Feinstein and Boxer are two of the phoniest liberals

[othermeans]

I don't even know why those two are in the Democratic party. After the District Attorney refused to seek the death penalty in a cop killing Feinstein jumped up in front of a bunch of cops and said she thought that the death penalty should be brought. Even though the head of the Police Officers Association admitted that it was very difficult to obtain a death penalty conviction in San Francisco-70% of the population is opposed to it.

Like a dutiful little puppy Boxer wrote the State's Attorney General demanding the death penalty.

Never mind the fact the police have been unable to solve the 20 odd civilian murders in the same Black neighborhood. It didn't take them but a day to find the guy who killed the cop.

The district attorney Kamala Harris has stood her ground and refused to cave in during an election year. That's a courageous liberal.

Nothing worse than a neocon disguised as a liberal.

Full story at Yahoo link below

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=2&u=/latimests/20040508/ts_latimes/officersmurderdividessanfrancisco

[jjmalonejr]

1. You're calling Boxer and Feinstein neocons disguised as liberals?

Give me a break.

Why is it that when people disagree with someone on a particular issue, they immediately demonize them?

[othermeans]

13. Remember.....

When Feinstein admitted she kept a handgun in her purse when voting for gun control? How about when she cheesed her immigrant housekeeper out of the tax money? How about her old man working the crowd for a nice multi-million dollar contract for Iraq restoration work through Bechtel?

I'm not demonizing anyone check her out. I voted for her but it was a forced vote I'm not going to ever give it to a Republican.

Like I said the district attorney who refused to seek the death penalty in an election year is a much more courageous woman.

How about her vote on the Iraq War? Oh yeah all the Demos did it? NOT Senator Byrd had the conviction that his beliefs were right and said so in public. His speech about a darkness descending on the land is far more powerful than anything Feinstein has ever spouted.

[jjmalonejr]

20. If you see hypocricy, point it out.

Calling her a neocon is over the top, false, and does nothing to advance your overall point.

[othermeans]

23. You know you're right-I'm sorry

It just pisses me off so much when I read an article like this and everyone lets it slip by like it was nothing when a person is putting their political career on the line (Kamal Harris) for something they believe in.

[jjmalonejr]

24. See, NOW I hear you!

We can all find reasons to criticize any Dem, but when we froth at the mouth and act as though they've never done any good for anyone, we really dilute our point.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[othermeans]

16. Well...

I guess you have to toe the party line wherever you go. I'm from California, lived here my whole life worked always to have Democrats elected and stood up to Republicans and their trash talk-not an easy thing to do in San Diego. But hey I respect your righ to disagree with me about these two.

Oh yeah been doing that since 1968 when I was still in high school. Humphrey after RFK was assassinated I don't think the Democratic Underground was around then but I was.

Yeah so how do feel about Miller and Lieberman? Think we should not express our feelings about how they vote say anything bad about them. You know the first commandment of being a Republican?

1. Never speak ill of another Republican.

Think we should incorporate that into our party?

[Ardee]

28. well

perhaps you might take both Feinstein's and Boxer's record in total before you come unglued about one particular action. There are many democrats who support the death penalty and, though I am certainly not one of them, I have no intention of acted as childish as you make yourself appear....ohh and I applaud and support DA Harris' courageous stance!

[zbdent]

35. No, I'll speak ill of a Republican

;-)

But seriously folks, I don't like giving them any ammunition to use, even if they already have it in their magazine.

That is one of the very limited things that I agree with Repukes' beloved St. Ronnie. "Never speak ill of another whatever" = "Don't give the enemy any extra bullets".

[nostamj]

3. yeah!

replace them both with good dems like Zell Miller!!

re:puke:!

[Mz Pip]

4. OK let's vote Barbara out

and replace her with Bill Jones. Yeah, that works. :crazy:

This is the first time I have ever heard Barbara Boxer described as a neocon.


MzPip
:dem:

[Paradise]

18. lol! thanks. :) n/t

[knight_of_the_star]

40. No thank you

I do NOT want my state represented by a clone of Bill Frist or Arlen Specter!

[Gman]

5. You need to lay off that joint for a while

Boxer a neocon? Ha! That's hilarious.

[revcarol]

6. Sometimes they vote blatantly for commercial interests over the people's i

CA loves them, I guess.

[LWolf]

7. Flamebait

This Californian is happy to keep both Feinstein and Boxer.

[calimary]

29. This Californian is also happy to maintain them in the Senate.

Well, Boxer definitely, Feinstein I'm annoyed with, but certainly not EVER near enough to replace her with a republi-CON. No. They STAY. Boxer's actually pretty good, all things considered. VERY pro-choice, very compassionate, very vigilant about the environment. She opposes the war, and is less likely to compromise with the enemy too generously, as Feinstein sometimes does. Heck, sometimes I think Feinstein likes to give away the store to the Bad Guys. But even while a bit too pro-business-at-the-expense-of-everybody-else, she still is FAR, FAR better than the alternative.

[LWolf]

32. I agree on both counts.

Feinstein an annoyance? Yes. A neocon "fake" liberal? No way. And I like Boxer.

[Cleita]

8. Boxer does her best. I have no bones to pick with her.

Difi is another matter. She is a paid for corporate whore.

[jjmalonejr]

11. Hoo boy.

A paid for corporate whore?

Where do you people get this shit?

[Cleita]

15. Differences between Boxer and Feinstein.

Boxer always answers her mail and she sends you information on legislation that she is working on. Dianne has no use for you unless you are deep pockets contributor. Dianne voted for the Iraqi war resolution. Boxer didn't. It turns out Dianne's husband has ties to Bechtel who stood to gain a lot of business by going to war in Iraq.

[jjmalonejr]

17. I don't disagree with you that Boxer is the better of the two...

...I'm from CA and Boxer is my preferred Senator.

I just think that your characterization of DiFi as a "paid for corporate whore" is over the top.

[DjTj]

34. Has DiFi's office not returned your mail?

They're pretty strict in the office about answering every letter. Even though there can be a delay of several months, it keeps the staff pretty busy.

[Cleita]

37. I got only one answer one time, with a link to her website.

That was it. I have stopped writing her after the Iraqi war vote and then it was to tell her when she's up for reelection I won't vote for her.

[Ignis]

54. Feinstein's letters can be snarky.

After writing and calling her office numerous times to ask that she vote against the IWR, the only response I received was a rather condescending letter informing me that she was voting FOR the IWR--despite the fact that the majority of calls/letters from her constituents opposed that vote.

Thanks, DiFi. Thanks a lot.

[bluestateguy]

9. Perhaps Feinstein, not Boxer

FDR, Truman, JFK and LBJ all supported the death penalty. I don't think one would question their liberalism. Supporting the death penalty can be compatible with liberalism.

I happen to support it for people who murder blacks, gays, women, children, as well as white collar corporate crooks.

[physioex]

10. ignore

[bigbillhaywood]

14. Hey, hit Alert if you think so. Making such a public accusation is

against DU policy. Delete your post or I will do it for you.

[Hailtothechimp]

12. I'm smelling something funny on this one.

Anyone who has seen Barbara Boxer in action (especially when she nearly bitchslapped Wolfowitz a few months back) would call her a dutiful puppy. I'm calling bullshit.

[othermeans]

19. Nobody even read the article to see why I was angry

Jeez

[H2O Man]

25. You explained the article.

Perhaps if you feel strongly about the death penalty, you could address the issue, without making an attack on two women who tend to be fairly popular among democrats. You could also question how people who share some/many of your/our values can have views on important issues that strike you as "out of step" with democratic values. But to savage these two appears a bit extreme ... enough so that you have raised the suspicions of several people here. One of the things that is very important is that we recognize that, in order to have a large enough party to win national elections, we must form a confederacy of sorts, which will include those who agree with us on 80% of issues, and perhaps disagree with us on 20%. It is important to focus on the areas we agree. That is, my friend, the level of maturity it will take to win the White House and Senate and House.

[othermeans]

48. I agree with you up to a point

Noone is more adamantly opposed to the machinations of Reichsfuhrer Bush then I am and like I said before I would vote for the two Democratic Senators from California before I would ever vote for a Republican or even a Green Party Candidate.

But when you take someone's life and find out you made a mistake do you say: "You know I'm sorry but you weren't in the 80%?"

Building a consensus is important but where do you stop when it comes to building your consensus?

Do you include people who favored the war in Iraq? Do you include people who don't want gun control? tax cuts for corporations? What 80% should I choose?

I don't know maybe your right I shouldn't stand firm on this death penalty thing just let it go.

After all the important thing is to build a consensus.

[H2O Man]

50. "In matters of conscience,

the law of the majority has no place. It is slavery to be amenable to the majority no matter what its decisions are." - Gandhi

Let's compare two threads on here tonight: in one, you bring up the death penalty; in another, people discussed Jim Morrison pro and con, in terms of free speech.
I have a very close friend who was in prison in NJ for a crime he did not commit. In 1967, the prosecutors tried very hard to have the death penalty inflicted. My friend survived, and because some "famous" folks took up his case, his story is relatively well-known. Denzel Washington played my friend in the movie The Hurricane. Listen: I oppose the death penalty, because innocent people do die. My friend almost died. So I oppose the death penalty.
Guilty people die from the death penalty. And there are individual cases so cruel and outrageous, that it takes a lot for me to not want these rabid dogs to die. So I understand that other people can feel like the death penalty is A okay.
Then, there are guilty people who may die, who may have been redeemable. I am not able to judge accurately, and do not feel the government can, either. So, again, I oppose the death penalty.
I do not care if I am the only person in a crowd of 100 who opposes it. I welcome the opportunity to discuss it, without ever resorting to name-calling or insulting anyone.
Finally, the Morrison post is also important in a sense. Free speech allows me to debate the death penalty. It's interesting that others feel free to trash Morrison for being an alcoholic, and no one accuses them of being undercover agents. Their not. They are merely ignorant, and mildly obnoxious. We don't want to be like them.
You feel strongly about an important subject. But you put it in a way that pushed some buttons on here! I'm not telling you what to think or do, merely suggesting that you re-phrase it. Always remember that people have their own experiences: if you've ever had a loved one savagely murdered, you might feel very differently about capital punishment. There's room for differences of opinion.

[Ignis]

56. Hurricane Carter! (off-topic)

You're a close friend of Hurricane Carter? That rocks. :)

I've worked with various anti-captital-punishment organisations over the years, and I've always wanted to meet the Hurricane. I'm so glad that his book was finally made into a film that could do his story justice.

[Pachamama]

21. Are you a Mole? Or should we be calling you Bill Jones?

Boxer a neo-con??

Ha ha ha ha...that's a good one....

I proudly marched next to Diane Feinstein, Boxer and Kamala Harris at the March for Women's Lives...all great democratic women...while they might not see eye to eye on the issue of the Death Penalty (and a lot of people including myself have mixed emotions on the issue)they are each great women fighting for what is right...

[othermeans]

46. Paranoia will destroy ya

[Paradise]

22. "Nothing worse than a neocon disguised as a liberal."

You oughtta know, "othermeans"...
In your case, this may othermeans goodbye :hi:

[bigbillhaywood]

26. If you think othermeans is a Freeper, alert the moderators. Making

accusations is against DU policy, and your posts may be alerted and deleted.

[Disturbed]

27. Agree!

I'm in the San Fran area. Both of these Dems are lackeys of the Oligarchy. In fact, most Dems are and don't represent non-wealthy constituants. The Democratic Party (overall is a miserable org. that has swung to the right to appease the Corporate Machine that is served by both the Right and the Dems. There are a few progressive reps in Congress but they are mainly ignored. I believe that Bushco will win the re-selection and I place the blame at the so called Democrats because the majority of the party are chickenshit weasles.

[H2O Man]

30. For the sake of discussion,

let's agree that many of the folks at the "top" of the democratic party are "weasles." (Much in the way that most of the people running the unions are now enemies of the working class.) Then, I believe, it is still extremely important to kick bush out of office .... and this will only be done by people at the bottom level - the actual foundation - of the party organizing at the grass-roots level. This type of organizational action allows us the opportunity to rebuild, from that bottom, up. Yet it can not be done by name-calling or other tactics that result from frustration with those at the top. We do not have that as an option.

[Disturbed]

31. Green Party

I am a member and will support the Dems over the NeoFascists.

I am real frustrated with the Dems but the choice is too obvious.
Too bad that we don't have a better system for other parties to actually have a voice. It's a setup of the two party system rules that
hampers real choices.

[H2O Man]

36. Malcolm X once told me

that if you have medicine for a sick people, do not package it in a bottle with a skull & bones on it, or they will reject it. We need to package our medicine in a democratic bottle.... in 2004 .... and then work towards the day when we can deliver a green medicine.

[PurityOfEssence]

33. Sneer at Findspine all you want, but Boxer's for real

You may not like everything she does, the she's a POLITICIAN, and she truly has a moral compass and guts.

[fujiyama]

39. Boxer is a lot better

than Fienstien. Check out their records.

Fienstien OTOH is no better than Lieberman. She's proven herself to be a corporate whore in MANY ways.

Let's see, she voted for the FIRST tax cuts. Yes that's right, she voted for Bush's major legistlative policy goal. For that itself a good primary opponent should run against her.

She also voted for the Iraq War, the recent medicare package, and a whole lot of other shit.

She sucks.

Give Boxer some credit though - voted against the war, against the tax cuts, against the medicare crap, and has a prett decent record overall.

[knight_of_the_star]

41. Which is why I will work to undo Feinswine in '06

If she was up for re-election this year, I would bite my tongue, hold my nose and vote for her, but I think it will be safe to replace her with a real liberal in 2006 once Bush is gone.

[Cleita]

51. I'm with you.

It's time to change the guard. Old GOP lickers out. New liberals in.

[Ignis]

57. Bump her to governor, maybe.

I think DiFi might do well as a strong governor for CA, leaving the senate seat free for someone a little more Boxer-esque. Thoughts?

[Paradise]

64. your thoughts, Ignis, make a lot of sense. n/t

[fujiyama]

65. Cool idea

but unlikely.

Being in the senate has a lot of perks, that being in the governor's seat just doesn't have. I have no doubt she'd make a better governor than Arnold. Still she has a nice cushy safe seat in the senate. Being a governor sounds more difficult, especially of a state as large, complex, and one with as many problems as CA has. I don't blame anyone for NOT wanting to deal with the budget defecit problms, etc. Plus, most know they can't get by on star power as Ahnuld can.

In many cases being the governor is often a stepping stone to either running for the senate, or president. I think by now she knows she's not going to be on a national ticket (that gun control thing would by itself kill any chances), and either will stay where she is until she's done with public office, or eventually be given a cabinet position.

[knight_of_the_star]

42. Oops

Double-post.

[physioex]

43. What's with the freepers today?

[Used and Abused]

44. Is anyone going to address the actual question raised in the post?

Why are they going against Kamala Harris and seeking the death penalty? I notice there is blatant favoritism here--had this been Donna Brazille, or Al Sharpton who had rallied for the death penalty, I'm sure they would have been called every name in the book on this forum.

[othermeans]

45. Thank you that was my point

I'll admit I was out of line calling them neocons but like I said before it pisses me off when they jump on the death penalty bandwagon. One person pointed out we should build a concensus but where do stop?

I feel the death penalty is unfairly used against the poor and minorities and I really don't think you can argue the point that taking someone's life is something we can equivocate on. You can't really say ooops I'm sorry here is your life back.

Please just read the article.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

47. DiFi never WAS a "liberal"...

That was just the label put on her because of her start here in SF.

She is -- and always has been -- fairly centrist/moderate. Friendly to the "downtown businesses" (as we say here in SF), pro-cop, hawkish, and financially conservative.

She IS more socially liberal than most moderates.

Now, as for Boxer -- hmm, Barbara Boxer or Bill Jones?????

Gee, tough choice....NOT. :eyes:

[Ignis]

55. Oh, DiFi's definitely a big, big hawk.

I'm certainly not happy about her frequent votes to inflate the 'defense' budget. But CA has so many military installations--and has had, since pre-WWII--that it's difficult for any CA senator to vote against this particular cash cow, I suppose. It comes with the territory of the state, just as Repubs in Texas or Florida have to pretend to care about the interests of the Latino community.

But the fact that voting against any military pork is a risky game in CA makes Boxer's voting record all the more laudable, I think.


'Downtown businesses'--gah, if I had a nickel for every time I had to listen to DiFi or Willie Brown sing the praises of big business.... Who wants the arts or affordable housing in SF, anyway?

[DFLforever]

49. I agree with you, it's disgusting, and all too typical

of many politicians, liberal and conservative. Think Ashcroft.

Heh, what's to lose by asking for the head of a cop-killer? and maybe something to gain by pandering to the dull-witted who will think the senators tough on crime and strong on law-enforcement because of it.

Only a few will notice what they're up to. Be sure to let them both know that you have.

[RetroLounge]

52. Poop

eom

[wyldwolf]

53. one more time... define "liberal" - - - - - - >

...and tell us the positions one must take on every issue to be a true liberal.

I'll wait. I'm patient.

[OpSomBlood]

58. Feinstein is a gigantic hypocrite.

She carried a handgun (because she felt threatened) at a time when it was illegal for anyone else in San Francisco to do so. Some even claim that she signed a special concealed-carry permit for herself. Then she had the audacity to vehemently campaign against CCW licensure for the general public.


Dianne Feinstein, self-appointed gun safety expert, handling a rifle in the single most dangerous way possible...magazine in, bolt closed, finger on the trigger, pointed at a room full of people.

[Raster]

59. a bit ofperspective...if I was a public figure in this day and time...

...I would take steps to insure my security. To not do so would be foolish.

[FredScuttle]

60. Don't forget how DiFi rose to power

she was named Mayor after a psychotic Supervisor assassinated Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk in City Hall in 1978.

[Raster]

61. i remember, death to milk, by twinky...

[OpSomBlood]

62. All citizens should be allowed to take such steps.

The unfortunate reality is that we live in a violent world, and people should be able to choose not to be victimized.

As I mentioned in another thread, ponder how many rape victims are in favor of more gun control.

[leesa]

63. I certainly agree that Feinstein is a DINO, Boxer is probably not though

Boxer is really weak though. Feinstein said "Forgettaboutit" when people complained about the stolen 2000 vote. She seems to be on Israel's payroll and all her votes favor them including warring votes. She's a real hawk. She hasn't done much of anything to fight Bush, agrees with him more often than not.

I will work to get her out of office when this nightmare is over.

[Athletic Grrl]

66. Correct me if I'm wrong,

but it's my understanding that DiFi wasn't going to seek reelection. But if she does AND Shrubshit is actually elected this time, do you protect the incumbent seat or risk losing it to some POS like Roherbacher?

I may not agree with Dianne or Barbara on every issue down the line, but for chrissakes, they're FAR better than the alternative.

Kamala Harris is taking a VERY courageous stand, but she's going up against the corrupt, rightwing SFPD. This is a battle she will most likely be forced to concede.

[Pachamama]

69. I know Kamala...that "Grrrlll" is tough & has honor & integrity..

....she won't lose...And she has a bright future ahead of her...as a great Democratic leader..,

[pearl]

67. STFU!

n/t

[JHBowden]

68. Boxer is hardcore.

While Feinstein is a part-time Democrat, making a similar case against Boxer is quite a challenge. From abortion to taxes to foreign policy -- on 90%+ of the issues, Boxer is almost always on our side.

[Pachamama]

70. I agree...

...I only support Feinstein as long as the Repukes control congress & White House...if we ever see a glorious day again where this changes, she (Feinstein)won't get my vote...

While I disagree w/ Boxers call against Kamala re. seeking the death penalty, I know she is only doing this for her tough on crime opponents for the upcoming challege from Bill Jones...Its a political strategic decision I can live with...same goes for Bill Lockyer (CA State Gen Attorney for the non-left coast DU'ers reading this)...he wants to challenge the Governator Ahhhnuld and if he doesn't seek the death penalty in a cop killer case, then he'll be portrayed as weak by Ahhnuld who likes to hold guns and get bad guys in movies...

[Doomsayer13]

71. oh, give me a break

Boxer has always supported the Death Penalty, as well as a large majority of Californians. In a case so clear cut as this, where it is genuinely cut and dry that the person cruelly massacred a police officer, he deserves to be punished to the fullest extent. Are we to punish Boxer for being consistent with her views? Or are we to praise consistency only when it is consistency with the liberal position?

Boxer is one of the most liberal members of the Senate. She voted against IWR, 87 billion, the Bush medicare bill, and both tax cuts. I guess if you think she's a neocon disguised as a liberal, you should vote for Bill Jones and see how much of a difference that'll be.