"Freestyle evangelicals"

[SanFranciscoDemocrat]

Someone on another online community pointed me to this fascinating article. It's a breath of fresh air for those of us frustrated by how the right has co-opted Christianity.

http://www.prospect.org/web/printfriendly-view.ww?id=7373

What is, for me, a key excerpt:

"True faith results in a compassionate concern for those on the margins. ... Allowing the right to decide what is a religious issue would be both a moral and political tragedy."

One of biggest problems with the neocons is the fundamental meanness and callousness of their philosophy. I'd have a lot more respect for them if they didn't try to cloak their depradations with Biblical quotes.

How do we convince the folks in the article that we're on the same side?

[SanFranciscoDemocrat]

1. oops

I meant to say "One of biggest problems FOR ME with the neocons is the fundamental meanness and callousness of their philosophy." I'm sure that mileage varies as to what their most vile traits are.

[QC]

2. That's a great article, and well worth everyone here reading.

Not all evangelicals are fundamentalists, and not all of them are Republicans.

I was raised in an evangelical church, and it was that early religions training that brought about my leftish political beliefs. It works that way for a lot of people--Jesus had a lot to say about the rich and the poor.

[Jane Austin]

7. Me, too. My early religious training has informed my

political views since I was a teenager.

What happened, is that I actually paid attention to what they were saying in church, instead of to some of the things said at coffee hour. :)

I grew up in a Bible Belt town so I had to learn early on to defend against the fundy attacks on my liturgical church's tenets, such as infant baptism.

The explanations are that Christ died for ALL our sins, and God loves all his children, and that no one is perfect (or even good all the time), and not to judge the salvation of others and so forth.

If you listened to what Jesus said, instead of to the distortions of "I'm holier than thou" types, you'd be a liberal.

[swinney]

3. Karl Rove commencement speaker guess where?

Jerry Fartwell Liberty University.

Future Ministers getting a full dose of "how to lie while smiling".

[QC]

4. Falwell is a fundamentalist.

Fundamentalists and evangelicals are not the same thing, though many evangelicals have fundamentalist views on biblical inerrancy and the like.

Quite a few evangelicals are Democrats, like Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore, to name a few.

[SanFranciscoDemocrat]

6. Important distinction

Between "fundamentalists" and "conservatives" (and "the religious right"). Thanks for pointing that out, QC.

I've been guilty in the past of lumping the three together, which I now realize is as wrongheaded as labeling all Muslims terrorists. My perceptions were warped by growing up in Bedford County, Virginia, 20 miles from Falwell's church and dealing with his acolytes on pretty much a daily basis. I'll get over it.

I'm incensed at the hypocrisy of the neocons' appropriation of Christianity and their claims that God is on "our" (really meaning "their") side. I can think of no more convenient and insidious rationalization for great evil than claiming to be doing God's will. Given Bush's evidently very real fundamentalist religion, his division of "us" and "them" is inevitable and, I think, intractable. I believe that for him to back off from his hard-line positions would be, for him, tantamount to defying God. He's just not going to do it.

I'm an agnostic, but am familiar enough with Christianity to recognize that if it was consistently practiced in a way truly consistent with its teachings, the world would be a much better place than it is at the mercy of fanatics who warp it to justify their own extremist agendas.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Falwell is a Republican Fundementalist

Emphasis on Republican.

[yardwork]

16. Another example of how this administration is now playing to their base.

Shrub won't win one more vote by sending Rove to speak at Falwell's so-called university. Every single one of them was going to vote for him anyway.

They're hunkered down with their rockbottom base, licking their wounds. It's our job to keep the pressure on to get the truth out, so that they don't get a chance to rebuild.

[Dob Bole]

5. Great article

Pretty much describes how I feel. And I think evangelicals (and therefore the South) are much more up for grabs than people realize this year.

[Ladyhawk]

8. Unfortunately, the bible is full of meanness and callousness.

Different denominations interpret these passages differently. And the "meanness and callousness" is not restricted to the Old Testament as most people seem to think.

I'm OK with liberal Christians, although I do wonder how they gloss over things like hell, homophobia, genocide, etc. If you can pick and choose which parts to believe, why not just throw out the whole damn thing?

I studied the bible for most of my life. Check out http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

[checks-n-balances]

9. I agree with the title of your post and I think the choice is up to the

reader when scripture gives 2 different views of God. It was written by people so many thousands of years ago and they were reflecting their own understanding of God, which wasn't perfect. They had yet as a people to understand the idea of unconditional love or of God loving all people. My theory is that they could only learn so much at a time - the other stuff was revealed to them later in their history. Just like it takes time for human beings to develop from maturity out of immaturity, the same is most probably true for civilization, too.

Many of us tend to interpret stuff like hell, homophobia, genocide, etc., according to when it was written, by whom, to whom, and with what intentions. The Bible doesn't say nearly as much about hell as about money, and what it does say about hell is not usually meant as everlasting torment without end, as it has been popularly understood. We don't necessarily gloss over it, but an overall reading of the Bible (if it is done in the first place) often leaves one with the understanding of God as NOT giving up on people. It takes a long time to study the Bible in a responsible (i.e., a non-literal) way. It takes more dedication, time, patience, and faith (faith that God isn't going to get mad at us for questioning things in the Bible) than most of us are willing to put the effort toward. It's just plain easier to read it literally, often taking verses out of context, and be done with it.

You probably aren't aware that the idea of an all-or-nothing acceptance of scripture ("If I can't believe all of the Bible actually happened, I guess none of it is true") is one deeply held by strict FUNDAMENTALISTS. The Bible is NOT GOD (i.e., not PERFECT) but must be studied carefully to get all the "goodies" and "gems" out of it. In my view, all scripture is NOT morally equal, and all parts of it should be interpreted by comparing it with what Jesus said and did. If you think it IS all equal, then Jesus' words are no better than anyone else quoted in scripture.

There are great "shortcuts" for studying the Bible responsibly without years upon years of work, but you have to know the best resources and study guides to use that won't lead you down a narrow-minded or hateful path along the way. The Bible can be a great way to get to know about a loving God; but as MLK, Jr. said about a similar subject, "Goodness (e.g., using the Bible) can be a dangerous force if it's in the wrong hands."

Sorry for the longwinded post, but you hit on a pet peeve of mine (not towards individual people, but about how the church has not educated people lately), and that's why I've spent part of my life toward trying to correct that.

Someday I'll post my recommendations for great reading, but that may be more than most people want (or asked for).

[Ladyhawk]

15. I spent many years studying the bible and like Thomas Jefferson,

I found very little value in it. Sorry. :(

When Jefferson finished editing the bible for anything of value, it ended up little more than a pamphlet. I'd like to read what he thought sometime.

I really have no desire to look for god, a being which in all likelihood, does not exist. I think 30 years was a long enough search, don't you? I want to do something else with the rest of my life.

Many, many people tell me I'm "reading the bible" incorrectly. Actually, I think I did a pretty good job of just accepting what it says at face value. And what it says is mostly pretty sick. As for "interpreting" it correctly: any book that can create so much confusion isn't worth a damn, imho. Don't you think an omnipotent god would have done a better job of making things perfectly clear?

[Indiana_Dem]

10. Thank you for the article

It pretty much explains my worldview. Although I've always voted Democratic, some of my values and beliefs sometimes go out the window for the greater value of loving one another, providing for the poor, needy and outcast, and turning the other cheek.

I've shared the article with my friends and some of my more fundamentalist Republican-leaning in-law family members. Thanks.

[RummyTheDummy]

11. It's very real

Occassionally I'll troll on some of the religous TV networks on cable (of which there are no shortage). Today I'm watching some fat slob in a $1,000 suit talking.

He's saying Shakespeare, Earth Day are tools of the devil and that Shakespeare and Thomas Jefferson were homosexuals. He's also talking about how every single public school in the country promotes homosexuality as a sort of glamerous lifestyle. Now he's going on about how kids should be home schooled to keep them away from the "abortionists" at public schools.

It really is quite disturbing, and not the christianity I know. All hate, no love. That really is the new brand of christianity. Fire and brimstone and hate and anger. Given them the power and there really would be only one book in every library and one film playing continuously in every theater in Amerika -- the Passion -- No music. No art. That's what they want.

[SanFranciscoDemocrat]

12. Orwell would be impressed...

...at how the right has misappropriated and perverted the language.

"God": an all-powerful being that hates liberals, homosexuals, feminists, and smartasses who ask too many questions.

"Patriotism": blindly following the bidding of our leaders, provided that those leaders believe in crushing like a bug those who don't agree with them.

Lots of freepers are whining about how traitorous an act the release of the torture photos was. This conclusion is breathtaking in its illogic. "Patriotism" isn't casting all ethics and morals aside to get "our" way, and hiding the evidence; it's making sure our country lives up to its ideals. If anyone's a traitor in this equation, it's those who would suppress the evidence.

God and Lady Liberty weep at their exploitation at the hands of scoundrels.

[yardwork]

17. What's he got against Shakespeare? Just out of curiousity.

I hadn't heard him mentioned before as one of the Godless leading us to eternal damnation.

A lot of schools must be surprised to hear that they are full of abortionists. Does he mean the students or the teachers? Sitting around smoking cigarettes in the break room - abortionists! Who knew?

[salonghorn70]

13. Thanks For The Great Article

This article really describes some of the things I have been trying to say on DU. I am evangelical, not fundamentalist. More middle of the road evangelical rather than conservative evangelical (like my politics).

I really hope that Kerry starts to talk more about his faith. This is a must. I really appreciated Clark talking about his faith before the NH Primary. I liked the comment about the secular elements of the Party. If Democrats try ignoring faith, then we will be making a mistake. I think that a candidate's faith is important not only to committed Christians but also to more casual believers. Sometimes I am really disturbed about the trashing of Christianity by some on DU.

[yardwork]

18. I don't blame you. As Democrats we should know better

than to slander others based on their spiritual beliefs, their accent, their state of birth, etc.

When we act like that, we are acting like Rush Limp-paw.

[yardwork]

19. This is the important point and one that Democrats need to remember

The freestyles helped usher Jimmy Carter into office in 1976 and gave Bill Clinton 55 percent of their vote in both 1992 and 1996. But four years ago, dissatisfied with a party marred by presidential scandal, they changed course and voted for George W. Bush by a 10-point margin. "This amounted to a shift of almost a million votes. ... ore importantly, it was concentrated in key states such as Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Arkansas, and Florida," wrote John Green, a political scientist and the director of the Bliss Institute at the University of Akron.

Later on in the article, they quote folks who voted for Bush* in 2000 and are very unhappy with his performance.

I've said for years that Clinton did a major disservice to the party with his shenanigans, and the party itself perpetuated the damage by rallying around Clinton instead of demanding his resignation. It left the Democrats looking hypocritical and weak on the morals front.

Kerry needs to step forward and start discussing the importance of morality in public service. This is going to choke some free-living lefties, but they're going to have to learn to get along with the rest of us. Either we pull together as a party or we go down.

[SanFranciscoDemocrat]

20. Agreed

>Kerry needs to step forward and start discussing the importance of morality in public service. This is going to choke some free-living lefties, but they're going to have to learn to get along with the rest of us. Either we pull together as a party or we go down.

Absolutely. Regardless of one's personal religious/spiritual philosophy or lack thereof, we must recognize and respect religion's importance in the lives of many, probably a majority, in this country. And the Dems cannot afford to let the Republicans continue to have virtually exclusive ownership of religious values as a campaign issue.