what if the girl in the torture photos was YOUR daughter?

[mopaul]

imagine the shame of 'that girl's' family. we need to admit that any one of our own kids who are currently serving in iraq MIGHT be involved in simalar activity.

i have 3 adult children, the youngest 20, prime draft age. i wonder how i'd feel if my own son had been involved in the torture and humiliation of real live human beings. i wonder if i could live with it. on the one hand, one would feel great pride in one's own son or daughter serving his country, and then great revulsion so see those photos.

she's not a girl, but a grown, 20 year old who ought to have known better manners and morals. i have a daughter, and if it had been my own daughter in that notorious photo, i'd be deeply ashamed of her.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skooooo]

2. ...You know, the soldiers over there...

...didn't just start doing that stuff on their own accord. They might have been told it was alright to do that, that their government wanted them to do that, that the people they were doing it to deserved that, etc. etc. I'm not saying they're not accountable for their actions, but ultimately, you have to know that someone else was behind this and encouraged it. Who knows which soldiers are addicted to cocaine, heroine, opium, or something else.

I'm just saying there's more to these pictures than what you see on the surface, and the people we SHOULD be angry at, even more, are their commanding officers and other people who obviously were behind these actions.

[mzmolly]

4. True. I *think* she was a commanding officer wasn't she?

:shrug:

I am with you in not excusing this though. Like my Mom always said ... "If X jumped off a bridge ... ?"

[skooooo]

6. If X jumped off a bridge....

....people do all kinds of things under stress, and I don't think we know enough about what kind of stress these soldiers are under -- no idea at all.

No, I hold those higher up accountable for this.

[mzmolly]

9. The soldier who *told* was also under stress. And, I realize what

stress does to a person-I've experienced much of it first hand.

I do agree the *climate* was obviously friendly toward such actions. But the invididuals involved are accountable for their own actions as well.

[skooooo]

23. If we don't get the higher-ups..

...nothing will change. This is systemic. I think we agree. I'm much more concerned with what's going on behind what is obvious to all.

[justsam]

13. i can't believe that people

That were brought up in a good homes would do degrading things like those soldiers did.. even in Germany and Japan-ww2, prisoners were shot and slapped around, but i don't remember or have i ever heard of these kinds of acts being done. these soldiers are degenerates that should be locked up like any sex offender..

[skooooo]

28. I honestly don't know what planet you all are from..

...how can you be so shocked?

[Bandit]

74. You can't be serious

Ever heard of Auschwitz? The Japanese were renowned for their mistreatment of US soldiers and especially the Chinese. The Chinese still today despise the Japanese. What makes you think these "soldiers" were brought up in a good household? Ever venture to Frei-Republik and see the hatred demonstrated daily. They don't think these soldiers went far enough. A lot of Americans are bred on violence and a coarseness that is repulsive to the rest of the world. How do you think shows like Rush Limbaugh and Mike Savage get to be so popular. It is with the same mentality that exists in these "soldiers" who love to torture so much.

[mzmolly]

3. I agree. My guess is she's a Republican though?

;)

Sad story - not meaning to make light of it actually.

I honestly can't believe a woman capable of these things personally. I know that may be a sexist statement, but it's so foreign to me to think about?

Perhaps it's because women haven't been subjected to the same psychological pressures being *soldiers in the military* etc. that men have until recently?

Baffling none the less. I would like these soldiers quickly discharged dishonorably to say the least.

[skooooo]

24. I don't think this is anything..

...to be partisan over. The people who took the pictures have been victimized as well by the higher-ups who encouraged and promoted these activities.

[mzmolly]

69. Uhm ... I was joking about the Republican part...

:eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

5. It would indeed by horrifying...

That was actually my first thought when I saw the pictures. Well, I can't really identify my "first" thought, because they were all mashed together. Revulsion, Anger, Horror, Pity, Sadness. Yes, this is but a symbol of some greater tragedy that is surely happening. But this is a PICTURE... this is proof, such proof as too many Americans must wait through horror to see.

She is the antithesis of Jessica Lynch. And, her name should be made known.

[TexasProgresive]

14. Her name is -Pvt. Lynndie England

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1513286

[Misunderestimator]

16. OMG... I hadn't see that

thanks for the link

[hexola]

19. Yeah, when, and by who is she pregnant to?

US soldiers...Iraqi prisoners? Did she get pregnant in theatre?

[Tinoire]

47. Well the male in the pictures. SSG Frederick , is her fiance

I think we can assume...

[scrotim]

50. Hi Tinoire. How do you know these details about this woman? thanks

[Tinoire]

55. Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1517119

Read the links... Lots more there.

The part about her being engaged to him was in the Baltimore Sun:

Lynndie England had found purpose, and love, in the Army. She got engaged last year to a fellow member of the 372nd, Charles Graner, who appears with his arm around her in the newspaper photo.


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,7339983.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

---

Now as far as how do I know so much? I just read a lot and have a nose for this stuff.

I hate lies and liars and nothing infuriates me more than a cover-up and because I smell one here, I try to pay attention to the details.

Peace

[JNelson6563]

7. I would be ashamed of myself

for having raised a child who could commit such cruelty.

Julie

[skooooo]

27. Man, you people just do NOT get it.

The soldiers in these pictures are COGS IN THE MACHINE. Yes, what they do is wrong, but you have no idea what you would do under their circumstances. These people are not "evil" or "freaks". They came out of the same system as the rest of us.

You have no idea what you would do, and I really am astonished at how pious some of you come off.

There I said it! Now I'll probably here about it!

[hexola]

32. Not the same system...

They came out of the same system as the rest of us.

I disagree.

This is a specific sample of society.

1. The process of "Natural Selection" whereby some of us end up in the military and some of us don't. This is a specific and small minority of our society.

2. Military conditioning. This changes people. Most of us don't go through this "system."

3. Stress of war - this plays into it - but I think these folks are already predisposed to act this way...The stress is just the trigger. They were already "primed"
(Not trying to typify or impune the entire military...)

[skooooo]

33. ...well, yes and no

For whatever reason, they are in the military. If you are saying that the military conditions them toward some kind of tolerance toward violence, I would agree. And if you do say that, which you seem to, than how can you not "impune" the military, as you seem to wish to avoid?

However, please note -- one of the most prominent soldiers is straight out of the National Guard. These are not all "trained killers", but weekend warrior-lites.

My point is that the moment you start somehow "seperating" yourself from those who carried out the orders, you fall into a trap of thinking yourself somehow "different" than they are. You're not. You have the same potential that can be exploited if we allow the wrong people to continue running things.

[mopaul]

34. wrong

there is nothing in me that would do this to another human like myself. i've never been in the military, but i know my self.

[skooooo]

37. a lot of Germans thought the same thing.

I'm not trying to personally attack you. I'm sure your a "good" person, and I'm not coming up with this stance just out of the blue. The line of thought I tend to follow on this topic is based on what some people felt the lesson of WW2 Germany was.

Many times we comfort ourselves by chastising others, or others' actions. Indeed such things should be chastised. However, if we do not take a deeper look at the "why's" and the "who's" we are setting ourselves up for more disaster. The more we think ourselves "above" acting in similar ways if taught to, the more we delude ourselves, and the less inclined we are to look behind what has happened.

[Trinity]

39. so everyone who posted here was never in the military and

never have been in charge of prisoners? boy, you seem to be pretty omniscient. I'm glad you know my life story so well.. I was confused actually, everything IS hazy.... :eyes:


FWIW. everyone is responsible, You me Hollywood and ultimately Shrub for making revenge an American institution IMNSHO


Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[skooooo]

43. ..not in Iraq..

....not under George Bush.

[Trinity]

46. OK

But it is still about knowing right from wrong, there WAS a soldier there who knew the difference.... They are still ultimately responsible for their actions as well as the WHOLE chain of command all the way to shrub... I think we agree that the blame should not go solely to the troops with the boots on the ground, but neither are they blameless :shrug:

Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[skooooo]

49. I agree..

...I just don't like some of the attitude I see that I've already talked about. So I'll just stop.

[MadHound]

44. Oh, I hear you, loud and clear

And your point is a valid one. A little history might help here.

Back as recently as WWI, the US armed forces had a problem, the US soldiers seemed to be having some serious qualms about shooting fellow human beings, even if they are the enemy and shooting at them. This is the result of mankind trying to subvert natural tendencies. You see, mans' brain and psyche have evolved over the eons to the point where it is tough for anybody(at least anybody normal) to kill a fellow human being. Mankind had evolved, for survival purposes, an inherent block against killing another human.

This was evident in many studies over the years. Ammo use to kill rates were high, meaning that the soldiers weren't aiming to kill. Examination of battlefields showed that many soldiers were shooting high, or low, not aiming for the kill, but at best to wound, and at worst, just shooting their guns over the heads of their enemies. This had been a historical headache for the armed services for years. Evidence of this phenomenon were evident in the Spanish American War, the Civil War, and even anecdotal evidence from the War of 1812 and the Revolutionary War. Soldiers would shoot high, or simply continously reload their weapon, to the point that some guns had been found with seven or eight loads in the barrel, yet none shot.
Granted, part of this was due to fear, but socioligists and psychologists at the time identified the main problem, mans' inherent reluctance to kill his fellow man.

After the conclusion of WWI, the US armed services wished to devise a solution to this problem. After consulting various socioligists and psychiatrists on the matter, the armed service came up with a solution, the modern US boot camp. Through an intensive effort to break down normal human moral barriers, Boot Camp proved to be an effective brainwashing tool. Troops became desensitized and maleable, able to kill without a qualm. Kill rates went up, ammo use went down and the Pentagon was happy.

Never mind that the brainwashing each soldier recieved would have a lifelong effect on them, sometimes with disastorous results. This was written off as part of the cost of war and ignored throughout the aftermaths of both WWII and the Korean War. It was only after the Vietnam conflict that focus was finally brought to bear on Traumatic Stress Syndrome and other mental problems suffered by soldiers subjected to this dehumanization sanctioned by our military.

Of course during this time, Boot Camp had evolved also. It had gone from a blunt bludeoning instrument, using the brute trauma created by drill seargents and COs to a laser guided precision instrument that used increasingly effective psychological methods to break down a recruits psyche and rebuild it in the image of a killing machine. This has continued to this day, with our forces becoming even more desensitized as our military increasingly engages in "push button wars".

While this does not excuse the actions of these prison guards, nor should it absolve them of responsibility or just punishments, it does explain how our son, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters can find themselves performing acts in Iraq that they wouldn't even dream of performing here in the US. The Iraqi people have become "the enemy", and following the tenets of Boot Camp Basic Training, the enemy isn't human. Dogs, scum, slopes, chinks, ragheads, towelheads, they are all of these epithets and more. But to your average soldier, they are not human. Oh sure, if you ask these folks face to face what their prisoners are, they will tell you that they are human. But subconciously, as so many other stong human pathologies are, virtually each and every soldier has been desensitized and had their humanity stripped from them to the extent that they consider any enemy to be somehow non-human. And it is an easy easy step to go from considering an enemy non-human to acting out on that premise. We have seen this historically in the way slaves were treated in this country, and we are seeing it now in our treatment of POWs.

And this is more than likely the tip of the iceberg. Atrocities committed by US troops in Vietnam didn't come into sight for the most part until after the war was over. And though we have caught this particular incident, it is already being dismissed as an abberation by the powers that be. Sad to say, I don't think that this is an anomaly. Instead, I think that we will see more of these types of incidents both throughout the war and afterwards. After all, what else could you expect when you systematically dehumanize and desensitize a group of people, arm them, and turn them loose in a country far from home with orders to kill? Perhaps we'll be lucky, and this is an isolated incident. I truly hope so, but I fear that will be a hope that goes unfulfilled.

[Tinoire]

45. Totally agree. Cogs inthe Machine

They're guilty cogs but cogs nonetheless who almost seem as if they were set up to absorb the entire blame before we ask too many questions. An entire group of 17 people "mysteriously" disappeared, whisked away before these pictures were released.

There are a ton of other known names in the reports that was leaked to Seymour Hersch- Company Commanders, Battalion Commanders, First Sergeants, Senior NCO... Where are they?

Where are all the names & faces of the "contractors" involved (we now hire professional torturers it seems)?

And importantly, you really don't mean to tell me this only happened to men? Military Intelligence & sick civilians running this show and only a few lower-enlisted people are being held responsible?

This totally REEKS of a cover-up.

I put information about that in this thread: The Women of Abu Ghraib http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1517119

[Skidmore]

53. My daughter is not expected to be a cog,

she would be expected to refuse to do something that was immoral. I believe there is a provision that allows soldiers to refuse to comply with an order.

I raised my children to appreciate that they have free will. I'm afraid my kids would have to answer to me on this one as well as the world community. They know right from wrong.

[Tinoire]

58. Read the reports

Out of the 7 Enlisted people, only one had the good sense to tell the "spooks" in charge that if they wanted him to release prisoners to him, he needed the proper paper-work. He played the bureacratic little game of covering his ass. I'll bet you he was a spunky little kid too... He's the only one they're not frying out of the small cogs.

[Skidmore]

66. I believe the question

was what if that girl had been my daughter, and I told you. She has been raised to know better and believe me she would be answering me as to why those lessons were not heeded, then she would take the punishment she earned. I've always told my kids that if they were old enough to make choices which knowlingly get themselves in trouble, then they are old enough to deal with the consequences.

[JNelson6563]

54. No, it's you who doesn't get it

It has nothing to do with being pious. Quite the opposite. I think our children are a reflection of us and the environment they grew up in. Taking responsibility for the kind of people we, as parents, send out into the world is not pious, it is honest.

Ever hear the expression "the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree"? That expression has lived so long because of the truth behind it.

Julie

[skooooo]

60. So how do you disagree???/

I don't think you understood my point.

[JNelson6563]

76. Oh that's it! No more whiskey with breakfast for me.

Mea culpa.

:toast:

[never_get_over_it]

56. I'm sorry but...

I don't know what I would do under the circumstances but it wouldn't be this. I don't care what these people have been through their acts were disgusting. I talked with my brother yesterday who was in the military for 20+ years and served in Viet Nam - he is disgusted by these people - so there are people who come out of the same system and wouldn't act like this...

They are freaks and their acts were evil....and they should have known better.

[Randers]

70. No

I don't think the ones directly responsible were any more innocent than a man who rapes someone and blames it on whoever abused him as a child.

If people cannot be held accountable for their actions (and I would, hold accountable the people all the way up the ladder), then you may as well not have a justice system at all. You may as well say that ALL crimes are committed by all of us together and so we can hold no one accountable.

I think it sad that you think people have no control over anything they do.

While I agree that many people would follow the Pied Piper into the river, I don't agree that some people do not have stronger defense mechanisms against doing whatever they are told than you seem to think you have.

[RetroLounge]

73. So then you think her parents should be proud?

:wtf:

RL

[0007]

36. Yes, it would be a time for deep retrospection

Many factors come to mind.

Blaming yourself is exhibiting a lack of wisdom and good sense and is foolish.

[JNelson6563]

59. As a parent one takes credit AND blame for their child

To believe otherwise is exhibiting a lack of wisdom and good sense and is foolish.

We are quick to brag to others about accompliments of our children, academic, sports related, whatever. These are positive reflections on us as parents.

It is the brave and honest parent who can admit they also played a role in the behavior of our children that are not so positive.

I personally feel responsible for what kind of people my children will turn out to be as adults. I wish more folks would do same.

Julie

[Randers]

75. While I take some credit and some blame

there are too many variables and influences in a child's life to take complete responsibility.

Some people can and do control some things in their lives more than others.

Some are limited by where they can afford to live and other things that affect who the children will grow up with, what schools they will go to and all of that.

I am very happy at this point that my son and daughter have no plans to join the military (even though it means working to help pay for college). I am happy with the choices they have made in their lives. But I also realize they ARE choices.

I would be devastated to have a child choose to hurt others in this way. Any parent who wouldn't... well, that would be sad thing in itself.

[matcom]

8. she wouldn't be my daughter anymore

eom

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trumad]

11. Remember...there were 3 women involved....

But think higher guys... Who put the Business Consultant Reversist General with no prison experience in charge of that faciltiy? Let's see how high this goes....

[mopaul]

12. so is bush the commander in chief or ain't he?

i thought that meant something at one time. he is the one ultimately responsible for his own military.

yeah there were more women involved, i've seed at least two in the infamous photos

[TexasProgresive]

15. * has never been held accountable for anything in his life.

He's like the star football players who can do whatever they want in high school and college - they the man.

[radwriter0555]

20. This IS all clinton's fault you know. SOMEHOW it's all related to his

blow job.

[mopaul]

21. a c-span caller said it's clinton's fault & those aren't REAL soldiers

he said that's clinton's military over there, and they ain't even real soldiers. so, clinton is responsible for the bad behavior of certain cretins.

[TahitiNut]

17. Unconditional love.

Such a question might offer a path to understanding that "good" people do "bad" things. Under the 'right' circumstances, virtually any person might find themselves engaging in this behavior. Anyone.

This is one of the toughest lessons of all. It is, however, a lesson essential to gaining the understanding that's absolutely necessary if we're ever to curb such inhumane behavior.

It is the core purpose of military training and indoctrination to provide those 'circumstances' necessary to yield a trained and indoctrinated behavior that's contrary to the conscience of any half-ways spiritually sane human being. It's effective; it's been honed for millennia.

When you then take people who've been deliberately made somewhat insane and place them in the nearly total insanity of a "war" it's impossible to comprehend or even fairly judge their behavior from the sane perspective of a civilian, peacetime perspective.

This was, for me, the nightmarish reality of serving in Viet Nam and then returning to "the world." There was simply no conceivable way to communicate with anyone other than fellow Viet Nam Veterans.

[HFishbine]

22. Agreed

There will be plenty of people in line to hold the soldiers accountable, as well they should. But if it were a family member of mine, my role would be to re-humanize her with love and support. It's entirely possible that she could end up being a better human being in the long run.

[qwertyMike]

18. I'd disown her

Forever

She would cease to exist in my mind.

I have an 18-year old girl.

[skooooo]

26. ...easy to say.

Honestly, I don't understand the naitivity in this thread!

[Dhalgren]

42. One can always make excuses for the behavior

of anyone, in any circumstance. The question is, so what. The individuals who are responsible for treating POWs in the manner in which these photos show, should be held accountable. From the highest ranking officer (or civilian) to the actual, moronic "grunt" who did the deeds. This girl (and at 20, she's a girl, period) and her companions are guilty of crimes; they must answer for them. The military did not make them do what they did, no one can "make" them behave in such a inhumane way. All of the excuses for this type of behavior have already been used at Nuremberg (sp)and elsewhere. It wasn't accepted then and it shouldn't be now. This idea that because they are young or Americans or stupid they should then not be judged as functional adults (even young ones) is sad and pathetic.

[skooooo]

61. You're completely missing my point..

...or maybe I didn't express it well. Someother time, maybe...

[Q]

25. Mopaul...you're talking about EMPATHY...

...and only bleeding heart liberals seem to fully understand what that means these days.

[RhodaGrits]

29. I am deeply ashamed just as a fellow American.

I've often thought about these things because my ancestry is German on all sides, coming to this country shortly before WWI. I have never had any doubt that human beings that are your close relatives and neighbors can, under the right circumstances, do unspeakable acts. I find that very terrifying. I have always hoped that I would have the courage to say No, This is Wrong. I think that is what we need to teach our kids. There is huge pressure to go along - and more not to be the snitch.

[dutchdemocrat]

30. Here's what her mother says...

Another reservist, Lynndie R. England, 21, told her mother in January about potential problems at the Iraq prison.

England grew up in a trailer down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, W.Va., a one-stoplight town about 13 miles south of Cumberland.

Yesterday afternoon, her mother, Terrie England, pressed her fingers to her lips when a reporter showed her a newspaper photo of her daughter smiling in front of what a caption said were nude Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

"Oh, my God," she said, her body stiffening as she sat on a cooler on the trailer's small stoop.

"I can't get over this," she said, taking a drag on her cigarette.

Lynndie England, a railroad worker's daughter who made honor roll at the high school near here, had enlisted in the 372nd for college money and the chance to widen her small-town horizons. In January, however, she gave her family the first inkling that something had gone woefully wrong.

"I just want you to know that there might be some trouble," she warned her mother in a phone call from Baghdad. "But I don't want you to worry."

Lynndie England said she was under orders to say no more. The military has told the family nothing; all the Englands know is that she has been detained, apparently in connection with the unit's alleged misconduct at the prison.

"Whether she's charged or not, I don't know," Terrie England said.

This was not supposed to be the fate of a girl who grew up hunting turkey or killing time with her sister at the local Dairy Dip, making wisecracks about the cars whizzing past.

"She wanted to see the world and go to college," said Terrie England, whose T-shirt bore a design of heart-shaped American flags. "Now the government turned their back on her, and everything's a big joke."

She held photos of her daughter in khakis, smiling atop a camel in Iraq.

At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

Everyone had been proud of Lynndie England. A Wal-Mart in nearby LaVale displays her photo on its Wall of Honor.

snip

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,7339983.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[libertad]

65. stupid parents make stupid children. They are too dumb to be ashamed.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

78. dutchdemocrat

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
news source.


Thank you.

DU Moderator

[Onlooker]

31. I doubt there has ever been a war without war crimes

What these soldiers did was awful, absolutely sick, but war crimes are just another reason why war is bad. Many of the people who join the military are morally vacant. Occasionally, these people, by plan or chance, get put into the same room together where they can get away with their barbarism. What's really scary about this incident is that you can bet for every crime for which there is photographic proof, there are dozens of similar crimes without such proof.

[oneighty]

38. Hmmmmmmmmm

"Many of the people who join the military are morally vacant."

Do you have a source for that? Or is it just your opinion. Your brush is broad.

Sigh.

180. Veteran.

[Onlooker]

63. I said "many"

No, I don't have proof that many of the people in the military are morally vacant, but I've known Marines and other soldiers over the years who have told me some pretty creepy stories about why they joined the military or about being in the military. Again, I said, "many" people, not most, not all, just many.

[Misunderestimator]

41. Many vs. Some... Big difference

And I don't think "many" applies. Sounds so like blaming vietnam vets as they returned from such horrors we could never know.

[Trinity]

48. War IS A crime..

just some are justified(WWII) and some are not (Vietnam Iraq)


just MNSHO



Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[libertad]

67. I don't agree that MANY military people are immoral. That is an

unfair generalization.

[Trinity]

35. Let's not forget...

that it was another soldier there, who knew this was wrong that let the cat out of the bag. How come he knew it was wrong and the others didn't? When I was in, one was encouraged to report anything that seemed Morally wrong, now what your commander did with that info was something else entirely.. Now if it was my child , I would wonder where I went wrong, because I would hope that I was able to convey to them a better moral compass than that, a bit more respect for basic human decency... or at least a bit more intelligence to at least NOT take pictures of it, pictures that may get released and instill more hatred from the locals..... the blood of the next dead Americans are on their hands... :(




Peace? :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

[teryang]

40. These reservists are not well conditioned

It is less likely that this would occur with regular forces unless of course they were special forces or military intelligence and had been ordered to do this. They wouldn't have taken pictures, they're too smart. If they had, they would have immediately been stamped TOP SECRET. These amateurs from West Virginia obviously developed sadistic taste for what they were doing. Too bad they didn't get pictures of the real interrogators.

Which brings up the point that military intelligence, contractors and CIA types apparently were given carte blanche to do whatever they could within a psychological torture/rubber hose ROE to try to get the information they wanted.

Regular MPs and Provost Marshals would have been very resistant to this because of their training. The higher ups have some dummies from the sticks to become the scapegoats. Thank god they did. Otherwise we would never have found out about this.

Those reservists who are taking the fall for the intel types and civilians are victims of their own immorality and ignorance about how a wartime government operates.

The question is when are the intel types, contractors and CIA people going to be referred for indictment and information by Rumsfeldt? The answer is probably never.

[Jack Rabbit]

51. I, too, have draft-age children

They are two sons: one is 24; the other turns 21 this month.

It would cause a great deal of pain if either of them were to get caught up in something like this. I have stood beside them when they got in trouble in school doing things I didn't approve; but this is not so venial.

I don't know exactly what I would say to any son of mine who did such things. But I would get his side of the story first.

I certainly feel for Lynndie English's mother.

[spanone]

52. There would be great shame in my household.

AS there should be in
Americas'.

[KTinaY]

57. These morons deserve no breaks.

It really surprises me how people are saying "oh come on, it was the higher ups." Or "They were stressed." People should be furious about this. If it were one of my children I would take a stick to them the next time I saw them. This is disgusting and the excuses are crap. You don't sexually abuse/torture someone just because you are stressed out. You may punch them a few times but not sexual abuse. Look at the picture real close of that pregnant woman (who by the way resembles nothing of a woman) does she look like she is stressed? She looks like she is having the time of her life. She is a disgusting pig and she should be treated like one. People should go after the high ups, the low, and the in betweens. No one deserves any sympathy or break that was involved with this.
I am an American convert to Islam and I have a lot of friends from the ME and there is nothing worse than sexual abuse in their culture. They would rather be shot dead on the spot then to have to go through what those animals did to them.

[anarchy1999]

62. I have a daughter turning 16 on Wednesday. I've thought alot about this.

Not one good answer, except I would just be shocked and horrified. I would be asking myself how did I fail as a parent. There is just not a good answer. I'd be very angry with her as well.

Disown, never. That is where that unconditional love part comes in, she would still be my daughter, but I would feel that she should pay and I would also be looking hard for her superiors or whoever else was supposed to be in charge of this disaster.

PS/I would have never let her go! If I had to tie her up and ship her across a border. I would never have let her go for this administration's lies!

Illegal war, illegal occupation, equals war crimes, period.

[Pax Argent]

64. I'd be drinking and running over in my head

what I had done to fail her, because somebody or something has.
I'm of two minds on this issue:

The compassionate side of me is thoroughly digusted that she could treat other human beings this way. The cruelty coupled with the calculated way that these tortures were set up to capitalize on Iraqi taboos are atrocious.

The logical side of me is thoroughly digusted that she would allow herself to be photographed doing it and allow those pictures to become widely disseminated.

The greater crime here is that more people will die due to the renewed distrust of US intentions. Whatever small chance there was that the Iraqis would trust us are now long gone along with any quarter we might have found when Bush launches PNAC 2 against Syria and Iran if he wins in '04. Iraq will remain to us as Afghanistan was to the Russians.

Maybe she's just a straight sociopath, but given the others engaged in this behaviour along with things I've read on other blogs (FR anyone?) and the fact that there was a MARKET for those pictures, I'm guessing its cultural.

As a parent I would also weep, as her sacrifice is assured as a peace offering of the empire. These people will not be seen again anytime soon.

[democratreformed]

68. Good Lord, that is too much to imagine

I absolutely would not know what to do.

[donsu]

71. the bottom line is that it is racism RACISM

racism taught in the home, school, church and Fox TV

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. Nonononononono. Not MY girls. Not ever. Not even in alternate realities.

No way. No. No. No. They have souls, they respect life and are going to stay that way for their entire lives (even though they're just 3 and 8 now).

I can't even see any of them joining the Armed Forces.