Why do women make the best scapegoats???

[Junkdrawer]

With all the men charged (and, almost undoubtedly the masterminds of the torture), Lynndie England and Janice Karpinski are the ones that the media (and some "DUers"!!!) have singled out for the blame.

Reminds me of Martha Stewert. Kenny Boy takes hundreds of billions from all of our retirement funds and the media directs its ire at a woman who may have saved herself 20 grand with insider knowledge. And the weird thing is it sticks.

So I ask: why is it that a woman with any blame can be used to take the heat off a large group of men with tons of blame????

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. I guess it's ingrained. Even as a woman I have to say it's because

I really do believe that we are a bit more emotional and incapable of behaving in such a deplorable manner. Good old Catholic upbringing I guess...but you bring up a great point.

[foreigncorrespondent]

2. THANK YOU!

I am getting sick of seeing posts which name her ONLY! Thank you for creating a post about it!

[Junkdrawer]

36. It's getting kind of obvious...

subtly isn't one of their strong suits...

[Cleita]

3. That's because even in the western world, women still haven't

achieved full rights and equality. The underling is always a scapegoat. How many time were minorities scapegoated for crimes because they were there?

[corporatewhore]

4. every one from bush to lynndie should be charged

[Cleita]

6. I have to ask a question.

Why is only Lynndie's name out there? What are the names of the rest of them?

[corporatewhore]

8. her boy friend charles or patrick? you've got me

[Junkdrawer]

38. The Sy Hersh article names names...

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/

....

The military-intelligence officers have “encouraged and told us, ‘Great job,’ they were now getting positive results and information,” Frederick wrote. “CID has been present when the military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners at MI’s request.” At one point, Frederick told his family, he pulled aside his superior officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, the commander of the 320th M.P. Battalion, and asked about the mistreatment of prisoners. “His reply was ‘Don’t worry about it.’”

....

Another witness, Sergeant Javal Davis, who is also one of the accused, told C.I.D. investigators, “I witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section . . . being made to do various things that I would question morally. . . . We were told that they had different rules.” Taguba wrote, “Davis also stated that he had heard MI insinuate to the guards to abuse the inmates. When asked what MI said he stated: ‘Loosen this guy up for us.’‘Make sure he has a bad night.’‘Make sure he gets the treatment.’” Military intelligence made these comments to Graner and Frederick, Davis said. “The MI staffs to my understanding have been giving Graner compliments . . . statements like, ‘Good job, they’re breaking down real fast. They answer every question. They’re giving out good information.’”

.....

General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military-intelligence officers and private contractors. He recommended that Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commander of one of the M.I. brigades, be reprimanded and receive non-judicial punishment, and that Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, be relieved of duty and reprimanded. He further urged that a civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International, be fired from his Army job, reprimanded, and denied his security clearances for lying to the investigating team and allowing or ordering military policemen “who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by ‘setting conditions’ which were neither authorized” nor in accordance with Army regulations. “He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse,” Taguba wrote. He also recommended disciplinary action against a second CACI employee, John Israel. (A spokeswoman for CACI said that the company had “received no formal communication” from the Army about the matter.)

“I suspect,” Taguba concluded, that Pappas, Jordan, Stephanowicz, and Israel “were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib,” and strongly recommended immediate disciplinary action.

[Junkdrawer]

5. I guess there's a big well of misogyny out there..

and a sanctioned excuse to express it goes over big with the fans. But really, I'm baffled.

[Kanary]

29. Big well out there... in here.....over there......we're surrounded

[QC]

7. Blaming an outsider--like a woman--allows us to pretend

that the Establishment is OK and that anything that goes wrong is just an anomaly.

An unnamed Pentagon source described the guard members in this case as "seven morons who lost the war." Interesting. It wasn't the big bosses in the Pentagon and White House who lost the war--it was just some anonymous National Guard people who did it! See the advantages?

The 24/7 attention directed at Martha Stewart and Lynndie England is a sideshow to divert attention from much bigger "evildoers."

[bobbieinok]

9. just thot of this--not Karpinski---but Lynndie is "cute" so bushco can

play to subconscious - she's not big, she's "cute" so it could be just "fun and games"

[corporatewhore]

10. Violence against/dominatiion over another gender?

My best friend was raped and after that i read alotta books about rape. alotta of them talked about one of the reasons rape is so disgusting is because it is an act of violence (usually) by men against women.Rapists some times have to prove their domination over women.This is what i thought of when i first saw her smiling face

[smirkymonkey]

14. Do you think that the reason the women in

this case are getting such attention is because they are women "proving" their domination over men?

[corporatewhore]

15. A quote from an article from black commentator

"The image that terrifies them is that of Pvt. England, smiling moronically as she engages in unspeakable acts. The photos and testimony show England pursuing her unequal relationships with naked male victims as spiritedly as the Marquis de Sade. Americans who would never fret over injustice to Iraqis, agonize: What is Iraq doing to American womanhood?"

[smirkymonkey]

27. It seems that in addition to the horror over

what actually happened, there is a subtext to this issue that involves gender issues/role reversal that I think a lot of people are REALLY uncomfortable with.

Sometimes when my tinfoil hat gets too tight, I wonder if the prominence of Lyndie's picture in the media isn't intentional (not that she wasn't guilty, but that I have seen pictures of her more than any other guilty party.)

[corporatewhore]

25. or her domination over Arabs? who knows....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1558926&mesg_id=1561615

[prolesunited]

11. Who controls the media?

In rhetorical terms, messages don't chain out unless they are constantly repeated. The media is controlled by men, mostly white, so who do you think they will cast the blame on.

I think it just gets picked up and repeated here because that is the message so many of us are exposed to.

I was just making the same point about Stewart yesterday to a co-worker. Thank you for bringing this up.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Perhaps it's because of expectations???

We would expect a man to do these things but we can't deal when a woman is anything but perfect?

[smirkymonkey]

13. Thank you for bringing this up.

In fact, I have been getting so angry over it that I have pretty much been ignoring all the posts on the subject. Not only have women seemed to be showing up in more of the scapegoat roles lately but I have also noticed that women have been systematically raped and tortured during wartime and where was the outrage then?

It seems to me that if it were just women being sexually humiliated and abused this issue wouldn't have caused much more than a mention of the horrors of war. I am pretty sick of all the misogyny lately and it seems to growing daily. :grr:

[demgrrrll]

18. I agree. Did anyone read that insane piece that Peggy Noonan (R) Loon

wrote about England? In a nutshell she chalked it up to
what she determined was her "confused" sexuality, IIRC.

[Junkdrawer]

41. You're welcome. n/t

[SarahB]

16. Because it's always our fault for everything

That's been my experience in life anyway. :shrug:

[Wapsie B]

17. If women controlled

the banks & corporate America the tables might be turned.

[Skittles]

19. women are always held to a higher standard

ALWAYS

[kaitykaity]

20. Um. Her name is "Eve."

The source of original sin, thus pain and death and hell. The
giver of the apple.

This myth is ingrained in us.

[Junkdrawer]

21. LOL - I guess it's been going on for a looong time...

Bathsheba made me do it...

[kaitykaity]

22. Yup. But I get in trouble when I say it out loud.

The whole story almost turned me into a radical "all sex
is rape" MacKinnon disciple, until I realized I really do
like men.

Who knew?

[Deja Q]

23. Scapegoats? Or shock value?

Who's this Janice person anyway? I remember another woman smiling in front of the camera with some smiling guy... I haven't heard either of their names. Only little Lynnie lyndie. And while my comments in other posts about lynnie are harsh, I did say, amongst other comments, 'is she working under orders?'

What I said should happen to Lynddie should happen to the lot of them. They are ALL, EQUALLY, human garbage.

And, yes Martha should do her time. Kenny should do far more. DUers have also asked "Where's Kenny Boy?"

If you ask me, it's not because we single out women because they're scapegoats... :eyes: It's because WE DON'T THINK WOMEN ARE CAPABLE OF SUCH MALICIOUSNESS AND VILE BEHAVIOR. We're led to believe women are creatures of caring and concern. (additional: So when a woman is revealed to have done something horrendous, we see it differently.)

[makhno]

30. A couple of points

I remember another woman smiling in front of the camera with some smiling guy

That's Lynndie.

I haven't heard either of their names.

That's SPC Graner, Lynndie's boyfriend. The other woman you might be thinking of is Sabrina Harman, depicted giving a boisterious thumbs up next to a decaying corpse in a photograph soon to appear on the Internet.

What I said should happen to Lynddie should happen to the lot of them. They are ALL, EQUALLY, human garbage.

Interestingly, Lynndie England hasn't been charged. She is still "under investigation."

[daleo]

24. Maybe it is Jungian - collective unconscious

Maybe she is the flip side of Jessica Lynch. When the war seemed to be going a bit badly in the early days, but was still widely thought to be a good idea, Jessica Lynch was highlighted to prop up support. The whole thing was a projection of the archetype of "protect a damsel in distress", convince people of the need to rally behind military action because at its most fundamental is supposed to be about protecting the women and children of the group.

Now that many people are heartily sick of the thing, and it is becoming clear that it was a mistake, Lyndie England is being emphasized to gain support for leaving. This would be a variation on the magical thinking of the unhallowed ground - a place so bad and corrupt that simply being there corrupts even the purest people i.e. women, the nurturers of the group.

Then, I suppose, these ideas get latched onto, consciously and subconsciously by the media and perhaps organs of the state, to manipulate public opinion.

Just some rambling that could be improved upon. None the less, I think there is something deep about how the image of women has been used throughout this whole fiasco.

[loyalsister]

31. Interesting

I never thought of that. But, it does seem like women have been used extensively for propagandistic purposes here.
It is certainly curious that we haven't heard much about male participants in this.

[Disturbed]

26. Could it be because?

She is in most of the photos?

[Junkdrawer]

32. And I wonder why that is?

Perhaps the photos where the worst of the abuse takes place, which I presume doesn't include her, were too disturbing to release ?

[Junkdrawer]

33. And I wonder who set the release schedule of the photos..n/t

[shimmergal]

28. Does anyone know,

which would Iraqis find more humiliating: to be sexually abused by a man, or by a woman?

[rucky]

34. Women made it that way....

kidding.

all your examples relate to this administration. they are misogynist on top of all their other -ism's.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. because we are less powerful in society and what power we have is

seen as manipulative and somehow un-natural.

[Junkdrawer]

37. Yeah - and while attacking minorities would be very un-PC,

attacking the women avoids all those complications.

[Centre_Left]

39. Hmm

I dunno, maybe its the because of the pictures of her leading prisoners around on a leash that's causing her to receive so much blame? Just a nutty theory of mine.

[Junkdrawer]

40. Hmmm - I wonder who gave her the orders...

I hold the people who made the decision to do these things more accountable. I'm funny that way.

[Junkdrawer]

42. I'm going to kick this thread every time "Let's get Lynndie England"...

threads show up in GD. :mad:

[Junkdrawer]

43. As promised

:kick:

[Junkdrawer]

44. And again...

:kick:

[Junkdrawer]

48. They're baaack...

:kick:

[spooky3]

45. and why isn't the press making more of the REAL issue?

Which is:

That top "management" (almost entirely male) was told REPEATEDLY about the abuse problems and did NOT stop it. Therefore they have even more responsibility for the wrongdoing than they would if someone below them gave orders and others carried them out, without the knowledge of management (for which management is still responsible, legally and morally).

The press needs to go after top management. If the press operated this way during Watergate, they would have been satisfied to convict the "plumbers" and let the story end there.

[Junkdrawer]

47. I think there is right now a battle being played out in every newsroom...

over this exact point. As soon as the story morphs from "Karpinski + 6" to "Who hired the private contractors? Who removed the safeguards?", the whole neo-con crew at the Pentagon are history. And they know it. My guess is that all stops are being pulled out right now to keep this from happening.

[spooky3]

49. I hope you are right, and that the correct side "wins out."

[oldcoot]

46. The ghost of Cesare Lombroso

During the 19th century, Lombroso argued that the female criminal was more monstrous than her male counterpart because her crime defied nature. It does not look like attitudes have changed that much over time.

[Randers]

50. I seriously doubt that it was woman who decided that

the US should conduct the "interrogations" in that manner.

[Junkdrawer]

51. Starting to look like there may have been formal "R21" tactics used...

....

The spectrum of R2I techniques also includes keeping prisoners naked most of the time. This is what the Abu Ghraib photographs show, along with inmates being forced to crawl on a leash; forced to masturbate in front of a female soldier; mimic oral sex with other male prisoners; and form piles of naked, hooded men.

The full battery of methods includes hooding, sleep deprivation, time disorientation and depriving prisoners not only of dignity, but of fundamental human needs, such as warmth, water and food.

....


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html