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Let's cut to the chase: Does this torture scandal go all the way BUSH ?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:09 PM
Original message
Let's cut to the chase: Does this torture scandal go all the way BUSH ?
Edited on Sun May-09-04 04:15 PM by kentuck
After all, we know it was his decision not to abide by the rules of the Geneva Convention in Afghanistan. Because they wanted the ability to try people with military tribunals. They did not want Osama going to the World Court if he was captured.

Also, we all know the arrogant style with which Junior carries himself. He's been portrayed as a "cowboy" all around the world. The question is, "Has this attitude affected the troops that are under his command?" Do they have a similar attitude to that of their Commander-in-Chief?

As of this moment, we do not know who authorized the torture techniques in Abu Ghraib and Bucca, and perhaps other places in Iraq. But, isn't it logical that the Commander-in-Chief would have the final say-so in any changes in military process or activities? Would not Bush have known about these civilian interrogators in these prisons and what type of torture techniques they were using? Common sense would say that he did.

Can America restore its honor and credibility simply by letting Donald Rumsfeld or some General resign? Most of the world understands that the policy taking place in Afghanistan and Iraq is the policy of George W Bush. It is doubtful they woud be appeased by any resignation of any Bush official, since they believe the main culprit is George w Bush himself.

(edit "were" to "was")
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. It came DOWN from Bush. It should go UP to Bush. n/t
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. let's play, 'if it had been clinton'................
he'd have already been hung from a tree
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Do you have a website, Mo Paul?
I'd love to see more of your moving pix :)
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benddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Of course it does
These troops had to have the idea they had tacit approval for their actions...otherwise they wouldn't have been so public about it.
They had lousy leadership from the top down.
:crazy:
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Randers Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. yes...n/t
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yes, unquestionably.
Bush set the tone, made the culture, declared this a crusade, his actions (inactions rather) toward Isreal's treatment of Palestinian civilian's which cast them in sub-human light have all contributed greatly to the willingness to torture non-americans.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. He said BRING IT ON and his staff brought it on.
He thinks he should get the credit for things that are really lies

Does that mean he should not be blamed when he can't lie?

That would be their twisted way of addressing it.
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JPJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. One way to find out
Look to see if that part of the daily briefing has been colored in.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. YES
but we all know Clinton will be blamed somehow.
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KayLaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. If you're interested
The St. Pete times has two editorials today that do point the finger his way.

www.sptimes.com
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. In Florida, nonetheless....
The last state that Bush wants that type of publicity..
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Gothmog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes, clearly the tone was set by Bush
Bush set the stage for the torturegate scandal starting with the decision to ignore the Geneva Convention and international law for the Afghan detainees. Then Bush decided to invade Iraq without UN approval or support which is clear violation of international law. Next Bush put tremendous pressure on MI to find WMD and Saddam and enhanced interrogation techniques were authorized.

All of these decisions contributed to the massive scandal now coming to light. Bush is directly responsible for these decisions and must bear the consequences of his actions.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Duh
The most senior leader is ALWAYS responsible for their decisions and resulting outcome, good or bad.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well Chenney, Rove, and Perle...
So yeah, basically Bush.
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Shadder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'd say yes also
If he is the Commander-in-Chief then the buck should stop with him. As much as he would like it, you cannot have it both ways

Read the Abu Ghraib Timeline:
http://www.savinggraves.org/timeline/index.htm
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. If we had not invaded Iraq
would we be talking about this?
Obviously not.
Who was the one so hot to topple Saddam?
It's Bush*s buck, but it's not stopping anywhere.
It's called "passing the buck".
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. I believe the torture of the Iraqis was all planned out in advance
of the War.

The whole thing smacks of Racism...

and too many arrows of secrecy surrounding the scandal.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
16. That's why they put a bobble-head in the office...
Edited on Sun May-09-04 04:21 PM by Junkdrawer
After Nixon, they vowed to keep the Presidency free of actual leaders. Ford, Reagan, hell, many Republicans must have see Bush I as a scary move...
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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. He is so fond of saying, "My War"...
so, of course he gets the blame for all of it!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well currently it goes all the way to Feith specifically
& from Feith to Bush it's just a hop, skip and a jump.

==============

riverwalker (406 posts)
Fri May-07-04 07:46 PM
Original message
JAG: it reaches Douglas Feith



Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon

Bar Association: Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon Appointees
Salon is reporting that a report compiled by the Committee on International Law of the New York City Bar Association has found that the American military's treatment of detainees and prisoners of war in Afghanistan, Cuba and Iraq violates international law — and the compilers of the report say that the techniques employed by interrogators at prisons such as Abu Ghraib were "sanctioned by Pentagon political appointees."

Joe Conason of Salon reports that Scott Horton, a partner at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler and chair of the Committee on International Law was told by "senior" members of the Judge Advocate General Corps that high ranking political appointees were behind the abuse. Says Conason:

http://www.warblogging.com/



    Lack of protection

    <snip>

    Indeed, Horton says that the JAG officers specifically warned him that Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith,one of the most powerful political appointees in the Pentagon, had significantly weakened the military's rules and regulations governing prisoners of war. The officers told Horton that Feith and the Defense Department's general counsel, William J. Haynes II, were creating "an atmosphere of legal ambiguity" that would allow mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.


    Douglas Feith, President Bush's Undersecretary of Defense for Policy — and number three man at the Pentagon — reportedly summed up Protocol One of the Geneva Conventions of 1977 as "law in the service of terrorism".

    In the past, Conason writes, all interrogations conducted by military personnel were monitored by a member of the Judge Advocate General corps from behind a two-way mirror. All interrogations were monitored, and the JAG officer was "emplowered to stop any misconduct". But senior Pentagon officials removed that requirement. :wow: Not only did JAG officers no longer monitor interrogations, but private military contractors were allowed to conduct interrogations.

    <snip>

    After hearing the complaints of the JAG officers, Horton and his bar colleagues wrote to Haynes and the CIA's general counsel in an effort to clarify U.S. policy on the treatment and interrogation of detainees. Those inquiries, he recalls, "were met with a firm brushoff. We then turned to senators who had raised the issue previously, and assisted their staff in pursuing the issue directly with the Pentagon. These inquiries met with a similar brushoff." The Bush administration wanted no meddling by human rights lawyers as it brought democracy and human rights to the benighted region.

    <snip>

    Horton says that career military officers at the Pentagon were "greatly upset" by what they regarded as the deliberate destruction of traditions and methods that have long protected soldiers as well as civilians. Those officers, and others who may have evidence to offer, are obviously reluctant to step forward and speak because they fear reprisal from the Pentagon and the White House. They have been instructed not to talk to anyone about these issues. It is to be hoped that in the investigations to come -- whether or not Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld and Undersecretary Feith keep their jobs -- those conscientious officers will be able to tell what they know about the decisions that led to this national disaster.


    <snip>

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/05/07/rights/index.html


They're going down. The entire house of cards is CRASHING down.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Better subpoena the records now..
there are severe racial undertones in the torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners. The unified actions of several prisons suggest they are working from a blueprint for torture.

Who created the blueprint?
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. "Bring it on" it's that whole cowboy asshole mentality.
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