On Gun Control vs Prohibition

[drdigi420]

Outlawing guns doesn't stop anyone from owning a gun if they want one. All outlawing guns does is provide one more product for the black market to thrive on.

It's the same with outlawing drugs. It only makes the drugs, and their effects on both the user and society, much, much worse.

We need to address the underlying causes for violence in our society rather than focusing on the tools used to commit the violence.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to live in a world free of guns, but that is a fantasy, and is simply unattainable. Worse than that, attempts to create this fantasy world have had very bad unintended consequences, namely criminal markets and the crime and violence surrounding them. The same happens when you try to outlaw any product, be it drugs, guns, gambling, or prostitution.

We should learn our lessons from other failed prohibitions and realize that, even with a drug as dangerous and deadly as alcohol, outlawing it was not the answer, it only made things worse.

Outlawing guns does not control them, it relinquishes control to criminals. Legal and regulated markets for guns, drugs, gambling, and prostitution are much more desirable than their current illegal counterparts, which are free of controls for safety, purity, and authenticity, as well as policed by violence rather than courts.

Let's make sure every gun is safe to fire, and comes with warnings and provide education on the real dangers of guns. Let's make sure gun manufacturers are not exploiting their workers. Let's make it easier to prosecute people that do not control their guns, and make them responsible for crimes committed with them. But most of all, let's make sure that people have jobs, and hope, and a future, and, therefore, are much less likely to pick up a gun in the first place.

We can begin by ending the war on drugs. Legalize, regulate, tax, and educate. I can absolutely "ga-ron-tee" that gun violence will drop once the criminal markets for drugs are made obsolete and addicts won't have to resort to crime to pay prohibition-inflated prices for their drugs.

Isn't violence the real issue here? Not so much the tools used?

[billbuckhead]

1. Gee it sure works in Scandinavia and Hawaii

Alcohol and weed have been around since the beginning of man and can be manufactured in ones backyard or garage. An ak47 has only been around for 50 years and can only be made in a factory. Huge difference.

[drdigi420]

3. actually

guns and other weapons of similar destructive and deadly capability are readily made in one's backyard and many more will be if the outlawing of guns does indeed occur

[wuushew]

8. How much longer do you expect people to retain machining skills?

in our post industrial service based economy soon the only thing people will know how do is flip burgers. A good set of machine tools cost a pretty penny(even stamping presses for making shitty guns).

AK-47s are plentiful and cheap because they were manufactured by the MILLIONS using assembly line techniques. Rednecks, criminals and Waco types are not going to do this.

[john Q2]

10. Sorry your wrong

Ak's can be esily constructed using a drill,hammer, punch, bar clamp and rivoting device. Dont kid yourself once guns are outlawed it will only motivate people to build them and chances are they will build full auto AK's instead of semi auot AK's.
John

[wuushew]

13. That type of cottage industry reflects 19th century conditions

lack of interchangable parts and low output.

Be my guest and feel free to manufacture one that you would feel safe using. Can you give me a cost estimate for labor and parts and how many you could manufacture in a year?

[billbuckhead]

18. It's very hard to build an assault rifle from scratch in a garage

One would need a huge stamping machine & tens of thousands of dollars of equipment. Multiples harder than a meth lab or even making LSD

[WVhill]

32. That's the key: "from scratch"

Even the Afghans who used to build firearms under primitive conditions produced Enfield copies from scrounged materials. If I recall there was a National Geographic article that had pictures of an Afghani gunsmithing on a dirt floor. All those who think it takes megabucks for the equipment haven't read the how-to magazine articles that have been published. If you're going to build thousands of weapons on an assembly line, yes, you need lots of money.

To build a weapon from scrap materials, hand tools and improvised fixtures takes more perseverance than anything else. Even rifling a barrel isn't rocket science. A local old-timer always shows up each year at a festival and demonstrates his methods and hand tools.

To make it simpler yet, you'd be surprised how many individuals have relatively inexpensive 50 and 60 year old machine tools sitting in the basement or garage. The thing about the old tools is that they were built much better/heavier than modern machines. I can't count the times I've walked into someone's garage and seen an old Delta or Sears Craftsman lathe sitting in a bench.

One guy, a job welder, had a lathe big enough to build a cannon. Of course it took up one whole garage bay. For those without three phase power, a convertor can be built out of an electric motor. The directions are available from eBay.

[billbuckhead]

42. An Enfield isn't in the same class as a AK47 let alone whats available now

One could make something similar to model A in ones garage but not a Lexus

[WVhill]

45. Depends on what you mean by class Bill.

Weren't you concerned about so-called sniper rifles? An Enfield can reach out and punch someone's ticket farther than an AK47. The .303 is a common hunting round. During deer season Walmart has plenty of .303 ammo on the shelves. If bolt actions were so passe, the military wouldn't be using them for sniper rifles.

[Political_Junkie]

2. Yes,

prohibition is never an answer. Just watched "Bowling for Columbine" last night, highly recommend it to anyone who is trying to understand why there are so many killings in America.

[Columbia]

16. What was the answer?

So why are there so many killings in America?

[wuushew]

24. Many answers

1. Wealth inequity

2. Racism

3. Excessive religiosity

4. Ignorance/lack of public education

5. Inadequate health care

6. General fuckupidness

[Columbia]

25. Thank you

Nothing to do with guns at all.

[billbuckhead]

26. Countrys and states with a lot of guns have a lot of guncrime

It's obviuos. Thers less murders in Japan or Sweden than middle size progun southernUSA cities. It's completely dishonest to no acknowlege that guns exacerbate crime. About 2years ago some wack in England got loose in church with a big sword hurt a bunch of people and at about the same time a wack got loose in church in Texas with gun and hurt people. The hurt people in England lived and most of the hurt people in Texas died. Gunsare far more effective at killing people than swords, it's obvious to everyone who open their eyes.

[Columbia]

27. You disagree with Michael Moore then

He states that guns are not the problem as he shows how Canada has plenty access to guns and ammunition and has fewer gun related crimes.

Also, look at countries like Switzerland where every household has a fully automatic machine gun and see how little gun crim they have as well.

Culture has infinitely more to do with crime than the tools available.

edit fer diction

[billbuckhead]

30. Yeah I wish we had the same situation as Switzerland

They count the bullets and one has a close to impossible task to get a handguns. Yes, I disagree with Michael Moore. And once again I wish we have the same situation as Canada where they are registering guns. It's interesting how gunners cherrypick statistics and situations.

[Columbia]

31. You want Canadian style registration?

I'm sure they'd want you to take it from them then. It's proven to be upwards of a billion dollar boondoggle. Do you want to spend a few billion here in the US too to do absolutely nothing? I'd think all that money would be better spent on healthcare and education, but I guess since I'm a pro-gunner that means I'm a right-wing hack anyway right?

Also, the only rounds counted are the ones they are issued to ensure that they have the minimum ammunition required by law. They can buy and shoot for training/pleasure all they want.

"It's interesting how gunners cherrypick statistics and situations."

That's funny you say that because I was just responding to YOUR cherrypicking to provide a more comprehensive picture of the situation and now you accuse ME of it?

edit fer spellin'

[WVhill]

41. Not true Bill!

Take a look at the crime statistics for West Virginia. BTW, you'd be surprised to find out how many firearms are owned by residents.

[Political_Junkie]

29. And the media

they're culpable too, for instilling fear in the American people.

[Columbia]

34. Personally

I believe the most blame should be placed on gangs and gang violence.

And I blame gangs and gang violence on the War on Drugs.

[Bombtrack]

4. Gun control does not outlaw guns

does it outlaw SOME guns, yeah. But it does not outlaw guns. The NRA "pro-gun" movement continually operates on this kind of dishonesty. Shame on you for continuing it.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[billbuckhead]

7. I'm for prohibition of high output weapons and sniper rifles

If local communities want to have actual well regulated militias with these weapons, I'd look at that.

[drdigi420]

9. wouldnt regulating those weapons be smarter?

than simply turning over their market to criminals?

You dont really believe that outlawing them would eliminate them do you?

[billbuckhead]

11. What good can thse miltary type weapons be?

Wouldn't society be freer and safer if the police could arrest someone carrying one of these semiWMD's around or caught buying one? AlQueda used these type weapons to gun down over 50 tourists in Egypt and one day we will feel the sting of one of these kind of attacks. What's to stop AlQueda from going into a store buying these weapons legally and catching hundreds of Americans in a traffic jam or an event and mowing down hundreds. At least if it's illegal they could be caught in a sting or turned into authoritioes by co-operative mafia types.

[Catholic Sensation]

15. did the million mom march thread get locked or something

why isn't this discussion going on there?

[slackmaster]

22. The MMM was a bust, and the thread got co-opted

By the usual crowd that turns every gun-related thread into a name-calling session.

[slackmaster]

20. The core myth about "assault weapons" raises its ugly head AGAIN

AlQueda used these type weapons to gun down over 50 tourists in Egypt and one day...

Wrong again, Bill. Those were fully automatic weapons.

[FeebMaster]

14. Could you define sniper rifle and high output weapon? (nt)

[slackmaster]

17. What's the difference between a hunting rifle and a sniper rifle?

Specifics, please.

:dunce:

[billbuckhead]

21. I guess many sickos use a Barret 50cal to hunt deer

Like shooting groundhogs with a Ak47

[slackmaster]

23. Can you PLEASE just answer the question for once, Bill?

You're very adept at expressing emotion but your posts are almost always devoid of rationality.

What's the difference between a hunting rifle and a sniper rifle?

[WVhill]

39. Bill, I know you mean well.

But current military rifles issued to the troops are closer to a .22, that kids still carry around here, than the .30-06s and .308s that the military used for much of the last century. If you're familiar with hunting, no hunter is going to lug a Barrett that weighs close to 50 lbs into the woods to hunt deer. Hunters usually go for the lightest rifle that will maintain recoil at a reasonable level. That means something that weighs less than 10 lbs. I see lots of rifles show up in the want ads. They all share a reputation for heavy recoil. Usually the owner goes through one box of cartridges and gets rid of the rifle. BTW, those deer rifles are "higher powered" than most of the military stuff.

I've seen pictures of a Barrett being fired. The shooter's face looks like one of those pictures of an astronaut's face on a rocket sled. At $2.00 a shot, 50 cal. centerfire rifles aren't flying out of the stores. In fact, I've never seen one in a gun shop. At around $8,000 each for a semi-auto Barrett, you can bet money very few dealers even stock them. They're like Ferraris. You're not going to find one of those at your local dealer unless you live in a very upscale area.

As for a terrorist buying one from a dealer, chances are less than slim to none. I'm guessing you've never bought a firearm from a dealer within the past few years.

[billbuckhead]

44. Why should Barret rifle be sold to the public if it's useless for hunting

It's going to be used to kill people

[FeebMaster]

46. How many people in the US have been killed with

Barret rifles?

[billbuckhead]

48. How many were killed with Mannlicher Carcanos?

How many do you need? It's been said the beltway snipers caused more terror than 9-11 and someone with one these super weapons might just kill the next JFK or MLK. If they're not good for hunting or defending ones home, why have them available?

[FeebMaster]

51. Are you incapable of answering a question?

"How many were killed with Mannlicher Carcanos?"

I guess that depends on who you ask.


"How many do you need?"

One might be nice for starters.

"It's been said the beltway snipers caused more terror than 9-11 and someone with one these super weapons might just kill the next JFK or MLK."

Except the beltway snipers used a post-ban AR-15. JFK was killed with a $20 war surplus gun, not even a good one. MLK was killed with a hunting rifle.

"If they're not good for hunting or defending ones home, why have them available?"

If you want to ban something, you need a better reason than you don't think anyone needs them.

[billbuckhead]

54. How many people have been killed by A-Bombs in the United States?

I guess we should legallize them as well since no one has been killed by one.

[FeebMaster]

56. That is a blatant McFeeb's Law violation.

We're talking about firearms here, specifically Barret .50 caliber rifles in this subthread.

[billbuckhead]

63. I'm talking about preventing terror like the beltway snipers

and the Barrett rifle and it's ilk extends the range of terror so why would it be allowed? Unless someone enjoys the ability to a terrorist?

[FeebMaster]

65. Yet, you still haven't provided a single instance where someone

has been killed with a Barret rifle. They've been around for some time.

[WVhill]

64. LOL Bill.

There's a big difference between a radiation source and a firearm cartridge.

[WVhill]

50. Do you think Bill would be upset if he found out that

Some folks own 20MM weapons. Those make a Barrett look like a peashooter. Here's the magazine for one. "http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=18398612"Compare the size to the truck tailgate it's sitting on.

[FeebMaster]

53. I'd like to get a Solothurn.

Out of my price range, though.

[WVhill]

55. Way beyond mine too.

If a .50 cal goes for $2.00 a shot can you imagine a 20mm? I'm guessing you're smoking a twenty dollar bill every time you pull the trigger not to mention the medical bills if you fire it repeatedly. It might be fun to try just once.

[FeebMaster]

60. They have one here for $28,000.

http://www.urban-armory.com/class3.htm

No idea if that's a good price.

[WVhill]

66. Damn! I missed out on the GE mini-gun.

I guess I'll have to settle on buying the Gatling gun for deer season.

[FeebMaster]

74. Can you imagine dropping a quarter million dollars

down on that thing. Not to mention the cost of ammo.

[WVhill]

76. Nope!

[WVhill]

47. It's the challenge.

Some folks like to shoot at long ranges. Does it make sense to lug around a 50lb rifle with a muzzle blast that comes close to deafening anyone nearby? A Barrett isn't a takedown firearm that's easily concealed by a terrorist.

Besides that, the recoil and muzzle blast make it very difficult to get off succeeding accurate shots if you're planning on using it on moving targets like people.

Allowing the public to buy a Barrett, as long as they meet the federal requirements and pass the background check, is no more dangerous than allowing a licensed driver with insurance to buy a sports car with a 140+ mph top speed. Why allow a car with that kind of capability when the top speed limits are so such lower? Why? Because some folks like to drive them.

[billbuckhead]

49. Actually most modern cars have speed limiters built into their software

You gunners should know by now you always lose when y'all compare guns to cars. Cars have to have registration and drivers testing and insurance and manufacturers aren't immune from lawsuits and one would go to jail for felony speeding driving one on the street over 90 mph.

[WVhill]

52. That's exactly right Bill.

And folks go to jail for killing whether it's with a car or a firearm. As for the limitation thing, you need to check the car magazines. You can buy anything you want to reprogram an engine's ECU.

[billbuckhead]

58. If you want void your warranty and you still get felony speeding

and insurance revoked or a least screwed up. I'd love to see guns treated like cars. It would be a damn good start. Car owners at least pay for some of the mess they make in the form of taxes and fees. Let's face it, in todays present sytem gunners are mooches. MOOCHES.

[WVhill]

61. That's not true either Bill.

Research the excise tax on firearms. You're in for a surprise.

[billbuckhead]

69. Does it pay for the $100 billion? Does it pay hospital bills?

Does it pay for the emergency room at Grady hospital here in Atlanta? Why should I have to pay it?

[WVhill]

72. What's the $100 billion Bill? ntx

[MrBenchley]

36. Exactly so...

[Columbia]

37. However...

MrBenchley, do YOU want possession of all guns by civilians outlawed?

[wuushew]

5. It is possible to have a successful draconian society

example being Singapore, although I would quickly tire of the canings, use of live ammunition during conscription drills and threat of execution for possessing marijuana. As long as they have their money I guess they are happy with the status quo.

[john Q2]

12. Yea lets have a Draconian society!!

Could you plese pass me the crack pipe??
John

[wuushew]

19. I never said "I" wanted to live there

but the fact that Singapore is a rich, successful, free of genocide as well as tyranny certainly throws a wrench in the rightwing talking points that repressive societies are doomed to fascism.

[immoderate]

28. I heard that...

...chewing gum, or eating in the wrong place can get you arrested in Singapore. Is that freedom from tyranny?

I could be wrong. Correction requested.

--IMM

[wuushew]

33. You heard correctly

I knew a college student from Singapore and after being in the states he certainly was in no hury to return.

I would argue that the situation is not tyrannical because most of the society accepts the laws and agrees with them. Many of the laws are simply societal norms that have been codified into law.

My defintion of tyranny is usaually the tyrant king model or the American tyranny of the majority type. In my opinion the widespread acceptance of these laws in Singapore and that they enforced impartially makes it a special case.

[immoderate]

38. Thanks

I often point out to people that most arguments are over what words mean.

If the Singaporeans like this, and they can live without me, so be it.

Fortunately, I don't have to change my travel plans, or bury my "Challenge Authority" button.

--IMM

[WVhill]

40. I had a friend that got on a bus in Singapore while chewing gum.

He'd brought the gum with him in his luggage. the first thing he noticed is that everyone on the bus was starring at him. Gum is illegal in Singapore. He lucked out. The cops didn't catch him.

[JohnLocke]

35. Kick.

[billbuckhead]

43. BrookingsInstitute:USA unique in it's high rates of gun ownership& murder

Evaluating Gun Policy
Effects on Crime and Violence
Jens Ludwig and Philip I. Cook, eds.

Compared with other developed nations, the United States is unique in its high rates of both gun ownership and murder. Although widespread gun ownership does not have much effect on the overall crime rate, gun use does make criminal violence more lethal and has a unique capacity to terrorize the public. Gun crime accounts for most of the costs of gun violence in the United States, which are on the order of $100 billion per year.

<http://www.brook.edu/press/books/evaluatinggunpolicy.htm>

[WVhill]

57. Remind me to feel terrorized.

In West Virginia that dog won't hunt.

[billbuckhead]

59. Yeah but in Virginia schoolchildren couldn't go to school

and football games were cancelled.

[WVhill]

62. Remind me.

Was that due to terorists shooting at them with a Barrett rifle or are you referring to the .223 poodle shooter the Beltway snipers used? If they'd used a Barrett, there would have been no problem knowing exactly where the shots were coming from. They'd have been spotted quickly.

Of course they couldnt have concealed a Barrett like they did the Bushmaster. There's also no way the snipers could have handled the muzzle blast of a Barrett inside the car.

[billbuckhead]

67. Even though no ones died in Ford GT 40 yet the insurance company still

charges a high rate based on the idea it's a high performance 2 seater. Just because no known person has been killed by a Barrett yet that doesn't men an INTELLIGENT RATIONAL person wouldn't think like an insurance company and know they're dangerous and know they extend the range of terrorism and murder.

[WVhill]

70. Bill,

Lots of things are dangerous when used inappropriately. Insurance companies can charge what they want for anyone that can afford a GT 40 when they're on the hook to pay for the car.

On the same note, insurance companies don't single out firearms owners when they buy insurance for additional charges. I guess those actuaries really know their business.

[billbuckhead]

68. Gee my Rottweiler hasn't bit anyone yet, I'll let the kids play with it

That's gunner logic.

[WVhill]

71. Bill,

I think you're punch drunk. Ever hear about Eddie Eagle. Sorry! Kids don't get to play with guns unless someone screws up.

[billbuckhead]

73. Are you an NRA DUer? Just curious

Cause Eddie the Eagle is an NRA program funded partially funded by tobacco companies.

[WVhill]

75. If you're asking if I belong to the NRA,

the answer is no.