could you...would you...under orders, torture a person?

[mopaul]

not me brotha, i couldn't do it. not if the guy had killed my mother, i couldn't torture anyone. even if i was in the army and the sarge was screamin' at me i couldn't torture a person.

i was never in the military, and it's just as well, cause i could never threaten or terrorize anyone, or shoot anyone who wasn't shooting at me.

[TexasProgresive]

1. It'd be the stockage for me. n/t

[CharlesGroce]

2. the Geneva Conventions

Say that soldiers have a duty to refuse orders to violate the conventions.

Never ever.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

4. Only in very limited circumstances.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[everythingsxen]

42. I have already looked into that dark place in myself..

and I know the answer.

I could, I would. In the circumstance of being in a military (or even para-military) unit, with orders to torture...

I would have to obey. It's simply in my nature to obey orders.

Naturally I would make a formal protest and would even send it as high on the Chain of Command as necessary; in the end though, I would still do it.

Sorry to have to be honest about it. If it makes anyone feel better, I would not be happy about doing it.

[bhunt70]

54. not to make an issue out of it, but I find your avatar ironic considering

"I would have to obey. It's simply in my nature to obey orders."

[AlienGirl]

72. He once obeyed the order to snort tequila

Just thought I'd mention.

Tucker

[AlienGirl]

68. Your honesty is refreshing

Most people simply seem to have a knee-jerk, "No, I could never, ever!" reaction to the question. But you've not only identified the fact that you *could*, you have also identified the circumstances that could push you to that point--and therefore, you can avoid those circumstances.

The Oracle at Delphi had a sign over the entrance to the oracular chamber. "Know Thyself," it said. It seems you do.

Tucker

[drfemoe]

100. Is there no "order" to disobey illegal "orders"?

Is that not a standing order? To obey legal orders only?

How confusing that must be ..
"Simon says ... Hop on one foot"
"Hop on one foot"
Do you obey only when Simon says?

[everythingsxen]

120. Yes but..

what most eveyone in this thread is forgetting is that we are talking about a group of people who have trained together and fought together.

You form a special bond with your unit, a bond not unlike that of best friends. There is also a certain element of mob mentality.

It's not *just* about obeying orders. It's also about not wanting to let your friends down. It's hard to explain.

I think most of people who have replied to this thread seriously overestimate their own ability to resist things like this.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. So in those limited circumstances, you'd be willing to believe anything?

Because that's what a person being tortured will tell you...anything they think you want to hear...whether it's the truth or not.
I mean...don't get me wrong...if you are going to let someone do your thinking for you...good that it is a scholar like Alan Derschowitz who has successfully freed murderers as long as they could afford him (and I say that as an advocate of the constitution) but perhaps Alan didn't stop to think that while he was fantasizing about extra judicial means to save the world, it is one of the less effective means.

[Darranar]

96. Why Torture Doesn't Work

Why Torture Doesn't Work: A Critique of Alan Dershowitz' Case for Torture

Alan Dershowitz, the renowned legal scholar and civil libertarian, has stirred up a small hornets nest since the September 11 attacks by talking openly about the possibilities of sanctioning torture in America. Dershowitz feels it is incumbent on him to lead a discussion on a choice he feels is unpleasant but necessary.

Torture is regarded by progressive civil libertarians as an abomination that every civilized nation should outlaw. Modern international humanitarian law categorically prohibits its use. The Rome Statute classifies torture as a crime against humanity, the Third Geneva Convention (1949; Aritcles 3, 17, 87 and 130) prohibits its use against prisoners of war and the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949; Articles 3, 32 and 147) probhits it against civilians in situations of armed conflict. The United Nations Declaration of Human Rights (1948; Article 5) states unequivocally, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." Gloss is put on these declarations concerning torture by the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1984), to which the United States is a party.

The Convention defines torture:

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Dershowitz is regarded by many as a progressive civil libertarian. That he should part company with others on a matter that many feel defines progressivism has outraged more than a few. However, when one such as Dershowitz suggests that we cast aside much of what we hold dear, perhaps we should give him a hearing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/03/11_torture.html

[Guava Jelly]

5. I could tickle the shit outta someone

Or make them listen to the theme from "One day at a time" over and over until they go nuts...
Thats as sadistic as i get.Those pictures i saw were equivelent to snuff films. Sick twisted porn..
Geneva is more then a pretty name..

[Mick Knox]

6. Well if he killed my mother and I had the chance

I wouldnt need orders.

[Blue-Jay]

7. No. Not ever.

Could I kill a person if my life were threatened? Sure. No problem.

Could I kill a person who was threatening the lives of the people that I love? You bet. In a heartbeat.

Could I torture a prisoner who has become a non-threat? No way. That is the behavior of a sociopath. I'm better than that.

[raysr]

10. Sy Hersh

on Democracy Now last nite sort of gave the torturer's in question a pass because they were ignorant hicks from W.VA.

[bhunt70]

55. well thats kind of ignorant.

[Kool Kitty]

69. Sy Hersch was on Brian Lehrer's show this morning

and he said that he doesn't believe that these young kids from the countryside of West Virginia would know that the best way to humiliate these people was to treat them in the manner they were treated, according to the photographic and print evidence. He didn't call them "ignorant hicks" on Mr. Lehrer's show.

[jimshoes]

17. Agree Agree Agree

n/t

[blondeatlast]

132. Agreed. Kill, yes--I could kill ObL and others.

Torture--no fucking way.

[napi21]

8. I suspect you have never been in the military.

I'm not saying that what they did is acceptable. It'S NOT!

My son is in the Navy, and I always tell him the people in the military are brain washed. He laughs and says, "if that's what you want to believe."

18 years ago, he went through Basic. No I wasn't there, but I can tell you, they are trained to NEVER disobey a direct order! EVER!!!
It's been explained to me that the reason for that is, on a battle field, there isn't time or option to have discussions.......people die from that! I agree.

I think this could be why you saw the tourcher of the Iraqi's. These soldiers aren't allowed to disobey!

[mopaul]

9. i was never in the military

[raysr]

13. I was in the military

and flat out disobeyed many orders, none as serious as these guys obeyed. No moral compass, it wasn't that they were ordered to do it, they probably wanted to.

[blondeatlast]

133. They do have a shit-eating grin attitude in the pictures.

There expressions are far more disturbing thatn the tortures.

I thought the USA was better than that.

[newyorican]

22. I was in the Navy also...

and we were all taught to obey all lawful orders. Anything else is sophistic bullshit and no excuse. The person most at risk involving an illegal order is the issuer. I was in the Navy 24 years ago, FWIW.

[RapidCreek]

134. Thank You!

I was in the navy as well. I disobeyed several orders I was given...and I made no bones about why. I pointed out that they were in direct contravention to the UCMJ and I was under NO OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW THEM. Further I made quite clear that I would report these "orders" right up the order givers chain of command. Interestingly, at that point....the orders I was given, were painted as "misunderstandings" by those who attempted to give them. Funny how that worked out.

You see, it was assumed that I was an ignorant, feckless boob, incapable of or unwilling to think on his own or inform himself. Sadly this is the case with about 90% of those who enlist. The military capitalizes on this fact and aims to keep their members unaware that they can and should disobey unlawful orders. In fact it is a soldiers duty to do so.

Soon accusations were made that I thought of myself as a 'Sea Lawyer'. For those who don't know....that, in military circles, is a term of derision. Oddly in my days as a 'Sea Lawyer' I was the victor in every 'case' I fought....much to the chagrin of those who labeled me such. I instigated the prosecution of a Master Chief who is now in Leveanworth for the sexual assault of several female recruits. I got a male recruit who was being improperly charged with, and kicked out of the Navy for, striking his Company Commander. Funny...over my time in the Navy those are the two accomplishments I take most pride in.

RC

[DustMolecule]

59. oh puh-leeezzzz

:eyes:

[progressivebydesign]

66. Were they ordered to smile gleefully and snap photos???? N/T

[drkedjr]

11. Scientific Literature

Research is loaded with US undergraduate and graduate published studies regarding students administering
electrical shock in "controlled human studies" involving punishment if wrong answers/responses were observed
by unseen "student" observers. Yes, torture is easily done by the average, immature mind.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. especially if they think

that the person in charge knows what they are doing...its a diffusion of responsibility issue

[bobbieinok]

124. this was Milgram experiment - there's also the Stanford prison experiment

[burythehatchet]

12. If it was personal I could,

and then be ashamed for the rest of my life

[Khephra]

14. You'd have to torture me first to make me torture someone else

and at that point, it's not really my will anymore is it?

[Christ was Socialist]

15. I would most likely destory the Unit and officers above me

I've always promised myself if i ever went into the milltary, it would be fratracide all day.

[moonshadow2020]

38. good bush bad bush

<img src=>

[moonshadow2020]

16. He's Wounded. HIT HIM!

He's Wounded. HIT HIM!
He's Wounded. HIT HIM!

http://pulpnonfiction.blogspot.com

BRUTAL KILLING OF WOUNDED UNARMED"SUSPECTEDTERORISTS"
WHO LOOK MORE LIKE INNOCENT FARMERS TO US.LIVE TARGET PRACTICE?

What range do you have?
have lazer range on him
go auto range
spot
range
auto
ok got auto range on him?
roger
HIT him
got him
good
second one
hit the other one
hit the truck
to the right
see if there is anybody moving by the truck
wait for moving
i dont see any
good store that
auto range store
oops there another guy underneath there
underneath
moving right there
fire
hit him
target 4
were taking other truck out?
wait for movement by the truck
movent right there
roger
hes wounded
hit him
hes in the truck
hit the truck hit him
go forward of it hit him
roger

French TV screens images 'of US helicopter crew killing Iraqis'

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=58&story_id=7214

PARIS, May 4 (AFP) - The French cable television station Canal Plus on Tuesday will broadcast images, stolen in Iraq, of a US army helicopter killing three Iraqis, one of them wounded, who do not appear to be posing any threat.

END.

My wife and I have never owned a gun and neverintendto.

You can call us chickendoves.

[KAZ]

18. Torture? For what reason? Revenge?....

Depends on my mood. I've beaten Hannity and Delay within an inch of their lives several times, at least in my mind. To get information? There are those that say it's ineffective, and dubious, at best. But I'd be willing to participate in that method indefinitely on Hannity.

Seriously, hard question if the suspect had info (I thought) could prevent a catastrophe.

[MrSlayer]

19. Not for no reason. I could easily torture someone who deserves it.

Torturing and humiliating defenseless prisoners of war is not my bag. You'd have to do something really serious for me to consider torturing you but if you cross that line, out come the white hot tongs.

[prolesunited]

29. And just who is the arbiter

of "something really serious"? What if someone decided you did something serious enough to warrant torture? Would it be justified?

Your response, however, is not the least bit surprising judging from you previous posts on death penalty and crime threads.

You say torture in "not your bag," but somehow I see you actually enjoying the pain and suffering of those you deem worthy of such punishment.

[MrSlayer]

47. Torturing people needlessly and undeservedly is not my bag.

I'm not going to run up and attempt to perform an abacination on you for no reason. I'm just a firm believer in street justice. That's how you settle things where I come from. You don't call the cops or whatever, you handle it yourself. Would I enjoy seeing someone suffer who deserved it? Yes. Since the question is directed at me personally, I would be the arbiter of who deserves it.

[DustMolecule]

62. Wow

n/t

[spanone]

20. How could anyone? What is wrong with people? Genetic flaw?

[AlienGirl]

32. It's actually normal

Psychologists have discovered that most people will torture other people if they believe a legitimate authority figure is telling them to do so. Look up Milgram's experiments and the Stanford Prison Experiment for examples.

The human psyche is always only a stone's throw from brutality.

Tucker

[jmags]

71. Thank you for bringing that up.

We all can say "I would never do that" while we are far removed from the situation. But it is in the human pysche to follow orders, even if we think they are wrong, if the authority figure is credible.

You all should google the Milgram and Stanford experiments...they are a very chilling look into how easily the human mind can be convinced into doing something it otherwise wouldn't due to satisfy authority.

[drfemoe]

105. 40% refused to continue after the

"subject" demanded to be released.

60% is still a chilling percentage. People like to be in roles of authority (even if they are relying on someone else's *authority* for thier's). But, still, 40% DID NOT follow through to the conclusion.

http://designweb.otago.ac.nz/grant/psyc/OBEDIANCE.HTML

[ScreamingMeemie]

21. I could not. But then I could not join the military and kill people either

But then, I cannot kill a deer or any other living thing. I know this because MrGrumpy took my hunting once. :hi:

[raysr]

24. Randi Rhodes

said today that Bush issued an executive order, she had the number of it, that declared Iraq a "Lawless Country". Thereby making all crimes by civilians there non-punishable.

[Martin Eden]

25. It's a slippery slope

Mt first thought is yes -- if torture was a cut-and-dried necessity to save lives (such as extracting information to prevent an imminent terrorist attack) -- then I believe I could and would do it.

But how often is something cut and dried? Is it enough for your superiors to tell you the prisoner is a terrorist who has such vital information? What about a policy for abusing all prisoners to break them down because some of them might have useful information?

How long until the exercise of routine brutality dehumanizes not only your victims, but yourself as well? Are the grinning Americans in those photos inherently sadistic, or are they normal people whose character and judgement have been corrupted by the abnormal demands placed upon them?

My guess is that the environment of abuse is systematic, and could not have taken place without being fostered by superior officers; are they inferior human beings?

[Lavalamp]

26. Anyone who answers

yes or no is full of it IMO. (unless it actually happened before)

No one can know how they will respond until the actual situation happens. It reminds me of 1984. Winston was SO damn sure he wouldn't betry Julia under torture. How wrong he was.

And yes, I am aware being told to do something and being coerced through tortue to do something are two different things, but it is not exactly as if the military encourages questioning of orders. You would be under immense pressure, and I do believe disobeying orders is grounds for being shot on the spot by your CO in a combat zone.

Far easier said than done.

[newyorican]

34. The key words in the question are...

"under orders" and once again, the military teaches one to obey all lawful orders. Issuing an unlawful order in a combat zone is most dangerous to the issuer, as the logical outcome of deciding to disobey that order is to ventilate the wannbe war criminal. I would hesistate only as long as it took me to find the trigger.

[Lavalamp]

36. It doesn't matter

you still don't know for sure how you would respond.

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and talk about how high and mighty you would be in a situation. It's quite different to actually BE high and mighty in a situation.

[newyorican]

39. How open-minded...

"It doesn't matter"

Sorry to inform you that I know a great deal more about myself than you probably ever will. That matters. Speak for yourself and your own responses.

FWIW, I have disobeyed orders that I considered unlawful (outside of combat) and we were encouraged to do so. Ever hear of Nuremburg? The "Just following orders" excuse didn't save one Nazi. They all hung.

[Lavalamp]

43. Look who's talking

that's a nice assumption that I believe just following orders is an excuse.

The fact of the matter is I originally stated people who have NOT been in such a situation (you claim you have, so my statement didn't apply to you) can't say they would never do this. I don't care how well you THINK you know your self. Go take a psyc class and you'll figure this out pretty fast.

I bet if you asked these soldiers before they went to Iraq if they would do this they would tell you they were pretty sure they would NOT. Guess they would have been wrong, eh?

[newyorican]

50. 4 points

1) I made no assumptions as to what you believe, I simply brought up the topic of Nuremberg to buttress my argument.

2) I made no assertion on how well I thought of myself , only that I knew myself better than you probably ever will.

3) There is not a "psyc" class that teaches mind reading to my knowledge.

4) I would not make that bet about anyone I didn't personally know. Critical thinking skills are not always a given.

[AlienGirl]

27. Statistically speaking, more likely yes than no

I want to believe I am so much different from "them."

But I've studied psychology, I've studied sociology, and I've studied history. I know about Stanford and Milgram; I know that everyone, no matter how "good," has a breaking point. Given enough sleep deprivation, the right combination of stimulant drugs used to increase alertness and reduce the need for sleep in the battlefield, superior officers telling me I can be shot if I don't go along, and a psyche already cracked and re-worked into a military mold by training--who knows what I might do? Sadly, human weaknesses apply to everyone, regardless of political affiliation.

Tucker

[Pithlet]

41. Good post.

My first thought was "No way!". But, you bring up very good points. I think and hope that being aware of those human weaknesses might help to resist them, if that situation ever arises.

[bobbieinok]

125. I suspect thinking abt under what conds you might do it would help you

resist if put in the situation

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

28. I couldn't

I'm not one to blindly follow orders (just ask my husband!) I'd never make it in the military because I couldn't carry out an illegal or immoral order. Good thing I'm over 34!

[Jane Austin]

30. I'd rather die myself.

n/t

[MuseRider]

31. Never.

Not ever. I can't imagine a circumstance that could ever cause me to do anything remotely like that.

[seabeyond]

33. ah, i cannot kill a fly

at 12 years old i got in a fight and hit a girl, hated it, only time. and only one time have i purposely been mean to a person and felt shame, so not in my character. i also understand psychology and the way the brain works with conditioning. probably at my age there isn't the possibility or not nearly as easy for corruption of my basic being, but then one of them was a 20 year old. i can see it. doesn't mean they dont get punished for it. some got a pleasure and more into it, others just stood back i don't know

i wonder the same in the mob mentality. a safe little thing to see about ourselves. how many here on the board lets say, the smoking thread

how many were able to go into mob mentality and attack in a hurtful way the smoker, having dehumanized the smoker as nothing more than filth. so i guess we have the example if a person is susceptible to that type of mob mentality.

interesting

[davekriss]

35. Could I? No, not under any circumstances (n/t)

[Zorra]

37. No.

I would never be in the military unless our country was invaded, because I only trust my own judgement and hold myself responsible for my own actions, and don't take kindly to people that try to tell me what to do.

If someone ordered me to torture someone I'd tell them to KMA.

[davsand]

44. I'd like to think I wouldn't torture anyone.

I flatter myself that I could not do that to another living thing--but I've never been in the situation, and hope never to be.

Having said that, however, I was just talking to kevsand about this earlier today. I remember hearing that the soldiers claimed not to be familiar with the Geneva Convention, and they claim they were ordered to behave that way. Did they never hear it discussed in context of other wars and the treatment of prisoners? Did they go to school???? Did NONE of them ever even watch a war film on TV?

I'm not being snarky here, I'm just wondering how anyone could possibly get to the age of majority and NOT know it is wrong to torture defenseless people, prisoners of war, or captives...


Laura

[Avalux]

45. NO

It's a moral issue and I would disobey a direct order without hesistation.

[jbm]

46. weird things happen in the military...

I've been reading these types of posts for a few days now,and I've written this post a few times,but always deleted it. I guess if it pops up on the screen this time then I opted for 'submit'.


When I was in basic training there was a girl in my platoon who was very athletic. We were on a run one day and she dropped out. The drill sergeant started yelling at her to get back in formation,and when she didn't,he stopped the run. First he told a couple of people to drag her along with us,but they couldn't keep up and the girl collapsed on the ground. Next he went over and screamed at her to get up,but she didn't. He had us form a circle around her,with her and him in the center while he yelled at her to get up. I knew how athletic she was,and I was thinking something must be wrong,but I talked myself out of it for awhile..but then she had turned gray,and I KNEW something was wrong. There was a girl in the platoon with some medical experience,and I heard her say"she's having a heart attack" and she started to go towards her,but the drill sergeant yelled at her to get back in line,so she did.

The girl having the heart attack was crying now,and begging for help. I remember she hit her fist on the pavement and let out the awfullest scream. I started to step towards her then,but the drill sergeants head turned my way..I don't even know that he was looking at me..but it was enough and I stepped back in line. The girl lost control of her bowels and her bladder,and there was another soul wrenching sound from her that I can't actually classify.

Finally another drill sergeant appeared,I'm not sure why or from where,and she actually took some action,but it was to late ..the girl had lost consciousness and by the time the ambulance arrived she was dead. I had stood there for nearly 30 minutes knowing full well she was dying..we all did. She begged us for help and we did nothing. Think of me what you will. It's not o.k. that I did that,but I did.


I think we haven't progressed to a point yet where we always have rational reactions to authority,and we have to accept that this phenomena exists before we can find ways to compensate for it. I would never ever ever have believed that I would stand idly by and allow another human to die a miserable death,not ever....but I did. Maybe some of you are stronger then I,and the other 20 or so people that stood there with me,but I think the ability to do something like that is a part of us. I really hope it's not a part of me any longer,but I can't know.

[bhunt70]

60. fuck. I sympathize.

All I can say is that I can see that your response is probably the most "human" response I have seen regarding this. It's not a black or white issue, people do strange things in strange times, actions can always be perceived one way or the other but only the person it pertains too can truly understand what exactly happened at that time.

On a much smaller scale, I was on the subway one day and this lady had an epileptic attack, slumped down in between me and two other guys and passed out. We looked at each other, paused for what seemed to be a long time although it was only about 15 seconds. The subway came to a halt at the next stop, the lady got up, looked at the three of us like "what the fuck good are you?". She exited the train and I had another stop to go, I've always felt bad I never even made a move to check if she was ok, to help her up , I was dumbstruck. If you would have asked me thirty minutes before what I would do in a situation like that I would have told you unequivocably that I would have helped this lady. I was a life guard at the time and had all the training to help people in distress...but when it happened I froze. I think about it every now and then ...the lack of action.

Sometimes it's easy to know what is right but hard to do it.

[jbm]

70. Thanks Bhunt...

I think when something out of the ordinary happens,our minds just can't process all of that information fast enough. I'm betting that if you ever find yourself in a similiar position,you'll react in a very quick and positive way. I hope that I will also.

If the universe gave us a days notice when it was going to hit us with some twist,life would be much easier. Thanks for your post.:)

[mopaul]

85. not the same thing

awful story for sure, but we are discussing torture. as in, could you, would you. i suspect you could not be a torturer. a torturer must disconnect himself from reality. he inflicts the pain, but doesn't feel it himself. your average person couldn't because of empathy. you feel that other person's pain abstractly. a torturer doesn't.

[drfemoe]

103. The drill Sargent was the torturer

in that scenario. I assume he avoided any culpability? He not only tortured and killed the woman, he tortured the rest of you by restraining you. You were another victim of torture. Not the perpetrator.

[corporatewhore]

48. following orders is such a fucking cop out

[SnohoDem]

49. No,

at least I hope not. I never was good at taking orders. Maybe I could kill someone if I was scared enough or mad enough.

[mopaul]

87. i could kill someone fairly easy

i can see plenty of reasons why i might kill someone, but never torture them. we put animals out of their misery, but we inflict misery on our own kind.

[drfemoe]

112. That's the thing that has been brought up

in these discussions. In order to inflict torture, there is systematic *training* to de-humanize the *other*. Since I don't believe I could ever be convinced that other HUMAN BEINGS are not HUMAN (even the criminal in chief), I am confident I couldn't carry out atrocities.

[Hemprus]

51. No!

I'd be one of thse outcasted people who said something in there defense and ended up with my butt kicked.

[BiggJawn]

52. Not "under orders" I couldn't.

However, hurt my daughter and you will beg for death....

[Hekate]

53. We all believe we couldn't or wouldn't, but studies have been done

Psychological studies have shown that it is far easier to bring about than any of us imagine.

Hekate

[dawn]

75. I'm sure it is, but I can't.

[mopaul]

88. we all took those psych classes

but my question was framed in a military sense. sarge tells you to go into room 1A and torture prisoner 34t95ss3. right then and there, i'd be in the brig and drummed out dishonorably for refusing orders.

[mouse7]

57. No way

There's times when being a stubborn S.O.B. comes in handy. This is one. Jail me. Shoot me. It wouldn't matter. There's nothing they could do to make me participate in that outrage.

[KC]

58. No way

KC

[Skittles]

61. I can't even kill a bug

I scoop them up in jars and toss them outside.

[AlienGirl]

63. So do, I, but again, statistics....

Psychology tells us that inside even the gentlest of us is the capacity to commit atrocities.

It is better to be aware of this capacity, for by denying that it exists, we may not see when the bonds that hold it in check begin to loosen.

Tucker

[Skittles]

111. I understand the capacity exists

but I would harm myself before I harmed others

[progressivebydesign]

67. I call it the "Spider Relocation Program" in my house! N/T

[Skittles]

110. yeah

I like spiders but not in my apartment!!!

[leftofthedial]

64. there are a handful of people I would torture

without orders

Other than them, no.

torture is ineffective and inhumane.

[progressivebydesign]

65. No. I can prove it.

I just read that in order to rid my garden of tent caterpillars, one should squeeze a few of them to death in front of the other caterpillars, and place them back with the live ones. Because they hate to see another caterpillar die, and they fear death.. it's supposed to work. Can I do that? NOPE!!! I even apologize to a mosquito that I have to smack.. (it's either him or me, and I'm allergic!). So.. NO I could not harm someone or something. I was threatened with suspension for refusing to dissect a frog in 7th grade, back before parents filed lawsuits over it.

And truly.. does any of us believe that those people who were just following orders, as they are claiming, would do so with such glee and with photos and thumbs up? I'm sure the commands were there.. but the glee and the photo ops were sick, and optional.

[Romberry]

73. An order to torture...

...is an unlawful order and by the UCMJ *must be* disobeyed. I most certainly would disobey such an order except perhaps in the most extreme (read "TV and movie plot") circrumstances where it was known beyond any doubt that the person being interrogated had the code, the key or the information required to prevent a major loss of life due to something like a bomb or chemical attack. Mere suspicion is not enough. Even then I don't condone torture and would expect to be prosecuted for it. We don't maintain civilization by regressing to brutality.

[dawn]

74. No. I couldn't do it. .

[Lochinvar]

76. Considers.

If I were convinced that these, my enemies, were less than human, and that they had necessary information, and that they and theirs were guilty of the torture of my own people-- now, we are discussing a military situation-- then I wouldn't need orders.

That's my gut instinct. I would have to let that ride. In a thoughtful, considered way, from my cozy place behind my computer desk, I can say the thought sickens me. But these guys were probably thinking of that Fallujah video. In light of which, I am of the opinion-- first instinct: shoot the dog.

"If you haven't been there..."

[Bridget Burke]

77. The events in the photos happened long before Fallujah...

Would you enjoy it as much as the torturers?

[Kenneth ken]

78. I don't know

regardless of the "under orders" aspect. There have been times and people in my life I have fantasized torturing. I can think up some pretty gruesome tortures.

But I can barely stand to watch films that include torture, and I know it's not real. The scene in Scarface with the chainsaw for instance.

So, on the one hand, I know I can fantasize and enjoy the thought of it, but the visuals creep me out, even at mild levels.

So, best guess, I could probably start to torture someone, but would quickly become nauseated and unable to continue.

That's for physical torture.

Humiliation as torture. Even harder to say for certain. Probably the same result, though. I could start, but not continue.

[drfemoe]

113. I liked the movie ..

"Casino" .. but when the beatings and torture scenes come on, I have to look away. I've watched it several times, and never seen the ending where Joe Pesci and his brother are "whacked".

[Kenneth ken]

123. yep

I saw that film once. That's another scene I can't watch. Both films are good, but the excessive violence puts me off seeing them more than once. I try to think of that as a good sign that I have compassion and humanity.

[rpannier]

79. probably not...

but, i've learned never to say never about anything. if by torturing the guy i would save my whole family...i probably would. i'd hate myself later, but i could justify it to myself -- i think.

[wickerwoman]

80. No. I don't have the imagination or the taste for it.

My first two years of college I was on the drumline. They had a tradition of hazing freshmen by making them stand in the shower with their clothes on and throwing food at them. Some of the boys were hit with mallets and sticks. I put up with it when it was my turn but the next year, I couldn't do it. I left and spent the night at my uncle's house.

If I was really brave, I suppose I would have tried to stop it. I think we can draw a distinction between those who gleefully participate, those who reluctantly participate, those who look away and those who try to stop the abuse. I can't see myself consciously
moving beyond passive complicity under any circumstances, psychological test be damned.

[Nihil]

81. Not under "orders" but can't rule it out

I would not place myself in the position where someone could give me
such an order so, in that sense, the answer is "no".

On the other hand, I know that there *are* things that matter more to
me than the well-being, health or even life of a stranger. As a result,
I believe that there could be circumstances where I *would* torture a
person.

I know that I couldn't be the same as the guards in Iraq but that
wasn't the question in the original post.

I would have no problem killing a person who was a threat to my family
(i.e., self-defence) and it is only a small step beyond that to torture
that person if I genuinely believed that it might protect my family to
an even greater extent. I would not gain any pleasure from such an
action (either sexual or power-related) - indeed, I *might* not be able
to torture someone even under the limited circumstances above - but I
cannot say that I would simply walk away.

Reading this again during preview, it is not very pleasant to see
such "honest" words as I feel that it reveals a less than savoury
aspect to my nature, one I would prefer did not exist (much less
become known) but there comes a point where "pretending" or "wishing"
is not enough - it merely hides the unpalatable truths rather than
acknowledging them (and hopefully overcoming them).

Nihil

[Spentastic]

82. Probably

But there are so many "ifs" to render the question almost moot.

I'd never join the army voluntarily

I'd seek CO status before fighting

I'd be a medic if all else failed

etc. etc. etc.

But in some circumstances as much as I'd like to give a categorical "no" I'd have to say "probably".

[Piperay]

83. I don't believe I would but

I wouldn't want to assume that either. I have never been in that kind of circumstance so it would be arrogant to say that I never would just like I couldn't say that if a loved one was murdered I would still be against the death penalty. One can only hope and I would hope that I would have the strength to never stoop to that level.

[doni_georgia]

84. No I wouldn't, and I would report the CO who gave the orders

My dad always said I wouldn't last 10 minutes in the military, because I wouldn't follow any orders I disagreed with.

[Earth_First]

86. Absolutely not!

I am so glad that I am clear of being a situation where that situation could have presented itsself...

[psychopomp]

89. NObody is ordering me to do jack SHIT

n/t

[devinsgram]

90. Absolutely not,

Why, because I know that whatever actions I take against another human being will come back to me ten times worse. It always does. Such a shame that most of the human race hasn't figured that out yet.

[Hubert Flottz]

91. No because Gawd will get you for that!

The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you!!!!"

GOPers Gold Stealing Rule: Do unto others as soon as they turn their backs!

[mopaul]

93. do unto others...i like that......who said that?

sounds like my kinda guy. i live by that rule

[Hubert Flottz]

98. I think it was some trouble making Nay-Sayer who got busted....

by the circa 33ad right wing for spreading anti-war rumors against the gubmint! Good thing they had the death penalty back then, right?

[CWebster]

92. This is what war is all about...

It turns decent human beings into monsters.

The heart of darkness--the horror.

Propaganda is the sales pitch that sells militarism as some sort of heroic liberation---Even Kerry is banking on the slobbering over the uniform.

[mopaul]

94. the old death drive

let's go kill those people over there in terrorland. let's pile the children's arms high, and the p.o.w.'s too.

nationalism is a sickness that kills

[moonshadow2020]

95. The Misadventures of 3 Iraqi Farmers

Apache Helicopter Attack Video or The Misadventures of 3 Iraqi Farmers "He's Wounded...Hit Him!"
The "Pop-Up" Video version by Chris King Pop Icon A dark sardonic look at disturbing war footage. A MUST SEE!
Psychedelic Furs "HEAVEN"
http://www.newsgateway.ca/pop_up_apache_video.htm
Turn Up Your Speakers!

[Hubert Flottz]

97. Wow!

Your tax dollars winning hearts and minds!

The Terra-ists must have been growing brocalli Poppy Bush HATES the stuff! Do you think Bush's talk on the Arab networks will fix that too?

[drfemoe]

116. Goddess Help Us NOW!!! ........... n/t

[SarahB]

99. No, I have to look at myself in the mirror for the rest of my life

Even if my life were cut short someone because I made the moral choice, at least I could die with a clear conscience. I'm first a human being. Nationalism is a divisive method of control on the masses.

[drfemoe]

101. No ..

I can hardly force myself to squish a spider.

I COULD hand someone who masterminded an illegal war a rifle and send them to the front lines, however.
That represents allowing someone to experience the consequences of their own actions. No problem with that concept.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

102. no not under any circumstances would i nor could i

[mopaul]

104. would you torture in iraq? would you, could you, out in back?

i could not torture even an ant, i could not torture, end of rant

[ElsewheresDaughter]

107. oh no oh no.....

:loveya:

[Vladimir]

106. Who knows what beasts lurk

within us? I hope to god I never have to find out the answer to your question for myself.

[RichardRay]

108. Unless you've been there and done that

you simply have no idea what you'd do. You may believe you do, you may have strong feelings about what you'd like to do. You simply don't know.

Other opinions are, of course, legitimate and worthy, but they're baseless. Period.

[mopaul]

109. if i thought you had my wife hostage, i still would not torture you

although i might consider it. i see your point. but if sargeant slaughter commanded me to torture a prisoner of war, which is what we are talking about here, i would not do it.

[Piperay]

122. I have to agree

I'm sure that if a couple of years ago those soldiers in the pictures had been asked if they would ever participate in something like that everyone of them would have said NO. You can't know until you are in that situation whether darkness lurks in your soul or not.

[lapislzi]

114. There is a 2 in 3 chance that I probably would

Although I would hope that I would be the 1, chances are I wouldn't be. I don't like to think about that, and I hope I am never in that situation.

Self knowledge is a tool, and knowing what I am capable of may allow my better nature to prevail. If I were a praying person, I would pray for that.

[mopaul]

115. do we have to actually teach our soldiers human decency?

the parents should have done that already. soldiers are people just like the rest of us. again i say, no one could make me torture.

if i want to torture someone on my own, that's a different story, but no one will MAKE me torture. not even with torture

[lapislzi]

119. Nobody MADE them do anything

that's the scary part. It's scary to realize how quickly your humanity evaporates.

Remember Lord of the Flies? Did anybody MAKE those boys do what they did?

And who will rescue the rescuers?

[drfemoe]

117. Please do remember ..

that at least ONE soldier came forward with this story. He didn't step in to stop it at the time, but he DID take action ..

<snip>
Documents from an April 2 military court hearing in Iraq for Sergeant Frederick provide new details about the abuse. The documents show that Specialist Matthew Carl Wisdom, of the 372nd Military Police Company at Abu Ghraib, appeared in the hearing and described some of the acts of abuse he saw.

"I went down to Tier 1 (the cellblock where much of the abuse is said to have occurred) and when I looked down the corridor, I saw two naked detainees, <snip> he is quoted as saying. "I thought I should just get out of there. I didn't think it was right, as it seemed like the wrong thing to do. I saw Staff Sergeant Frederick walking towards me, and he said, `Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.' "

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/international/middleeast/03ABUS.html?pagewanted=2

[mopaul]

118. he should get the medal of honor, but will get death threats instead

i'm sure. i see the whistleblower as a hero

[bhunt70]

121. Anyone know about the Stanford Prison Experiment?

[dsc]

126. I would love to say no

I would never do it. But I honestly can't say I wouldn't without being in the same situation. I remember once that I had some friends over and we were discussing my across the street neighbor who was gay. We decided to throw tomatoes at his house. I knew better than to do that but did it anyway. I wanted to fit in. I was afraid people would know about me. So I did it. That isn't torture but it was wrong. Honestly we can't know what we would do until we are there.

[RapidCreek]

127. I could.

Put Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Andrew Card, Paul Woflowitz, Condoleeza Rice, Colon Powell, Sean Hannity, Bill Orielly, Rush Limpdick, Matt Drudge, Brit Hume etc. etc. in a room and hand me a broomstick..their assholes would be the size of the Lincoln Tunnel when I got done. And I'd finish off our three days of fun and games with this remark. "Hey wasn't that great? Kinda brings back ones cherished memories of college hazing don't it folks?"

RC

[Angelus]

128. I would...

but only if something happened to my loved ones and I needed information on who did it/why/etc. and the person wasn't answering me.

I wouldn't torture innocent people...hell, I wouldn't torture anyone unless they did something to me personally.

[Cleita]

129. First, let me say that I'm not sure I would speak up, depending

on the situation. I mean is there a superior officer you can complain to or is he part of the problem? If that is the case, I would do just what someone did and get together documentation that I could leak to the media, pictures etc..

Secondly, doesn't the "I vas chust followving orders" ring a bell?

[West Coast Democrat]

130. The issue is how much these soldiers have been taught to hate...

the Iraqi people, in general...so much that they could bring themselves to do this. You would have to have a lot of hatred eating away at your insides to actually feel good, and smile... and take photos of the torture you are "ordered" to commit.

[Valerie5555]

131. Maybe only by playing "Tie A Yellow Ribbon" over and over again

"GAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I bet would be the reaction of some people :evilgrin:

[Dead_Parrot]

135. Yes.

At least, if I'd been stuck in a desert for a year. There are some very dark corners in my mind, and I don't like what's in them.

Fortunatley, I work in IT which has scant opportunity for my personal demons to run riot. The closest I get is inflicting Windows XP on someone...