What is the appropriate punishment for Lynndie England?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

I want to see the real criminals, those who set the policies, punished. But, nevertheless, what this woman did was criminal. What is the appropriate punishment?

[madmax]

1. Court Martial and Dishonorable Discharge

If she gives up bigger fish. If not add some jail time.

I know I'm the Queen of Mean.

[pearl]

5. I would say 5 years

of watching Chris Matthews over and over and over.
nothing but the freak.

[Hubert Flottz]

12. Gawd you are mean!

I'd just feed them all to the SS Contractor's dogs that have developed a taste for human blood! If you'd call that human blood!

[MoonRiver]

40. No, no! Make her watch Democracy Now! over and over.

That would be REAL torture for her, plus she might eventually get a clue.

[LandOLincoln]

93. I don't think she'll be getting any clues from Amy Goodman,

Saywhat. Apparently you didn't hear any of Goodman's regular slams against Wes Clark during his primary campaign. She was doing a bangup job of carrying water for BushCo, along with her cohorts Matt Taibbi and a literally hysterical Jeremy Scahill.

I listened to Democracy Now for years, but never again. It's just added more fuel to the suspicion I've held since the late 60s--that there really isn't a lot of difference between the far left and the far right.

[MoonRiver]

95. No, I didn't hear that. But I haven't listened to the program a lot.

I forget about it much of the time because its on infrequently and often is a rerun. But thanks for letting me know. That definitely diminishes my view of Goodman. :thumbsdown:

[MadProphetMargin]

80. Firing squad.

[blondeatlast]

36. We can't both share the throne...

As much as I want Rumsfeld's ass on a platter, I have no sympathy for any of the grunts involved. Their behavior is sub-human.

I wonder what may have happened, in this cyber day and age, if just one of them had let leak what was happening. Just an e-mail home, an aside to an aid worker, anything.

[laura888]

69. agreed - just following orders is no defense

I'd say 20 years of hard labor

[the Kelly Gang]

46. her defence :" just following orders" is scary because it's true..

[Enraged_Ape]

74. I agree, plus registry as a sex offender..

which is what she is. This should follow her around for at least a couple of decades.

[markomalley]

2. Since Lynndie committed crimes against the Iraqis...

she should be turned over the the host nation for adjudication and punishment (as should the rest of them)...

[hlthe2b]

8. well, let's just say I cringe when I think of her raising children....

I would hope Dept. of Family Services would do a thorough evaluation before allowing her to raise this child....


Beyond this, how do you shame someone who appears to feel no shame. I'm really stricken by her family and friends' comments in her defense, as though this was all much ado about nothing. While I believe higher ups need to be taken to task, she is culpable and I hope will not skate on these charges.

Her crime is not only against those Iraqis, but against all honorable members of the military, to say nothing of the long term reputation of this country. Her callous attitude so dramatically documented will diminish the safety of her fellow Americans against Arab Extremists for decades to come...

[bluestateguy]

3. If I said, I'd probably be kicked off of DU

so i won't say it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. As a public figure, you can attack her all you want.

As long as you don't advocate some illegal action.

[happynewyear]

16. well abortions are still legal aren't they?

*hint* *hint* *hint*

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[QC]

4. That would depend on her willingness to spill the beans on the bosses.

Just like in other criminal investigations, they should squeeze these people to get goods on the big boys who made it all possible.

That's not to say that she should get no punishment, only that it's important to nail the ones who ordered this sadistic shit. We know that all this stuff was not cooked up by some low-level National Guardsmen.

[Deja Q]

23. Post #21 - if she did it to them as means of getting them to talk

it should be done to her. She wilfully did it and the pics of her smiling (not in this thread though) certainly suggested she had no qualms about doing so.

What she did was a gigantic violation of morality and ethics, not to mention the Geneva convention, amongst other things Bush* has, in the past, wanted to disband from (we now know why). We need to know if she had accomplices, if she was told to do it, the lot. If bushco* was concerned about ethics and morality, they'd do what it takes - using the same means they're applying to every other prisoner they've taken.

[Must_B_Free]

7. If we go by our Precedents...

[DemoTex]

33. Good point

We are like Lady Macbeth. "Out, out, damned spot!" But there are way too many spots. Blood spots. On our entire nation, now. Everything Bu$h touches turns to blood or shit. We are fucked.

[theivoryqueen]

9. A return to public flogging and the stockades n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. Dishonorable discharge, 18 months lockup and 5 years probation.

And someone hand that poor child over to a loving family, with no connection to that woman.

[pinto]

11. I'd say it's up to a judge and a jury.

She's apparently broken American military law, American criminal law and international law (Geneva Convention). She is not alone, though...

[peacetalksforall]

13. She should be held until the story is flushed and then it should be

decided. If you focus on England, you'll be wasting your energy. And the perpetrators will get a pass. Don't help the PNACers and their friends at the WH and the CEOs.

[liarliartieonfire]

15. Since she didn't do this by herself, She and all others connected to

this brutality should be held in an Iraqi Prison for 5-10 yrs.

From Lyndee England all the way to the top chimp.
Isn't the law in the Middle East "an eye for an eye"?

[ikojo]

14. Dishonorable discharge

Prison time

If she and the others are dishonorably discharged, does that render them ineligible for VA benefits? She and they not only dishonored the Iraqi prisoners they also dishonored the US and the military in which they serve. They do not deserve any of the benefits that come from having served.

[happynewyear]

20. dishonorable discharge

Basically you are screwed if you get a dishonorable discharge from the military. You might be able to hide it though.

As for veteran's benefits - what veteran's benefits? The only ones I am aware of for an honorably discharged person is possible medical benefits IF you can find them somewhere.

In England's case she would get none and deserves none.

I say turn her over to the Iraqi people and let them deal with her. That would be justice IMO.

:grr:

[nonconformist]

59. Nope, if you're dishonorably discharged you're not eligible for anything.

nt

[QC]

17. What is the appropriate punishment for Doug Feith?

Scott Horton, a partner at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler who now chairs the Committee on International Law of the Association of the Bar of New York City, says he was approached last spring by "senior officers" in the Judge Advocate General Corps, the military's legal division, who "expressed apprehension over how their political appointee bosses were handling the torture issue." Horton, who once represented late Soviet dissident Andrei Sakharov, was serving as the chairman of the bar association's Committee on Human Rights law when the JAG officers first contacted him....

Indeed, Horton says that the JAG officers specifically warned him that Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith,one of the most powerful political appointees in the Pentagon, had significantly weakened the military's rules and regulations governing prisoners of war. The officers told Horton that Feith and the Defense Department's general counsel, William J. Haynes II, were creating "an atmosphere of legal ambiguity" that would allow mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Haynes, who was recently nominated to a federal appeals court seat by President Bush, is responsible for legal issues concerning prisoners and detainees. But the general counsel takes his marching orders from Feith, an attorney whose scorn for international human rights law was summed up by his assessment of Protocol One, the 1977 Geneva accord protecting civilians, as "law in the service of terrorism."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/05/07/rights/

[QC]

64. Gee, nobody wants to punish Feith?

The neocon posterboy who says that the Geneva Convention only protects terrorists? Remember him?

[squidbro]

18. Lynndie was not alone

As we all should know, Ms. England was part of a systematic policy to brutalize Iraqis. It appears that she may have been part of an effort to put these methods into practice.

The following website has more information. The techniques are described toward the end of the page. Nevertheless, the entire page is worthwhile reading.

< http://truthout.org/docs_04/050904A.shtml>

[PsN2Wind]

19. How about a week

with those Iraqis she is pictured with as cellmates?

[Hippo_Tron]

86. AGREED!

Too many of the punishments listed here are simply hypocritical because they are just as inhumane as what she did. This on the other hand violates no geneva convention and is quite creative. Although a week isn't long enough. I'd say a few years.

[Deja Q]

21. She is an animal. At the very least, it should be done to her in full...

At the very least, what she's done to those prisoners should be done to her. Do unto others as they've done to others. Seems fitting, then they won't do it again.

Better yet. Put her in a cage. Melt the key. Fuse the lock. Giving her food, water, and toiletries is still mandatory, she is still human, right?

Yes, it should be done to her as she did it to them. Maybe it'll cower her to spill the beans. I mean, she was doing this to get the prisoners to talk, yes? Was she doing it under orders? Who would she take down in turn?

She is grotesque filth. She was SMILING in one of those pics, too... She had no problems doing what she did. She is an animal. A rabid one.

[LandOLincoln]

58. How very, very enlightenened

and Progressive of you.

Are you sure you're on the right board?

Didn't think so...

[myomy]

22. Force her to look at herself naked in a mirror.

.

[vetwife]

24. Dishonorable of course but 3 years in an Arab Prison might be justice !

And everyone all the way to the top ARAB PRISON.....
No lawyer..their rules via Patriot Act
Deemd an enemy combatant...Their rules
Threat to National Security...their rules
As far as Bush and Rumsfield...The Hague or an Arab Prison

[Deja Q]

25. Only if somebody else did disgusting things to her in the process

Just looking in the mirror won't accomplish anything. She's clearly fit, she's got nothing to be ashamed of.

Obviously my thoughts of punishment put me in the animal category too. But I didn't start the mess, nor do I violate ethics and morality rules on such a grand scale. She deserves such inhumane treatment, especially if it gets her to spill the beans. Best case scenario was that she came up with the idea just to turn on her male soldier buddies. (must've worked, I gather she's 5 months pregnant right now...)

[x-g.o.p.er]

26. Reduction in rank to E-1, forfeiture of all pay and benefits...

Confinement not to exceed 42 months, and a dishonorable discharge.

Then let an Iraqi or two walk her around on a leash and laugh and point at her junk.

[Curious Dave]

27. I don't even know where to start....

I haven't really seen this addressed yet in the forum.

I'll preface my comments by saying I know it was Bush who started this war and that if he hadn't done that none of the rest of this would have happened. That is very true. But equally true is the fact that these people made the conscious decision to engage in these behaviors when there was no demonstrable reason for them to do so. Bottom line: They abused these prisoners because they choose to. Even if they were ordered to, it doesn't hold up as a reasonable justification. That defense didn't work for the Nazi's at Nuremberg and other war crimes trials and it shouldn't be allowed to work here. They need to be held accountable.

Having said all that, lets talk about "force multipliers". This is a term you hear thrown around in the military. A force multiplier is anything that helps you achieve a certain synergy that ultimately allows you to get more bang for your buck so to speak.

In the first Bush Oil War in 1991 America's reputation for the fair and humane treatment of prisoners was a force multiplier. Granted, the weeks of bombing that proceeded the ground invasion played a role too, but lets face it, we actually had Iraqi prisoners that wanted to come live in America. Iraqis surrendered by the 10,000s. The result, American lives were saved in combat. Anytime an enemy surrenders rather than fights you to the death, you're going to save lives. Enemy lives and your own.

The idiots that abused and tortured these prisoners have tarnished that reputation. And as a result fewer of our enemies in this, or in future conflicts, will be quite as inclined to surrender. The result? Even more dead American service members.

Whats a fair punishment? I guess it depends on just how many additional peoples' names will be added to the roles of the dead as a result of what these clowns have done. I know its an impossible number to quantify, but I certainly hope their Courts Martial will consider that number in abstract when they impose sentence.

[mw]

28. Make a deal with her, and deal all the way to the top

Expose the whole mess, until George W. Bush is raising HIS right hand in front of a grand jury.

[Beaker]

29. all i see her being "guilty" of is posing for some pictures...

for instance, the one with the leash-
if she was in the area visiting her fiance(who very well may be one of the abusers), and someone tells her to hold onto the leash while they take a picture...what crime has she committed?

do you have some actual hard facts re: exactly what "crimes" she personally committed?

[treefrogjohn]

30. Sentence her to drag a naked Rumsfeld by a leash

That solves two punishments.

[napi21]

31. Court Marshal and hard time! She was WRONG!

I see maybe a shortened sentence, but she obviously did the deed. She obviously didn't care that she was on the pics, not she has to pay the price.

I said shortened sentence because she may be able to be a link to the next level of command.

[Beaker]

35. she obviously did what deed?

all i see is her posing in pictures, not attaching electrodes to genitals. or sticking mop handles up someone's ass...
do you know if she was one of the "abusers", or if she just posed for pictures when she was visiting with her fiance, who was one of the abusers.

but since you seem so cock-sure, tell us, what deeds did she "obviously" do?

[Cleita]

32. I still don't understand why she is being singled out!!

She looks rather small to me and I doubt if she is alone in this. Put up the pictures and names of the other men involved. I know we still have some stupid idea that women don't do stuff like this so I guess they should be villified twice as much, but it's just sexist to me. I am not apologizing for her. What I am saying is that she isn't alone in this. I hate scapegoating. It is so Nazi and we can't condone it.

[bleedingheart]

34. I agree, what about the men who participated in this torture?

I think people are focusing on this one woman and not on the men who were involved.
One of the men involved in this torture was from PA and he has a nasty record for abusing his wife ...what about him????

[markomalley]

37. She is not alone in this but...

...she did the crime...undeniable by whatever excuse somebody chooses to use.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1554290&mesg_id=1554290&page=

All of them from the E-3 to the CinC committed crimes against the Iraqi people and need to be adjudicated in the competant court -- that of the Iraqi nation under their legal and rightful ruler, Saddam Hussein.

[BlueStateGirl]

41. I think it is because she is the most visible. She seems to be in

most of the photos. I think the pictures she is in are the most jarring because it is more jarring to see this petite female solider so obviously enjoying brutalizing these men.

In a sense you are right. She is singled out because she is woman, but not because she is more culpable than the men. It flies in the face of 'our' sensibilities. If these photos only featured men, they would still be brutal and inhuman, but part of me suspects that folks would be less shocked.

Also, it easy to dismiss her as a aberration. Ignorant girl from Appalachia , she doesn't know any better. It's not all of us, just her. JMO.

[Cleita]

49. She's visible because they put up the pictures with her in them.

I'm sure there are many more without her in them.

[LandOLincoln]

38. Well, I'm an old-fashion Liberal and proud of it, which of course

means that--by your standards--I'm a superannuated, irrelevant wuss with no stomach for real Progressive values.

So by all means, lock her up & throw away the key, but first tie her up and cut the kid out of her--without anesthesia, of course.

Teach that redneck bitch a lesson. Go ahead--show that skank how the truly enlightened deal with criminals like her.

Then you get back to me and explain to me how you're so much different and so very much more enlightened than the Freepers.

This I gotta hear...

[natrat]

39. let her

rat out some higher ups, and give her a dishon dcharge and a kick in the but

[LandOLincoln]

47. How about this: she's court martialed and given a six month sentence

in Abu Ghraib. She's treated decently and gives birth in a modern, well-equipped prison hospital (all this being overseen by the regular Army, the spooks and the paid mercenaries having been given the boot and shipped back to the states to stand trial themselves--and to receive MUCH more severe sentences).

And all the while, Lynndie and the baby's father--who has presumably received the same sentence in the same prison--get daily visits from 3-4 young, relatively Westernized, English-speaking Iraqis, both men and women. (Oh yeah--she and baby's dad get daily conjugal visits as well, as rewards for good behavior).

Relations with the Iraqis are beyond tense at first, but over time the things they share in common overcome the cultural gulfs, and each side comes to look forward to the daily visits as an integral part of their lives.

Finally Lynndie and baby's dad are released to go back home. Their new good friends give them a fond and tearful farewell--and they return to their hometowns with nothing but praise and love for their Iraqi counterparts.

Of course they're ridiculed and spat upon by the hardcore Freeper types, but the Neanderthals are outnumbered by the essentially fair and decent True Americans, who promptly set about raising funds to put Lynndie & her new hubby through school--and a couple of their Iraqi friends as well, whose dream it is to study in the States.

Oh yeah--and Lynndie's kid grows up to be one of the greatest Democratic presidents in history.
********

And if you think I'm kidding, think again.

[markomalley]

72. Saddam predicted all of this...

...he predicted a guerilla war. They will keep fighting until they've pushed us out into the sea.

I love your optimistic vision...but I see no way that it will happen...we have already lost over there and are just waiting for our forces to be completely destroyed.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. Are you talking to me?

"by your standards"

What standards are those?

[LandOLincoln]

52. "You talkin to me?? YOU TALKIN TO ME????"

Jeez, Travis Bickle, take a pill & chill.

No, I wasn't necessarily talkin to youse. IIRC you're normally one of the more civilized posters on these boards.

As a matter of fact, I was talking to the Old Testament/Freeper types who've infested these boards in such numbers lately--or maybe they were always here.

It's gotten damned near impossible these days to tell the difference between the far left wingnuts and the far right wingnuts, you know?

They're both sick, twisted NeoPuritans, IMO, and it seems to me the differences are far less important (and far less obvious) than are the similarities.

YMMV, of course...

[MidwestMomma]

45. Jesus, I'm tired of this 'eye for an eye' crap

Someone wrote on this board that 'for Muslims, revenge is a cultural must'...WTF? Seems like since 911 our entire foreign policy is based on revenge.

I join you in being a 'superannuted, irrevelvant wuss'. Call me what you want, but the woman needs help. Why isn't anyone asking....who's telling her to 'smile' at the camera?

I think she is a distraction from the big 'picture' of abuse and it seems to be working. Prosecute her according to military law and leave the 'punishment' to that laid down by our laws.

[TruthIsAll]

42. Have her kneel in back of 50 Iraqis who successively fart in her face

TIA

[wickerwoman]

44. All I know is she shouldn't make a red penny off the book deal.

I don't know enough about the specifics of her actions to dole out a specific amount of jail time. She should get a dishonorable discharge and some time in jail.

I think the most important stipulation should be that she and her family never make a penny off of any book, movie or interview deals. It should all go for compensation of victims.

It's disgusting the way the scum of the universe are rewarded with cash and celebrity in our culture.

[Rowdyboy]

48. Until tonight, I considered myself one of DU's harsher, law and order

types. You guys put me to shame. Yes she behaved in a despicably inhumane way towards men, many of whom are entirely innocent. Yes, she humiliated and, probably physically abused them. Yes, she is a West Virginia redneck who has fucked up her life beyond repair.

But this thread is kinda rough from a group a people that normally pride themselves on their belief in education over punishment, and in humane treatment for even the worst criminals.

She's a very bad person but she's not John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer either. Would you recommend the same sort of torture and pain for all mass murderers as you do for this idiot white girl from the sticks?

(He now dons protective asbestos clothing to dodge the flames)

[LandOLincoln]

50. You're a good man, Rowdyboy, and

fuck the flames--and the flamers.

[Cleita]

51. Nice of you, but

she is being singled out because she's a woman. She wasn't alone in this.

[QC]

53. Exactly--and so many of us are taking the bait.

It's the old "Pay no attention to those men behind the curtain! (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, et. al.) Look over here! Yeah, check out that girl! She must be a real castrating type, too, torturing guys like that! And did I tell you she grew up in a trailer in West Virginia? Sounds just like Deliverance, but with a neato gender twist! How about that?"

Meanwhile, hardly anyone seems to remember who is ultimately responsible for every moral outrage that our government has committed in Iraq.

[LandOLincoln]

54. You're absolutely right, and I wonder where the heck our

Feminist heroines like Tinoire and Slinkerwink have disappeared to?

Things are at a pretty pass when a DINO, Imperialist-enabling Alpha-male worshipping old sellout like me has to carry the Fem Flag pretty much alone, que no? :evilgrin:

[Cleita]

56. Excuse moi, but you are not alone. I am here.

Yeah, and where are those girls??

[LandOLincoln]

60. Yes you are, and I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise.

And thank you, friend. You and Rowdyboy (and there must be a few others whose posts I haven't had time to read yet) give me reason to hope for us yet.

[Tinoire]

76. Out slaying other dragons

;)

You rang... post 75.

I do agree though, we are at a pretty pass. Thank you for carrying the flag lol. Much appreciated.

& thanks to Cleita for being vocal.

[Rowdyboy]

78. It's about time you chimed in...

While men have valid opinions on this issue, I'm particularly interested in those of women.

Lynndie is a very cheap scapegoat, easy to take out anti-war hostility on. But she isn't at the root of the problem. This child is in need of serious help, and reflects very poorly on her upbringing, but she isn't the devil. She's a hick, and a fool. She's not Rumsfeld or Wolfowitz or Pearle of any of those other SOB's that have leveled Iraq.

[Tinoire]

79. Warrior Ethos

That's what kept me tied up for a little while... I just posted this elsewhere and with great thanks to Must_B_Free and Ares, will repost it here.

I despise what this girl has become but she's everything you said, a small cog. I thought you did a fine job of speaking for some of us ;) By the time some of you guys were done, there wasn't that much left to say :shrug:


But here... Warrior Ethos... It's all related.

Must_B_Free (1000+ posts) Tue May-04-04 08:49 PM
Original message
The Conduct is Pervasive - it's part of the Warrior Ethos Program


Warrior Ethos, a product of Task Force Soldier, is the concept of preparing every Soldier to close with and destroy the enemy when necessary, even if it means doing it with his or her bare
hands.
http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/026404.asp

-------------------------------------------------------

"The gas chamber is a beautiful place," said a smiling Sgt. 1st Class Freddie Thompson, 2nd Platoon drill sergeant. "I’ve had privates big and bad, and they’re the biggest sissies in there."

Thompson has been a drill sergeant for more than a year and is in his seventh BCT cycle. He said the gas chamber is one of the top three most memorable events for trainees in basic training, up there with the 40-foot high Treadwell Tower and qualifying with the M-16A1 rifles.

"It’s kind of along the lines of thrill-seeking," he said.

"The majority are kind of excited. It’s something you’re scared of, but it’s so scary it’s fun, and it’s so fun it’s scary."

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/031704.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

The nature of missions being conducted in Iraq right now requires Soldiers to have close contact with the civilian populace, where a lack of combatives skills can be a major concern, said Maj. Jon Segars, 3rd Brigade training and operations officer.

Soldiers are taught to dominate opponents by seizing the initiative in a fight rather than reacting to enemy attacks as most civilian self-defense courses teach.

Sgt. 1st Class Jeremy Brown, a Combatives School instructor, said the school is using feedback from Soldiers who were deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan and the Balkans through after-action interviews to further develop the curriculum. For example, the Soldiers felt they weren’t prepared to deal with large numbers of detainees.

The course teaches Soldiers to fight, but it also has an indirect effect on the Soldiers, he said. It also instills aggressiveness and confidence in the Soldier and embodies what Warrior Ethos represents, he said.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/032804.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

"I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I stand ready to deploy, engage and destroy the enemies of the United States of America, states the Soldiers Creed. These words will subconsciously remind Soldiers and leaders they have to be comfortable with uncertainty", Simpson said.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/033504.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

Not interested in directing a research project, rather with getting results as quickly as they can be made available, Cloy said his office uses resources from the civilian sector as well as the military.

The future force Soldier is equipped for battle, physically but also spiritually, morally and ethically, Cloy said. This Soldier is able to accept and adapt to cultural as well as environmental differences.

"We research how to teach Soldiers what they believe in Army Values and how those values work in other countries, like Iraq. We don’t teach Soldiers that in basic training: how to deal with people who think differently," said Cloy. "The human dimension is cognitive, psychological, physiological and spiritual. It’s an attitude, a warfighter attitude. That’s why we say it’s ‘from the skin in.’"

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/036304.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

Fifty percent of Drill Sergeant School is conducted in classrooms. There, candidates must learn not only what their training must produce but what priority to give motivation to fight. Because drill sergeants train new Soldiers, the huge responsibility for creating the right mindset rests solely on their shoulders.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/036504.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

The training has made Chan ready, he said. "The warrior in me was dormant, and it was awakened by my drill sergeants. I will fight for my country," he said.

Chan joined the Army, he said, because three of his friends and a cousin were killed in the attacks on the World Trade Center Sept. 11, 2001.

"It was a horrible experience. If there was anything I could do, this was it," he said.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/021804.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

This is a series about change.

How a 17-year-old from Nettleton, "Mis’sippi," is changed from a boy to a man in less than one-fourth the amount of time it will take for his unborn child to grow from an egg to a baby in his fiancee’s womb.

It’s about training warriors.

http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/023704.htm

-------------------------------------------------------

"Three hundred thousand Soldiers are deployed right now and doing things not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but all over the globe. It’s incredible," Schoomaker said. "And these people are operating on intent. I’ve been there, looked them in the eye. And what I recognize is what I’ve seen many, many times over: a degree of will, the ability to kill and the kinds of things we have got to be able to do on the battlefield to win."

The Army’s plan is to have Warrior Ethos totally embedded into every Soldier by Fiscal Year 2006. This includes making it part of basic and AIT for new Soldiers, and potentially part of the Noncommissioned Officer Evaluation System and Officer Evaluation System as well. By implementing Warrior Ethos worldwide, the Army will enhance the warrior spirit in the world’s greatest fighting force, enabling Soldiers to be more ready to fight and win anytime, in any conditions, anywhere in the world.




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1530692#1535180


Look for Kevin Byrnes and Warrior Ethos.
===================================

Must_B_Free (1000+ posts) Mon May-03-04 12:47 AM
Response to Original message

39. Here's some coincidental strategy branding regarding Fallujah

Edited on Mon May-03-04 01:43 AM by Must_B_Free
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1102940,00.html

Tuesday December 9, 2003

The Pentagon did not return calls seeking comment, but a military planner, Brigadier General Michael Vane, mentioned the cooperation with Israel in a letter to Army magazine in July about the Iraq counter-insurgency campaign.

"We recently travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas," wrote General Vane, deputy chief of staff at the army's training and doctrine command.

"When we turn to anyone for insights, it doesn't mean we blindly accept it," Col Peters said. "But I think what you're seeing is a new realism. The American tendency is to try to win all the hearts and minds. In Iraq, there are just some hearts and minds you can't win. Within the bounds of human rights, if you do make an example of certain villages it gets the attention of the others, and attacks have gone down in the area."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3702655 /
Dec. 13, 2003

JERUSALEM - In fighting insurgents in Iraq, the United States is drawing on some of Israel’s methods and experiences in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, including running checkpoints and tracking militants with drone aircraft, Israeli officials say.

Israeli and U.S. security experts have met repeatedly in recent months to discuss urban warfare and Israel’s lessons from its grueling three-year fight against Palestinian militants

Israeli expert predicts U.S. defeat

“They are already doing things that we have been doing for years to no avail, like demolishing buildings ... like closing off villages in barbed wire,” Van Creveld said. “The Americans are coming here to try to mimic all kinds of techniques, but it’s not going to do them any good.”

“I don’t see how on earth they (the U.S.) can win. I think this is going to end the same way Vietnam did,” Van Creveld said. “They are going to flee the country hanging on the strings of helicopters,” he added, referring to the 1973 U.S. departure from Saigon.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0929/p07s02-wome.html
September 29, 2003 edition

US eyes Israeli software as training tool for forces in Iraq

For US soldiers wondering what they should and should not do in their role as occupiers of Iraq, help may be on the way from the Israel Defense Forces.

The Israeli military has developed a software program to teach junior commanders 11 "codes of conduct'' when operating among civilians - fight only those fighting you, respect the dignity of the local population, don't pillage, and so forth.

The subsequent animation tells viewers that mistreating civilians can turn them into the enemy. Another image depicts civilians who deserve to be treated with "dignity and humanity": a woman holding a child, a cleric, an elderly man, and a representative of the civil authority.

http://www.hindu.com/2004/04/28/stories/2004042802061600.htm
Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004
U.S. tactics in Iraq carry Israeli imprint

MANAMA, APRIL 27. In enforcing its siege around Fallujah, the U.S. has employed tactics similar to the ones that Israel has adopted against Palestinian fighters, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The U.S.-Israeli connection in this field can be traced to the April 2002 battle of Jenin in the West Bank, defence analysts say. American troops, soon after this clash, were reportedly sent for training to the mock Arab town that the Israeli Army had created in the Tzrifin area of the southern Negev Desert.

The U.S. publication Defence News has reported that in December 2003, senior Israeli military officers hosted a series of meetings involving a U.S. team headed by Gen. Kevin Byrnes, commander of the U.S. army's training and doctrine command.

------------------

Could it be possible that rekindling Americas new spirit of torture is just one of many parts of a strategy called "New Realism"?

I would almost expect "Neo Conservatives" to use "New Realism" as a coined justification for torture?

Here's where it gets really ugly:

------------------

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1207-06.htm

Published on Sunday, December 7, 2003 by the New York Times
Tough New Tactics by U.S. Tighten Grip on Iraq Towns

In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in.

=============================

Aries (442 posts) Sat May-08-04 11:28 AM
Response to Original message

30. Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin, for one


via Josh Marshall:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_05_02.php#002926

"...In many of the articles on this emerging Iraqi prisoners story, it has been claimed that some of the key instigators or enablers of bad acts were military intelligence officers.

Now, who's the head of military intelligence? 'Head' is too vague. There's no such post per se. But what comes pretty close is the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence.

And who's that? Lt. Gen. William G. "Jerry" Boykin.

Remember him? He's the one who got in trouble last year for describing his battle with a Muslim Somali warlord by saying "I knew that my God was bigger than his God. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol", saying President Bush was chosen by God, and generally that the war on terror is an apocalyptic struggle between Christianity and Satan...."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1553028#1554466

[Rowdyboy]

81. I've only read the first link and I'm already nauseaus....

This is such a nightmare. Is it totally irresponsible to hope that some good may come of it being brought out into the open?

[Tinoire]

82. That's what I'm hoping for & also the reason I made that sick comment

that maybe Lynndie England should be given a medal because without her stupidity & that of her comrades, we wouldn't have this case.

It is indeed nauseating.

[Rowdyboy]

83. Our culture has come to revere rudeness and crass behavior

Popular movies like Dumb and Dumber and Something About Mary give kids the idea that there are no boundaries, that crudeness and private bodily functions should be the object of humor.

In their minds, humiliation=humor. I really think most of those guys were so ignorant they didn't know how enormously they were fucking up.

Live and learn.

And the next generation will be no better. Parents use "self-esteem" to justify allowing their kids to be obnoxious and downright dangerous in public, running through stores and restaurants. Discipline has become a four letter word, manners a joke. And we all suffer the ill effects.

Could I sound any more like a snotty old queen?

My rant is at an end. Its almost time to go to bed. Glad you dropped by, Tinoire. You always make me think

[Tinoire]

87. Lol. Color me that way too

I've been frankly appalled at the the calculated results of making each generation "Dumb and Dumber". I don't see the humor in those movies either- frankly, I would rather have a root canal.

Good-night :hi:

[Tinoire]

84. They have quite a web-site. Very proud of themselves. Hitlerish

((TRADOC for those who don't know is the Army's Training & Doctrine Command - it's responsible for every aspect of training a soldier undergoes))




Warrior Ethos is a renewed spirit being breathed into Soldiers across the force, from basic training/one-station unit training, to the Army War College, to the operational units, to self-developmental learning. This Web special introduces TRADOC's work in Warrior Ethos, which will be established in Army institutions and units beginning in January 2004.

As the Army's lead agent for change, TRADOC is spearheading the effort to inculcate Warrior Ethos across the force. Following an Army Chief of Staff directive, TRADOC developed the Army's strategy and is incorporating Warrior Ethos into all Army doctrinal materials and instruction. (Although Warrior Ethos has long been a part of combat arms training, there is renewed emphasis on the warrior spirit in combat support and combat service support Soldiers.)

Just what is Warrior Ethos? Warrior Ethos is the foundation for the American Soldier’s total commitment to victory in peace and war. While always exemplifying Army values, Soldiers who live Warrior Ethos put the mission first, refuse to accept defeat, never quit and never leave behind a fallen comrade. They have absolute faith in themselves and their team. They are trained and equipped to engage and destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat.

<snip>
_________________________

Although Warrior Ethos education efforts have evolved separately until recently, Warrior Ethos now belongs to Task Force Soldier as part of responsibilities to develop plans for Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker's focus area on the Soldier (part of the CSA's focus areas). The CSA approved Warrior Ethos and the Soldier's Creed, which contains the tenets of Warrior Ethos, Nov. 17, 2003, and directed "widest dissemination" across the Army.

Warrior Ethos and the Soldier's Creed came about because Army leaders realized that the battlefields of the Global War on Terrorism, and battles yet to be fought in our country's future, are asymmetrical: violent, unpredictable and multidimensional. This complex operational environment offers no relief or respite from contact with the enemy from the lowest end of the spectrum of conflict to the highest. Soldiers are and will be under great stress -- physically and psychologically -- no matter what their rank, specialty or location on the battlefield. Given this reality, all Soldiers must be prepared to close with and destroy the enemy -- all Soldiers must be warriors first.

http://www.tradoc.army.mil/pao/Web_specials/WarriorEthos/

========================================================

NOTE: The following email was sent to senior Army leaders from a Warfighter deployed to Iraq. The individual's name and references to specific units have been edited because the message was intended for the Chief of Staff and Sergeant Major of the Army, not for public dissemination. The Chief of Staff of The Army wants to share this message with the Army and the public because it exemplifies the spirit that makes all our Soldiers Warfighters. :eyes:

-----Original Message-----
From: A Warfighter
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 1:17 AM
To: Schoomaker, Peter J GEN CSA
Cc: Tilley, Jack L SMA
Subject: Who is The Warfighter?

Sir,

<snip> I appreciate and applaud the Army's renewed focus and reassessment of priorities to more effectively serve our great Nation in time of War.

Each and every one of my Soldiers is more than simply a logistician, a computer systems analyst, or a mechanic. Each one of my Soldiers does more than simply provide support and resources to enable other Warfighters to perform their operational commitments. Each one of my Soldiers is a Warfighter. Every Soldier in Iraq serving to liberate and guarantee a future of freedom and prosperity for the Iraqi people shares the title and honor of Warfighter. Support personnel facing the danger of cowardly improvised explosive devices and small arms fire as they move all classes of supply on the battlefield, tired and cold Soldiers standing watch on observation point guard, cooks and mechanics huddled in shelters as mortars fall on forward operations bases all over Iraq all face a deadly and determined adversary; all are equally committed to acquit themselves with bravery and honor as they serve the Nation they love. The Warfighter is not a member of an exclusive club, attainable by the few, served by the many.

The Warfighter is all of us, each committed to our mutual success, each ready and eager to fulfill that role which those charged with the sacred responsibility of leadership ask us to perform.

<snip>

Very respectfully yours,
A Warfighter
Iraq

http://www.army.mil/features/WhoIsTheWarfighter/default.html
==============

Under "Print and broadcast media reports", the suddenly stopped posting on April 28. Imagine that, all these recent stories about the stellar success of their new program and no updates? :shrug:

[markomalley]

94. Thank you for doing the research...

...this documents what I've been trying to tell folks in my "get over it" thread...

The point is that you have to train folks to give up their basic human goodness when they go in the military. That is not to say that all military people are inherently evil, but that they get brainwashed to disregard human life on order. We lock away civilians and throw away the key when this happens -- they are called sociopaths. But we train the miltiary to do this. And, it is a necessary part of the training for them to be effective as soldiers.

This is not a bushco thing, it is something inherent with the miltiary (the AF called it "Project Warrior" and it has been around since the '80s and '90s). So getting rid of * and weeds will not fix the problem...there is only one solution...and I don't need to constantly repeat it.

[Rowdyboy]

66. Of course, that's the whole point, lets place all the blame

on these kids and deflect attention from the officers and higher-ups.
She's just the poster-girl. Lets get the bastards who gave the orders , and then the bastards that gave them permission to do it.

Lets get all those Bush bastards! (apologies to the Magistrate for stealing his line)

[Aidoneus]

67. deleted

wrong place..

[TheWizardOfMudd]

55. The MAX under the military code

Whatever that is.

[dsc]

57. I hope this punishment ends up being impossible

but the ideal punishment for her would be to listen to accounts of, see pictures of, and watch videos of the torture of any US POWs that get captured after her pictures were made public. Sadly, I think this will be a very possible punishment.

[markomalley]

61. This is assuming...

...that she even has a soul left within her. Only those with consciences can feel guilt. (And this criticism applies to the whole lot of them, not just her)

[dsc]

65. My guess is she feels the people she did this to

are not human or that she felt she was doing her part to help the war effort. In either case my punishment would be fitting. If she merely was a sadist out for pleasure then probably not. I know how bad I feel for merely having been ambivalent about the war in the first place. I wonder just what these people feel now.

[foreigncorrespondent]

62. Excuse me...

...but if I recall correctly there were also men responsible for these crimes as well, so why did you just name the woman only?

I do not condone what she did, but I am getting sick and tired of her being the only one continuously named here when the torture is mentioned, and some the photo's clearly show men in pictures as well.

[corporatewhore]

63. Be locked in the same cell as Bush n' Rummy FOR LIFE

egads what hell would that be

[Aidoneus]

68. demoted & assigned to front line duty

posted on active patrol duty in either the Azamiyah, Kazimiyah, or Madinat al-Sadr neighborhoods of Baghdad, to al-Fallujah, etc..

Let them see face to face those they have tortured in an environment where their victim is not tied down. From the vantage point of the Iraqis, I would expect the RPG7 & AK47 to see justice served long before Rumsfeld or the UN/World Court ever could or would act.

This goes not just for her, as I think she is being singled out for more credit than the detestable beast is due, but all of those involved in dehumanizing torture in the various concentration camps in the occupied nation. This goes also for the British and other foreign mercenary forces serving the invaders.

[althecat]

70. She should be made to testify to congress... and granted immunity to do so

I am inclined to think she was probably acting under orders. She should be forced to testify on TV and tell everybody what really went on. And in order that we get to hear the truth the whole truth and nothing but she should be granted immunity.

As a condition of her immunity she should be forced to testify against her commanding officers.

[markomalley]

73. Who's going to grant this immunity? Dennis Haster???

Congress is controlled by the fascists too you know.

[Wapsie B]

71. Forbid her to ever set foot back home.

Make her live in Europe where her presence will be known and she'll become the object of scorn and ridicule. Better yet, make her live in the ME for the rest of her life amongst those brown people.

[Tinoire]

75. Lynndie England is nothing but a scapegoat. Depraved but a scapegoat

Without Bush's insanity, Lynndie England would be working at her chicken-processing job. Without politicians who voted for IWR and still have the nerve to stand by their vote to give that idiot chimp unfettered access to the blow-torch of war, Lynndie would be at home.

Lynndie England is nothing but a scapegoat. The real criminals are the white collar ones sitting in Washington DC hoping and praying that people will be satisfied with the blood of the 7 sacrificial lambs they tossed out to the wolves.

Honestly, screw Lynndie England. She's just a cog in a rotten & corrupted machine.

What is the fixation with Lynndie England's punishment yet little to no talk of the 17 officers & NCOs who were whisked off the scene before the latest investigation? Where are all the "contractors" involved? The CIA? The "foreign" civilians from "friendly allied countries"?

Lynndie Johnson became a depraved, despicable woman but who turned her into that?

Lock her up in the same room as the MEN who did this to her. That would be punishment enough and punishment for all. That of course will never happen.

In a dark way, Lynndie Johnson deserves a medal for being stupid enough to pose for those photos. Without them we would have no case, a case which, as we speak is specifically leading all the way up to Doug Feith. A case which is about to implicate Senators who were told and who knew but kept silent. The show is only beginning & it's too early to talk about HER punishment when we only have this tip of the iceberg.

What should be Sharon's punishment for running the OSP with Bush and manufacturing the intelligence that led to this war?

What should be the punishment of Halliburton's CEOs (past & present)?

What should be the punishment of ALL the politicians who were complicitly silent and gave their consent to this war?

There is no "appropriate" punishment for Lynndie England until everyone who collaborated with this mess has been exposed and punished so that we can see how culpable she really was.

We need to hear a little more about the men who consulted with experts on how to awaken the "inner warrior"/"warrior ethos" of these kids before we can judge.

My humble opinion.

---

IN the one-stop, five-churches, crossroads town that is Fort Ashby, West Virginia, Lynndie England was only really noted for one thing as she grew up – chasing storms. Her mother used to have to drag the young England into the house when there was warning of a tornado approaching.

There is nothing in England’s past to suggest that she was destined to become a global hate figure. No childhood abuse, no cruelty to animals; she refused to shoot deer on hunting trips. She was a rather ordinary girl, fairly feisty, but nothing exceptional. Now the storm has caught her.


<snip>

In the backwaters of West Virginia, where military service offers the assurance of health care and a chance of educational improvement, the army finds plenty of volunteers. England joined the reserves when she was still at Frankfort High School in Ridgley, viewing it as an exit route to the wider world and a rung on the ladder to her ambition of being a meteorologist.

Before becoming an army clerk, she would not have passed muster for The Jerry Springer Show. By the time she was out of her teens, she had been married and divorced within a year, lived in a trailer park and spent nights working in a chicken processing factory. She was called to service in Iraq in February 2003, but the first sign that something might be wrong came last January when she phoned her parents from Baghdad to tell them “there might be some trouble”.

<snip>

http://www.sundayherald.com/41873

[Rowdyboy]

85. She's a big-time loser and she will pay...She will pay for the rest of her

life, far more than is justified by her actions. But she is nothing more than a sacrifical lamb-if we hate her enough, and denigrate her enough, surely we will expiate our sin for being part of the country that produced her and made her what she is. Surely we can feel clean again...

Lynndie, however sad and despicable, is not the enemy. Lynndie's superiors just might be.

[Hippo_Tron]

89. I think she is a sick bitch and that's why she was put there...

Because they knew she would do those things to the prisoners. It's really a two sided effort.

[Tinoire]

90. She certainly deserves to be vilified

I just don't think it's all her though.

How do you explain so many people from the same Reserve unit being so sick? That's an awfully big coincidence.

[DrWeird]

77. Life in prison. No possibility of parole.

But only because I'm for a moratorium on the DP.

[Renew Deal]

88. Firing squad

Os a long prison sentence.

[Moloch]

91. She should be charged with sexual assault

and battery.

[tinanator]

92. let the prisoners decide

fair enough?