Democrats as apostates in the face of Bush's* war on truth and liberty

[Q]

- How many times have you heard something like this?:

"It makes us look like loons and thus benefits Bush by allowing him to portray his critics as a bunch of crazies."

- But what could be more 'loony' than impeaching a president for lying about sex? What could be more 'crazy' than lying a nation into an illegal war that results in the unnecessary death of thousands?

- Why is it that so many Democrats seem afraid of saying the wrong thing and offending the Right? Do you really believe they care what YOU think when they accuse the Left of everything from laziness to treason?

- Bush* is a fool and a puppet leader for international corporations...but he is 'respected' by many on the right for the strength of his CONVICTIONS. Bush* is perceived as a strong leader because he makes decisions and stands by them.

- We have scores of (centrist) Democrats discouraging the Democratic party from fighting Bush* on his own turf. We're told we only give them ammunition when we say bad (but truthful) things about the Bush* government. We're advised that 'people' are tired of partisan politics. We're encouraged to 'go along to get along' and 'get over' the insults and lawlessness of the past.

- We've been told to get over blatantly stolen elections - character assassination of fellow Democrats - corporate/government/media corruption - shadow and secretive governments - obstruction of justice - lies that drove this nation to war...and a myriad of other illegal acts and injustices against the people and their Constitution.

- What is it going to take for Democrats to be pissed enough to fight back? The people await the arrival of a leader...someone to step forward and seek equal justice in their name. There is a time for bipartisanship and a time to fight. Now is NOT the time to lay low and wait for the opposition to self-destruct. The people will respect and follow someone who will fight the good fight. Democrats must LEAD and FIGHT BACK or expect the Bush* Steamroller to crush them in November. It's what they do best: destroy.

- It's up to the loyal opposition. Fight or flight. Which will it be?

[ShaneGR]

1. Blah, blah, blah

What are you talking about?

[Q]

2. You wouldn't know what I'm talking about...

...it's as simple as that.

- I"m looking for responses from those who care more about America than 'winning'. But thanks for playing.

[ShaneGR]

3. No

You're looking for people to bash Democrats. Period.

[Q]

4. How many times...

...have you accused fellow Democrats of 'bashing' when they only seek a party that fights for them and their country?

- The very survival of 'our' country and party is at stake...and all you can do is whimper about bashing.

[are_we_united_yet]

18. I don't think so

Q's post have generally been very good and well thought out. I find it hard to believe that bashing Dem's is the motive.

[mopaul]

6. dems could use a little bashing, but Q has a point.

we dems have ugly things to face in the mirror too. it's o.k. to point out our weaknesses and strengths, and i don't really see his post as bashing dems. but some of us do need a good kick in the head now and then to get our attentions.

i've grown weary of 'calm down, we'll vote em' out in the fall', and, 'let's not appear too emotional here, we'll embarass ourselves to the neoconazis', and shit like that.

maybe you ain't going slightly crazy like some of us, and i wonder why not?

[Q]

9. I'm tired of watchig Dems bring a knife to a 'gun fight'...

..and this is exactly what the Bushie Republicans have come to expect. They're used to us not fighting back or giving as good as we get.

- What will it take? That's all I want to know.

- I grew up in an era when Democrats wouldn't take this kind of shit from Republicans. I've been a LOYAL Democrat for 30 years...but I have to say...I'm losing all respect for a party that won't jump into the fray and fight after they've been repeatedly sucker punched.

- I'd like to see an end to the 'you're only bashing Democrats' rhetoric. Bush* and his cronies are the enemies here. But mark my words...they WILL stay in power and do anything they can to destroy us as long as we continue to act like a scared child afraid to confront the schoolyard bully.

[Q]

5. Playing it 'safe' put our party in the minority...

...and even the centrists should understand that it could be a permanent minority if we don't act to change the course of the party.

- Kerry is about to be character assassinated...just like Clinton and Gore. And what will our party do? Complain? Stomp their feet? Whine?

- Or will they FIGHT BACK and stand their ground? America demands a loyal opposition.

- The Bushies are changing our very government...the way it operates...the way it responds and is responsible to the people. These kinds of changes will make it impossible for a Democrat to govern FOR the people.

- Liberals, Greenies, Independents...we need your help in turning this around...in helping our party back to its grass roots.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. well said, and I agree

The Dems have to fightback and get serious about stuff sometime soon, or kerry will suffer the same kind of unanswered character assassination that Clinton and Gore and Hillary and others have gone through. Though it appears that Kerry will be willing to fight back and call a lie a lie, I'd like to see a lot more dems, both the elected ones and the ones behind the scenes working for the party, follow along with an ability to call a lie a lie and be confrontational when the reichwing starts assassinating.

[Q]

12. We must fight them as a PARTY...

...and not allow our nominee to flap in the wind as the Republicans and Neocons tear him apart. We should be ashamed at the way we abandoned Gore at the first sign of hardship.

- I'm not talking about 'stepping into line' and act like Republican clones. I'm talking about fighting back against their 'street fighters' who will stick a knife in your side or a knee in your groin while putting out a hand in 'friendship'.

- The Bushies are traitors to America and its Constitution. If we're not brave enough to come right out and say it...perhaps we don't 'deserve' to win. Tell your representatives you want them to fight...not leave the future of our country and party to fate.

[YIMA]

8. I agree.

But I can't help believing we are up against forces behind the scene, people we see and others we don't see, who are intent on losing so they can come in behind it all and sweep up the pieces for their own political reasons. I don't know what we can do about that or if we can do anything at all or if it even exists. My friends wonder out loud whether Hillary is being set up for 2008 and the rest of the party be damned, and I must admit a lot of the things they say make sense, but I don't know. Maybe I just don't want to believe that is a possibility. I'm just thinking about it now and it scares me how little control we probably do have. :scared:

[Q]

19. Don't be afraid...get pissed and fight.

- I too have wondered about the grand strategy of the Democratic party. It's stunning that the party of the people can't appeal to their very broad base in order to take back the government in their name.

- We don't need to change the Democratic Platform because it's what the majority of Americans want...from choice to public education to social security. What's in need of change is the way we FIGHT for what we profess to believe in.

- We have little or no 'control' of our government for a reason. We haven't fought hard enough to earn the respect and votes of the People looking for true leadership in these very trying times.

[YIMA]

26. I want to have hope.

I'm concerned that it might be the case that the party has been hijacked by people who want to splinter us temporarily so they can herd us altogether under one banner for their own purposes in 2008. Like I said, I can't prove it, but I get this feeling they can pull strings in the media and in the party that will throw events to where they can take advantage of the situation. So many pieces of the puzzle seem to be falling exactly into place. My friends are very convinced the rig is in and there's nothing we can do. A few are going third-party they're so frustrated. I don't want to be a downer, maybe it's just Monday and I need to stop before I bring others down, but I don't have the enthusiam you have nor do I have the confidence at this point that our own party leaders are on our side. Maybe the coming weeks and months will change my mind.

Thank you for your comments. I will keep them in mind. :-)

[workforpower]

10. Oh Please!

Quit whinng. Democrats are saying the right things. Dean and Kucinch and Nadir are LOSERS. If you don't like it push off
Vote as you wish. Democrats don't care for your carping, its just spite and sour grapes.

[Q]

13. Read the thread before you respond...

...and thus make more sense in your responses.

[gandalf]

27. Who are Kucinch and Nadir?

Are you drunk or only not so proficient in spelling?

[dusty64]

11. Unfortunately, too

many Democrats in positions of power in the party are under the influence of the same corporations backing our regime. After (definitely after) we get back into power an enema of the party is in order.

[Q]

14. But we're not DEMANDING...

...that they break off these relationships. Instead...we're telling our party leadership we'll vote for them no matter what they do. While 'anybody but Bush*' is a noble and necessary goal...we're sending the wrong message to our leadership by not insisting that they fight against the Bush* corruption and obstruction of justice.

- I'm going to bring up the 'P' word: principles. There are millions of voters out there waiting to vote for something they can believe in. They will vote for the 'good guys' every time...but they must be able to discern the difference. Voters have many questions that are going unanswered...like why are many Democrats still supporting the Iraq invasion and occupation when they KNOW Bush" lied them into a war of aggression?

- Democratic voters want to know why their leadership has 'allowed' the Bushies to obstruct justice in the matter of 9-11. They want to know why the loyal opposition is doing nothing about the Bushies diverting nearly a billion dollars to the planning and execution of a SECRET WAR.

....After a while...silence becomes betrayal....

[Nlighten1]

15. It is time to fix bayonets.

I said in another thread that ABB isn't enough for me anymore. How much do the American people have to loose before they figure out the Democratic party has become an fascist enabling sham?

[Q]

17. At the same time, we KNOW we have to vote Bush* out of office..

...but that doesn't mean we can't yell at our party and tell them they're not doing enough to counter the 'hostile takeover' of OUR government.

[Q]

16. To those who accuse me of 'bashing'...

...go and take a look at the thread that claims that Kerry looks like a 'fool' in a picture of him on a bike. That's what I call unnecessary bashing and a joke when what we really need is to confront our political enemies with the truth. Threads like that HELP the Bushies weaken the Kerry campaign.

- Certainly we can support our party AND encourage them NOT to be willing punching bags at the same time?

[gandalf]

20. There IS really a danger when saying the ugly truth...

that is what is fascinating me. It can be called "unpatriotic", partisan, etc, you're right there.

Look what happened to McKinney. In the light of the recent "revelations" of the "independent" 9/11 commission, her questions to Bush were more than justified. But she lost her seat about her so-called absurd allegations.

It is really alarming that such a climate could have been created where critical statements can be called unpatriotic.

It is, according to the Pentagon, unpatriotic to publish pictures that show the US army might not be different from Saddam's torturers. Even though it might be the truth.

[Q]

22. It's called 'nationalism'...

...and it's used to convince the masses that ANY objection to official (Bush*) policy is treasonous during a 'time of war'. Indeed...that's exactly WHY the Bushies invented this 'war on terrorism' instead of taking an approach of calm and reason. It provides them cover for their corruption and malfeasance.

- What's disturbing is that too many Democrats have joined with the 'other' side in denouncing those who want the nation to wake up and smell the fascism. And yes...it CAN happen here.

[gandalf]

25. Interesting example: Syria

This morning, I heard on the radio a feature about Syria's press (because today is the day of the free press or so).

As Syria is formally at war with Israel for 40 years now, kind of martial law is ruling, so there is no free press.

One could have drawn a parallel to the US in this regard. Naturally the press in the US has more possibilities than in Syria, but it is certainly not really free. And less so after Sept. 11.

How handy a war can be. A "war on terror" can help much...

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. I was never one to shut my mouth

and I talk to anyone, who is willing to listen, about the shit that is going in our country for the last 3 years.

I think in the process, I've changed a few minds. At least, I hope so?

[Q]

23. Protest...dissent...march and demand changes...

- There should be no 'middle ground' in these times of a government out of control and working outside of our Constitution.

- Nearly HALF of this country will support Bush* no matter what. You'll NEVER change their minds of convince them to come to our side. We're left with no other choice but to fight them and return our country to the People.

[Jacobin]

24. Why should they fight?

Their interests are more aligned than not. Look at the political contributions. Look at their joint interest in conquest of the Middle East, although perhaps for slightly different reasons.

The democratic leadership no longer leads traditional democratic thought and values, and hasn't for quite some time.

If you ran a litmus test of their positions, the current dem leadership would score somewhere in the moderate republican range. They aren't even conservative democrats anymore for the most part.

I don't know why this is puzzling to some.

(perhaps my evaluation of this is skewed. I'm looking at it from the context of the 1960's and 70's)

[Q]

28. But how can we change that reality...

...in time to save our republic? We understand the problems but not the solutions.

- It would help if the moderate middle of the roaders would join with us in changing the direction of OUR party. But unfortunately THEY are the ones that don't want to fight Bush*...just meekly attempt to vote him out of office. I have to ask...have they learned nothing from the last three years?

- Have they not witnessed the RWing takeover of our government? The subjugation of the free press? The intimidation and threats against our Democratic congress? Secretive government? Aggressive wars? Corruption and war profiteering?

- We hear brave Democrats speak out against these crimes and injustices...only to be silenced and ridiculed by the centrists and other enablers and apologists.

[Ripley]

29. Actually I don't think there are very many Dems who say

that about "we're tired of partisan politics...quit attacking Bush." I think the media seek out the few like that and use that sound bite, while ignoring the thousands of others interviewed who flat out criticized Smirk. In fact, I have seen a steady stream of questionable LBN posts lately saying "Dems fear..." "Dems afraid Kerry..." and "Dems like Bush over Kerry..."

Come on. They never have more than one direct quote and you have no way of telling if that person is telling the truth that they are a registered Democrat.

And anyway, as an Independent I have been pleased to see the polls lately which show (while distrusting both parties on corporate issues, etc.) they overwhelmingly think the current administration is lying about a multitude of issues. Let's hope they vote.

[Q]

30. But will voting be enough?

- That's the frustrating part of the democratic 'strategy'. They're playing 'nice' in an attempt to not turn off those who won't vote Democratic anyway. It's a myth that Democrats will somehow win the votes of centrists by adopting more conservative policies. It's a myth perpetuated by the Right to convince Dems that they need to abandon their base in order to 'win'.

- The 'free press' (as a mouthpiece for the right) has insisted since Clinton that America is tired of 'partisan politics'. That's one of many excuses the new media uses to avoid reporting on Bushie corruption and wrongdoing. The failure of the media to do their jobs also gives enabling democrats an excuse not to confront the important issues.

- The right is able to frame the debate against Democrats because of their tactics in intimidation and perception management. They have scores of talking head pundits provided with talking points who go out every day to smear their opposition. The Democrats have NOTHING like this...no organized effort to defend or oppose. This leaves the defense of the party to the Bush* apologists in congress.

[Q]

31. I'll answer my own question...

- A system was set in place in 2000 that enables the Right to throw away, dismiss and hide literally hundreds of thousands of ballots. (Read Palast's latest for some clues). 2004 will be no different than 2000 in this regard.

- What do you do with an opponent that refuses to lose...even if they have to break the rules and letter of the law in order to do it? You oppose them with every fiber of your being and refuse to participate in the fraud.

- It's weird how Americans get more upset at atheletes cheating at sports than politicians cheating to get in office.

[gandalf]

32. Meaning what exactly?

On the whole, I agree with your very pessimistic analysis. But: What exactly can be done?

"You oppose them with every fiber of your being and refuse to participate in the fraud." You could organize a revolution. Probably that could you bring to Guantanamo quicker than substantial results are achieved.

Organizing marches? Calling representatives and editors? Probably the only possible legal way. Yet, marching within "free speech zones" under the fire of rubber bullets is no fun either...