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It's simple, folks: we torture as a matter of policy

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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:10 AM
Original message
It's simple, folks: we torture as a matter of policy
This isn't an aberration, so don't congratulate yourself that you live among the good or absolve yourself. We torture as a matter of state policy and have for a long time. It's much worse under these thugs, because they truly feel to be the master race, but it's policy.

Not only does it make sense, it makes sense from every vantage. The only thing that makes it hard to comprehend or accept is an ingrained presumption of decency. If you pull out the filter that "of course we're the good guys", everything else makes perfect sense and is quite consistent.

We demand others to be subject to international law and the War Crimes Court, but demand to simultaneously not be subject to it, yet a prime de facto Grand Jury.

We avoid declaring wars, so we can dance around the Geneva Convention.

We have a huge, unaccounted budget for these kinds of things; how do you think we use that money?

We keep suspects in questionably foreign bases so we can specifically avoid any accountability. Personnel based there has disappeared, detainees have attempted suicide, who knows what else goes on there.

Military Intelligence and private contractors run the interrogations, and we keep "shadow prisoners" who are off the books. The abuse of October-December '03 that's the current issue was done at night; this is deliberate sleep deprivation, which is a classic torture procedure.

We kidnap families of wanted Baathists, including women and children.

There are numerous instances of torture that were documented in Vietnam and nearby areas during that conflict. There are also substantiated tortures and murders throughout South and Central America throughout the 70s and 80s that were done by the CIA and charming private operations like Pug Winokur's Dyncorp. It's not for nothing that there's a joke among Latin American Diplomats that they feel happiest and most relaxed when posted in D.C.: it's because there's no U.S. Embassy there.

There has been much open talk in the media and government since 9-11 about when and to what degree torture is justified, and the lack of outcry has been taken as tacit approval. The trial balloons floated by swimmingly. Indeed, much of the country does approve, so this hand wringing and keening is nothing but a load of self-serving denial and equivocating.

There will be more things coming out because we do this as policy; it's not a few bad apples, it's the whole barrel.

What's good is that as the administration and its apologists go on record covering for or excusing it, they say things that are truly ugly. With each statement that "it's only 6", they show two things: 1) that they're willing to claim complete knowledge of something when they haven't the slightest idea what's going on, and 2) that a little torture's just fine. It's just "them" after all, a rogue group of midnight performance artists, and their subjects are more or less subhuman anyway, since they're the worst of the worst, and anyone from "over there" just doesn't value life the same way we do, hates us and have vowed to destroy us and blah blah blah...

When more things come out, everyone who's gone on record saying that it's "just 6" oddballs needs to have that brought up for explanation. If it's something that happened without our knowledge, how do we know that that's all there is? From a purely intuitive standpoint, the default assumption would be that there's much more.

There IS much more, and what's worse is that it's standard operating procedure. No, not everyone, and no, not every facility, but the "high value" ones, yes, and there are a bunch of "high value" ones.

Once the policy's there, life has been commodified to a degree that even worse things will happen.

Yep. Lotsa apples.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. I guess violence is the only thing we people understand.
nt
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SEpatriot Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. And the cover up will continue until there is a serious change
"Aberrations" (a very poor choice of words) occur in hot zones. This is not justified, but a fact of warfare.

What occurred here did not happen in the context of a hot zone (although it is becoming one) and is not accurately classified as an "aberration."

Shadow operatives of all stripes are roaming freely in Iraq as "contract" people. These people are schooled in the techniques of the KUBARK manual and the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual.

The "6" are there to take the fall.
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mwdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Oh, wait, did we not outsource torture?
My bad.
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SEpatriot Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. A little from column "A"...
a little from column "B" - it helps to blur the line.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Huh?
In all candor, I can't make heads or tails of what you say here, and that's not an attempt to marginalize a critic.

My trusty old dictionary defines it thus: "a departure from what is right, true, correct, etc. 2) a deviation from the normal or the typical 3) mental derangement or lapse", so I'd say it's the right word for the approach the administration and others are using to gloss this over.

Yep, shit happens in war; that's why there are rules. If it wasn't a war zone, then it was even more of an aberration.

Were you agreeing with me? It would seem so from the header and the last two paragraphs, but hellifIknow.

Care to rephrase?
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SEpatriot Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Maybe a little unclear
Here's what I'm saying:

I think that using the term "aberration" is a whitewash for this situation. From an operational/military point of view, an aberration would be more of something that happens in the heat of battle or fog of war - a soldier beats a POW who is just taken after an intense firefight. Whereas, if the same combat soldier mutilated or killed the POW we would generally consider that an atrocity or war crime. Without getting into the code of military justice, I am speaking really of terms which are going to be thrown around in the public and how those effect the public psyche.

The acts of non-combat personnel (the MP's in this case) who are not in a combat zone (or at least a hot zone) which appear to be done with deliberation and pre-meditation should not be labeled as an aberration - I think this language is to dismissive. It is, I believe, historically and grammatically correct - I do not think that this is systemic in the U.S. military. I do think, however, that the people who were in charge had very deliberate and specific intents and the language used to describe such events should reflect the same.

So, yes, we do agree.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. .....and for a little fun on a slow night and when we're horny, 'eh?
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. "We kidnap families of wanted Baathists"
Baathists as in the ones with the SECULAR government?
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Funny how that works...
Yeah, I haven't kept up with it lately, but there were many instances immediately after the fall of Baghdad of us taking family members of the playing card guys into custody to try to flush out their kin.

It is amusing that the Bush administration went to such lengths to topple a secular government, isn't it?
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. and NEVER forget: if it can happen there, it can happen HERE! . . .
if BushCo isn't removed from power, there's nothing to stop them from designating anyone who disagrees with them "enemy combatants," locking them up, doing whatever they please to them, and throwing away the key . . . no access to lawyers, no appeals, no contact with family or friends . . . not even an acknowledgement of who's been selected for detention . . . if you don't think it can happen here, you haven't been paying attention . . .
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