Should we really leave Iraq?

[malachibk]

If we leave, we'd make a lot of Americans happy, a lot of soldiers happy, a lot of very angry Anti-American Iraqis happy and make everyone else on Earth (literally, everyone on the planet) simultaneously chortle with glee that we got our comeuppance.

Which is great, but we have to think about the long term effects of this on our country. For better or for worse we will have become a mockery of what we once were (even if only in image). Eternally tarnished.

If we stay and somehow manage to help in an honest, noble, caring and culturally competent way (obviously this plan requires bush's removal from office, pronto) then we can simultaneously leave wiser and in a place of self-directed retrospection (as opposed to embarrassed, emasculated isolation).

So even though I wish this war had never happened, should we REALLY cut and run instead of hoping we (Kerry) can turn this policy on its head, eat some humble pie and try to respectfully fix this thing?

Do we want to leave with them hating/laughing at us? Or leave them with a grudging sense of respect-now-leave-me-the-fuck-alone vibe?

Which is better for America? (Short and Long term??)

P.S. Kerry hasn't given me much sense that he's the man for the job, but I sort of like his Peace Corps idea and think the rest of the world will be so happy Bush is gone that they will give Kerry ONE (only ONE) shot to set things right. But one is more than they're ever going to give bush. So I'm hopeful.

[Karenina]

1. GET THE RAPIST OUT OF THE ROOM.

NOW.

[malachibk]

4. Are you calling me a rapist?

That's pretty fucked up if you are.

[Karenina]

16. If the foo shits...

wear it. YOUR CHOICE.

[Snoggera]

26. I think I may have missed something here

This is a valid question being asked. As I noted in a reply, I believe the UN should be brought in, and money sent to companies other than Halliburton to rebuild the destruction. I also think international investigations should be held regarding abuses of power. Usually, I am one that doesn't want to give up sovereignty in any form, but The US needs to "open the books" to the world.

"If we stay and somehow manage to help in an honest, noble, caring and culturally competent way (obviously this plan requires bush's removal from office, pronto) then we can simultaneously leave wiser and in a place of self-directed retrospection (as opposed to embarrassed, emasculated isolation)."

I don't see anything wrong with this idea. Again, have I missed something here?

[malachibk]

30. THANK YOU!!!

Restored my faith a bit

[Karenina]

49. I'm amazed.

What you have "missed" is the *American OPERATION to marginalize and BRING DOWN the U.N. And NOW that you are in a FUBAR PICKLE, demand that they clean up the shit YOU spread all over the walls. Steve Bell did a great cartoon on this. Your *dauphin on the toilet with shit-splattered walls and toilet paper with the UN logo. It was PERECT.

Americans CANNOT HELP in this clusterfuck. Job ONE is to get YOUR *MIC RAPIST OUT OF THE ROOM. It is beyond my comprehension just WHY that is so hard for y'all to understand.

[Snoggera]

63. Excuse me

"demand that they clean up the shit YOU spread all over the walls"

I didn't spread any shit on any walls.

"Americans CANNOT HELP in this clusterfuck."

I believe they can, and have outlined my thoughts on how to do so.

[Karenina]

68. Once again, verbal manipulation...

I KNOW it's difficult, but respectfully ask that you consider the point of view of those who have been brutalized by the actions committed in YOUR NAME. GET THE *MIC RAPIST OUT OF THE ROOM!!! NOW!!! C'mom, I KNOW you can do it.

[Snoggera]

70. No one committed crimes in my name

I, personally, do not take responsibility for any crimes that have been committed.

I know human beings have been brutalized, and murdered. It has not been in my name. The US government ceased to represent my interests in any way years ago.

Maybe I'm stuck on a thought, but I believe that thought, so will stick with it.

Maybe an analogy.

There are children fighting in the schoolyard. One is intent on humiliating the other. He pulls his pants down and laughs. He hits him on the head with a baseball.

Then, others, with more ability to handle the situation come into the picture. Teachers separate the two, and talk to both.

The bully says he did what he did to teach the other wimpy boy a lesson.

The other boy says all he was doing was being himself, and did nothing to deserve this abuse.

The parents are called.

The bully's parents are not bullys. They understand what their child did was wrong, and seek to rectify the situation.

How should they do it? Pull their bully child out of school and home school from now on? Or, maybe there is another solution.

Punish the bully, AND force him to make restitution in some way. Buy the other boy a new pair of pants? Have him greet the other boy every morning with "Hello, it's nice to see you. Can I help you with something today?" I'm sure there are other responses, but just leaving and pretending it didn't happen is not one of the ones I would choose.

[Snoggera]

72. Aesop

Aesop
The Thirsty Pigeon

A PIGEON, oppressed by excessive thirst, saw a goblet of water painted on a signboard. Not supposing it to be only a picture, she flew towards it with a loud whir and unwittingly dashed against the signboard, jarring herself terribly. Having broken her wings by the blow, she fell to the ground, and was caught by one of the bystanders. Zeal should not outrun discretion.

[annagull]

28. Karenina, I think you should direct your anger to Free Republic

We are just as sickened and outraged as you are, but you forget most of us tried to stop this war here--writing, marching, protesting, boycotting. Direct your anger to the cheerleaders at
freerepublic.com not at the ones who tried to stop this bloody war in the first place!

[Karenina]

53. Annagull,

Offensichlich, es liegt auf die Hand daß Du KEINE IDEE woher ich komme hast.

[LoZoccolo]

88. Karenina,

I luoghi di sinistra di fotoricettore hanno cucinato il vostro cervello.

[annagull]

109. Karenina, please insult me in my own language, ahkay?

Somehow, we seem to be on opposite sides. Not true, I want the American troops out of there as much as you do.

[malachibk]

29. Well then your shoe

must say IGNORANT in bright neon letters.

Next time read the post a bit more carefully before commenting on it. I was talking about changing things in Iraq and helping out a country we destroyed, fully acknowledging the evils we committed.

I've got to say I'm disappointed in DU right now. I asked a fucking question and was called a rapist.

FUCKED UP

[Karenina]

59. Your post is simply verbal manipulation.

YOU PERSONALLY are NOT the one with the power to perpetrate this clusterfuck, however, WE ALL PERSONALLY are RESPONSIBLE to do everything in our power to FIX IT. I do not refer to you "personally" as a rapist. The *MIC that is running amok in YOUR NAME *IS* A BRUTAL RAPIST! There's no point in quibbling with lil'ol'me about that. I be jes a little girl screaming, "THIS SHIT IS FUBAR! PLEASE SOMEBODY..." AMERICANS have the power to put a STOP to this ATROCITY. Can you PLEASE stop feeling "personally offended" by the messenger and DEAL WITH THE MESSAGE??? :shrug:

[malachibk]

62. Your post is word salad!

What are you arguing with me about? Should we not think about the consequences of leaving immediately? Should we behave like repubs and blindly stay with our desired course of action without considering the ramifications? Why attack and belittle others that see these issues as a bit more nuanced?

This shit is FUBAR. And perhaps I wouldn't get upset with the messenger if the message was a bit clearer. I'm willing to listen.

[Karenina]

69. Exactly what

do you believe would be the "consequences" of the immediate withdrawal of a *military and economic rapist that EVERYONE IN THE REGION can identify?

[LoZoccolo]

91. malachibk, you're new to DU, so let me tell you.

You gotta know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run.

[LoZoccolo]

90. Yes, no one will get raped...

...if we just pull out of a country and leave it with no government.

:eyes:

[Pepperbelly]

20. don't be silly ... of course not ...

But when a crime is occurring, it does not make sense to allow it to continue while we figure out how to put it right. The first step in taking care of someone who is being raped is to STOP THE RAPE.

If you truly believe that going in was the wrong thing to do and, if not criminal, then certainly bordering on criminal, the first step is to stop committing the crime.

[Karenina]

76. What I learned growing up

is that it happens first on such a subtle level. Someone making a tasteles joke at another's expense then DENYING. The ripples expand through the lake.

It is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to me that *Butt-cyst's vile, vitriolic hate-speech rants are being EXCLUSIVELY piped into your kids' military hovel-in-hell. PLEASE GET THEM OUT OF THERE IMMEDIATELY AND SEND NOT ANOTHER. That is MY Mothers' Day request. This clusterfuck is ALL such TOTAL NONSENSE. :mad:

NO. MY CHILDREN, GODCHILDREN, NEICESANDMYCOUSINSWHOBERECONCILEDBY DOZENSANDMYAUNTSSSS... ARE NOT CANNON FODDER IN YOUR ZERO-SUM GAME.

In the words of the Sainted Nancy (she may yet be :silly:) Just.Say.No

NO. Nein. Nyet. Non. Iye.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY to everyone who has cared for another doin their best to nurture and support life on this lovely orb.... :loveya:

[Kanary]

2. We're already a mockery. We're already eternally tarnished.

[jadedcherub]

7. Yeah, I was sorta under the impression

that when we killed some 97% of Native American peoples that lived in this country before we "found" it, that that was pretty tarnishing.

Damn small pox blankets. The Indians had a case for WMD more than Bush does. ;)

[Kanary]

17. Then we followed up by invading and conquering another sovereign nation

......Hawai'i.

You're probably familiar with the story by now...... some business men decided they wanted that little string of islands for themselves. So, they had the government take over. Imprisoned the rightful ruler. Took over the land.

I guess it's time to give up the thought that maybe we'll learn the lesson.

So, it would be a good move this time to actually be mature, admit a terrible mistake was made, and get the HELL OUT.

Maybe, if we actually admitted it, we'd then learn something.........? No, probably not, but at least it would be a bit more mature than continuuing to rape and pillage.

Grow the hell up, US of A!

Kanary

[DrWeird]

3. I don't know

have we raped and murdered enough people yet?

[mopaul]

89. mmmmnnnot quite, we're still revenging 9-11

member 9-11? they kilt 3000 of our people and now we're kickin' sand------'s asses. a thousn' o' them fer ever one o' our'n

[jjmalonejr]

5. Kerry will turn over a whole new chapter...

...in America's relationship with the world.

It won't happen overnight, but I'm looking forward to a President who will help America EARN a new reputation and a new role as a respected world leader.

[Karenina]

85. It's really NOT about

one actor. Kerry might buy some time before Mo' Nature smacks us soundly upside der Haid.

"I said WHOOMP up side yo haid I said
WHOOMP upside yo haid...."

(Who was that again???)

Whatever, however, *dimwit dauphin and his deadly Darth-demons gotta go.

What was that pledge we did with Buffalo Bob? Hmmmm....

"NEVER PUT OFF UNTIL TOMORROW WHAT YOU CAN DO TODAY."

It's howdy doody time through the looking glass in 1984 on seriously bad acid...

The other thing that makes me go hmmmm... is the focus on the American election as some sort of panacea, like anyone believes in that 'specially with a L-O-N-G H-O-T B-L-Ö-Ö-D-Y summer starin' us in the face... June 30? SAY WHAAA...? WHODOWHA? WADDAHADDADUDENNDA??? SoFA? ;-)

[Ardee]

113. wishful thinking aint policy

I wonder upon what you base your rosy vision of Kerry's affect upon our current (and heinous) actions?

I have heard, again and again, Kerry say stuff like,'well Bush is doin OK but Id do the same thing differently'. Has Kerry called for the exit of our troops from Iraq? Has Kerry called for the abolition of the Patriot Act? Has Kerry called for the reduction of the bloated military budget and shifting that money to schools, safety nets, job retraining and the like?

[Darranar]

6. So, instead....

the US should continue a bloody, brutal, colonial occupation, imposing our will upon the people of Iraq, whatever they wish?

The longer the US remains, the more innocent people will die.

It's getting worse, not better.

[malachibk]

10. Did you read the post?

I wasn't talking about staying the course, I was talking about trying to ACTUALLY do the right thing by these people we've abused so horribly.

Rebuild the country.
Let the international courts try ALL those responsible for the torture.
Listen to the needs of the people of Iraq and try to make that happen, no matter what form of government they want.
Try to make some people in Iraq believe that not ALL Americans are rapists and killers.

[Darranar]

19. Um...

the Iraqis DON'T WANT THE US THERE.

The US has done so much harm that staying in Iraq, whether or not the intentions are benevolent, will be a bloodbath and a disaster for both sides.

The country won't be rebuilt. The needs of the Iraqis won't be satisfied. The resulting destruction will only reinforce the perception that all Americans are rapists and killers.

[malachibk]

31. So we shouldn't try?

Or, really, Kerry shouldn't try? And you really don't think that Iraqis will consider the possibility that a new President might TRY to make things better? Bush speaks for all of us forever?

[Darranar]

38. No, I don't...

Bush doesn't speak for us forever, but personally I think that the nation that just slaughtered tens of thousands of Iraqis isn't going to look very good in their eyes for quite a while, regardless of administrative changes.

Even if Kerry does have benevolent intentions - which I doubt - it's too late to change that. The deed is done.

When the house is collapsing, it's a bit too late to try to put out the fire.

[Kanary]

23. "Try to make some people in Iraq..."

You can't *MAKE* anyone believe anything. Life doesn't work that way.

They want us OUT. Plain and simple.

OUT.

Kanary

[Pachamama]

32. Sounds like the prescription for the USA...

Rebuild America (stop outsourcing, create jobs, fix the infrastructure etc)

Let the Intl Courts try ALL those responsible (in absentia and starting w/ Bush, Cheney and Rummy)

Listen to the needs of the people of Iraq (GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR COUNTRY OCCUPIERS) and LISTEN TO THE NEEDS OF AMERICANS (HEALTHCARE, EDUCATION, HOMES, HEALTHY ENVIRONMENT -JOBS!!!)

Try to make (no we don't make - we show w/ kind actions of example - think aid, medicine, shelter, PEACE Corps etc) and become members and neighbors of the Global Community again...Not the Bully's on the playground, and hope they forgive us in 30 years for being rapists and killers...

[timtom]

41. Get out now!!!

Leave immediately, with an offer to provide whatever resources they would require to help rebuild their country. If they don't want our help -- so be it.

If what they finally pull together turns out to be an anti-US militant theocracy -- so be it.

If they decide to be Nazis, or all turn Catholic, or anoint a king -- so be it.

It's their country. They have the sovereign right to determine who they want to be as a nation.

In any event, the US must get out now!

[Ardee]

47. you may be well motivated

but you are sadly lacking in perspective. We invaded a sovereign nation and overthrew a government there, a violation of international law. We were motivated to do so by a series of outright lies by this administration that there were literally tons of WMD's there. We were told that the people of Iraq would throw roses at our feet.

We have slaughtered thousands of innocents in Iraq without a clue, we have used this invasion to further enrich some very wealth old white men. We have seen the administration lies shift from the mythic WMD's to the line that Hussein was a very bad man, yet now we see some very bad men and women wearing American issue uniforms.We are hated thorughout the Arab world, we are losing any respect we once had among most civilised nation and you ask if we should leave....damn, think harder!

We should go to the UN ,hat in hand and on bended knee begging them to take over in Iraq and we should finance the whole recovery, we should bring home our children from that nation as soon as they can be replaced by UN troops who certainly wont be torturing anyone ......

[malachibk]

60. Not lacking in perspective at all, but thanks

for the condescension.

Yes, Ardee, we agree: baseless war, tons of lies, no WMD, no roses at our feet, motivated by oil and hegemony...I get it. And I agree.

What I've been asking about -- not suggesting, because as I've said in numerous posts, I'm really torn about what to do -- is ACKNOWLEDGING all that, cleaning house and making sure we do right by the people of Iraq.

Maybe some DUers are bristling because I'm wondering if we should also think about ways that America can learn from this and not destroy itself because of it. Is that a bad goal?

Dems always critique bush for "Black and White thinking" and "negative attacks". Well, all I wanted was a discussion that went beyond "pull em out" and "stay the course" and what I got was called a rapist who lacks perspective.

Nice

[Karenina]

96. Iraq to Cap'n Malachibk

"Your forces be doin' serious damage. Withdraw immediately."

Ok, you got 2 choices. GET OUT or get THROWN OUT. Your move.

[Ardee]

114. not condescending at all

Disagreement that you internalise into insult....but thoroughly amazed that someone could process all the facts regarding our illegal invasion of Iraq and its subsequent causes and effects and still insist that we stay the course.

We should apologize to the entire world (right after we impeach Bush)and humbly ask the UN to take over the efforts in Iraq, and ,considering our total failures in Afghanistan, make it a two for one sale. Of course we must fund the effort...thanks George.

[quinnox]

8. Will the U.S. leave soon - I seriously doubt it

even if Kerry is elected. Should the U.S. leave Iraq as quickly as feasible - yes, it is officially a disaster and the longer the forces stay the more will be killed and the worse off both the U.S. and Iraq will be.

[Jack Rabbit]

9. There's nothing more we can do

Even assuming sincere good intentions, the Iraqi people will no longer believe it. Bush invaded not because Saddam had WMDs but because Iraq had oil. He didn't invade to bring democracy to Iraq. One does not bring democracy to a country by torturing them into accepting it.

There is nothing left to do but leave as quickly and expeditiously as possible. The longer our troops remain, the quicker and less expeditiously they will have to leave.

[malachibk]

14. So you believe that Kerry won't be able

to disavow himself of bush's policies and make any changes in Iraq? The Iraqis (and the world) won't even pause to see just what Kerry'll do and give him the smallest chance to succeed?

Honest question. I can't decide how I feel about any of this.

[Jack Rabbit]

36. Honest answer: No

I wish I felt differently.

It isn't for you or me to decide about this second chance. It is for the Iraqis to decide.

I agree that we owe the Iraqis reparations. We invaded with no good reason in order to seize their national assets and natural resources and sell them out from under them. They don't trust us.

Meanwhile, Senator Kerry supported this effort, either because he was misled or because he is a cynical as Bush. That being the case, it is difficult to trust if not his judgment then his character. Iraqis who are following the election campaign probably don't see anything in him to give them any hope that he will allow them the sovereignty that is their natural right any more than Bush will. When he speaks to this issue, he sounds like he has embraced the white man's burden ideal as much as any neocon.

I will vote for Kerry because I think he is capable of seeing reason, which is more credit than I can give Bush. Nevertheless, I will be prepared to take to the streets to stand up the right of the Iraqis to govern their own country; I'll tell President Kerry that is their right as quickly as I have told Mr. Bush.

[Kanary]

40. Have you ever been so terribly abused

that you can't stand to even look at your abuser anymore, let alone conduct a civil conversation?

Can you put yourself in their shoes for a minute, and imagine just what daily life has been there for over a year now, because of US naked aggression?

Can you honestly say that if it was YOU, that you'd forgive and forget, and say, "Sure, go ahead and stay. Rebuild and salve your conscience".

Think what it would be like to be raped and beaten, and then be expected to be on good terms with your perp, because he "wanted to make it right".

No court would ever order that.

It's gone too far.

It's going to take a lifetime, if ever, for those wounds to heal.

OUT NOW.

Kanary

[Karenina]

98. Kerry is NOT Moschiah.

[bluestateguy]

11. I think we should leave

Are there consequences to us leaving? Of course. Right now, it's a matter of choosing the least bad option. If we stay the casualties will only mount, the violence will just continue, the country will continue to be a tinderbox and a democracy will never emerge. Could there be a civil war if we leave? Yes, although there may be even if we stay. If that happens we should play a leading role in trying to broker a peace, and provide humanitarian aid where the Iraqis say they need it.

[Snoggera]

12. Bring in the UN

and keep a token number of "peacekeepers" there.

Send some more money to rebuild what was destroyed. It's the least we could do, and after all, the country is bankrupt anyway. What's another 50 billion?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

13. I think we already look like total warmongering idiots

doing some things differently would make us look a BIT better, if you ask me.

I hate to say this, I really do, but I don't want bush and co to start doing better. I DON'T want more deaths, US or Iraqi, but I hope they keep screwing up in non-fatal ways. Let bush die a death of a thousand cuts and let him pack his sorry-ass bags and get the hell out of the White House come January.

[NNN0LHI]

15. How many relatives do you have who are giving their lives and limbs...

...for this noble cause of yours?

Don

[malachibk]

22. I'm getting the feeling that either...

I don't write clearly or DUers don't read clearly.

I'm talking about (and it was a question, not an opinion, I'm torn on the issue, myself) CHANGING WHAT WE ARE DOING.

The "noble" part comes into play by CHANGING WHAT WE ARE DOING and instead, being "just" and "noble" and listen to the Iraqi people, acknowldege the fact that war had no basis in reality, apoligize for bush co and prosecute if possible, and then, STAYING TO HELP PUT THINGS RIGHT.

Pulling out immediately will not Right the Wrongs we as a nation have done.

[jjmalonejr]

34. I'm hearing you.

I share your frustration with people who won't even listen to the content of your point before denouncing you as a NEOCON!!! FASCIST!!! BUSH APOLOGIST!!!

It's pretty annoying. I'm in your camp. People think that pulling out is going to suddenly right the horrible wrong we have done. It won't.

What, we're just gonna say "Our bad...sorry...we'll be leaving now...have fun rebuilding the shit we blew up by yourselves"?

[malachibk]

35. Thanks for the support

I'm certainly no Bush apologist, but since we fucked up so big, it falls on us to make it right. Leaving is a big part of that, but just a part.

[jjmalonejr]

39. Preaching to the choir, brother.

If America didn't spend so much time either being bad or looking the other way, we could actually be a force for good.

[StandUpGuy]

71. I think you miss the point

I think most Americans miss the point.

Why wouldn't they let us try and fix this?

Because most Americans didn't physically commit any atrocities they fail to comprehend the gravity of the acts committed in their name, and thus don't appreciate the horror of the situation.

Until every American takes full responsibility for the actions they allowed to occur, you will never come close to seeing Iraqi forgiveness.

Until every American rejects the Racist ideology of your Empire, you will never get respect from the non-white world.

Even some DU'ers believe the racist rhetoric.

How many times have I read tings like “we have to regain the respect we have lost in the eyes of the world"?

Excuse me ?!?!

The non-white world hasn't had any respect for the u.s.a. for a very long time.

I could list pages and pages and pages of atrocities carried out with the full support of the American government/people.

But you all know them.

Do you really think that Iraqis need Americans to rebuild their country?
Do you really think Iraqis will kill themselves if we leave?

More racist dogma

It’s easy to say that Bushco needs to pay for what they did.
Put them all in jail....war crimes trials..everything

But what’s not easy, is to suffer the consequences of your actions once you take responsibility.

And complicity is an action.

The questions Americans should be asking themselves are
1. How complicit do I feel in the suffering my country has caused around the world to support my lifestyle?
2. How much am I prepared to suffer the consequences of that complicity?

The world has seen Bushco take responsibility now it’s up to the victims to decide if America has suffered enough to forgive.

[NNN0LHI]

74. Your screen name is very appropriate

Welcome to DU and I look forward to reading many more of your posts.

Don

[Karenina]

101. WHEW!!!

Thanks and WELCOME! :toast: I go bed now.

[Ardee]

115. well stated SUG

coherent, studied accurate view of things.....Unfortunately many still buy into the John Wayne image of the USA, toughest MF on the block but with a heart of gold...yeah right.

[indigobusiness]

121. War Crimes Call for Severe, Republican-style Penalty

This issue will haunt America for a long, long time. This is a cancer that must be removed, or it will kill the host.

[Kanary]

45. You are saying "Listen to the Iraqi people"

Great. That's what the rest of us are saying, too.

The Iraqis have made it crystal clear... they want us OUT.

It's time to listen to them.

Listening to people means hearing things we don't necessarily want to hear.

We aren't wanted.


"STAYING TO HELP PUT THINGS RIGHT" -- that *isn't* listening to the Iraqi people.

Listening. Yes. Let's do that.

Kanary

[pop goes the weasel]

56. we need to go sit quietly in a corner for a while

Of course, we owe Iraq big time. But we have demonstrated to them, if not to ourselves, that we can't help them. It is patronizing to insist on helping someone who does not want your help. We are now like a boyfriend who insulted his date with his wandering hands, and when she got out of the car to walk home, insists on walking her home "for her own safety." Will the angry girlfriend feel more secure, will she be glad of the boyfriend's concern? Of course not. She'll suspect that he wants to take further liberties with her and will start screaming for help, fighting him off anyway she can. Any passersby will conclude that he is in the wrong and will intervene against him. He needs to buy a clue and realize that the date is over and that the only thing he can really do if he is concerned for her is to call one of her friends to pick her up. If we are very lucky, someday Iraq may let us send them a box of chocolates. But I wouldn't count on it.

[Kanary]

57. *Very* well said!!

That's exactly what I was trying to get across. Mine wasn't heard, and I doubt that yours will be, either.

We still seem to be in a "force" mode. "They'll take our help and like it, dammit".

Kanary, with sadly shaking head.......

[pop goes the weasel]

86. I usually am not heard

You know how it is, Kanary. As a leftist, you get used to being ignored as unrealistic or flakey.

[Kanary]

87. "ignored"

Or... come here and get blasted.

Yes, I know how it is.

It means that nothing is going to change.

same/same

Kanary

[pop goes the weasel]

93. So which do you prefer?

Ignored, or your daily helping of verbal abuse? :)

[Kanary]

94. Silly me. I'd *prefer* peace and understanding.

See just how outdated I am?

Know where to find any of that?

Seems to be in ever increasing short supply.

Kanary

[pop goes the weasel]

95. next thing

you'll be wanting is some wild crazy scheme like not bombing people or not sending arms to ruthless strongmen. You crazy dreamer.

[Kanary]

97. You have me pegged correctly.

No wonder I'm such an outcast, eh?

Kanary, wild and crazy schemer...... :) who's now expecting a knock on the door.. :)

[annagull]

18. This could be a way out:

from this thread in LBN:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x540987
Iraq’s Shiites, Sunnis Form Anti-Occupation Body
Additional Reporting By Samir Haddad, IOL Correspondent

The United Iraqi Scholars Group -- which appointed a 16-strong leadership panel -- has vowed to boycott any political group set up by the United States and called for a stronger army than the small force envisioned by the US-led occupation authority, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
<snip>
The new body, grouping Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, pressed for sidelining the U.S.-appointed Governing Council and called for a meeting with U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi.
(more)
http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-05/08/article08.shtml  

So, if Brahimi gives this group legitimacy, we could well be forced to get out, or admit we just want the oil.
Also, I agree with other posters, the Iraqis do not trust us anymore, it would be best if we just leave and help thru the UN with rebuilding money.

[Mattforclark]

21. It would be nice if the house of cards

didn't collapse as we extract ourselves.......

....
...
..
.

[nonconformist]

24. YES, we should absolutely leave now

Before the torture scandal broke, I was a bit torn on this. I thought that we owed it to the Iraqi people to restore some sense of order and rebuild before we left.

I know now that is not possible at all.

The Iraqi's don't want us there. We have Saddam. There are no WMD (duh). The Red Cross has said that these abuses were so widespread they were likely condoned. Our decent troops are in dire danger from retaliation over this. British forces are becoming embroiled in their own abuse scandal. We have no hope to restore. We have no purpose there.

Whether we leave now or years from now, it will in the end be the same result. We can NEVER win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. NEVER.

[lastknowngood]

25. In reference to long term effects let's remember Viet Nam

15 years 58,000 american and over 2 million vietnamees. Wake up there is no upside to staying.

[BillZBubb]

27. Yes militarily we should get out and quickly.

We should foot the entire bill for a pan Arab stabilization force in Iraq under UN command.

The worst possible course both short and long term is for the US military to have a dominating presence there.

There will be no worse tarnish on our stature and image than the idiocy that got us into this war to begin with and the totally criminal and inept way we've handled the aftermath.

[scarletwoman]

33. OUT NOW!!!!

To hell with what's "better for America" -- what fucking right do we have to subject Iraq to being occupied by a foreign power so that WE can look better?!?!

Just GET OUT. Take the consequences of being fucked-up imperialist assholes, and quit trying to duck the responsibilty for it.

There's only ONE even remotely redeeming thing we could do on the way out -- raze Abu Graib prison to the ground. Then leave.

sw

[Snoggera]

37. I see your point.

Get the troops out, for the most part. However, why not leave a small group of peacekeepers as part of a UN force, and help rebuild the country we destroyed?

That would do a lot towards rebuilding the US' international image.

Just leaving and saying to hell with it doesn't work for me.

[NNN0LHI]

42. Do you know whats going to happen to any small group of peacekeepers...

...that we leave behind? They will be killed. Thats what will happen to them. The Iraqis are tired of having foreigners on their land. Doesn't that seem obvious to you yet?

Don

[Snoggera]

46. They are killing because of the current situation

If a respected, UN force was brought in, with free Red Cross access, and access for many other international groups who want to assist with humanitarian needs, the situation would be different. If the US was not dictating, but only a part of a large group of nations there to rebuild, the situation would be different.

I believe there is still hope for the rebuilding of this devastated country, if the rest of the world is allowed to take control. The US will bow its head in shame the entire time, but will at least act to rectify what has been done wrong.

I am aware that the pictures are devastating. I am not blind to the huge mistrust that Iraqi's have of foreigners. However, I do believe that humanitarian missions of an international nature will not only help rebuild Iraq, but will help those like myself to continue to believe that the US is capable of helping in a tragic situation and not just killing, raping and torturing. There are many in the US who volunteer for projects all over the globe. Iraq should now be one of them, with UN oversight.

[Kanary]

50. THEY. HATE. US.

That's the "situation".

THEY. HATE. US.

We'll be very lucky if they don't try to "level" the US.

THEY. HATE. US.

Kanary

[Snoggera]

54. I don't have the same level of emotion

and am trying to look towards the future.

So, they hate us. Assuming that is accepted as a fact, that most if not every single Iraqi hates the US, why not attempt to rectify the mistakes by ACTUALLY assisting with rebuilding and humanitarian aid?

Why not show them that America doesn't support what happened by helping?

Water supplies still need to be rebuilt. Electricity. Hospitals need supplies. Irrigation to grow crops. Medicine needs desperately to be delivered.

Maybe we are talking two different points here.

The military should cede control of the country to the UN until the previous needs are met. Those are my thoughts. To do otherwise would be implicit genocide.

[Kanary]

55. "Help" them, whether they want it or not?

And, by the way, that wasn't a "level of emotion", although I'm certainly not ashamed of feeling emotion. It's about time the US *DID* feel emotion over this mess!

It was *emphasis*.

Did you see the description yesterday by another poster...... describing the US staying as like a boy scout *forcing* his "help" on a little old lady who didn't *want* to cross the street?

Kanary

[Snoggera]

58. How does one know a country that has been basically demolished

wouldn't want assistance in rebuilding. Not rebuilding their government, but rebuilding their infrastructure. Providing medication to sick and dying people. Assisting with providing food until they are able to again produce or purchase with their oil revenues enough to sustain their population. Helping with getting the electricity and water flowing.

If they don't want international, including US assistance, then that's their decision. However, I can't believe for a second, given the dire circumstances that nation is experiencing, that they wouldn't accept temporary assistance with basic needs and services. The Iraqi's are not stupid. Their country has been invaded and occupied for over a year. They will need help. I am only saying that the US should provide some of this help.

If the US and UK get out without a transition in place for UN assistance, there will be hundreds of thousands of deaths. That's the situation.

[Kanary]

61. sigh.... you still seem to be intent on deciding for them

Then, if they don't choose your option, they're "stupid".

Could that be a clue why they don't want us there?

LET THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES DECIDE, THE SAME AS YOU WANT THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHO HELPS YOU.

It's really quite simple.

Kanary

[Snoggera]

66. My meaning

"LET THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES DECIDE, THE SAME AS YOU WANT THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHO HELPS YOU."

That is what I am saying as well. However, I differ with your assumption that this country does not desire humanitarian assistance with rebuilding and saving its population from hunger and disease.

You, I am guessing, think they want foreigners out, period. I think they want foreign, military aggressors out, but would welcome humanitarian assistance.

I guess either one of us could be mistaken. We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

[Kanary]

67. Well, it's good that you know for certain what "they want"

I have learned to go by the assumption that I don't KNOW what others want, until we've had a discussion about it.

And, don't assume that you know what *I* think. All of this deciding for others is what got us into this whole damned mess.

This is why we NEED a Dept of Peace.

We ALL, every single one of us, need to learn how to LISTEN TO EACH OTHER. At every level.

Kanary

[Snoggera]

77. I did not say I knew for certain what they want

That is most definitely a warping of my words. What I said was that I personally believe something. I did not say I know. Where did you get that? Did a little birdy tell you?

I grow weary.

[Kanary]

78. Over and over, you've been saying what "they want"

Then you added "they're not that stupid" to not want it.

Condescending, and it's very unbecoming.

Said it before and will say it again........that's the kind of thing that got us into this ugly mess.

We need to GET OUT NOW, then let the Iraqis decide if they WANT our "help".

They are real people. They can decide.

It doesn't matter what you believe, or think, or guess. What's important is what THEY want.

And right now, they want us OUT.

Just like you would want the guy who raped out OUT OF YOUR HOUSE.

Kanary

[Snoggera]

79. That is untrue

How does one know a country that has been basically demolished
wouldn't want assistance in rebuilding. (meant as a question)

you don't get it. Over and over I said "they want?" Bullshit. If used at all, even granting you that it may have been intimated with other words, it was used in context of a larger meaning.

What I have repeatedly stated is my opinion and my beliefs based upon my knowledge.

What you just replied is bullshit. Period.

[Kanary]

82. Your words are there for you to reread.

You're the one who said they'd want that, "they're not that stupid".

Whatever.

Maybe you just don't want to face the fact that you've been deciding for others.

Kanary

[Karenina]

103. Would YOU, Snoggera

want the guy who just BRUTALLY BEAT AND RAPED YOU to help you wipe the blood from your face? Love the disclaimer! Got any "brown" folks in your neighborhood?

[Snoggera]

80. Your words

"And right now, they want us OUT."

And just how do you KNOW that? Yes, they want the military out, but do they want humanitarian assistance out? Do you KNOW that?????

[Kanary]

84. NOBODY knows that

Neither do you.

THEY WANT US OUT.

THEN let them decide what they want from there.

All this talk about what we "should" do is so condescending. The Iraqis are quite capable of deciding what they want. They are quite capable of rebuilding their own country to their own specifications. They don't need ANYONE else deciding that for them.

ALL of this "rebuilding" stuff is just a pretext for staying in there and putting more billions in the pockets of crooked companies.

And, one small little detail........ what's coming out now is that it's most likely the "rebuilders" who are doing the raping and pillaging and torture. Gee....... maybe they don't want anymore of that....????

I really do wish you would take the time to read those replies to you about if it was *you* dealing with a perp.

Kanary

[Snoggera]

99. THEY WANT US OUT.

your words again.

Have you talked to an Iraqi lately? Do you have some special psychic arrangement for information?

Peace.

[Karenina]

104. Got Iraqis in my neighborhood

along with a whole lotta other folks too. I got Iraqi neighbors about whose families I worry. And yes, we talk. You'd be surprised, Snobgera at the level of Englisch they speak! FLUENT! Those to whom I've spoken are not pleased with the turn of events... I don't suppose you would accept my anecdotal evidence as credible...

[Kanary]

105. They've made it pretty plain, in every way available to them,

they want us OUT.

You telling me you really can't see that?? I know Bushwa can't see it, but otherwise, it seems quite plain. The rest of the world "gets it".

So, now you're arguing that we should stay and fight. I thought that wasn't your point.

Curiouser and curiouser.

And all your little verbal digs don't do anything to increase understanding.

So, have at it.... dig away. You're doing NOTHING to increase party unity. NOTHING

buhbye

Kanary

[Karenina]

123. We interrupt to bring you this Special Report

(French Horns)

IRAQIS TO AMIS! GO HOME!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x542427

[pop goes the weasel]

102. The Iraqis can do those things

without our "help." They are neither stupid nor uneducated. We should pay reparations, so that they have money for rebuilding, but other than that, we should just get out.

[annagull]

43. Do NOT raze the prison, Abu Graib

This prison is the Iraqi Bergen-Belsen, their concentration camp. It should be memorialized as a reminder, just like the gas chambers in Germany, of what can happen and what DID happen. If WE raze it, that will be seen as we are trying to destroy the scene of our crimes.

[nonconformist]

48. Agreed.

Besides, we should be letting the Iraqi people decide what they want to do with buildings in their country.

[scarletwoman]

51. Alright, then - ASK them what they want, and I'll bet they say "RAZE IT!"

I've seen several quotes from Iraqis on various blogs who asked way last year why didn't we destroy that hated prison, but allowed their libraries to be destroyed. It was already a hated symbol from the Saddam era, and now it's become a symbol for the atrocities committed by the occupiers.

Why should it be left in place for another despotic regime to use?

sw

[nonconformist]

64. If that's what the Iraqi people want, it should be done

But to do it now it would appear that we are destroying a crime scene, because that's what it is.

ANY building can be used for torture, or no building at all. Yes, it has a history of torture and is very much a symbol of atrocities committed both by Saddam and Bush, but I'd much rather see Iraqi's bulldozing it to the ground because they're the ones that have earned the right to do that.

[Karenina]

106. Once again, da white folks

think dey got brief in DICTATING da Scheiße. Ask Iraqis what THEY want?
Heh? WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK? :crazy: WE know what's best for them!

[scarletwoman]

108. Karenina, I believe we're on the same side of the argument here,

So I'm not sure if I'm understanding your post correctly or not.

I said what I said about razing Abu Ghraib precisely because I HAVE read quotes from Iraqis expressing that very desire.

I would not presume to dictate to them what is best for them, I am only repeating what some Iraqis have said themselves -- that of all the structures destroyed and looted in the invasion, the one structure that they would have GLADLY seen destroyed was Abu Ghraib. (For obvious reasons, imho.)

It's something of a side issue in any case -- the main point I was making in this thread is that the U.S. should get out NOW.

sw

[Karenina]

111. Don't mind me, SW

YES. I was absolutely agreeing with you. Apologies, that wasn't clear.
:loveya: But as you can see by my ranting, I AM QUITE DISTRAUGHT. Iraq and her people are not some far away concept to be debated dispassionately by those who couldn't even locate the country on a map. I see her expatriates on the street each day, eat at the imbiss, talk to the cab driver and live down the block. Jamal has returned from there safely. So far his family, who for months he was unable to contact, is safe. He used to call me anti-American, but has poked no such fun at me since. The level of hatred and contempt increases exponentially DAILY. I am privy to it having been designated as one of the "good ones" for articulating my heart-felt sense of shame and outrage. America's *MIC is engaged in a brutal rape on every level in Iraq. It MUST STOP.

[scarletwoman]

127. No problem! I think you are wonderful -- have always thought so!

My own emotions are running high (to say the least!) over this situation as well. I totally understand where you're coming from. I read about what's going on in Iraq and I literally shake with rage, or burst into weeping, or both at the same time.

It is bad enough to live in THIS country, surrounded by idiots and brutes, watching everything that was decent and good about our society be derided and stripped away.

But to watch what is being done to other human beings in THEIR country -- in MY name! -- is beyond bearing. America's karmic payback cannot come too soon for me. I would rather suffer and die myself, than to allow our government to wreak any further devastation on the rest of the planet.

I am fed up with ignorance, I am fed up with mendacity, I am fed up with jingoism and delusions, I am fed up the racist mentality of this nation. Let there come a reckoning, and let it be soon...

sw

[annagull]

110. So you know everybody"s race here?

Wow, you are beyond pundit, you are psychic!!! :wow:

[Karenina]

112. YUP! (Tee-hee-hee!)

Now, where DID I put that turban?

[scarletwoman]

52. No it's NOT like Bergen-Belsen.

The concentration camps were in no danger of being used again, a PRISON building IS -- as we have already seen.

sw

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. Time to go.

Unwinnable. More lives won't change the fact.

[renegade000]

65. yeah i think we should

granted we run the risk of chaos in iraq, but really what good can we do anymore? we've outstayed our welcome (if that idiom applies at all).

[Disturbed]

73. On June 30th ...

begin the evacuation of the Military.

Pull the American Multi-Corpse out, as well. Use the funds to aid in the re-building and allow Iraqi companies to do it.

[NNN0LHI]

75. If you want to know the truth, I think the evacuation of the Military...

...has already begun. They just have not told anyone yet.

Don

[Kanary]

100. You may be right.

I think there was something posted here the other day about troops being pulled back into Afghanistan.

It's wonderful, this truthful and forthcoming misadministration.

If I hadn't already gone through this once in my life, maybe I'd be dealing with it better. Deja vu sux.

Kanary

[knight_of_the_star]

81. I'm very torn on this

While I feel that there is NO way we could do ANY good for the people of Iraq after the torture scandal broke, I feel that if we are to prove to be a nation that lives up to its word and believes in honour then we will stay and work to fix the problem of our creation. I feel that as a matter of honour we are honour-bound to fix the mess that we made, not just cut and run.

[Kanary]

120. So, it's all about our "image", rather than what's best for Iraq..?

[Karenina]

122. SEND THE MONEY.

[scarletwoman]

126. There was nothing "HONORABLE" about the true intentions

behind the invasion and occupation to begin with. Nothing. We have no honor to preserve, this entire debacle was nothing but an exercise in imperialistic piracy.

The ONLY honorable thing to do is to immediately remove our military and our greedy corporate pirates, and then contribute just reparations to be administered by whatever agency the Iraqis choose -- and certainly under NO control of the U.S.

We are a nation with NO honor, bush* and the neocons have seen to that.

sw

[mike_c]

83. yes, we should really leave Iraq....

We have no right whatsoever to continue this bloody occupation.

[LeahMira]

92. Best fix ourselves first..

If we stay and somehow manage to help in an honest, noble, caring and culturally competent way (obviously this plan requires bush's removal from office, pronto) then we can simultaneously leave wiser and in a place of self-directed retrospection (as opposed to embarrassed, emasculated isolation).

Has the U.S. ever done this? Become wiser, and more retrospective as the result of its mistakes?

For better or for worse we will have become a mockery of what we once were (even if only in image). Eternally tarnished.

I think that as long as the U.S. can manage to keep on with this belief that it is better than anyone else, there will always be problems. Of course everyone cares most for his or her own country, but as we look around realistically we realize that Canada has a better health care system and Germans get better working conditions and longer vacations. It's foolish to imagine that the U.S. is the most moral nation in the world... always on the side of right and justice... when we know that is not true at all. The sooner we all admit it, or are forced to admit it, the better it will be.

[Karenina]

107. Thank you, Leah Mira

Schlaft gut!

[Ardee]

116. In summation

The motives of the American people are quite different from the motives of the Bush administration in many, many respects. If the people were given the facts about why we invaded Iraq they would be appalled and thoroughly disgusted with Bush. Unfortunately they are not given those facts but are manipulated by appeals to patriotism and lies about 9/11.

This blatant propagandising of world events and domestic conditions is abetted by the complicity and silence of the Democratic Party (with respect to Henry Waxman, Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy for their heroic efforts in ignoring the requests of their leadership to remain silent and acquiescent).

The only solution to this mess we have created is withdrawal from Iraq in favor of a UN effort to rebuild that nation, restore a representative government, an effort that excludes American troops, businesses and only includes American reparations.

[Karenina]

117. WOW!

I just got goose pimples. Thanks for that, Ardee! :toast:

[ScreamingMeemie]

118. Well...the Holy Roman Empire didn't last forever...

I think we need to help clean up our mess before we go home..

[Karenina]

119. Go HOME!

Just $end MONEY. ;-)

[markomalley]

124. The only thing that the UN should do is...

...bring in a Nuremburg-style tribunal to this country...examine all of the participants, military and civilian...exonerate the innocent, convict the guilty and then supervise the demilitarization of our economy...and then after an extended re-education campaign for the populace, hold supervised elections with UN-approved candidates for all federal offices...

...to the arab world, the UN is just an extension of the US...so why bother with them...

[leesa]

125. We can't possibly do that. We are, rightfully so, not trusted to be

noble or right in anything we do there. We have NO CREDIBILITY.