubtedly knew that they were already engaged in an activity that was probably illegal and certainly not in the best of interests of their country. Once war broke out however, Bush’s activities on the behalf of the Nazis through Union Banking became tantamount to treason.

The reader should understand that the concealing of Nazis assets located in the United States through a maze of corporate shells often based in Switzerland was an integral part of the German battle plan. In fact, the Nazi had a word for it, tarnung or to camouflage. The primary aim of these concealed Nazi corporations was to wage economic warfare by creating production bottlenecks for their adversary. The reader should also be aware that two Americans were present during the secret meeting of the German elite that brought Hitler to power. Those two Americans were John Foster and Allen Dulles.

Two of the directors of Union Banking Groninger and Kouwenhoven, were Nazi directors of the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, formerly the von Heydt Bank. Von Heydt was also a Nazi and has been identified as the intermediary between the Guaranty Trust and Adolf Hitler. Both Groninger and Kouwenhoven contributed lavishly to Himmler’s Circle of Friends. There were over forty firms around Auschwitz using slave labor from the death camp. Soon the Nazis had a massive store of gold from dental fillings, glasses and jewelry. The Nazis extracted the fillings of its victims after being informed by Degussa that the company could refine it into marketable gold bullion. Degussa was awarded an exclusive contract with the Nazis to refine all gold. The company was also joint owners with I.G. Farben of Degesch, a firm that produced Zyklon-B cyanide tablets used in the gas chambers. Due to the hoard of gold fillings stacking up at Auschweitz, Degussa built a smelter there. The bullion was then shipped back to Berlin and commingled with the Nazis gold stash. Undoubtedly some of it made its way back to the banker in charge of United Steel Works, Prescott Bush."

Junior hasn't fallen very far from the family tree, has he?

[TryingToWarnYou]

67. You misspelled "contractors"...

Its actually spelled "Mercenaries" If you think Im full of shit, head on over to http://www.blackwaterusa.com

The mercs in Iraq are said to be exceedingly brutal and have no ROE to follow. Do the math.

Its no surprise their corpses were mutilated, burned and hung from a bridge.

Go back to FR, please. Its quite obvious you are on the wrong board.

[BigDaddyLove]

72. Thank you for your observations..........

especially the one about me being on the wrong board.

I will take them into serious consideration.

Again, thank you.

[homelandpunk]

85. Yes!!! We can't wait!

Yes!! Yes! Please DO take into consideration you are on the wrong board. We would love to have you gone. If I saw pictures of fellow citizens like the boy who had his arms and legs blown off and had his mother and father killed, and was experiencing the invasion, I would not hesitate to mutilate a mercenaries body and hang it from a bridge. Your denial that you would not do the same or applaud the same is UTTER BULLSHIT.
The fact that you bring THAT up, is fucking apparent where you are coming from. You love neanderthal thug mercenaries, evil men who loved the rush of killing, and mourn their fucking mutilated bodies?????? AND OH! HORROR OF HORRORS: HUNG FROM.......GASP! A BRIDGE!!!
kee-riced. please go.

[TryingToWarnYou]

106. ?

What? no blind defense of the poor stressed out GI Joes and Janes that blew off some steam by torturing, humilating and in some cases, murdering those they were charged with protecting?

Youre really disappointing me.

[yardwork]

92. The deaths of mercenaries in Falluja happened months AFTER

these photos of prison atrocities were taken. It's possible that the uprising in Falluja was a direct result of prison atrocities conducted by Americans. You've got your cause and effect turned around.

[Az]

109. So were they wrong?

I mean were they wrong to torture the contractors? I am a bit confused. Its ok for us to torture their people defending their country but its wrong for them to torture armed civilians aiding the armed forces invading their country?

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that nobody should be torturing anybody. Anyone torturing someone is probably doing something wrong.

[duvinnie]

117. "contractors"

better still, why dont we ask the families of those in
South America and elsewhere whose sons and fathers were
dragged away by death squads - the graduates of which
are now apparently working as "contractors" for the military.
Contract on Iraq, anyone?

[Qanisqineq]

104. it is a light switch

Yes, that looks remarkably like a light switch with the wires running up to the ceiling behind a metal thing (I don't remember what it is called, I prefer to forget everything my electrician ex taught me). Not a noose or a torture device. A light switch.

[ForrestGump]

23. Wow, that Iraqi terrorist looks REALLY dangerous!

Good thing we had the dogs, as well as guns, on the scene.

I would hope that I don't have to employ the obnoxious </sarcasm> tag here...

[BigDaddyLove]

24. Just to be the Devil's advocate..........

Certainly the 'prisoner' doesn't look dangerous now, but what if he was captured on a rooftop with an RPG and a Hummer full of servicemen in his sites? Or accosted while en route to carry out a suicide bomb at a police station?

[Lars39]

25. That does not excuse the troops from treating them this way.

This goes against the Geneva Convention.

[BigDaddyLove]

27. So does dragging corpses through the streets before........

hanging them from a bridge.

But who's counting?

[Lars39]

34. Even if they catch the ones who did that, they should be treated as

POW under the Geneva Convention. No excuses.

[BigDaddyLove]

39. Not only that.........

they should have freshly cut flowers and homemade cookies in their cell at all times.



:eyes:

[Lars39]

43. Humane treatment is understandable to everyone but apologists.

[BigDaddyLove]

45. Well, it took far fewer posts than I thought it would before......

I was accused of being an apologist...what's next 'freeper'?

[Lars39]

46. Not unless you're outing yourself.

[BigDaddyLove]

50. Good one.........

No, us 'undercover operatives' never come right and say it, we just continuously allude to it; the code of conduct is on page 1 of the 'Freeper Handbook' that we're all issued.

[maxrandb]

116. Why don't you study the real Code of Conduct

Those of us in the military are required to learn it and to abide by the Geneva Convention. Love your argument by the way. Let me see if I get this straight. This mis-administration has reduced us to saying "well, we're not as bad as Saddam". You are pitiful. America used to stand for something. Since I was a kid, I've been told that America was different, we stood against tyranny, we stood against human rights violations, we were the ones wearing the "White Hats". I'm not naive. I know that we have or own not so stellar past and also present with racism, despotism, colonialism, etc., but bit by bit we learned from that. Bit by bit we progressed. Bit by bit we changed our attitudes, and for the most part the world looked to us as a beacon hope and promise. Now in one fell swoop, with a 5 - 4 vote of unelected judges, with one image of brutality after another, we have become a place that is now content to be judged as "Better than Saddam" I for one refuse to accept or stand for how far we have fallen.

Here's the Code. Look especially at Art VI. A military should have a government it can be proud of. Not the other way around

Art I: I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

Art II: I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never Surrender my men while they still have the means to resist.

Art III: If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

Art IV: If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Art V: When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am bound to give only name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

Art VI: I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. Okay...since you brought it up...are you a freeper?

[BigDaddyLove]

51. Yes, yes I am.........

Democrats suck!!!! Democrats suck!!!!!

:eyes:

[Zero Gravitas]

38. The world is watching

I thought we were supposed to be the good guys, but you seem to imply that if the other sides acts like barbarians then its OK for us to do the same. I disagree. The US (pre-Bush* at least) is better than that.

[BigDaddyLove]

44. David Koresh would probably have to disagree with you.......

on how our government acted preBush.

War sucks, and this 'torture' episode is incredibly tame compared to what goes on in a war day in and day out; I am frankly astonished about the 'out-cry' over it, and I think it's embarrassing that Democrats are screaming from the rooftops for Rumsfeld to resign; it's nonsense.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. Have you ever been in a war,....

...or are you just another big brave chickenhawk?

Personally, I think you're an embarrassment to this board and yourself...you should be ashamed.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zero Gravitas]

57. I still think we're better than this

You obviously disagree. I suppose you would do the same to these "terrorists"?

[BigDaddyLove]

64. You know, it's funny..........

For the most part on this board there is daily bitching and moaning about how horrible America is, that our government MIHOP etc., etc., and the constant derision of the right for proclaiming that this country is the greatest in the world.

And yet, when something like this happens, everyone is all a-flutter saying how 'we're better than this', and how this is an aberration of some sort.

I'm just shocked at how anyone can possibly be surprised by something this minor compared to the heavy shit we are legitimately responsible for.

[Norquist Nemesis]

96. Part of the heavy shit we're responsible for

as you point out, is what's going on in the prisons. While equating it with the contractors, is it even remotely conceivable to you that the actions that angry mob took may have been partly fueled by the treatment of detainees? The fact that we just found out about it in no way means that the same is true of the Iraqis. I suspect they knew it long before us and the word on the street was even more horrific than we can imagine.

[wtmusic]

99. Obviously you haven't been here long

'Daily bitching and moaning about how horrible America is'.

That's a typical view of someone who really doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. I would like to see 1 (one) post on DU which talks about America being horrible.

What we do talk a helluva lot about is how horrible this administration is. And it's this administration that's responsible for this illegal, immoral war and all the atrocities like this 'minor' one which go along with it.

[yardwork]

95. If you are embarrassed by the public outcry over the torture pics

how do you feel about your president's reaction? He said the pictures made him "sick to his stomach."\

Aren't you calling your president a wimp if you think that outrage over the pictures is a sign of wimpiness?

[ColdWarZoomie]

48. Hanging From the Bridge

First, the contractors were killed during an ambush. Second, an angry mob hanged the corpses from the bridge.

In this case, the individual is in a US government run institution being terrorized by US government soldiers and most likely a US government contractor/interrogator months before the Falluja incident.

And since when are our standards based on mob brutality rather than the rule of law as framed by our own Constitution?

[JanMichael]

83. NOT THE SAME THING! ORGANISED MILITARY NOT SAME AS...

...UNORGANIZED VIOLENCE.

FUCK SAKE I'M GETTING TIRED OF HEARING "dragging corpses through the streets", IT's A STUPID COMPARISON AND IRRELEVANT ARGUMENT.

[ShaneGR]

94. That happened AFTER this abuse

In fact, many of the same people who did that in Fallujah were formely detained at that prison! Ironic, don't you think?

[MadHound]

110. Gee, much like we paraded the sons of Saddam around

And then splashed their bodies across worldwide television.

And there is a huge difference between mutilating dead bodies(the US mercs) and mutilating live ones.

The fact that you are advocating this kind of tit for tat, oneupsmanship of the pain and torture being handed out over in Iraq tells me more about the sad state of your soul and morals than I really cared to know. Have you not thought that this also gives license to the Iraqi resistance to torture, rape and murder US POWs? Would you like the next picture of sadistic cruelty that you see feature an American man or woman as the subject of the pain?

Get a clue friend, there is no NO excuse for the kind of actions we are seeing here. Trying to explain it or spin it away reveals much about yourself, and quite frankly, it isn't pretty.

[maggrwaggr]

28. So what if he was????

You don't treat POW's that way!

What plant are you from, Big Daddy?

[BigDaddyLove]

31. If you meant planet, then earth..........

If you did indeed mean plant, then I'm not entirely sure and I'll have to get back to you.

[Walt Starr]

30. I can think of only one thing more disgusting than the torture of POWs

Any asshole idiotic enough to defend the torturers is far more disgusting.

[BigDaddyLove]

33. Sorry homeslice..........

that picture doesn't look too much like torture to me.

But go on with your bad self....and here I thought only 'freepers' called people names.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. That picture is one of a series of 24...I guess you want to see the one...

...that shows what the guy looked like AFTER the dogs worked him over.

[BigDaddyLove]

58. Oh no, an actual dog bite..........

Too much, too much.

Maybe they made a bee sting him too...no, that would be going too far.

[meow mix]

59. hi rush, hows your rehab going

one day at a time huh..

[BigDaddyLove]

61. Best. Reply. Ever.

.

[Catherine Vincent]

90. How would you like to be standing there naked

with two big german shepherds waiting to bite your penis off?

[elf]

86. Are you nuts..................??????????????????

Look it up, The Geneva Convention clearly will tell you, what's torture and everything else you should know.

I'm German, born 1951 and we learned it at school in "Ethics" (free choice of class instead of "Religion")

[Zero Gravitas]

35. What if

like most of the prisoners, he was just some guy in the wrong place at the wrong time held for months without charge and horribly mistreated?

IF he was "captured on a rooftop with an RPG and a Hummer full of servicemen in his sites" then he would be a POW and should not be treated in this way either. Would be acceptable for Iraqis (or anyone else) to treat a US serviceman in this way if the GI had been caught with a RPG that he was about to fire at the enemy?

[BigDaddyLove]

41. So far, most of the folks that the Iraqis have captured........

haven't faired all that well have they?

[ColdWarZoomie]

55. What Standards Should we Follow?

Should we, or should we not, be a nation that upholds the rule of law?

[BigDaddyLove]

60. We should be a nation that upholds the rule of law........

But we aren't, and we haven't been for centuries.

Does this come as a surprise? Why is everyone so horrified by this, and not the myriad of other crap that is far, far worse that we've done?

You know, like the fact that we're in Iraq in the first place?

[ColdWarZoomie]

62. What's Your Point?

I can't figure out what you're trying to say:

That this isn't any big deal because we've screwed up in the past? That we shouldn't try to uphold the rule of law because our enemies don't? That we should give up on any standards of humane behavior because others don't try?

What EXACTLY is your point?

[Zero Gravitas]

65. His point

appears to be that its ok to mistreat people who are in the same country as other people who may have mistreated Americans.

[ColdWarZoomie]

69. His Point...

...was to stir it up.

But he wasn't willing to just admit it.

Fact is, there's no "devil's advocate" counterargument for this behavior.

None.

[BigDaddyLove]

74. Nope.

.

[BigDaddyLove]

73. Nope.

.

[BigDaddyLove]

70. As I've had to fight back the attack dogs this evening.......

my position has changed to include a number of things, as more and more people decided that they could read my mind and see into my black heart.

But to help you understand:

1. Originally, I objected to someone comparing this incident to Nazi Germany...which is ridiculous.

2. I then simply pointed out that the prisoner in the picture probably isn't as 'innocent' as everyone thinks, and that in my opinion this isn't 'torture'.

3. At this point I found myself having to defend 'torture' somehow.

4. Further, I mentioned that I'm amazed at the 'outrage' over something so minor compared to the much larger damage that we've done, and that for a group of people who generally hold America in such low regard it's interesting that now that this has surfaced they all think 'we should be better than this', as if they're generally surprised that War is ugly and that sometimes shit like this happens.

I'm sure there was more, but I'm getting of typing.

[ColdWarZoomie]

76. OK

1. At the state level, you are right - comparison is ridiculous. For these incidents, however, I can see where they're coming from.

2. Problem is, up to 60% of the detainees according to the report were not a threat and of no use for intel. So we must assume otherwise, as well. And I think this would qualify under the Geneva Convention's definition of torture.

3. That's life.

4. This isn't minor. We could lose the entire operation due to these photos. This is just another rallying point.

Outta here.

[yardwork]

98. Welcome to DU ColdWarZoomie!

[Zero Gravitas]

77. We hold the actions of the government in low regard

not the country. This "liberals hate America" bullshit is pure Freeper-thinking.

[yardwork]

97. You call our disagreements with you "attack dogs"

yet you are unconcerned about real attack dogs. Shrug icon.

[FreeSpeechCrusader]

115. How did they make you feel that you were "having to defend 'torture'"?

Did they have two big ass german shephards snipping at your balls?

[SidDithers]

114. Like Jessica Lynch?

Oh, wait, she was stripped naked and had dogs attacking her too.

Nevermind.

[LibertyorDeath]

63. Then you lock him up as a prisoner of war

You don't start with the SS shit He will tell you anything at this point you name it. Who shot Kennedy he's got the answer.

So what the fuck are you left with Your left with your own Sadistic pleasure.

Is that what American Troops were sent to Iraq for?

No .....So what the fuck are you left with and what the fuck are you talking about.

If the situation was reversed here and this was an American prisoner
being treated like this you'd be yelling Nukem all
Uh huh.

No Soup For You 3 Years

[BigDaddyLove]

75. I wonder how much he would have said........

if they just baked him cookies instead.

SS shit? Come on now.

[ColdWarZoomie]

78. You're Assuming...

...he had something to say.

You don't know. And the intel folks didn't either.

But even if you personally do not see anything wrong with this from a moral standpoint, this is NOT how you win against an insurgency from a practical standpoint.

The majority in Iraq want us out, and that was BEFORE these pics came out. Some of the tortured were released and eve the Pres has offered compensation. What does that tell you?

Nothing to defend. Moot.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ColdWarZoomie]

82. I'll Take That as No Counterpoint

Why bother responding if you have nothing to say?

Cheers.

[BigDaddyLove]

84. I was gonna ask you the same question.........

A long time ago.

But you keep coming back. Go, and stay gone. :hi:

[rumguy]

79. It has been proven that some of the prisoners in the torture incidents

did not have any info. they were hiding...they were innocents who were rounded up and packed in there

[BigDaddyLove]

81. It's a little tough to armchair things from here..........

Those soldiers have been shot at nonstop for a year, I don't think they want to take the chance that the person they let go because he looks 'innocent' blows them up later in the afternoon.

This way they know for sure.

[rumguy]

89. Innocents were tortured

enough said...

[Don Claybrook]

91. Why are you here?

You really seem to detest progressive thought. You advocate for hatred and violence. If it's that bad for you, why stay? Why don't you just go the fuck away and tell your pals how you did such a number on us. Go ahead, I'm sure they'll believe you anyway. You can be the big man on campus. But here, at Democratic Underground, you'll never succeed in convincing anyone else that torturing innocents is something in which we should be engaged, something we should support.

What is it you hope to accomplish here?

[TryingToWarnYou]

108. He sure acts like a Freeper Troll.

Why the mods havent 86'ed this guy yet, I cant even begin to guess.

[TryingToWarnYou]

107. Theres some logic...

By your logic, we should kill all of the Iraqis then "just to be sure".

Can you show me where those accused of torturing these Iraqis had been shot at for over a year? I dont see too many firefights going on inside that prison...

Even if they had been shot at, NOBODY has the right to torture another person. Heres a clue: They earned what they have coming.

[SidDithers]

112. Or buying a loaf of bread in the market...

Or sleeping in his bed, when burst in upon, and taken into custody for no reason....

Sid

[Misunderestimator]

113. Or what about he ('the prisoner') was just innocently driving his own car

and was taken to prison because he was missing his ownership papers for the car, like the one that was interviewed who was in one of the first photos. He was RELEASED and absolved of any wrongdoing earlier this year after serving months in prison and ending up in these wonderful torture photos.

You can find the thread here if you care to search. I've already read it, so I'm not going to bother finding it for you.

[fishnfla]

40. Who is the f%%kstick in the black coat and glasses?

I'd like to wipe my ass with his face

[rumguy]

71. Probably one of our "civilian contractors" or mercs

as anyone sane calls them....

You and I are paying their generous salaries...

[yardwork]

100. Black glasses seems to be pointing to the floor

in front of the naked man. It looks like they want the naked man to lie down on the floor so that the dogs can work him over. The naked man seems to be screaming. The fact that he is holding his head implies to me that he has already been hit in the head, and he is trying to defend himself against another blow to the head. Meanwhile, the dogs are held on either side of him.

There is no audio for this picture, but if we look at what is happening in this split-second shot, it is obvious that there was a cacophany of noise. Men screaming, dogs barking and snarling.

I don't know what happened to this man after this photograph was taken. I don't want to know.

The whole world is probably asking themselves what happened to this naked man in the minutes after this photograph was taken.

[boobooday]

68. Really, in all my life

I've never seen this kind of shame brought upon my country.

Disgrace. Ignominy.



http://www.wgoeshome.com

[elf]

87. If this is not TORTURE

what else????

[Th1onein]

101. I'm sorry, but I no longer support our troops.

I don't support their leaders, and I don't support them. Period. There are a few that may be decent human beings; that haven't been turned into monsters, but the fact is that when you learn to kill and you learn war, it takes away a lot of that decency. I don't support the troops, however "unpatriotic" that might sound. I don't care.

I am a citizen of the world. Not a citizen of the United States.

[Beaker]

102. why are they making him dance like the guy in "Silence of the Lambs"?

nt

[ShaneGR]

105. Actually

I think he tucked it in for fear of the dogs biting it.

[DemExpat]

103. I did not think I could feel more appalled ......but each month

passing proves that my horror and dread capacity keeps on expanding!

Not surprised at all about developments in Iraq AND in our government, but it makes me physically and mentally ill to see it all unfolding.
(With little resistance from our country and the world, which feels even worse).

:puke: :puke: :puke:

DemEx