Let's get something straight (female soldier abusing Iraqi's)

[TheBlob]

Most articles and news reports I've seen claim the woman is 'giving the thumbs up' or 'pointing at the prisoner.'

Bullshit.

She is holding and imaginary gun and pretending to blow their balls off!

Look at her hands.

Who the Hell can't see this?

[kiahzero]

1. Damn, you're right

That's even sicker.

[Caution]

2. Thank you!

I thought it was just me reading into the pictures. That is exactly what i thought it looked like.

[Failure]

3. I do...

SHe's all big and bad when they're tied up and blindfolded, but I know those guys wouldn't think twice of cutting her head off if they had the chance. those soldiers are fucking cowards! sick fuckers.

[cynic4life]

6. yeah

Kind of reminds me of the loud mouthed bullies when you were a kid...they were all tough and ready to kick your ass when they had a little bit of muscle to back them up..but when the muscle was gone they'd run like hell to get away from you

[Bandit]

18. To which soldiers are you referring

How do you Know what the prisoner would or would not do? How do you know if the prisoner is even a soldier or not? I sense by your post that you are suggesting the American soldier is correct in her actions because the prisoner would be happy to do her bodily harm. I suspect you are correct that the prisoner would indeed wish harm on all Americans at this point in his life. He really hasn't been treated with the respect that even an enemy would and should deserve.

[Failure]

24. I'm referring to the most "professional" soldiers in the world n/t

[Bronco69]

4. Do you have a link to that picture?

I've been on a tv/computer fast for a few days and I haven't seen it. Thanks in advance. :-)

[Jack Rabbit]

5. She was pointing at his groin

Not pretending to "blow his balls off."

Yes, you can see it for what it really is and I can, too. We're not blind. But let's allow the media some editorial leeway for some concept of "taste". We're smart enough to get through the euphemisms.

[kiahzero]

8. Look at the picture, and her hand placement

One hand is 'pointing', and the other is vertical, with the index finger extended.

She's pretending to hold an assault rifle, with her finger on the trigger, aimed towards the groin.

[krkaufman]

68. * * * LOOK AT HER TRIGGER FINGER * * *

You can try to explain it away as "pointing"... until you look at her trigger finger. Notice how it is slightly extended?

Now give yourself a thumbs-up. Your index finger is tucked in with the rest, right?

And remember, these are people who've practiced with their weapons for potentially years, and so this accurate "pretending" is really just second nature at this point. Somebody with knowledge could probably tell you exactly what model gun this guard uses.

[kiahzero]

72. Isn't that exactly what I just said? n/t

[Iceburg]

9. I'd say she's doing both (pic included)

[radwriter0555]

77. Yes, right hand is the "thumbs up" sign, left hand is the "gun" sign...

absolutely.

Court-martial that asshole for war crimes.

[Sparkly]

10. Taste?

I'd prefer the truth. She's pretending to hold a gun, pointed at his groin. That's very different from pointing as in "look at that groin." It's a much more violent statement and needs to be reported, imo.

[Tinoire]

37. You're wrong Jack... Too kind

Love you... but I hadn't even noticed that until it was bluntly pointed out. Seriously.

:hi:

[mouse7]

64. Neither had I.

Good catch :-)

[Tinoire]

66. Whew thank you

Glad to know I'm not alone :)

[Sparkly]

7. Absolutely

I can't believe anybody would try to spin it any other way.

I'm wondering why I'm even more outraged to see a woman acting this way. As a woman, do I expect more from women than men? Is it pride in my gender that I don't want to see another woman being this disgraceful? Is it some idea that women are creative nurturers and men are destructive, violent hunters or something?

I don't know, but somehow it's even more painful for me to see a woman doing this, whether that's right or wrong.

[neverborn]

57. Agreed.

I still believe your gender is better than mine... but nothing is perfect.

[SharonAnn]

86. Me too. I do expect more of women but we're just as likely to

to get our sense of right and wrong just as messed up.

[FizzFuzz]

11. everyone here is focusing on that idiot chick

but isnt what the soldier-dudes are doing just as putrid? Miming (or actually?)ordering blow-jobs? Boinking another soldier-chick over a pile of dead bodies?

Kind of weird to me how a woman does exactly what a man does, and the cries of outrage go solely to her as if she were the one who invented it.

I'd like to have seen what the "men" were doing to the prisoners BEFORE the camera came out.

Edit:--- I wouldn't "like" to see that, but it would be instructive. Maybe that woman getting a rush of power through identifying with the macho destructiveness and aggression that she is surrounded by.

[LittleApple81]

13. I agree. But I think for most men to see a woman doing this

is unthinkable, while seeing a man doing it is quite probable.

I don't like men making more of a fuss about the woman doing something criminal and horrific, but in a certain way it corroborates my idea that women generally don't do this so the shock is even greater.

[Tinoire]

31. There's a lot more to this story than meets the eye

I fear this is just the tip of the iceberg of a very ugly story and they are trying to cover up something very ugly.

Their message to the public is that

this is an isolated incident
- 6 low-ranking soldiers
- the Army conducted a thorough investigation
- ALL the culprits have been apprehended and will be punished
- even throwing in a sacrificial female brigadier general to complete the picture that this is just an abbheration.

There's a thread going in LBN right now about that... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x520049

Several of us are working on the aspects that just make no sense... One big one is where are all the others who worked in this prison?

SSG Chip Frederic said on tv that there were only 7 of them to run a prison of 900 prisoners (???????)

Yesterday I read that 17 others had been suspended

The photos have surfaced in connection with the suspension in March of 17 members of the 800th Military Police Brigade for mistreatment and abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in November and December of last year.

17 were suspended but we hear nothing about them? And the Army mysteriously left only the guilty 7 to run every aspect of a prison for 900 prisoners? Feeding them? Transporting them? Processing them?

Just a Staff Sergeant in charge? Jeez, Dubya himself must have written this script.

Where are all the contractors who supplement the Army's intel people? Where are all the Intel people it took to interrogate 900 prisoners?

And what about the mysterious 17 who were suspended back in Nov/Dec?

Things just aren't adding up here...

[chookie]

49. Also, she is just "trailer trash"

Lynndie England's mother identified her from the photo.
The mother was described in a Baltimore paper as making a statement in front of her trailer in rural West Virginia.

You see? She's just trailer trash. Nothing to see here. Move on. Our soldiers are over there helping old ladies across the street, and showing grateful Iraqis how to live in freedom.

Trouble is, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I was shocked to find out that this became public when these photos appeared on a porn site. Apparently they were sent to a friend back in the States to give them a big laugh, and they distributed them all over the internet. It is reported that many other such photos are turning up on internet porn sites.

A similar incident came to light about a year ago -- involving British mistreatment and torture of Iraqi POWs -- same sort of thing -- stripping them, humiliating them, making them pose in sexual acts -- and PHOTOGRAPHING them. The sadistic Brit bastards got caught when the perpetrator was on leave back in Limey Land, and went to a one-hour photo place to have the pictures developed. The clerk detained him on a pretence, and handed them over to the police, and the sadistic little shit got caught.

[Tinoire]

51. OMG. They first surfaced on PORN sites?!

The "official" US story according to that maggot Kimmet, is that a soldier turned them in to his military authorities saying that he couldn't live with this.

In the simplistic little script the government is peddling, this is supposedly the 7th soldier... the one out of the 7 who was not charged.

The story about the porn sites makes a LOT more sense because CBS was asked to postpone broadcasting and they did so until it was "learned" that other people had the photos to so they decided to go ahead. Strangely, it has been 2 days and no one else is carrying this. no additional pictures have surfaced... Some of us found this very strange. On porn sites huh? that would explain why they and additional, new photos aren't all over the place.

Spin, spin, spin.

No wonder Ashcroft needs to crack down on porn.

Do you have any additional details on this? Sources?

On edit: These are on PORN SITES? I dare not wonder how much more just that little fact is going to inflame the Iraqi, the Arab people.

[chookie]

53. Here's the link again

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

"The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS. We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to “loose” Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq’s religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner “cooperation” by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along. "

As I said, I am not the person who can answer this specifically, because I do not "do porn", although I am so disturbed by this angle that I am going to contact Larry Flynt and see if he can provide some documentation.

[Tinoire]

59. THANK YOU! FOR ALL OF THAT!

:hug:

[RebelOne]

79. I resent the phrase "trailer trash.."

I live in a mobile home and I am not a beer-swilling, illiterate redneck, as it seems people characterize those who live in mobile homes.

[Tinoire]

82. Which is why you're not trash...

But the term itself is no different than Euro or Yuppie trash if you think about it.

Don't let it get to you. Thanks for pointing it out to us.

[RebelOne]

84. Thanks. But sometimes it really gets to me when I hear

that term, which is not true as the majority of people who live in mobile homes are retired people and young couples on the way to buying a house. At least that is the case in the mobile home park where I live.

[Tinoire]

85. I understand.

and I dislike the broad brush too. You're not the first at DU to bring this up... There's plenty of trash in the gated communities & on Park Avenue too lol.

Hang tough & peace

[QC]

88. Class prejudice is perfectly acceptable here,

as your own casual, unself-conscious use of the word "redneck" illustrates.

[radwriter0555]

78. we don't expect to see a female being so cruel, but then, humans descend

to the lowest form of the group order.

[seemslikeadream]

12. I found these in her old bedroom at her parents house

[readmylips]

14. Have that woman and man been identified?

I wonder which state they're from? I'm sure their families recognized them immediately. Maybe, they have a connection to Charles Manson. I wonder if other soldiers have seen those photos? If those two come back in a box, bush and the media will make them heroes. Small man bush will use them for his jeeezus campaign promo.

[seemslikeadream]

22. They are from Hagerstown, MD

Hagerstown, MD TV just said soldiers are from Cumberland MD area


Relatives told the Baltimore Sun the soldiers are assigned to the 372nd Military Police Company

http://www.nbc25.com/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=906

[Tinoire]

41. Thanks n/t

[PsN2Wind]

15. If this is how female soldiers treat male

prisoners, detainees, POWS,(take your pick). How do you think the male soldiers are treating female prisoners? The prison was already there so we're using it and the "rape rooms" were already there so .............

[FizzFuzz]

19. ABSOLUTELY! Good point!

of course, men raping women is under the radar. Geez, "our" male soldiers are raping their female compadres, but that doesn't get much attention. Just a vapid promise from the military that they are "looking into it." Oh yeah, and arrests for the women who speak up about it.

Human nature is quick to vilify women for doing what men do, while men do what men do and get away with it by means of minimization, apologists and lack of attention by the men who hold the power.

[redqueen]

26. The old "boys will be boys" excuse

:puke:

[neverborn]

58. Ugh. So true.

[Tina H]

75. who got arrested for speaking up about it?

I tried GOOGLE, but I couldn't find out what speaking-up arrest you are referring to.

[Ilsa]

83. I'm waiting for one of the victims to

slice off some testicles. Bet that will get some attention.

(A female friend was molested by another younger naval officer at Tailhook years ago. He came up from behind and grabbed her. She latched onto his privates and slammed him into the hall wall and asked him if it felt good. His buddies at the end of the hallway took off running.)

[SEAburb]

30. What an outrageous sexist assertion

Let's keep to the facts and not make shit up.

[Tinoire]

35. No it is not.

And you shouldn't need a computer to add 2 + 2.

A few weeks before everything exploded like this, there were reports of female prisoners being released and sent out in the streets in various stages of nudity.

I am going to find those reports.

There is something big going on down there and IT STINKS.

[SEAburb]

39. Claiming every male soldier would rape female prisoners is sexist

All men aren't rapist and I won't standby and let that assertion just pass. Before you start adding you need accurate numbers.

[redqueen]

43. Nobody said *every* male soldier

The fact is that you can bank on it happening.

You may want to quibble about how many and such, but the fact is that the 'good egg' soldiers who know about it and say nothing are enabling it to continue. So it's really much, much worse than you apparently want to accept.

[prodigal_green]

48. Rape is a war tactic

and has been since time immemorial.

It's no surprise that given the opportunity to completely violate another human being that she would do that. Much as in prison, I'm sure we'll find out that men have been raping men over there too.

Not ALL soldiers, but at least some of them. Like I said, it's been a tactic in war since the beginning of time. That's no excuse, it is horrifying what they did, it is horrifying that they thought it was OK enough to actually record on film and distribute, but we shouldn't be surprised.

[redqueen]

54. Not surprised, we *should* be outraged!

There is a reason we have the Geneva Conventions.

If we're going to accept that the Geneva Conventions is just a bunch of nonsense to make the civilized portion of humanity shut up and let the barbarians get their war on, then people should know that.

The fact that these pictures are raising a stink is proof that people don't just accept as a fact that the Geneva Convention is bull$hit.

[Tinoire]

44. Nobody made that claim. Don't mis-represent

The poster claimed it would be ridiculous to believe males there weren't doing just as vile things to female prisoners. You jumped in all offended and now two posts later assert that it was claimed "every male soldier would rape female prisoners".

How on earth did you make such a huge leap?

[chookie]

50. Documented evidence of your assertion exists

"The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS. We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to “loose” Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq’s religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner “cooperation” by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along. "
from
http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

Imagine -- they have been sending images to post on porno sites -- and this is how these sadistic creeps got caught.

I'm not up to doing the "research" involved, but apparently these images are circulating widely on the porn underground. Savages.

[readmylips]

16. Have that woman and man been identified?

I wonder which state they're from? I'm sure their families recognized them immediately. Maybe, they have a connection to Charles Manson. I wonder if other soldiers have seen those photos? If those two come back in a box, bush and the media will make them heroes. Small man bush will use them for his jeeezus campaign promo.

[seemslikeadream]

17. There is a thread somewhere in LBN

that mentions the unit and town.

[goclark]

20. Sick sick sick

I believe this is just the tip of the ice berg.
Where are their commanding officers?
How could they have gotten away with this without notice by their superiors?
Sad to say but BushCo secretly would like this kind of behavior. Their words and deeds have encouraged such behavior.
Don't get me wrong, these people are the enemy but there are rules of engagement that MUST be followed.
These soldiers are an insult to our country and an insult to their fellow soldiers.

[Snazzy]

32. see Baltimore Sun article--local paper for them

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[Wilber_Stool]

21. In the Middle East

humiliation is a fate worst than death. To be humiliated by a woman, unthinkable. That's how you make a suicide bomber.

[xultar]

23. You are so right! n/t

[SodoffBush]

25. Has she been interviewed yet?

Who is she?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. ONE of them works in a prison in VIrginia

I'll bet prison inmates start contacting advocacy groups and reporting his behavior as a guard here now.

The scariest aspect of this is that these troops will come home and be on OUR streets.

[Tinoire]

28. Geez. I was so disgusted I didn't even look long enough to analyze that

Thanks for pointing that out. Sick. Totally sick.

In case anyone hasn't seen the other pictures or seen the CBS broadcast, you can catch it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=109x8317

[seemslikeadream]

33. Tinoire

look at this from LBN It's getting worst!

A lot more on CACI


http://www.breakyourchains.org/surveillance_whores.htm
Many links on CACI in the context of Homeland Security and spying on Americans.

http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2001/01may/may01bushcc.html
Richard Armitage was on CACI's board of directors.

http://digitalwarfighter.com/article.php?story=20040327130556782
Article on military outsourcing to private security companies, with particular reference to CACI and Dyncorp.

CACI hiring interrogators in Afghanistan


March-April 2004 International & Metro DC Edition - Defense Systems and Intelligence Careers- page 25

80871 - Interrogators - Afghanistan
CACI, International - Kandahar, Afghanistan
Clearance: Clearance Required
Description: Conducts interrogations of detainees. When not employed as interrogators
and producing reports, individuals will assist in the HUMINT reporting system
maintenance to include Brigade Black/White/Gray list, support screening operations
and conducts analysis or liaison to support interrogation operations. All actions will be
managed by the Senior CI Agent. Individuals must be trained interrogators with at least 5
years of experience in interrogation.
www.intelligencecareers.com/magazine/ edition-international/dsic_pg25.pdf

note: sorry about the link, can't seem to get it to transfer.
It's the top link on this Google search page
http://www.google.com/search?q=afghanistan+caci%2C+inc&hl=en&lr=&ie=UT...

-----


March 8, 2004

>snip<
Human Rights Watch is also concerned about the treatment of those arrested.

"The United States is setting a terrible example in Afghanistan on detention practices," said Brad Adams, executive director of the organisation's Asia division.

"Civilians are being held in a legal black hole with no tribunals, no legal counsel, no family visits and no basic legal protections."

The US holds detainees at its Bagram, Kandahar, Jalalabad and Asadabad bases, where there have been complaints of their being severely beaten, doused with cold water, forced to stay awake or made to stand or kneel in painful positions for long periods.

"There is compelling evidence suggesting that US personnel have committed acts against detainees amounting to torture or cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment," Mr Adams said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1164276,00.html
-----

January 10, 2004

>snip<
Worldwide, the experiment is becoming the norm. It has been estimated that at least 15,000 people are being held without trial under the justification of the "war on terrorism". They include more than 3,000 detained in Iraq after the war, of whom at least 1,000 are still in detention; an estimated further 1,000 to 3,000 detained at Bagram airbase in Afghanistan; and an unknown number being held on the British territory of Diego Garcia.

Bagram is a CIA interrogation centre, practising "stress and duress" or "torture lite". An investigation has reportedly begun there after the deaths of two prisoners in suspicious circumstances. US personnel stationed at Bagram have described the regular practice of sensory deprivation and sleep starvation, as well as incidents of throwing prisoners against walls while hooded.

Ironically, such revelations have surfaced not through any desire to expose human rights abuses, but in order to justify describing such treatment as "torture lite". Meanwhile, three US soldiers were discharged this week for beating and harassing Iraqi prisoners of war, and there are reports that British troops beat eight young Iraqis, one of whom died in custody as a result.
http://strike-free.net/dead_list/popup/prison.htm
-----


November 30, 2003

U.S. Won't Release Results of Bagram Investigation

Remember the two Afghans who died mysteriously while in U.S. custoday at Bagram Air Force base in Afganistan? Their deaths were ruled homicides, caused by blunt force injuries. The U.S. promised an investigation. Turns out, they won't tell us what they found.
>snip<

U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Bryan Hilferty said in Bagram on Saturday, "I accept that people under custody died here. I deny that they were mistreated."
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/004526.html
-----


March 31, 2003
>snip<
He must start with prisoners from America's "war on terrorism." Brutal conditions have been reported in the U.S. prison at the Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan. Prisoners are forced to sit or kneel naked for hours while being questioned. They are hooded, doused with ice water, hung from the ceiling by chains, deprived of sleep, forced to stand for long periods, and are the target of humiliating verbal abuse by women soldiers.

According to The Wall Street Journal, one U.S. intelligence official acknowledged they might authorize a "little bit of smacky-face" during interrogations. Maybe sometimes more. In December, two prisoners at the U.S. Bagram prison died of beatings. Though the military coroner ruled both as homicides, no charges have been brought.

One dare not imagine the fate of those we turn over for questioning by countries we know use "real torture."

Conditions at our military prisons cannot be verified because the Bush administration has said international law does not apply to these prisoners. We may be waging a "war on terrorism," but according to the administration, they are not "prisoners of war" and have no rights under the Geneva Convention. Thus, despite requests from human-rights groups, no agency like the Red Cross is allowed into Bagram.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0331-06.htm
-----

December 27, 2002
The CIA has used "stress and duress" techniques on al-Qaida suspects held at secret overseas detention centres, as well as contracting out their interrogation to foreign intelligence agencies known to routinely use torture, said a report published yesterday.
>snip<

Earlier this month, officials said they would launch a criminal inquiry into the death of two prisoners at Bagram. One reportedly died of a heart attack, the other of a pulmonary embolism.

US laws apparently do not apply at the centres, where CIA agents oversee - or take part in - the interrogations. While the US publicly denounces torture, the Post says each of the 10 serving national security officials interviewed by the paper defended the use of violence against captives.

"If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," an official who has supervised the capture of suspects told the newspaper. "I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/cia_accused_of_torture_at_bagram_base.htm

starroute (1000+ posts) Fri Apr-30-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #5

69. CACI, Titan, and BBV

Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 11:28 AM by starroute
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0308/S00283.htm

This is a page with various links on the ITAA and its links to The Election Center and R. Doug Lewis -- all names that will be familiar to people who have been following Bev's investigations. As I recall, the ITAA Enterprise Solutions Division has acted as a sort of lobbying agency for electronic voting.

The ITAA Enterprise Solutions Division Board of Directors -- which is top-heavy with government contractors -- includes both "Mr. L. Kenneth Johnson President CACI International Inc." and "Mr. Kenneth Touloumes VP, Business Development Titan Corporation."

[Tinoire]

36. I was JUST about to bring them and Titan Corp. up!

Thank you for beating me to it! :)

and THANK you for all this additional information.

I was just talking to a retired Air Force Master Sergeant. We both agree big time, there's a cover-up here.

Never has the US military been so eager to throw 6 people to the wolves after whisking away 17 others and laying claim to "plausible deniability" for civilian guard & intel people contracted.

We had contracted killers last month. We now have contracted torturers.

and in the LBN thread I mentioned earlier, people should check out their stock! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x520049

[seemslikeadream]

38. from starroute in LBN

And a couple of items on Titan"
Posted by starroute
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15985
Iraq: A Corporate Gold Mine

"Back in California, two San Diego companies were hired for more secretive operations before the war: Titan corporation was recruiting Kurdish spies and translators while its neighbor, Science Applications International Corporation, was hired to run a government of Iraqis in exile.

"The wholesale privatization of the U.S. military is not surprising given that the three bureaucrats Bush hired to run the Army, Navy and Air Force when he became president in 2000 were all plucked from corporate America: Gordon England of General Dynamics was appointed secretary of the Navy, James Roche of Northrop Grumman was appointed Air Force secretary, and Thomas White of Enron was appointed secretary of the Army.

"Although all three men have resigned in the last 12 months, the two former military men recruited to run Iraq, Jay Garner and Paul Bremer, were chief executives of consulting companies to the multinationals – SY Technologies and Marsh McLellan. SY helps design missiles while Marsh advises companies in crisis."


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3117.htm
Carving Up The New Iraq

"James Woolsey: A long-time supporter of war on Iraq and PNAC and Jinsa member, the former director of the CIA has been named as the likely minister of information in the new Iraq. His business interests have included: the arms company British Aerospace; the Titan Corporation, which provides military interpreters and DynCorp, which provides bodyguards for Hamid Karzai, the Afghani president and has installed a police force monitoring service in Bosnia."


I'm starting to think that the fact that the same corporations show up in BBV as in these Iraq stories is no coincidence. (Note the mention of SAIC in the Alternet story.) This whole business of privitization of military functions potentially dwarfs all the other misdeeds of the Bush administration and will threaten the very heart of our democracy long after Bush is gone.

[Tinoire]

42. No coincidence. The name of this game is Profits for Carlyle

Profits for the Rich

and it has been from the beginning




THANK YOU FOR YOUR POSTS! I have to go now. Talk to you soon

[redqueen]

47. Beautiful pic!!!!

Thanks for posting that. :)

Nice to see people that realize what the con is. Even better that it's Veterans!

[Triple H]

29. You're right.

And it's very disgusting/disturbing/sick.

[Imperialism Inc.]

34. Here are the thumbs up shots.

The last is the only questionable one. Probably right, blowing balls off on that one.

[Tinoire]

40. The scariest part... for us... these same sickos are running US prisons

The Army Reserve unit based near here - whose service in Iraq made many of its members hometown heroes - had boasted six months ago of its credentials for a new security assignment at a prison west of Baghdad.

"We are relying heavily on our soldiers with correctional experience," said their newsletter, published in the local newspaper. "The regular Army can't touch us with experience."

But months later, the prison detail was disgraced in news reports across the world.

The Army said yesterday that 14 of the 17 soldiers implicated in an investigation of abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison are from the 372nd. They face either criminal or administrative charges.

To the proud reservists and their families, the publication of the allegations - that Iraqi prisoners were tormented and humiliated - was like opening a dark, musty room that had long ago been sealed off.

<snip>

"Prisoners were forced to live in damp cool cells," says an entry said to be from January. "MI has also instructed us to place prisoners in an isolation cell with little or no clothes. No toilet or running water, no ventilation or window for as much as three days."

<snip>

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.md.soldier30apr30,0,160127.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Sick. Sad. There's a cover-up here. These guys are scape goats- guilty-as-hell scapegoats but scapegoats nonetheless.

[sendero]

45. Ya know.....

... this all makes me sad and angry and ashamed for our country.

But... I've never fought in combat. I've never been put under that kind of stress. I like to think I am a good person, and that I'd never do anything that would later bring me shame or regret.

But on some level, I believe the stress of war makes people lose their balance and do things that are wrong and that they would not normally do. That is not an excuse, but it is a mitigating factor. While this is bad, I don't view psychological mistreatment the same as I would physical violence or actual torture.

I'm not trying to defend these folks necessarily, I'm trying to add a wee bit of balance to this discussion. The folks involved deserve punishment, not necessarily eternal villification. If I were the Grand Wazoo, part of their punishment would be a personal one-on-one apology to the victims.

On some level, I'm a lot angrier at the politicians who put them into this pointless situation than I am at them.

[chookie]

52. This behavior is NOT inevitable

You are being very generous -- too generous -- to try to put yourself into their boots and try to imagine yourself snapping and pulling the same sort of sadistic shit.

But this is not ordinary behavior, or acceptable behavior -- it is pathological, and their pathology well pre-dates this war, and this incident.

I betcha, if you and I were there, in the same identical situation, it would not even enter our minds to pose POWs to simulate sex acts. Or make them stand on boxes, believing they are attached to electrodes.

I saw a documentary on My Lai some years back, interviews we guys who were there. Some were scarred forever by what they had done, absolutely shattered. But one guy was interview who had refused to participate. He smiled and said -- I KNEW it was wrong, and I refused. I told them they could shoot me if they wanted, but I would not join them in what they were doing.

"We're supposed to believe that these are just a few rotten apples, that the overwhelming majority of U.S. occupation troops are regular Boy Scouts, busy building schools and helping little old ladies cross streets. To which one can only reply: Baloney!
-snip-
(Frederick's lawyer says)"The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you're helping the CIA, for God's sake, when you're from a small town in Virginia, that's intoxicating. And so, good guys sometimes do things believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause. ... And helping people they view as important."

Okay, let's see if I get this straight: the inhabitants of small towns in Virginia are entirely bereft of any moral sensibility. Rural life, we are supposed to believe, leads to a blatant disregard for human dignity and decency. Such rubes as Sgt. Frederick are so easily intoxicated by power, or proximity to it, that they cannot contain their inherent animality, and cannot be held responsible for their actions – any more than a cougar can be accused of murder for hunting its prey.
from
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/

[sendero]

62. I don't recall...

.... saying anything about Virginia.

And I said they should be punished, including a personal apology. So your little closing diatribe is railing against a fictional post as far as I can tell.

[chookie]

76. Um, I'm not Justin Raimondo

Please note that the "closing diatribe" is not mine, and that I included this excerpt and link to original article because it includes a comment about how the lawyer is attempting to use the "ignorant rural rube" defense to explain the madness -- which doesn't fly with Mr Raimondo or me. No one is saying you offended the state of Virginia, or anything bad. Read my post again -- I think you should be pleased or even flattered that I, on faith, consider it highly unlikely that you would be capable of such henious behavior. :)

Pax, deseo :hug: -- all I was saying is that I don't think this sort of behavior is inevitable, and that you mustn't assume you would behave the same debauched way as these thugs did even in identical circumstances.

A lot of people are asking the same question you are raising in this -- trying to understand how these things can happen, and wondering if they themselves are capable of such a thing.

I believe that this sort of behavior is not inevitable. Lots of people are walking around with very strong moral and ethical codes who would never engage in this sort of monstrous behavior.

As far as the sociological studies cited, the participants in the torture experiments who who most likely to go along with the instructions to painfully shock or kill the "subject" closely correlate to the authoritarian personality type. It may be "normal" for authoritarian types to do this sort of thing, but not normal for the rest of us, thank heavens.

[kiahzero]

63. Sociology says that it's almost inevitable

Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment - put people in a dehumanizing situation, and they very quickly adapt to act that way.

It's a sad reflection on the nature of humanity.

[SharonAnn]

87. That's why discipline and officer leadership is so important.

eom

[thebigidea]

56. phew...

"While this is bad, I don't view psychological mistreatment the same as I would physical violence or actual torture."

So you didn't actually READ any of these articles or watch the 60 Minutes II report?

They were setting dogs on people. Beatings. Rape.

Does that count as "actual torture"?

There are pictures of the rape, apparently. Do you need to see those before getting upset?

[sendero]

60. I was referring...

... to the specific acts depicted in the photos. No, I did not go read all of the articles.

I did not say I was not upset. I stand by the statement you quoted.

[thebigidea]

61. You might want to read them before making claims about the lack of torture

would a one-on-one apology to the teenager that was raped suffice, ya think?

Just adding some balance.

And yes, eternal villification for the scum involved isn't really too much to ask.

[sendero]

67. That was...

... (the apology) in addition to whatever punishment the military justice system would provide.

You may have read a lot more about this, but you don't seem to have the comprehension to read my simple post.

Sorry an alternative opinion got your corflakes all wet.

[thebigidea]

71. Its not a matter of reading comprehension

You're advocating rapists and torturers saying "sorry."

If you were raped, abused, and laughed at while imprisoned, would you REALLY want the people that did it to show their face and say "sorry" to you?

Honestly, now?

And how would you respond?

"Oh, gee, that's ok. These things happen. War gets to us sometimes, ya know? Its alright. Listen, you guys have a standing invitation to come on over to my place whenever you want, my wife would love to serve you some of her famous pastries. That whole rape and torture thing? Think nothing of it. Your apology has healed my wounds, if not my scarred rectum."

I think you need to read the stories and then reread your post and see if maybe your own cornflakes aren't a tad soggy.

[sendero]

73. Get a grip....

...I told you I was only aware of the stuff I saw in the pictures. You either cannot read, or you are determined to make a straw man of my post to attack.

Go jump in the fucking lake, I'm done with you.

[thebigidea]

74. Coming from the person who can't be bothered to read the articles...

I'M the one who can't read?

Coming from the person who suggested an apology from the war criminals, I'm the one who needs to get a grip?

See you in the lake.

[rumguy]

46. girls will be girls

and boys will be boys

[redqueen]

55. And someday humans will evolve, or we'll kill each other off

n/t

[Tinoire]

65. Bad news. Please read this. From the Arab world. Women.

((with thanks to Chookie in post 53))

<snip>

The real facts are that there is report after report of US abuses; on the internet, in the back pages of our newspapers, in personal accounts that with a little luck will now make their way to mainstream press. This is not an isolated few – this is business as usual for the US military and their collaborating band of thugs in Iraq. Is it any wonder that bodies of US soldiers who fall into Iraqi hands are mutilated and displayed?

The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS (Jihad Unspun). We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to “loose” Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq’s religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner “cooperation” by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along.

The Arab world is outrage. The Muslim Ummah is outraged. Iraqis are outraged and so are people of conscience everywhere. I pity the next soldiers that fall into Resistance hands. And contrary to its belief – America can be defeated and most likely will be defeated and dangled at the end of its own pathetic rope for all the world to see.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

[HFishbine]

70. The only thing about these "porn sites"

is the lack of a link or URL. Should be easy enough to name the sites where these photos supposedly appeared if not cull the actual pictures.

[Tinoire]

81. My friend... You do the googling for that one

Knowing a little about sick porn on the internet, I do not want to wade through the depths of that garbage to hunt for these. You do realize these are not going to be found on mainstream porn sites but only the sickest ones, the same ones where you find snuff films?
Those sites require credit card info, logons--- oh no. Not me, not in this sick world.

Next thing you know Ashcroft is at your door, hauling off your computer & going after you for having visited snuff sites...

Yikes no. Not me...

[blindpig]

69. question

These rentaspooks who were running the show at this prison, any connections to the School of the Americas?

[DoYouEverWonder]

80. Sure looks like a rifle would fit

just right, with the way she's holding her hands.

I also wonder what she was using that cigarette for, other than destroying her own lungs?

[seabeyond]

89. i have yet to hear proof those rape pictures

have been debunked as all the guys are telling me they have been debunked. is it on truthout or any of those sites that lets us know if it is a lie, and unless you have proof it is a lie, what is the motivation for such strong language that this isnt true

is it beyond us that they can do this to man, but nah wont rape a woman. they rape their fellow soldier, ........these woman are nothing to the americans, this is exactly what rape is, to have power over. feeding ground for it when there isnt leadership and strong enforcement to not allow,. look at colorado airforce, look at history. we know leadership isnt there

where is the proof these pictures arent real

[Must_B_Free]

91. In my recollection I don't recall any

All I remember is someone saying it was debunked. It seemed like a long time ago.

Can someone use the search function and find the original occurrence of this in the archives?

[CHIMO]

90. Hard

To accept when you are a paternal society.