Are we headed for Civil War in THIS COUNTRY?

[Rosco T.]

Just think how RABID the 'pugs are now, even with all the evedience piling up..

Just think how the corporate minds are wallowing in their ill-gotten gains.

(dear ghod I hope) that it's not a matter of *if* Kerry wins, but by how much..

Will the corporate mentality tolerate a loss?
Will the mentally unstable 'put up with it'?

All you'll have to do is smile at a snarling 'pug licking their wounds and tell them 'Get over it' (remember how they loved that after Florida?) and they'll go ballistic.

Never mind that unless we take back either the House or Senate that every time Kerry farts, they'll try to open an investigation or impeachment (you think Whitewater/Monica was bad... wait..).

I've been reading some other threads where people are becoming outcasts in their neighborhoods, fights breakin out.. etc.. etc..

How ugly will this be??

or am I worrying over nothing??

[OpSomBlood]

1. If this election gets stolen again...

I think a left-vs.-right civil war would not be impossible to fathom.

No, you're not alone in worrying.

[billbuckhead]

2. No, we're reaching the edge

I'm afraid we need to look at a revolution if the next election is fixed.

[OpSomBlood]

4. How does an unarmed populace revolt exactly?

Sorry to cross-reference threads, but I find your assertion curious.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. "Unarmed"?? When's the last time you asked anyone if they kept...

...at least one weapon at home?

And you're apparently assuming that the U. S. military will back the NeoCons lock, stock, and barrel. Judging by the very recent heavy criticisms of Rummy and the rest of the NeoCons by senior military officers, I'd say the NeoCons are in danger of losing a good chunk of the military, if not all.

[OpSomBlood]

11. The reason I asked billbuckhead...

...was because he's one of the more anti-gun posters in the J/PS board. I didn't mean the question to be antagonistic (although I'm sure it came off that way). I just want to know how people are supposed to revolt against the government if they have no means to back it up with force.

And I agree...more and more, when it comes to these neocons,the idea of a military coup doesn't seem so terrible anymore.

[billbuckhead]

16. I'm for gun regulation not consfication though guns are highly

overated for solving problems.

[Arianrhod]

52. True. Guns have not solved our current problems.

If they were going to be unleashed, it should've been in 2000. They were still in the holster in 2002. And won't be drawn in 2004, either.

Whose side do people think the NRA is on, anyway?

Dreaming of armed revolution may be an interesting passtime (I prefer other dreams, myself), but it just ain't gonna happen.

[tritsofme]

22. I'm sure RWers out-arm LWers by a huge margin,

If it came down to it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. If part or all of the military goes into revolt against the NeoCons...

...who do you think would win then?

If it came down to it.

[Arianrhod]

57. You guys do realize, I hope,

that the average soldier in the Army has no access to weapons? Those are kept tightly locked up, out of reach. Or do you think the troops'll just hotwire a few Abramses and go rolling into Washington?

Meanwhile, amid all your talk of "discontent" in the military, the big brass sit on their hands as their underlings torture innocent Iraqis to death. There is no outrage on their part against the administration that brought this about--just a self-absorbed concern to CYA and not get their asses thrown in jail.

Generals are appointed by Congress with the approval of the President. They are mainstream loyalists, not budding revolutionaries. And when they retire, they exit to high-paying careers in the corporate sector, which they have been courting their entire time in the military.

I think anyone who believes that these guys are suddenly going to side with the Liberals in a war on Washington is out of touch with the realities of military life.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

97. I guess you've missed the recent articles where "senior military...

...officers" are directly criticizing the strategy of the war in Iraq, and calling for Rummy's resignation. "Senior military officers" is code for general officers, and in 40 years of observing political events, I've never before seen them openly and publicly criticize and/or call for the resignation of a sitting Secretary of Defense.

One more point...this is rapidly becoming a political struggle between the NeoCons on one side and everyone else, true conservatives included, on the other side. You'll find basically the same split inside the military as well. IMHO, your attempt to place labels on people under these circumstances demonstrates a real lack of understanding of the real issues.

As far as promotions to the general officer or flag rank level are concerned, who do you think prepares the lists from which the president (or the current dictator) selects those to be promoted? Here's the answer:

"The services hold in-service promotion boards to recommend officers for general officer promotion to the President. When vacancies occur (a general officer gets promoted or retires), the President nominates officers to be promoted from these lists (with advice from the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the applicable service, and the Service Chief of Staff/Commandant)."

In other words, the President/pResident may be selecting the officer for promotion, but the affected branch of the service controls the pool from which that officer will be chosen.

Military Commissioned Officer Promotions
<http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blofficerpromotions.htm>

As far as your comment about where the troops will get their weapons if a revolt really takes place, I was in the military long enough to understand that where there is a will there is a way. With enough senior officers joining any movement of this sort, obtaining weapons will be the least of their concerns.

[Arianrhod]

101. I've seen no such reports,

and a Google search turns none up.

Regardless, criticizing the engagement is not the same as storming the WH in open revolt. Generals are careerists, and they are not about to throw away the lucrative corporate positions that await them when they retire. They may grumble a bit, and they may even get fired for it, but they won't be leading a ragtag army of NRA members in a street battle any time soon. Sorry. Ain't gonna happen.

Meanwhile, I'm afraid I don't find the "same kind of split" in the military. The troops are sick of this occupation, and want to come home, and many want to vote * out of office. But they aren't about to storm anything, either. Those who are the most pissed off are just deciding to get out of the military altogether.

If that happens, you won't have anyone on "our side" left to back you up.

I think you are counting far too much on something that is highly unlikely to happen.

[keep_left]

32. That's a very good point about the lack of support...

even among elite elements in the military; I would also add Wall Street, the intelligence pros (CIA/DIA/etc.), top business leaders, and old-school paleocons in the Republican party.

I remember a little analysis Chomsky gave a while ago about how Rove and the neocons have basically admitted they can't run on their domestic record; they have to scare the hell out of everyone so that they think Osama's coming to get them. As Chomsky put it "they have a very narrow hold on power", and fear is how they maintain it. Because the domestic agenda of the neocons IS in fact to destroy the country, and return it to the McKinley era (corporate totalitarianism).

The problem is, the economy is diverse enough that not all business leadership is in agreement with the neocons' Shining Path. The "Flashpoints" (KPFA) show went into the whole O'Neil firing (Treasury secretary) a while ago; apparently he was horrified by the kinds of deficits and out-of-control spending the neocons were up to, and called them on it. O'Neil was formerly CEO of Alcoa, and represents the manufacturing sector, who are getting killed by the current policies. He was of course fired for opposing them. Fired--not "I want to spend more time with my family", etc. He got canned. And yet he was one of the biggest fundraisers Bush had.

So these are the kinds of cracks in the armor to exploit. The right is not monolithic, and many are clearly extremely concerned about what's happening. I just wish more were speaking out.

[billbuckhead]

12. India against the Brits, Iran against the Shah, the collapse of communism

South Africa against the Boers. Civil disobediance would be far more effective than violence against this corporate form of government anyhow.

[BiggJawn]

43. Interesting

This will teach me to read forward a few threads....

Yes, how DOES an "anti-gun" person propose that we're "on the edge"? Pitchforks and garden implements?

[billbuckhead]

47. Just think what would Einstein do? Or Ghandi or MLK?

Guns in the street will just be self defeating and make us look like the bad guys.

[BiggJawn]

56. Einstein would flee the country.

Like he did in the 30's. He used to be in Germany, remember?

Ghandi would go to jail. (or Gitmo)

MLK would be shot again.

Why do I even waste my time? Go ahead, sit in the fucking street and sing "Kumbaya". It won't hurt for long when they scoop you up in the "Soylent Green"-style skiploaders.


"What would Einstein do?" That's almost funny, y'know?

[MadProphetMargin]

63. Heh. Ask yourself THIS, instead: What would George Washington or

Madison do? Jefferson?

[Spider Jerusalem]

103. Jefferson would go off to France...

with Benjamin Franklin, and pass the time conversing with whoever's passing for Voltaire these days in between bouts of drinking, whoring, and writing letters to various people in European government asking for help...Madison would spend his days at home writing pamphlets to be published anonymously (these days, he'd have a blog)...and Washington would sit at home until people convinced him that the services of a man of his position (richest man in the American colonies in the 1770's) and character were needed to help the movement against King George...

[nolabels]

87. A large John deere and chain saws also come in handy

http://www.eco-gardening.com/docs/comp_gardenpitchfork.shtml?k=pitchfork

[MadProphetMargin]

62. Who's unarmed? Not me, bunky.

[Malva Zebrina]

84. well, it has been suggested at some point people go to their barns and

sharpen up their pitchforks and shovels.

If they are urbanites, it is suggested they shut down the whole country by shutting down the highways and the interstates.

I for one would do it if I can. The outrage and the anger would have to be at decibles beyond anthing we have ever seen and I do believe it will be a revolution. And it will not be orderly--it will involve weapons used bu Bush against his own people.

But it is not impossible -- imagine a storming of the White House.

[Terran]

91. LOL, sorry!

There are a LOT of pro-gun, armed Liberals out there. DU is proof of that (read the Justice forum some time).

[Cascadian]

80. If it is found that the election was rigged then...

there should be people out on the streets marching. However, how can you win over millions of apathetic people?


John

[burythehatchet]

3. I'll post my sentiments as posted in another thread

I know I am not alone. There are many here just like me ....enraged....sickened.....angry.....hurt.....insulted......ridiculed......dismissed.....

We have been right about EVERYTHING since day one. We knew that he knew. We did not know how far he had gone.

We know that we are to prepare for battle.

We are not afraid. We know we will take many, many losses.

We will fight on. We know now that we are fighting for a cause that is much greater than us. That is why the good guys always win. Because they fight for causes greater then themselves, while the bastards fight for their individual self interests. Its why they turn on each other in the end.

When we finish them, their end will approach quickly. I guarantee it.

We are ready. We await the signal from our soul to begin the battle.

Bring it on.

[indigobusiness]

13. Well Put

We are skating perilously close to the edge. But a glance into the abyss is said to be a good thing.

IMPEACH BUSH

http://www.cafeshops.com/indigobusiness

[Jim Warren]

30. effin' A

OK, this is just my take but there is a shitload of weird fundie clones out there and they worship *.
In my travels and associations I've had to come a lot closer to freep/fundie types than I'd really care to. I've heard a lot of their BS and just maybe it's all just phoney bravado on their part but to listen to them, they are ALWAYS talking about getting ready.

[keep_left]

36. Yes, just listen to the crazies on talk radio.

Janet ("Partial-Brain") Parshall is exactly like that--a fundie worshiper of Bush and neocons in general. She reminds me of those crazy Van Impe televangelist people who have a perpetual gleam in their eye about the world getting nuked.

There are just cults all over the place, and it's becoming like Iran. I'm not exaggerating. People should see some of the cr*p I'm seeing here in MN--home of Wellstone! The fastest growing churches, especially in the suburbs, are the crazy freeper mega-churches.

[Jim Warren]

46. MN too, guess the North/South thing is obselete huh? eom

[keep_left]

60. Well, yeah, it's a new demographic shift in MN.

I don't totally get it; it must be somewhat fluid, as who wins elections still depends very much on city vs. rural areas, especially northern MN. For example, Norm Coleman (ugh) didn't win St. Paul, the city that he had been mayor of, in his bid for Senate. I don't think he won Minneapolis either.

There is a marked shift of political attitudes as you go from urban to suburban areas, that's for sure. That's why we have the governor we do, and why he is constantly sucking up to the religious right. They're very organized, and there has been a Stalinist-style purge of moderates from the Republican party here.

[Jim Warren]

75. Tell me about it!

I'm from MA, home of Teddy, Kerry, Barney Frank etc, and who gets elected Gov? A flipping winger from Utah!

[demgrrrll]

90. OMG she is a real nut case true believer. She is truly frightening.

I see her staring straight ahead she does not see anything
that contradicts her views. She talks non stop. I have never listened to anyone that I thought was as sure about what she believes as she is. Doesn't matter that she is completely wrong about just about everything. I can see how she could be very convincing to someone with
a fundamental mindset.

[keep_left]

92. Yep, a nutcase brought to you by Salem Broadcasting...

love that Orwellian name...don't these idiots remember what happened in Salem? American History 101...hello?! This kind of stuff you can't even read in a Saul Bellow novel, it's so good.

"Partial-Brain" Parshall is really the worst. People like Chris Matthews give her WAY too much face time on the networks. Every time I see her, I want to "Elvis" my TV. You should hear the musical intro to her show--thumping military drums, the vague Copland-style harmonies, etc. It's "Triumph of the Will"-style propaganda, tailor-made for freepers. It's unbelievable.

[keep_left]

93. Oh, I almost forgot to mention...

the name of her show: "Janet Parshall's America". Does that title strike anyone else as particularly megalomaniacal? How can someone use a possessive pronoun in conjunction with a country?! WTF?!

Every time I hear the title of her show, I want to yell "it's not YOUR America, you SOB, it's OUR America! F*** you!"

[MessiahRp]

99. Wisconsin link to that

Parshall worked under Tommy Thompson when he was Governor here. She is a wacko nutjob if I ever saw one.

And the churches thing is 100% correct. It's like they all went and joined the 700 Club together.

An Appleton, WI Church on Lawrence St. near downtown had a sign up that read "Do what's Right for God, not what's left."

I saw that on my way to an Outagamie County Democratic Party meeting.

Rp

[keep_left]

100. Oh, that figures.

Why am I not surprised at all that she worked for Thompson? He's the man who led Wisconsin in a Bradley Foundation social-engineering experiment that nearly destroyed the state.

She is just scum--one of the professional Hillary Haters (tm) and a far-right nutcase. Her positions are about as insane as the Savage Weiner's, but her delivery is nowhere near as rabid.

[Wapsie B]

5. I think that even if Kerry wins,

some on the right may not accept that fact in the same peaceful fashion the Dems did when chimpy stole Fla. in '00.

Btw, a belated Welcome to DU Rosco T!

[Rosco T.]

7. my point precisely

quote

"some on the right may not accept that fact in the same peaceful fashion the Dems did when chimpy stole Fla. in '00"

that's what I'm afraid of that WHEN Kerry wins, that the 'pugs will go to open revolt..

we had a 'quiet' coup de'ta in 2000, I'm afraid this one will be open warfare, there are those in the Military that would turn (just like those in the general public). There are cooperate types that would just 'shot off the spigot' to force they way..

[July]

83. I'm more afraid they'll do as much as they can to sabotage JK.

Starting the day after the election, and using all the powers they'll have till late January.

[keep_left]

94. No doubt using all those ill-gotten $caife billions. (n/t)

[JanMichael]

6. NO! Everything is fanfuckingtastic!

All of the blue MSA's are just thrilled getting fucked over by over weighted tiny rural ares.

It's all just grand!

Let's sing a song!

[cornfedyank]

10. civil war no--- soylent green yes--- n/t

[JanMichael]

18. Don't wanna eat no people!

Rather share the land:-)

[cornfedyank]

38. when shrub et al proposed 100% estate tax exemption...sharing was not

on their mind.

how can you have a game when someone takes all the marbles home??

"live simply that others may simply live."---mahandus ghandi

"imagine"---john lennon

[laura888]

9. I know what you're saying

Even I am making clear delineations between those on OUR side vs THEIR side.

it MAY become a civil war.

But I am willing to fight. Their hatred (especially of all things Clinton) is astounding.

At the heart of it, I think we at DU are only saying "NO" to their nastiness.

This is more than republican vs democrat. Think of John McCain.

[7th_Sephiroth]

14. i have plans implimented in case of civil war

to make sure that the RW is weakened SIGNIFICALLY

[OpSomBlood]

15. You're gonna host a NASCAR race to distract them?

I like it!

[7th_Sephiroth]

17. no, think more along the lines

of removing garbage

[OpSomBlood]

20. PM me, because I have no clue what you're talking about.

n/t

[7th_Sephiroth]

23. PMed

but i'm REALLY unwilling to go into further detail

[billbuckhead]

26. What would Bush do if states start seceding?

I don't see American soldiers shooting into large nonviolent masses of people stopping the economy. Occupying airports, blocking traffic, closing down commerce. Violence can only hurt our cause.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. This war won't involve a states vs states scenario...

...it will be MUCH more fragmented over most, if not all, of the country.

[billbuckhead]

55. The original civil war was fragmented too But California and the Northeast

would be prime areas to secede. They're both getting screwed over economically, it's seems like taxation without representation.

[Jim Warren]

71. Yes to that!

The blue states are the producers and consequently the donor tax states while the red states by and large are the recipient states living off the largese of the "libruls"

HAha, the line I use often dealing with red state freeps, though I borrowed it from the turtle-necked geek Phil Grammm is "time you got out of riding in the wagon and start pulling the wagon"

[Cascadian]

81. Don't forget Oregon and Washington (Cascadia)

I honestly believe that it could come down to my region breaking off. However the time people will be ready for it remains to be seen. I tried to get a political party going here, the Cascadian National Party or the CNP, but it never went over here in Seattle though it did a little better in Oregon. I think the whole thing with 9/11 plus in the influx of newcomers to the Seattle kind of did the whole thing in. Most people around here have no real ties to the area so the concept of an independent Northwest region probably seemed "odd" to them.

It remains to be seen if the CNP can return or another secessionist party appears. Though I am no longer active in it, I still hope that the idea of an independent Cascadia will come to being should America really collapse.

Any of you care to view the old CNP policies are invited to check them out.

http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/cascadia/policies.html


John

[Arianrhod]

65. Nor will they torture innocent prisoners to death.

We just passed the anniversary of Kent State. I think your projection of compassion onto the Army is misplaced.

Is there grumbling and discontent? Yes. The soldiers don't like being in Iraq, they don't like being overextended. But will they revolt? Not in my estimation. (And I am a vet with three sons in the military, two of whom just finished tours in Baghdad.)

If "civil war" comes, don't look for the soldiers to be on our side.

OTOH, I do agree with you that violence on our part is not the answer.

[Minstrel Boy]

19. It's already a cold civil war, and the right has been waging it for

a quarter century from the bully pulpit of talk radio. Read about the role radio played in Rwanda, stirring a genocidal blood lust. It's no small thing, to feed minds a steady diet of hate.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. Actually, if you go back to the beginning of the so-called Cold War...

...you'll find the roots of the conservative vs liberal/rightwing vs leftwing conflict. Some of the first victims of that conflict were JFK, RFK, MLK Jr., Medgar Evers, Malcolm X, and a host of lesser known individuals that championed liberal causes.

But, I do agree that the rhetoric has been ratcheted up by the NeoCons over the last 25 years.

There's a bad moon risin'.
-------------------------------

Credence Clearwater Revival

Bad Moon Rising (J.C. Fogerty)

I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see earthquakes and lightnin'.
I see bad times today.

CHORUS:
Don't go around tonight,
Well, it's bound to take your life,
There's a bad moon on the rise.

I hear hurricanes ablowing.
I know the end is coming soon.
I fear rivers over flowing.
I hear the voice of rage and ruin.

CHORUS
All right!

Hope you got your things together.
Hope you are quite prepared to die.
Looks like we're in for nasty weather.
One eye is taken for an eye.

CHORUS
CHORUS

[keep_left]

45. I would argue it's much worse since 1989...

the year the Berlin Wall came down. These people remind me of something out of that TV show "Millennium". When the Cold War ended, they just could not conceive of a world without that kind of polarity.

My late father was a psychologist, and I remember him talking about the kind of free-floating anger that he saw even back in the '90s, just waiting to come down on any dissent like a ton of bricks. I think he was referring to talk radio, etc. which of course today is much worse. Look at it now: the treatment the Dixie Chicks and Michael Moore received, the kind of hate spewed daily by Faux Snooze, etc. (The "Faux and Friends" morning show is just unbelievable).

What all of this has in common is this bullsh*t concept that America always has to have some archetypal enemy. When that enemy disappeared, we started making new ones up. First it was Libyans, then Colombian coke dealers (when Ollie North wasn't doing business with them); now it's Saddam and Osama as best buddies. Richard Clarke said something very prescient in his book, that it was "as if (the neocons) were preserved in amber from the time of the Cold War". Listen to their rhetoric today, and substitute "terror" or "radical Islam" for "communism". You'll see what I mean.

[Arianrhod]

70. "Archtypal enemies." That's the Fundamentalists talking again.

Fundamentalism requires a nearly unbeatable enemy in order to thrive. It's the basis of Puritan thinking. So when Satan is no longer enough as a spiritual foe, he must be given human form.

The whole country has once again gone crazy with superstitious frenzy, just as they did in 1620 and 1790 and 1925 and. . . .

[keep_left]

76. That was in fact the premise of "Millennium"...

the Puritan-style absolutist thinking, the apocalyptic fundamentalism, etc. eventually morphing into a death cult. It was an extremely dark and scary show about a uniquely American style of religio-fascism. It's no wonder it got pulled after three years; it was a little too close to home, I think.

There's a guy named Robert Jay Lifton, I think, who's written and studied apocalyptic death-cult groups and thinking in industrial societies. His first studies of it were that crazy group in Japan that sarin-gassed the subway. But the more he studied these groups, the more he worried about his own country, the US. He's been interviewed on "Democracy Now!" and a few other shows. He also wrote a piece for the Nation magazine, called "Superpower Syndrome: America's Apocalyptic Confrontation with the World".

[Arianrhod]

78. I may have to look that show up.

BTW, did you ever see the (80s, I think) television miniseries "The Visitors"? I checked it out of the library a while back and watched it for the first time. I couldn't believe how prescient it was; it followed basically the same course the * administration has in setting up a police state.

Fascinatingly scary. Or perhaps, scarily fascinating. :)

[keep_left]

95. No, sorry, I'm not familiar with "The Visitors".

"Millennium" was a show that the producer of the "X-Files" did. Lance Henriksen played the lead role.

The unnerving thing about that show was that it often had otherwise good and civilized people being co-opted into great evil by apocalyptic fundamentalism.

[July]

85. "superstitious frenzy" is a good way to put it

I think the whole nation went nuts after the very traumatic WTC attacks. It was so unbelievable that the towers came down, the numbers of dead were so high, the images of people throwing themselves from skyscrapers was so overwhelming. It was understandable that everyone was shocked and traumatized, but much of the response was superstitious frenzy or mass hysteria. The flags everywhere, the attacks on anyone who even appeared to be a Muslim or Arab, the duct tape buying, etc., were all symptoms of the emotional reaction we were experiencing, and it left us with little use of our rational brains (well, at least some of us). And Bush and Friends were all too happy to exploit our fears and keep them alive.

Meanwhile, they did very little to address real problems, but the airport checks and mass arrests fed the freaked-outs' need for a sense that something was being done.

[Randers]

88. I think there is truth to that.

Many people do not have enough positive outlets for expression.

Anger builds - they believe that idiot Rush - he focuses their anger towards liberals.....

[keep_left]

96. Displacement of anger.

People are angry. They're being screwed. But who does MSGOP, Faux, etc. tell them to hate and fear? The government. When it's the encroachment of corporate fascism that's the real threat, and it's also the main reason why government is less than benign. Government is being run as a criminal enterprise by Halliburton et al. and their lackeys in the White House as a cash cow!

Then Rush and Sean Insanity tell them 24-7 to hate liberals. They're the reason you don't have a job. It's not surprising things have turned out this way. It's a very carefully crafted propaganda campaign.

[Cleita]

21. There is a civil war happening right now.

No bullets are being exchanged though. Maybe they never will be, but I think local governments will be shutting themselves off from the federal and state. It seems like it's starting to happen in my area already and most of these people are conservatives and call themselves Republicans, but they know they aren't facists.

[Change has come]

31. If there was a civil war....how would the country be divided?

Where would the battle-lines be drawn? Who would decide?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. Political beliefs...neighbor vs. neighbor until one side wins....

Nobody decides those things...they just happen.

[Change has come]

49. Hmmm...Kind of like what's happening right now

These are scary times :scared:

[BiggJawn]

48. Depressed areas going into the Gated Communities.

Poor people taking what the rich have away from them.

Think along the lines of the French Revolution.

They'll herd them into the corners and make their precious fences work against them.

Hi Agent Mike! :hi:

[Lori Price CLG]

61. Oh, I forgot about BBV's agent Mike. Here's an essay for you, agent Moron:

Arming the Left: Is the time now? --by Charles Southwell
http://www.legitgov.org/essay_southwell_arming_the_left_is_the_time_now_102203.html

Enjoy it!
Cheers,
Lori Price

[punpirate]

24. Recent history is instructive in this regard....

The far right didn't start taking potshots at everyone when Clinton was elected (each time). What they did do was gather money and legal talent, lobbyists and PR people and did their best to completely disrupt the White House, Congress and the courts, and the media helped them do it.

As you suggest, Kerry will likely be in for the same treatment, and he'd better be thinking of a way to deflect it, because it will likely happen.

But, the prospect of the freepers rising up, weapons in hand, to take over the country is not likely--these guys like to watch "Red Dawn" and imagine themselves in the starring roles--that doesn't mean they're motivated enough to get off the couch and act out their fantasies.

If for some reason they feel sufficiently compelled to put down the Bud Light and grab a gun, I doubt they'll last very long. As the Darwin awards prove, stupidity and survival are often mutually exclusive.

[Arianrhod]

73. The primary thing to remember about the Freepers

is that they are scared to death.

[Captain_Chaos]

25. You are all correct.

We need to be ready for anything.

[havocmom]

27. Hey, DUers, beware of threads baiting you into saying something

which the junta could use against you or DU via the Patriot Act.

And remember to say HI each and every day to Agent Mike.

Hi Mike :hi:

[rumguy]

28. hmmm....

[OpSomBlood]

29. No baiting here.

I really just wanted to know what the hell he was talking about.

[AbbeyRoad]

33. Who's Agent Mike? [n/t]

[havocmom]

51. Bev Harris (our hero in the fight to keep computer voting from subverting

the sanctity of the ballot box) mentioned that there is an agent assigned to moniter DU. This came out when some nasty federalies were trying to intimidate Bev into giving info on those who visit the BBV website.

Ashcroft busted Tommy Chong instead of going after real threats to society. Ashcroft was threated by breasts on statues. He is well off the main road to sane law enforcment.

The neocon junta will go after any force which is a threat to them. Just be aware and be careful in discussions on the possibility of civil war. It would be a bad thing for DU to be shut down based on trumped up charges over a passionate post which could be twisted by an administration of twisted minds. We need to stay in the fight.

[AbbeyRoad]

58. Thanks for the info

Unfortunately it's not surprising that someone would be monitoring. It is, however, disturbing.

[bigbillhaywood]

35. Very good...Hi Mike, and agent Amy too! You know who you are, just

between you and me and DU, and the whole FBI-- I thought you were pretty cute. Your partner was nice enough but looked like that guy from Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. Hey, Mike...I got something for you...

...piss off, Mike.

Mike, go track somebody that's doing REAL harm to the country. I'll even give you hint, Mike...he is currently a squatter at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and the REAL owners want their house back.

[havocmom]

44. Very good. yes, the real threat to the nation is there

And we have to stay in the fight which means out of Ashcroft's nasty little hands.

[MadProphetMargin]

67. Screw Ashcroft, and his nasty little band of goons.

I piss down the throats of these Nazis.



MPM,
NOT anybody's "good German".

[MadProphetMargin]

66. Hey Mike. Check THIS out:

[MadProphetMargin]

64. To hell with those Nazis. I REFUSE to live in fear of some secret police

thugs. I'll say whatever I damn well please.

No offense, I didn't mean to sound as if I was shouting at YOU.

[havocmom]

72. I understand completely

but we have an insane person running the DOJ and a bunch of crooks trying to save their hides. Rail all you want against them and get as much truth out as you can to as many as will listen, but do not give them rope with which to hang you.

There seems to be a lot of posters who try and get passionate replies on subjects like civil war and taking up arms against the government. Know where the line is between what can be said and what should remain thought.

We need all of is in this fight.

[MadProphetMargin]

74. I'll stick with Jefferson on this one. If you need revolution, you need

revolution.

As for armed security thugs coming around, well, they'll have to catch me first.

How thoughtful of Bush I & Clinton to spend 10 years training me.

Do I WANT that? No, of course not. But I will NOT be muzzled, by Ashcroft, or anyone else.

Short on self-preservation instincts? Possibly, but it is my nature to be free. Freedom trumps life, if it really comes down to it.

Patrick Henry was right.

[specimenfred1984]

41. Your Worry is REAL

I think if * steals another one, there will be a slow shift, maybe a couple of years, in states that support him and states that don't, similar to our other Civil War.

The red states for * will start passing laws that outlaw abortion, homosexuality and many forms of protest and will generally ignore the Constitution. This will force the feds to step in. If the feds won't step in due to rigged courts, and the bigoted * states are allowed to go against the Constitution then we're in trouble.

Another possibility if * steals another one is a counter coup led by military and/or intelligence forces. That could become surreal as we wouldn't know who was in power for a while. There was a scene from Russia a few years back when the Russian "White House" was being fired on by tanks. Many people just kept on with their normal business, walking by and ignoring the completely corrupted symbol of their government being blasted.

Conservatives are so completely brainwashed, uninformed, misinformed or just plain stupid and bigoted that it can easily be argued that they have an inevitable fight coming, just as slavery was clearly wrong and had to be destroyed. It's also simply amazing how little so many U.S. citizens have learned since the 1860's.

Propaganda is huge in this devolution, constantly hitting us with information carefully crafted to sell any point and mastered through 100+ years of practice. Deprogramming people who constantly reinforce their flawed positions is very difficult as they defend their decisions rather than admit that 1) they were duped and 2) they then lied over and over again to defend the duped position.

Let's hope that Kerry wins or we really are going to be in trouble.

[keep_left]

53. Let me tell you a little story...

about a pattern I'm seeing. In R-controlled states, they're running/appointing secretary of state people who are the craziest of the crazy. Here in MN, we have Kiffmeyer, who regularly goes on record about how separation of church and state is some sort of Communist plot. It was just revealed that she's a member of a freeper fundie church. In FL, they had Harris, now in DC. Kiffmeyer is planning on running for Congress as well. I know I've heard about this in other states, too.

The sec of state of course is the person most responsible for election policy, and here Kiffmeyer is always thinking up some new scheme to try and disenfranchise some group. Then we also have the voting-machine fiasco, where those companies are being run by outright Reconstructionists, and whose machines' code has been audited and found to be hackable without leaving any trace of it. Anyone else notice a pattern?

It is inconceivable to me that they can win an election fairly. They're clearly planning on stealing another.

[rumguy]

54. whew, that is scary

[MadProphetMargin]

69. Then they will have to be booted.

[Disturbed]

50. NeoFascists

If they succeed in another coup I will volunteer
to do what is necessary to rid Amerika of them because another
four years of them will devastate the environment, the economy and the little freedoms we have left.

The Supreme Court is deciding exucutive privaledge regarding detaining citizens. If they side with Bushco, that will be another freedom we will have lost.

We have a strange mix of people in this country that are anti-govt. If a violent revolution comes it will be a strange brew.

[Lori Price CLG]

59. Hopefully. There WILL be a revolution if Maggot-Face steals it AGAIN.

We will not permit a second coup d'etat. We WILL remove them from 'power'.

-Lori Price

[FDRrocks]

68. We need to have a civil war...

The status quo is majorly screwed up. Neither party represents the people anymore, and we need to change shit.

The tree of liberty, indeed, needs to be replenished with the blood of patriots... because democracy has lost out ever since corporate charters were repealed and corporation citizenship was put in its place. The rich have ruled since then... and if you look at the statitics it's a >1% minority.

[Beam Me Up]

77. You guys might be interested in my thread from earlier today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1557381

[randr]

79. Here is a scenario that is more possible today that ever before.

A military coup would take over the WH and bring the civilian authorities to trial. Allow congress to carry on with the election giving the repugs enough time to come up with a candidate. Hand control back to the newly elected president shortly after the election.
Our history has one more chapter of true heroism rising to save the nation.

[rocktop15]

82. NO

The sky isn't falling.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

98. You have to actually be looking at the sky to know what it's doing...

...having your head buried in the sand tends to defeat even the simplest of observations.

[Nlighten1]

86. Not at all...everything will be fine one Kerry is President...

Yeah, right.

[WVhill]

89. "Will the corporate mentality tolerate a loss?"

I don't think it matters to business who gets elected. Congress is bought and paid for. As for a civil war, I wouldn't be surprised if one hundred years from now the United States is no more. Of course I won't be around then.

[Freddie Stubbs]

102. It will be as ugly as it did back in 1992

when Clinton won.