this prisoner abuse scandal is just EXPLODING

[mopaul]

it's all over everywhere. it's expanding like it's own universe, in every direction, senators calling for hearings, committees holding meetings, lots of important looking men saying, 'harumph' and generals saying, 'we'll get to the bottom of this'.

i'm just amazed at the way the story keeps growing larger and careening out of control. i take no joy in it though, i never gloat at small advances for our cause, or trouble for bush in the polls, i can't take joy in knowing what effect this will have on our reputation in the eyes of the world.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nashyra]

There was professor on CNN this am

basically talking about ultimately that it is the *'s responsiblity. Loved it he was on for longer than a snippet. I was just getting coffee so did not hear his website but it has something to do about a study done 30 years ago.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

18. Saw that too! THAT was great. Here's a link...

http://www.zimbardo.com/zimbardo.html

[Hubert Flottz]

46. The man was exactly right It is Bush's baby!

It will keep Mushrooming! Bush is the CinC and he wanted everyone on earth to know it! Now let him for once take the responsibility! Anything less marks him as the coward we all knew he was! This is going to keep on biting the War President on the ass, as I should! It was Bush and Cheney's lies that set this up to begin with! It bought them the Senate in 2002! I wonder now if Karl still thinks winning the Senate seats in 2002 was worth it? Bush and Cheney beat the war drums for two years to sell this and don't EVER forget that!

BUSH KNEW this was going on in IRAQ IMO! I'll bet he even thought it was funny for a while till it blew up in his face! The WORLD is judging Goerge W Bush right now over this! He can run but he can't hide forever! I hate what these idiots did in Iraq, but I LOVE what's happening to BUSHCO!

[redqueen]

3. So if I beat my kid

I can just point to someone that murdered theirs and say 'hey, doesn't compare'?

:eyes:

[DenverDem]

4. Your point being?

Iraqi torture doesn't compare to Pearl's execution or what?

[Ripley]

5. So we're better because at least...

WE HAVEN'T MURDERED THEM YET? Nice to know some people have lowered their standards and values and boundaries of decency and following laws, that unless our soldiers are videotaped actually shooting someone in the head or slicing their throat it's okay. It's a prank. It's like a boy scout hazing. It's a joke.

Where there is smoke, there is fire. I'll bet you a donut that it will come out that US soldiers have executed prisoners.

[Walt Starr]

12. Problem is, we have murdered at least one

and probably more.

[Ripley]

21. Yes it is a problem

Yet there is someone always being an apologist for these abuses.

Why is DU filled with so many people who claim to be liberals yet believe it is okay for us to torture any Iraqi we imprison, because after all a Jewish American reporter was killed by some Arab. WTF does Pearle have to do with the Iraqi men and women being held in prison in Baghdad?

And why is his life more valuable?

[Malva Zebrina]

33. because perhaps the realization that barbarism exists to justify

the murders of people who are on the lands that rightly belong to Israel, because the god gave it to them?

I received a letter from a friend of mine a few days ago.

It was a villification of Theresa Heinz--and was really quite nasty and out of context to any issue in the Kerry campaign.

It ended with--"never forget"

I did forget my friends of twenty years and wrote back a searing critique of the letter as well as the policies of Bush as well as the fact that I observe, that not one Israeli life , or solider, has been sacrificed, but more than 700 American lives have been sacrificed in order to allow Israel to be safer in the ME

Personally, I think that is unforgiveable. If Israel wanted SAddam out so that they could have thier pipeline and their water line from Iraq, then they could have participated.

AS it was, according to my observation, Israel stood back and waited for the US to sacrifice it's young people, to grab what Iraq has.

An article today in Salon, confirms the role of the PNAC and it's ties to Sharon and Israel. It confirms what Israel wanted and what Israel gained from this slaughter--this slaughter based on lies on the part of a stupid and ignorant man--a gullible man who followed the advice of a Wolfowitz, a Perle, a Cheney, a Feith and the rest of them dedicated to securing Israel's place in the ME and it's "return to biblical boundaries"

It is too bad that so many were murdered--so many were slaughtered, so many believed, and wanted to believe, and convinced stupid others they were right, that invading Iraq on lies, was a wonderful pre-emptive, Sharon-like policy that would succeed.

Well, it did suceed to a certain extent, did it not?

How much and how many billions have been made in this reconstruction? By the buddies of George Bush and most likely anyone who was heavily invested in Halliburton?

It makes sense--the slaughter of the people; the children, the babies, the suffering of all, matter not a scintilla when what really matters to those in power, is the continuation of that power.

The little guyu, the paeon, the slave, the military volunteer, who needed a college education and in whose own country, jhe could not afford one UNLESS he agreed to be the pawn of a fascist man-- are the exploited. They are not rich CEO's making millions, they are ordinary, people--wanting to make a living, or to better themself and to raise their cildren with noble values

Those values have gone beneath the bridge and deep sixed by Bush

How can anyone believe that teaching their children that lying is wrong, actually think their children will get somewhere in life like Bush did.

What an example of devious success.

Bush will go on--he will not be prosecuted for anyh of his lies and any of his crimes

and there he is--an example by which we can all teach our kids

It Is OK to lie, in order to murder people who have something you want. It is OK kids.

You just go right ahead and bully everyone around you and threaten them with harm if they do not agree with you.

Your Christianity will absorb that--never fear--it is OK with god--just ask him and you will get back a positiuve message from the sky god that tells you to kill the Arabs and start the Armageddon

[Guy_Montag]

39. "Where there's smoke there's fire"

Should never be used as a justification for any argument. I've heard it a lot these past few days in relation to the photos of the British soldiers, amongst other things. It's used both by the right & the left in different situations, but it makes me cringe whenever I hear it.

The natural progression of it is that anyone who ends up in court is guilty "maybe not of that, but there's no smoke without fire".

Sometimes people are set up, sometimes people are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Ripley]

44. What are you talking about?

Who was in the wrong place at the wrong time? The guys being sodomized with light sticks in that prison, or the "poor, untrained" soldiers smiling into the camera next to Iraqi men piled high with nude butts facing the camera?

Okay, I'll grant you I shouldn't use a worn out cliche, and I don't normally. But I'm sick of this "few bad apples" cliche. Are you even paying attention to the length and depth of this problem? It has been known about for a year. It has been documented by Amnesty International. There are former prisoners alleging abuses all over the place. This involves American and British troops. What about the British men released from Gitmo who have claims? Sounds like it is more than "a few bad apples" but okay, I'll refrain from saying there is fire there. Just horrible abuses of International Laws of treatment of prisoners of war.

[displacedtexan]

7. Yes, it compares.

Any one instance of torture or execution is no worse than another.

13. It doesn't matter if it compares

If the treatment of Pearl justifies the treatment of the Iraqi's then it would be ok for the Israelis to gas Germans since the Germans gassed Jews.

[kayell]

14. Are you at all aware

that the people who murdered Pearl had nothing whatsoever to do with people in Iraq?

[Brotherjohn]

28. THANK YOU! (n/t)

[Goldmund]

And your point is...

???

[Torgo4]

24. The Difference...!

A high school football coach once explained to a roomful of study hall students, when one of us pointed out another school's deficiencies:

You know the difference between a winner and a loser?

---The winner says: "I've got to try harder!"
---The loser says: "There's somebody worse!"

[redqueen]

41. Oh, I like that.

Thanks for posting it!

[rockymountaindem]

30. Those Aztlan people are totally messed up.

I've seen their site before. They write some of the most anti-Semetic screed I've ever seen.

[0007]

32. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with Pearl

We do know of one Iraqi death from junior's torture chambers that must have been just as horrendous as Mr. Pearl's death.
And yes it does compare with Mr. Pearl. So why do you think Pearl is more important than an Iraqi?

BTW, I'm a white American citizen, that wears a Star of David necklace.

[NNN0LHI]

45. Are you suggesting that it was Iraqis who did that to Pearl, buddy22600?

Just curious about this?

Don

[frylock]

48. iraqis were not responsible for pearl's death..

not exactly sure what your point is, but just to let you know, neither Saddam nor Iraq had anything to do with 911 either. You should keep yourself better informed.

[gulfcoastliberal]

2. Couldn't Hand em Better Propaganda than This

Pentagon tried to keep a lid on it and did for 6 months. The genie's out of the bottle now, big time. The British pictures are even worse, if real.

[opihimoimoi]

6. The Captain of the Ship takes the HIT of what goes down in the

Engine Room.

[NewJeffCT]

47. please - Bush has never taken any blame in his life...

He, and the rest of his cabal, have perfected passing the buck, raising it to an art form. I'm sure some in the Fright Wing Echo Chamber area already blaming the abuse on Clinton.

[xultar]

8. While this is boiling, the Plame affair and the LIES to 9/11 commission

are going cold,
along with the lies regarding WMD
the Draft
the energy task force
the strengthening of the patriot act
North Korea
Afghanistan
UBL

and the list goes on...

[Terry_M]

15. The one I'm most shocked about is:

The 700 million $ diverted to Iraq war preparations before any money was approved for Iraq... If the president is really guilty of approving the transfer of money without permission from congress, he violated the constitution, and could probably be easily impeached... But I haven't heard anyone talking about this after it was briefly mentioned a few weeks back.

[redqueen]

16. Sadly, you're exactly right

:(

[Brotherjohn]

19. I disagree. It is another nail in the coffin.

As I say below, I take no joy in this horrible development at all. But the excessive news coverage it is getting is NOT good for the Bush administration. It puts another bad face on the occupation.

The 9-11 Commission has had it's day in the press, and doubts about the Bush administration were raised in more minds as a result. That may be where it ends, but the damage has been done.

Talk of a draft is just ratcheting up, and doubts about the Bush administration's policies will be raised in more minds as a result.

The Iraq/WMD/Intelligence Commission will meet (hopefully in summer) and doubts about the administration's words and actions leading up to the war will be raised in more people's minds. The lies regarding WMDs WILL be a major campaign issue.

The SCOTUS will rule on the Energy Task Force (although I'm not optimistic on this one), and the results will have their day in the media.

Meanwhile, this revelation of torture chambers couldn't come at a worse time for the occupation. It is horrible, horrible, horrible... but it is good that it is coming to light. It reveals so much about the faults of what we are doing.

One thing at a time. It's better than the Wacko Jacko on the news 24-7.

[leetrisck]

9. "Wanted, Dead or Alive" "Smoke Em Out"

What in the hell do we expect when you have a nut case in selected position behaving like that - troops just following orders. I swear -there is no excuse for any of this but that's exactly what the soldier's should say - "bush told us to do it"

[Brotherjohn]

10. I take no joy in it (another horrible example of a wrong-headed war), but

... based on the news it's generating, this may end up doing more damage to the Bush administration than all the books combined.

It's sad that things have to get this bad (hundreds of Americans dead and getting worse, torture chambers operated by us, NOT Saddam), before people start to wake up.

[mopaul]

11. hell the whole population are prisoners

beyond the prison walls in baghdad out in the streets, the treatment is just as bad or worse. out there on the streets, women and babies are blown to bits as easily as old people. we are currently treating the whole nation as a prison, with our military playing guard. what's going on behind prison walls is a microcosm of what's going on in the nations of afghanistan and iraq

[jokerman93]

23. Bingo Mopaul!

I think the reason there was no plan for after the invasion was because they thought it was going to be a slam dunk pacifying the population and controlling the media here in the states, while they plundered the country and set up shop for their imperial domination of the ME.

All that talk about Democracy and freedom for the Iraqis came later if anyone recalls.

Now, the country has become a prison camp, as you said. This has been my feeling for sometime. I do tend toward hyperbole, but I cannot imagine a hyperbole that would inflate the horror of what Bush, in our name, has unleashed. I fear America will not recover from this in any meaningful way.

[LMG]

31. smoke um out

this goes to the very top with all their cowboy talk
smoke um out cut off the head and the rest will be easy
will get um dead or alive and the people cheer
the band plays and now its like a few bad apples
I think its a whole orchard full

[Neecy]

17. yep, another lie exposed

Last year, we invaded Iraq to disarm Saddam. Lie.

This year, we invaded Iraq to bring democracy to the people of Iraq and to free them from torture chambers. These photos also expose this lie.

What's left? The same reason we all knew to begin with - we invaded to have a military stronghold in the ME, and to loot and plunder.

This is a huge story precisely because it's the last fig leaf to drop.

[Brotherjohn]

20. GOOD POINT. We're left hanging onto "liberation". This blows that to hell.

[drfemoe]

50. New Lie: Saving America

NILES, Mich. — Four years ago, President George W. Bush said, he never dreamt he would be standing before the country saying we were at war.

On Monday, the president told a gymnasium full of 1,200 supporters, students and legislators at Niles High School in Michigan that his main focus for the next four years is to win the War on Terrorism.
...
“Were we supposed to trust a man with ties to terrorists who funded suiciders into Israel, or defend America? Given the choice, I would save America every time. The world is better off with Saddam Hussein sitting in jail, but we still have a lot of work to do.”
http://www.heraldargus.com/content/story.php?storyid=4442

With a savior like that, who needs a devil?

[glarius]

22. Where's Rumsfeld?...He's always ready with a glib answer to everything!

Since this first broke a couple of days agao, there has been no sight or sound of Rumsfeld....I wonder why??????

[jokerman93]

27. Rumsfeld may not be in charge anymore

The Pentagon has been overseeing a huge cluster-f'ck since the Marines "pulled back" in Falluja. (Actually since day one.)

Fact: the initial pullback was due to insufficient man-power to press forward and secure the city. The Marines are blaming the largely reservist Army for botching things up. There have been a number of significant flip-flops in strategy.

No one is in charge.

(This is a paraphrase of an NPR report I heard this morning in my car on the way to work. The factoid about insufficient troops was reported on NPR on the first week of the April siege. That is, before all the talking head Generals came out saying "We are not withdrawing. We are negotiating a ceasefire". Which is to say, about the time our snipers starting blowing heads off civilians including women and children.)

We are toast. We either pull out now or sink into the quicksand of our hubris. I am deeply ashamed of my country. And outraged at the brute ignorance that has come to characterize the national ethos under this PNAC/Dominionist Bush junta. They have poisoned this country.


THIS IS NOT AMERICA!

[0007]

34. btt

[jokerman93]

38. btt?

What does "btt" mean?

[0007]

51. bounce to top

[Brotherjohn]

25. Exactly the point. This is NOTHING to take joy in. But we sure as hell...

... are glad that people are finding out about this. The only good that may come from it is that it might further hasten the downfall of the administration that is responsible for such atrocities.

Conservatives will rant insane statements like "Liberals are happy about this! They're happy about American soldiers dying!"

This, of course, is utter nonsense. We are sickened beyond belief that such atrocities can occur in our name. We are sickened that so many young Americans have given (and continue to give) their lives over what we know to have been a lie. WE were the ones warning in advance that this war could become much more than the administration was bargaining for (and in fact, that it was unnecessary based on knowledge that WAS available beforehand regarding the LACK of threat from alleged Iraqi WMDs).

We would be poor excuses for human beings if we did not trumpet these horrible facts as loudly as possible in an effort to reverse course and remove the administration we believe is responsible for such horrible occurrences.

[seemslikeadream]

26. I thought so too

and I felt like I was screaming into a pillow

The torture stories are exploding

Edited on Sat May-01-04 06:40 PM by seemslikeadream
30 more!

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14201795&method=full&site ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x523366

[bossfish]

29. But the part that makes the junta look bad...

is not the mistreatment of the prisoners by the soldiers itself, those are soldiers and piling on the soldiers is not the answer.

But rather the implication of the "contractors" who appear that they may been directing our military personnel. "Privatization" of utilities is bad enough, but the military? This is the real story in my opinion.

[jokerman93]

36. so the question is who's prosecuting this war

Certainly the large mass of corporate mercenaries seem to be in a position to pacify the Iraqi people with near impunity. Was it by design?

[Lindsey]

40. How we look in the eyes of the world...

A friend of mine is trying to adopt a baby in Nepal. She was over there was a couple of weeks to sign papers, meet the baby, etc. She's supposed to go back in a few weeks to get the baby, however, there is so much political unrest over there she doesn't know what's going to happen. She's not political at all (but she's definitely a democrat) and is pretty uninformed with what's going on in the world.She just got back on Sunday. She said to me with some surprise: "They REALLY hate Bush and Americans over there. We (another lady that she had hooked up with who's adopting too) couldn't say that we were Americans, we had to say (when asked) that we were from Canada." She acted like they were somewhat fearful. I'm afraid that we are pretty much hated everywhere. Thanks *.

[Zero Gravitas]

35. Its already over

& its been over for a long time. Sure this abuse thing makes the US look bad & further enrages the Iraqis against us, but lets face it Bush's invasion is a dismal failure. It was probably doomed to failure from the beginning, but even if there was a chance to salvage the situation Bush, von Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz of Arabia et. al bungled it a long time ago. For the resistance this abuse issue is just icing the cake.

What is is important is how it resonates here in the US. I'm amazed that STILL so many don't realize what a gargantuan fuck up Bush's Iraq invasion is, maybe they'll start realizing it now.

[gasperc]

37. it's consuming the Pentagon's PR department

it's bad , very very very bad

[seemslikeadream]

42. SENATOR BINGAMAN ENEMY COMBATANTS

ENEMY COMBATANTS -- (Senate - May 03, 2004)


GPO's PDF
---
Mr. BINGAMAN. Mr. President, there are a couple of news events in the last 24 hours or 48 hours that I thought deserve some comment.

Let me first talk a moment about the atrocities and abuse of enemy combatants--prisoners--in Iraq which has been a major concern. Many of my colleagues have commented upon the horrific images that have come out on television and in the papers. I have not seen as yet many comments about the Pentagon's response. That is what I wanted to comment on briefly.

Officials within the Department of Defense have known at least since January that prisoners held as enemy combatants in Iraq have been subject to maltreatment, and to physical and sexual abuse. We know this because in January the Department of Defense relieved the camp commander of her duties and ordered an investigation. The investigation was completed in February. The 54-page report that was issued, as I understand it, contains horrifying details about these abuses.

Yesterday, on the CBS news program ``Face the Nation,'' Bob Schieffer, the host of that program, interviewed General Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Bob Schieffer asked about this report. He said, ``There is a 53-page report that Sy Hersh of the New Yorker has obtained which says that the situation was even worse. How could this have happened? What is going to occur?

The part that I thought was most disturbing was the response by General Myers to the question: ``Why would you not have seen the report?'' The investigation was carried out in December. The report was completed in

February. ``Why would you not have seen report?'' And the response was: ``It is working its way up, up the chain. I will see this report. I am sure it just hasn't come to me yet.''

This is an unacceptable response. If this is a concern of our Department of Defense, if this is a concern of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, how can he state in May that he has not seen the report or demanded to see the report, and that it is, as he understands it, ``working its way up'' and will eventually come to him?

I don't think that is the level of concern we ought to be demonstrating in our Department of Defense for this kind of circumstance. It is not the level of concern the American people would expect of their military commanders for this type of conduct.

I would think if the general believed swift action was required he might have directed those in the command--in his command and, of course, that is everyone in the military--to get that report to him immediately upon completion, and to give him concrete action items they were intending to take to deal with the situation.

Leadership and responsibility flow from the top in our military. We all know that. For the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to handle this matter in this way and indicate that, on May first, he has not seen the report but he assumes it is working its way up through the chain of command, demonstrates to all members of the military that humane treatment of prisoners is not a priority for our military in Iraq.

That is unacceptable. That is unacceptable to this Senator. It is unacceptable, I believe, to the American public. I hope we can get a different reaction from the Pentagon and a more acceptable reaction from the Pentagon to this horrific state of affairs that has come to our attention.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r108:10:./temp/~r108FFnA4E::

[mouse7]

43. It damn well better be. It's American's lowest point in my lifetime.

I was a little young to comprehend almost all the Vietnam War. I got politically aware during Watergate.

I've personally never been so ashamed of this country. My outrage is only getting worse with the neo-cons and their apologists attempting the "frat prank" spin. The lowest point was Jeff Greenfield agreeing with it. Greenfield was on Bobby Kennedy staff, for God's sake. How dare he decend into those depths.

[Unknown Known]

49. Anybody catch Fredrick's (sp?) lawyer on Nightline last night?

He said the "stupidest" (his word) thing the Army did was to bring charges against these soldiers because it is going to open up a huge can of worms that will have enormous political repercussions.

Hmmmmm! I have said from the beginning that this will go right to the top and expose the BFEE connections to the private contractors.