This is human nature and war is hell

[question everything]

Many years ago, in the 60s, I think, an academic research showed that "Nazi-like" torture could happen in this country.

Volunteers were told to provide electric shocks to others, while continuously increasing the voltage, even though the "subjects" were in pain. I do not remember whether these were real shocks or whether the subjects pretended to be...

The conclusion, then, was that sadistic tortures was not unique to Germans, that, under the "right" conditions, many humans would do the same.

I was reminded of this study in light of the recent torture reports from Iraq. I was also thinking that most of us cannot imagine how we would react while in a war zone. Whether under attack directly, or under threat of attacks, whether bullets are flying over our heads or whether a vehicle right in front of us is blown to pieces.

The reality is that under stressful conditions people will do things that normally they would not do while, say, mowing their lawns and we really should not be surprised by the images that we see now.

Like very thing else in this war, this was something that should have been anticipated and prepared and guarded for. But then...

[quispquake]

1. Check out "Plaid Adder's" column on DU's Front Page

She goes heavy into the experiment that you were talking about...

[bryant69]

2. This is a fair point

And it points back to who set up this set of circumstances; President Bush and his advisors. While I certainly think that we have to hold those who committed and, more importantly, those who ordered these acts responsible, we also need to focus on how set up this situation in the first place.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[wtmusic]

3. No, the reality is that there are rules even in war

and nations are expected to adhere to international law during wartime ( especially nations which spend a lot of time championing their own moral rectitude)

[Az]

4. Reconstructed reality

There is a natural reaction to performing harm to another human that poses no threat to us. Being social creatures our natural response to such actions is revulsion. However our natural reactions can be redirected by means of subterfuge and misdirection. In the case of the experiment a series of lies enabled the test subject to harm the other members. In actual fact there was no current be passed through the subject and they merely acted as though there were. But the real test subject had been informed that they had volunteered for this study and thus this lifted the natural resistance to harming others.

There are all manner of ways that the human psyche can be twisted to allow harm to others. The primary weapon of choice in warfare is to dehumanize the enemy. This creates a couple of reactions. First it dulls the targets sense of connectivity to their victims. They have been removed from the family of human in their mind. Second rhetoric is pumped into them that not only are they alien but they also mean us harm. This further removes any reluctance to do them harm. If there is a particularly strong emotional connection to a recent event to leverage these feeling on the subjects may even be overjoyed at the chance to deliver what they believe is justifiable vengence on them.

[kiahzero]

5. The Stanford Prison Experiment is far more relevant

The one you're talking about deals with obediance to authority. The SPE deals with what happens when ordinary people become the authority over people that have been dehumanized and humiliated.

[IronLionZion]

6. They were not real shocks in that study.

They people just screamed to sound like they were in pain. But I get your point. Stress can make you do things you wouldn't normally do and so will following orders.

[Jim__]

7. The individual soldiers bear the least responsibility

They are away from home in an alien and dangerous environment. Most of us take our clues about what is "moral" activity by the reaction of those around us to what we are doing. I think that most of us, if we were put in the same situation as those soldiers, and directed to do what they were doing, would do what they did. I don't find their activity so shocking.

What I do find shocking is that this was clearly encouraged by the US authorities - who will now, of course, try to put all the blame on the soldiers involved.

Is there anyone who can claim that they did not know that the US was engaged in torturing prisoners? Didn't we hear about the deaths of the Afghani prisoners who were packed into trailers and left out in the broiling sun for hours? Does anyone imagine that we are simply "questioning" the prisoners at Guantanamo?

I think our country openly engages in torture now. I think we all have to acknowledge that. And, if we think this is immoral, we have to act to stop it. It's not enough to be "shocked" at what these soldiers did.

[CWebster]

8. Absolutely

Peer reinforcement is manipulated.

What is to stop it without the voice of outrage which will perservere and not simply react from one outrage to the next? Politically I just don't see that force emerging or gathering enough steam in this country. There is a void.