This torture scandal is another example of a sickness in the culture.

[indigobusiness]

As John Dean referred to "a cancer on the presidency", there is a cancer in the American culture that has found fertile ground in the Military environment...where sadism and cruelty flourish. Some of the stories coming out of Iraq are beyond belief. God have mercy on us, we share the blame and the shame and to stand still for this is unAmerican. Our standing, our credibility, and our honor are at stake. America hangs in the balance, awaiting our action.



ACT NOW!!!

http://www.cafeshops.com/indigobusiness

[indepat]

1. Sickness in the neocon right-wing culture that has so permeated

our society?

[moof]

2. zowie, that post is wrong on a bunch of levels

your opinion seems to be naive at best

[indigobusiness]

4. Explain yourself. You said nothing.

How is it naiive?

[BigDaddyLove]

5. You mentioned "sadism and cruelty" flourishing in the military......

as if this was something new and is happening for the first time in this 'war'.

This (and much, much worse) is par for the course in a 'war', I don't think it's attributable to a sick society.

[indigobusiness]

6. Take a look around you and tell me who is naiive.

Look at the ads coming out of Madison Ave where cruel jokes run amok and everybody laughs at the victim. Look at how deceit is accepted as conventional. You are EXPECTED to lie these days, for crying out loud, if it is to your personal advantage. At least that is what the culure expresses.

Not to mention the soldier in the news today, who had complained he didn't get to see his bombs explode, and hoped that would change when they got to Baghdad.

Naiive, my ass.

[BigDaddyLove]

19. I guess the ads coming out of Madison Ave are fairly.........

bad, but have you seen those concentration camps coming out of Poland yet?......nasty.

[SemperEadem]

8. Naive?

It's ingrained in the psychotic psyche of certain Americans who believe that the authoritarian realm belongs to them alone. 'Grandpappy said it was ok' is the justification.

[StandUpGuy]

3. the World waits.

Well put.!

[Neecy]

7. yes, there's a problem

The whole scandal, to me, if a reflection of a culture steeped in violence and cruelty. It's everywhere, from movies, television, video games, music, even advertising.

Why is it everywhere? Because it sells. Because people view human suffering, death, murder and torture as entertainment. We buy tickets to watch it. We love action-adventure movies where cars explode and people burn to death, where bullets fly and where it's all fun because it isn't 'real'.

We're seeing how 'real' things become when our culture melts into our sense of values. Add appalling ignorance, religious intolerance, jingoism and a complete lack of understanding of the world and you have the perfect storm.

[indigobusiness]

10. I see it as a product of the me generation.

If it feels good...do it.

Self indulgence run riot.

[Neecy]

12. I dunno

I didn't see our 'heroes' feeling anything in those photos except mockery. These were utterly dead souls.

I think we get desensitized to the brutality - real or fictional - that's all around us. We're self-indulgent and greedy as consumers, but I think this runs deeper than that.

[indigobusiness]

14. of course...

but the boundaries that contained the decency has been breached and allowed it to seep away like our life-blood.

[BigDaddyLove]

16. "If it feels good; do it"..........

Funny you should mention that phrase, as I recall that that was one of the many canards the right used in disparaging Clinton and the left as they proclaimed us devoid of morals.

This 'culture of violence' that you accuse us of having relates more to human nature than America if you ask me (though I realize you didn't).

[indigobusiness]

26. My analysis

was of America on its own merits, in universal terms.

...the direction we have taken, and the evidence of our undoing.

We wake up now, or wake up soon a third world country.

Humility is a beautiful thing.

[BigDaddyLove]

30. I'm assuming that you think that America.......

exists in a vacuum, that it somehow is exempt from history. We are but part of an ongoing continuum in which shitty things happen.

Again though, in comparison, life in America in 2004 is a ton less violent and horrible than say, life in England in 1535, or at pretty much any other time in recorded history....unless you bring Atlantis into the conversation, 'cause THEY were a peaceful and well adjusted people (not to mention that they didn't exist).

[BigDaddyLove]

13. Blaming American culture for violence as if we were the........

first ones to view "human suffering, death, murder and torture" as entertainment is ridiculous.

Compared to the good ol' days of the Colosseum in Rome, I'd say we were amazingly enlightened.

[indigobusiness]

20. To think of us as enlightened is delusional.

We have been resting on our laurels for awhile. Rome was every bit at the pinnacle as we are...or WERE. We have got to stop knocking ourself down by patting ourself on the back.
I love this country as much as anybody, but it is not what was envisioned by the founders.
Self examined lives are the only ones worth living. When we lose critical analysis... man the life-boats.

[BigDaddyLove]

23. Or, perhaps we should stop knocking ourselves down........

by stabbing ourselves in the back.

Human nature has and always will have a dark side that is manifest in violence and war.

[indigobusiness]

33. Taking our lumps is American

Whiny-ass excuse making isn't the America I was brought up in, and a willingness to face the facts forthrightly is not "backstabbing".

[BigDaddyLove]

36. Whiny-ass excuse making?

Who's whining?

I fully admit that American culture has an intimate relationship with violence, and that it isn't surprising that this is so.

You are crying all over the place and acting surprised about it.

[indigobusiness]

54. Whose crying?

I'm saying "suck it up and take it like a man" and learn frrom it.

You are the crybaby making excuses and saying "but they do it too".

What a clown.

[scarletwoman]

9. Absolutely right! We are a VERY sick society.

Our culture glorifies violence, extols dominance over cooperation, wallows in porn, and worships materialism. We have alot to answer for in the world, being 5% of the world population consuming 25% of its resources to support our self-involved lifestyles.

And it is just that equation that sends our government rampaging around the world in our names to pirate other peoples' resources, while killing, maiming and destroying their cultures.

There has been no honor in this country for a very long time.

sw

[0007]

53. Let's start by asking the American Indians when honor was in existence!

[rainydaywoman]

11. Polical Science Professor @ Penn State

seems to feel the same.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04129/312941.stm

Peace!

[Mattforclark]

15. Grand Theft Auto and Marilyn Manson must be banned...

...

[BigDaddyLove]

17. I'd have to add Childbirth to your list...........

Man, is THAT violent....blood, guts, pain, the ripping of flesh etc., etc.

[Mattforclark]

18. That's an excellent idea... n/t

[scarletwoman]

28. As a mother, I find your post boorish and offensive.

If you don't get the point of this discussion, it would be nice if you would keep such inane comments to yourself.

[BigDaddyLove]

31. So sorry to have offended your delicate sensibilities........

but it is you who didn't get the point.

[scarletwoman]

34. And what point is that?

That you are unable to distinguish between culture (a human societal construct), and a natural function of human reproduction?

sw

[BigDaddyLove]

38. Where exactly does 'culture' come from?.........

Thin air? Or is it a manifestation of that which is in our nature?

Violence is every bit a part of being human as Childbirth.

[indigobusiness]

40. You Sir,

are an idiot.

[BigDaddyLove]

42. Idiot?

Come on, you can do better than that....get in touch with your dark side; it's fun.

[indigobusiness]

44. I wouldn't know...

I'll take your word for it.

[scarletwoman]

46. Violence is voluntary.

We CHOOSE whether we will respond to a given situation with violence or with reason. Culture is made up of the agreed-upon norms of behavior for any given social group of humans.

There is an old Cherokee story illustrating what I mean:

An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice...

"Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt great hate for those who have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It's like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die."

"I have struggled with these feelings many times. It is as if there are two wolves inside me; one is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way.

But...the other wolf... ah! The littlest thing will send him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all of the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing."

"Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit."

The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?"

The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed."

We have a choice about which "wolf to feed", we do not have a choice about how our reproductive processes function.

sw

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[scarletwoman]

85. The Cherokee did not practice scalping.

You are not only boorish, but ignorant as well. In fact, scalping may very well have been introduced by the European invaders of this continent. The early colonists on the East coast paid bounties for Indian scalps, as did the Spanish in the Southwest, as late as the 1800's.

The Cherokee were, in fact, a peaceful agrarian culture who attempted to co-exist peaceably with the white invaders. Not that it did them much good when the whites decided to force them off their homeland. Ever hear of the Trail of Tears?

sw

[BigDaddyLove]

86. Boorish, maybe........

If you think for one minute that the Cherokee Indians never engaged in war with other tribes (even siding with the British against the French and Spanish in the late 17th and early 18th centuries), then I am not the ignorant one here.

[scarletwoman]

87. I didn't say they didn't engage in warfare.

Theirs is a long, complex history that includes warring with the British as well as the French -- and off-topic, in any case.

I see your "scalping" post got deleted, anyway.

And all I was really endeavoring to do was to illustrate by means of a parable that while violence is a human trait, humans are also capable of making the choice to not indulge it.

sw

[Skittles]

43. no, YOU didn't get it

SHE got your point - she just found it rightfully ABSURD.

[BigDaddyLove]

48. Uh-oh.......

Another OFFENDED liberal.

Get over yourself.

The point is that we have to take our heads out of the sand and realize that human nature has a facet which is quite violent....always has, always will.

Now, to think that because some American soldier or other committed some pretty indefensible acts during a war means that America is the worst violent offender in history is bullshit.

My reply post that you have a problem with was made to someone suggesting that we ban things like Grand Theft Auto and Marilyn Manson as if these sorts of things were too violent for the impressionable masses....this post was more than likely made in sarcastic jest. I then added to the absurdity by suggesting that we should ban childbirth as well, because God knows that's violent, and we can't have anyone experiencing violence or pain in liberal fantasy world.

If you don't get it now, then try re-reading the posts....slowly.

[indigobusiness]

51. You dont' understand "standards".

The standard we set for ourself is not a moving bar that measures the actions of others. It is an absolute.

[BigDaddyLove]

55. Where exactly should I look for this 'absolute' .........

that you speak of?

The Bible?
The Koran?
The Prince?
Mein Kampf?
A Chinese take out menu?

[indigobusiness]

56. You obviously

have studied no wisdom teaching, ethical tome, or simple code of decency. I understand now.

[BigDaddyLove]

57. Actually, it's more like I've paid attention to reality........

rather than spending all my time sitting around staring at my navel and contemplating the meaning of existence.

At some point you are going to have to recognize and accept the world as it is, and not as you wish it to be.

[indigobusiness]

59. The deluded

are always right.

[BigDaddyLove]

62. So that explains your attitude.........

I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was.

Thanks.

[camero]

61. Sounds like Ollie North In the Iran/Contra hearings

saying that since the world has always been a barbaric place that barbarism was ok.

The usual excuse of people that condone violence.

[BigDaddyLove]

63. I thought he used the old "I was just following orders" routine.....

And yes the world has always been a barbaric place, and will more than likely continue to be so until and unless the human race is no longer a part of it.

[camero]

64. We have free will

We choose either to be violent or not. Making excuses for it doesn't cut the mustard.

Yes, he also used the "I was just following orders" excuse. So did the Nazi SS.

[BigDaddyLove]

66. No doubt.......

So far the human race has chosen violence when faced with the choice.

Do you expect it to change? Do you think such use of violence is somehow foreign to our nature?

[camero]

68. Why do we prosecute murderers?

It's just human nature. Sarcasm/

Yes, I think violence actually is foriegn to our nature. It is most of the time imposed from the top.

People who commit violence have higher rates of depression and shorter lifespans. The old "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword" thing.

Get it?

[BigDaddyLove]

69. I'm guessing that we prosecute murderers because......

it's bad to murder.

Why do we continue to murder? I'm guessing that it's part of human nature.

Get it?

[camero]

70. apparently you don't

Making excuses for it as "human nature" merely excuses the conduct. It's the same as saying we shouldn't enforce any of our laws.

Which you seem to condone. Maybe I'm wrong. Do you think we should prosecute the offenders in our military?

[BigDaddyLove]

72. Please refrain from putting words anywhere near my mouth....

I've never said I condone violence, I just don't look at it as something outside of who we are.

Violence and wars and murder and killing are not good things, but they are realities that we have to accept are going to happen as long as we are all cohabiting on this small planet.

And yes, we should prosecute those Americans who committed crimes in Iraq.

[camero]

73. No

They are all things we have to accept as long as we accept imbalances of power. You should clarify when you speak then and not leave the door open.

[BigDaddyLove]

75. You should read more closely........

Never did I say violence is a good thing, that you inferred it doesn't create a need to clarify my thoughts for you.

[camero]

76. You should stop making excuses

The standard line when someone has been put in a corner morally. Better to come right out and say you are against it.

[BigDaddyLove]

78. Which corner (morally or otherwise) do I now.......

find myself in?

It is no excuse to say that I believe violence is part of life...I don't have to like it, but I'm not going to pretend that it isn't so.

[camero]

79. Yes it is

It's the same line used by people who say that "those people" only recognize power. It's the same mode of thought.

To accept it is to condone it. A moral failing in itself.

[BigDaddyLove]

81. No it isn't..........

Saying they 'only recognize power' is to defend the use of power and violence.

To say 'violence is a part of human nature' is to accept reality.

Give me an example from history when the human race as a whole has refrained from violence for one week.

[camero]

82. To accept is to condone

Your choice. Evil can only flourish when good people do nothing.

[BigDaddyLove]

84. Sounds like a bumper-sticker to me.........

If all the world could be so easily explained........

[Pax Argent]

91. I agree with you

The potential for violence is absolutely part of human nature as is the potential for peace and community. I believe that this is implied in your previous posts, if not actually stated as such. I don't mean to put words in your mouth and please correct me if I am wrong.

Denial of the existence of any part of human nature is to fall into the same trap that the Bushies just did regarding the torture in Iraq, assuming that they didn't intend for it to occur in the first place. To just outright deny that something exists in the human mind rather than dealing with it is to almost ensure that it will manifest itself in the subjects behavior. This is what makes watching Republicans so much fun.

Darker aspects must be acknowledged and assimilated if maturity is to be obtained. Flat denial of existence is not an option.

[Kanary]

58. Thanks ever so much for reminding us that "liberal" = bad

Another point for the conservative side of the aisle.

[BigDaddyLove]

60. Liberal doesn't equal bad........

but it sure does create some some pretty ridiculous shadows for everyone to fear.

Oh, and stick your 'conservative' label somewhere else.

[Kanary]

65. Use the talking points, I'll mention it.

People who take great joy in going out of their way to offend others have a lot in common with the whole process we are trying to digest right now in this country.

Kanary

[BigDaddyLove]

67. Those who live in glass houses..........

What exactly did you expect your 'conservative' bullshit to accomplish?

[Kanary]

80. You expect us bad "libruls" to ignore your talking points?

[BigDaddyLove]

83. My 'talking points'.........

are my thoughts, and if you've got a problem with them then explain why, rather than calling me names.... if you keep it up, then I'll have to assume that you are a right-winger, because we all know that Liberals never resort to name calling.

[scarletwoman]

22. No one said anything about banning. The question is, WHY does our culture

produce such things in the first place? What kind of values (or lack thereof) are being promoted in a society that accepts and enjoys something like "Grand Theft Auto"? (I can't speak to Marilyn Manson -- while I find his image grotesque and totally unappealing, I know nothing about his music)

sw

[Mattforclark]

25. It's the culture of life

We must have a culture of life.

"The question is, WHY does our culture produce such things in the first place?"

As near as I can tell, it is because human beings are large apes.

[scarletwoman]

32. No it's not. It's a culture of death and violence.

A "culture of life" would actually HONOR life, not take pleasure in images of bloodletting and mayhem.

This sort of behavior is lower than that of apes or of any other natural animal. They do not glory in destruction.

sw

[Mattforclark]

41. Yes, I know

I was being sarcastic.

However, GTA is still fun, if played in small doses.

[Pax Argent]

92. Once my forbears were hunters

There is a visceral rush to the whole hunting/killing thing. While I do not condone the killing of any animal (or person) in real life except for sustenance or self defense, there is this rush in playing GTA: Vice City. Being a human in America in the twenty-first century provides this moral outlook as an option. Please don't think less of me.

Some folks don't have this instinct or they have it deeply repressed. My son has no desire to play GTA or any other violent game, but plays the hell out of the Mario games and Pac-Man. Personally I like a little of everything. Each to their own as long as it harms none. Human nature is both boorish and sublime in equal measure.

P.S. The soundtrack to GTA: Vice City is great. The moment that sold this game to me was one where I was flying a helicopter into the westering sun over Vice City while Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Two Tribes" was playing in the background. I know its weird, but again, each to their own.

[sandnsea]

21. The liberal anything goes culture

Please don't let them hang this on us too.

[Curious Dave]

24. Hate to Disagree...

But, I have yet to met anyone who thinks the torture of Iraqi prisoners was a good thing. Seems to me if our culture was sick we would have people lining up brag about how proud they are of the idiots who committed this atrocity.

So far, everyone I've discussed it with has only been embarrassed and ashamed.

I'm not hear to defend the excesses of American culture by any means. I just wanted to point out that every culture produces idiots and that fact that ours produced this particular batch of idiots doesn't logically serve as an indictment of the our culture, or our entire military for that matter.

just my .02

[BigDaddyLove]

27. Your two cents in this case is worth millions..........

Bravo!!!!!!

[indigobusiness]

35. It's not the "idiots"

that did it that truly matters. It is the culture that spawns the idiots that deserves indictment, examination, and healing.

[indigobusiness]

29. Weekend Perspectives: America the brutal

The abuses at Abu Ghraib reflect sad truths of our culture

By Stephen J. Cimbala

The outburst of conscience among America's chattering classes and politicians over the atrocities at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad is at one remove justified, but even more fundamentally, revealing. The elites are "shocked, shocked" that American military reservists and possibly others could commit acts of sexual degradation, humiliation and torture against Iraqi prisoners.

There are three reasons that no one should have been astonished by the events in Iraq: the increased tolerance in American culture for publicly disgusting and obscene behavior; the actions of authority figures toward those whose careers or lives are held in their trust; and, third, the example of our own treatment of prisoners in American jails and the conditions of their incarceration.

First, the evidence of a cultural meltdown in publicly acceptable standards of behavior was ubiquitous in American culture -- even before Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction" and the FCC's lead foot applied to Howard Stern. What appears routinely today on network television channels, never mind cable, is stupefying. Acts of demonstrative public lewdness, crassness and barbarism are spiced with commercials for ever more expensive products, trinkets for the bovine class of consumers with large libidos and no taste.

And where sex is light, violence is heavy -- we revel in blasted corpses, gouged eyes, broken limbs and sadistic punishments, so long as it's against approved classes of "bad guys" (appropriately declasse and often shape-shifted so as not to offend anyone other than robots or cyborgs). Add Hollywood to the preceding checklist of symptoms, but multiply by five. The net effect: an evisceration of public standards of propriety. Celebrities in all professions now compete to see who can be the grossest for the mostest.

Second, authority figures in private and public leadership roles no longer feel obliged to maintain ethical or even responsible behavior toward their charges. In business, managers loot the company, stiff the shareholders and fry the pensions of their employees. Other companies "lock in" third-shift employees until well-publicized medical emergencies force a change in policy. In the ebullient 1990s, we celebrated captains of industry who melted companies down into empty parking lots and departed with a fortune in golden parachutes: We called it "progress," but many middle managers called it unemployment, or destitution.

But for abdication of responsibility for ethical leadership, look no further than the churches and the educators. The churches preach bourgeois beatitudes instead of sanctity and sacrifice as the way to salvation. Growing audiences for televangelists and curious cults suggest that many are sliding across the line between Christianity and ratings, or rant. And abdication of ethical responsibility was nowhere more apparent than among the nation's educators. Decades of pandering to demands for self-esteem instead of core curriculum, for political correctness and higher tuition, have converted many college faculties into bar coasters and hood ornaments.

And, like the Pentagon brass with regard to atrocities in Iraq, many college administrators and faculty were regrettably unaware of sexual and other unethical behaviors in the recruitment of athletes to their nationally competitive sports programs.

Third, and most immediate to the Abu Ghraib syndrome, is the character of America's own prisons. Suffice it to say that, according to expert testimony from inmates and officials who are willing to talk (mostly in private), many American prisons are citadels of greed, corruption, amorality and worse. As a result of more than three decades of war against drugs, U.S. prisons filled with record numbers of young people. Many of these youths were put into overcrowded urban prisons where they were victimized by moral depravities that I am not willing to discuss in detail here (first-person accounts are available, for those with strong stomachs).

Worse is that prison authorities often made no attempt to stop repeated illegal and immoral victimizations of prisoners, including beatings and rapes. Many guards were collusive and engaged in the misbehavior themselves. And some prisons are literally run by the gangs inside that are mirror images of the gangs outside the walls. The excuses given by prison officials for their tolerance of this behavior, and by the voters and politicians who pretend not to notice, are no more convincing than those offered by the overseers of military prisons in Iraq.

Thus it's not surprising that a small number of unrepresentative U.S. troops misbehaved in these unacceptable ways: the surprise is that the majority of our soldiers rise above the dismal standards proffered by the worst aspects of our culture and above the behavior of many of our elites. Good for them -- but how long can they hold out?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Stephen J. Cimbala ([e-mail]) is Distinguished Professor of Political Science at Penn State University's Delaware County Campus. He is the author of numerous books on international politics and the state of the American military.)

[goclark]

37. Now let's see

Is Pointy Girl from an urban area?

Is she from a Liberal Democratic family?

Do the people in her community forget to go to church?
Do the people in her area believe in gun control?
Do the schools in her area teach multicultural education?

No, then how could she have possibly done these things! Some Rapper from the ghetto must have taught her how to do bad things - right?

[Kanary]

39. Completely agree. But, you're going to get arguments here

To actually be willing to look at this, and accept it means really loooking at ourselves. Most are yet ready for that. It's always "over there", and recognizing the connection with verbal violence is "too sensitive".

I've come to the conclusion that those of us who see this can only deal with it in small groups of like minded. That is where we need to go next.

Kanary

[camero]

45. The Corporate Culture

I believe what is happening now is just an extension of what has been happening for years. The love of money. The ruthless win at all cost paradigm.

The corporate culture has branched out into all facets of American life now. We can say it's the me generation or what have you but if we want to fix this, we have to treat the cause and not just the symptoms.

[indigobusiness]

47. Absolutely...

I could listen to you for hours.

[indigobusiness]

49. In that vein...

from the Sludge Report:

---Rant---
There is no more perfect phrase for the psychological climate in America than "fear and loathing". This trademark phrase is from the fevered genius of Dr. Hunter S. Thompson and all rightful credit is his. That is an ugly but necessary preamble in this land of litigation and hustle and profit at all cost., etc...but things like that must be said or risk be taken down by the snarling dogs of legal recourse. Regardless, and all apologies aside, let the point be made: America is lost and searching. Despite the trumpeting of the tired nonsense that America is great, and sound, and will return to its brief and sparkling glory. The brutal point and ugly truth is that America has lost its way... America is no longer America. When every dollar that is spent to annihilate our "enemies" is equally invested in trying to coexist peacefully...When other cultures are respected and embraced and thought of as important and not just strange and different and in need of Americanizing....When lying and deceit lose their currency...And when depth of spirit is as valued as depth of bank accounts... Maybe, then, the promise of the original concept will have a chance of being realized. The world is watching...and loathing.

[camero]

52. That's exactly right

That's why we need to take back the country from the grip of the right wing and big business. And realize that all imbalances of power are bad.

Economic and social. We are seen as the most dangerous people in the world and for half the world have been for some time. It's the corporate colossus that must be dealt with before any healing can take place.

Thanks for that rant. You are exactly right.

[starroute]

71. It's not even violence so much as bullying

The roots of Abu Ghraib can be found in Columbine.

We are a culture of bullies, with no compassion for the weak and helpless.

There have been warrior cultures in the past that were far more violent than ours, but which maintained a sense of honor and chivalry. We have neither.

[indigobusiness]

74. Warrior culture can be highly honorable

and abhor violence, but mete it out excellently when all else fails.

Moral bankruptcy and violence is an altogether different thing.

Non-violence is an ideal of the true warrior.

[laura888]

90. I thought of Columbine when I heard about the tortures

Remember, Columbine was a community, whose economy was built around defense contracting.

Bullying, and a lot of denial.

[indigobusiness]

77. New Quarters Await Bush Cabinet

http://sludgereport.blogspot.com/

[deacon]

88. The buck stops with bush

I keep running into stories on the internet about the torture and atrocities. The word "abuse" that they use in the media really must be dropped.

The torture and atrocities are bush's fault, not rummy's. He is the one who made the decision to go to war. The buck stops with him.

There is a reaganesque defence going on like during iran contra. He didn't know was part of the defence that led to reasoned thought response of he should have known.

Less time on vacation and staying on top of things, taking responibility for his decision like a war time president would have been the responsible thing to do. These atrocities could have been prevented.

Being a "war president" isn't a part time job.

Pardon my ramble, but this is all incredibly disturbing.

[opihimoimoi]

89. I feel its good he stays on vacation so long. The more he stays

at the office, the more screw up will happen. The guy is a loose canon on the quarter deck in heavy seas