About those torture photos,

[Minstrel Boy]

which statement best represents your reaction?

[rucky]

1. I'd like to think these are isolated incidents

because I want to continue to support the troops.

[Pillowbiter]

2. I'm not so sure they're isolated

For a while there have been videos of American troops shooting wounded Iraqi soldiers lying on the ground, and always to a chorus of "Whoooo!" afterward like they were in some turkey shoot.

PB

[ieoeja]

3. I should have probably voted other.

But the first looks really, really fake. While the last looks like stock footage.

The rest, for the most part, appear to be hooded men being deloused or the like.

[thebigidea]

7. the best way to delouse an Iraqi prisoner is, after all -

to put his mouth on or around the genitalia of another prisoner. This helps the lice fall gently to the ground.

Well, it would take a scientist to explain properly.

[Tinoire]

8. Did you see the 60 minutes segment?

They interviewed a Staff Sergeant up on charges (the one who pleaded that he was never trained in the rules of the Geneva Conventions- which is a bald-faced lie because EVERYONE goes through that mandatory training in Basic and signs a paper that they received it)- he corraborated it all.

Also, the photos were turned in by a US Army soldier with a conscience:

When the abuse charges were first announced, U.S. military officials declined to provide details about the evidence. But on Wednesday, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photo- graphs.

"That soldier said, 'There are some things going on here that I can't live with,' "Kimmitt said.

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/04/29/a2.nat.warabuse4.0429.html

6 people (from a prison run by 7 people) are being court-martialled.

The Nazi Brigadier-General in charge will get a "written reprimand" (:eyes:) but I will bet you that public fury will net her a much harsher punishment.

In March, the U.S. Army announced that six members of the 800th Military Police Brigade faced court martial for allegedly abusing about 20 prisoners at Abu Ghraib. The charges included dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another person.

In addition to those criminal charges, the military has recommended disciplinary action against seven U.S. officers who helped run the prison, including Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, the commander of the 800th Brigade, a senior military official said Wednesday in Baghdad.

The investigation recommended administrative action against several of the commanders, which could include punishments up to relieving them of their commands, said the official, speaking on condition on anonymity.

When the abuse charges were first announced, U.S. military officials declined to provide details about the evidence. But on Wednesday, at a news briefing in Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs.

"That soldier said, 'There are some things going on here that I can't live with,"' said Kimmitt, who also confirmed that CBS had obtained the photographs.

<snip>

http://www.local6.com/news/3250508/detail.html

They're not fakes. They're damn real photos of real men having really despicable things done to them by really despicable representatives of a really despicable government.


Hooded men being deloused? Naw... Halliburton was kind enough to provide showers for that.

[cjbuchanan]

4. I think they are isolated

however, I think they are criminal actions that need to be ended right away.

[Canadian_moderate]

6. I agree

Not all soldiers are pigs such as these.

I do believe that quite a few of these people were brainwashed into believing that they are avenging 9-11.

I support the coalition (UN) in Afghanistan, but I'm against the war in Iraq. If the resources had been put into Afghanistan, bin Laden would have been toast by now.

I believe in fighting terrorism, but the war in Iraq is a farce. It has very little to do with the war on terror.

[DrWeird]

5. Who voted for "fakes"?

Please explain yourselves.

[TN al]

10. I voted for fakes...

...And I want to document that right now so that when they are exposed I can say I told you so.

I claim that they are fakes based on my experience in the army and my faith that a fellow soldier would not do what is depicted in these photos.

By claiming them as fakes I claim that the photos are staged or photo shopped or faked in some other way that I am not aware of. I am saddened by the gullibility of my fellow DUers ready to jump on any atrocity, real or imagined, by a member of the armed forces because their hatred for * and his policies has blinded them and made them unable to distinguish between a megalomaniacal dictator and his tools.

When these photos are proven to be fakes I expect every DUer who voted for anything else to either start a thread or contribute to one in which they apologize for their bandwagon mentality. Let me rephrase that. I expect that they should but i also expect that they won't. Cowardice shows itself in many different ways. If they are proven to be genuine, which they won't, I will do the same.

[sendero]

13. And when they are proven to be real...

.... I want the same from you.

What possible reason would a soldier in Iraq have to fake something like this?

[Misunderestimator]

15. "What possible reason would a soldier in Iraq have to fake

something like that?"... bears repeating. Please theorize on that. I'm sure that CBS did more research than any of us here have the resources to do. I'd say that odds are better on these NOT being fakes, as sad as that is.

Even imagining that these are fakes... Isn't it still appalling to you to imagine an American soldier putting in the time to do SUCH terrific photo-shopping with such a horrific subject?

[TN al]

18. I've heard since the posts that the possibility exists...

...that these were not soldiers but contractors. Let's let the entire story play out before wrecklessly pointing fingers.

[htuttle]

19. The Pentagon has already stated there were 6 soldiers and 1 contractor

The contractor is getting away scot-free since the Pentagon doesn't have jurisdiction over him. The soldiers are getting charged.

[TN al]

17. That is what I said...

...Perhaps you should acquire the habit of reading an entire post before you reply to it.

[htuttle]

14. If they are fake, why is the military charging 6 of them with crimes?

Also, where does one find a copy of Photoshop in Iraq nowdays?

[kiahzero]

16. Right....

I guess "fellow soldiers" aren't capable of taking "VCS" for half-helicopter rides, either?

:eyes:

[kiahzero]

20. Well, the U.S. seems to disagree with you

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54540-2004Apr29.html
On Thursday, U.S. officials confirmed that the images were authentic and said they had taken several steps to stop the mistreatment of prisoners.

Guess these officials are just biased Bush-haters, right?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

24. i will gladly apologize if the photos are proven to be fake.

i think there is a very slim chance for that though. CBS and the charges brought against the soldiers say otherwise. based on your experience in the army have you seen soldiers charged for such heinous crimes based on flimsy evidence?

maybe these soldiers have already admitted to what they did?

so being as how they will probably never be proven fake, when do you get to apologize? and how are you sure they won't be proven genuine? it seems you have already made up your mind so why are you even worried about their authenticity?

if is funny you bring cowardice into this, cowardice to me is failing to see what is really going on for fear that it will due harm to your world view.

[TN al]

27. HMMMM you are number 24 and you posted at 9:53...

...Did you see reply number 22 posted at 9:18. Perhaps then you could have saved some of your acidity. Interesting comment on doing harm to your world view. I independently researched the topic and followed through with what I said I would do. You only needed to scroll further and could have saved yourself from being the poster boy for your stated definition of cowardice.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

28. I am sorry.

i must have been writing the post at the same time you were posting the post you just referred to. i may have been distracted for a bit and sat back down and replied without checking the lates developements in the thead. i am sorry. would you like me to edit my previous post?

maybe if you had refrained from making remarks like "If they are proven to be genuine, which they won't, I will do the same" i wouldn't have responded in the manner that i did. saying that you "know" something without any proof is not very conducive to getting to the truth.

[TN al]

29. Leave your post up...

...otherwise mine won't make sense.

I caught your post before you edited it and I want to respond to the unedited version. Why would you assume I am reasonable. I have witnessed an election stolen and the most powerful country in the world turned into a fascist paradise and all of this accepted because too many people think that "reasonable" people would never do that. I am not reasonable I am full of venom and bile and ready to spew it upon any right winger that is foolish enough to get in my way. At times I get so full of it that it just comes out on its own. I get angry at people who are too willing to accept anything bad said about our soldiers. This is not to defend the actions of these 6 sick soldiers. I am saying the following as one of you now so please accept the thought that when I see a poll such as this I can see why the other side claims we hate the military. I don't believe any of you hate the military but why present ourselves in a light that can be construed in that manner. As a veteran I can tell you these soldiers do not represent what the American soldier is about and as a DUer I can tell you that we are going to need the military on our side when the revolution comes.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

30. it's cool.

of course i realise that most troops are trying their best to have a postive effect on the situation. i tend to have no patience for those who would deny the truth about war and the situations it puts humans in. These images are detrimental to "winning the hearts and minds". it is the iraqi's perception of the U.S. that is most important. we can have the best intentions in the world, but if it is not percieved that why by the people it matters to, then all is lost.

I thank you for you service to our country and I thank those who serve now in Iraq. Their job is not an easy one especially when we have such incompetence at high levels. I am never one to really speak out against the actions/mistakes of troops but blatant misbehaviour like this is a different story. So again, i am sorry if i come of like an ass, but keep in mind we have quite a few visitors on this board who will blindly beleive what ever makes things seem 'ok'.

[Minstrel Boy]

9. Seeing these "trophy photos" reminded me of Somalia, and

Shidane Arone.



Canadians should remember the name.

He was a Somali youth, tortured to death by "peacekeepers" of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, who believed him to be a thief stealing camp supplies. His last words were "Canada, Canada."

There was a military cover-up, but when the truth emerged it scandalized the country. Lower-ranked perpetrators went to prison, and the Airborne was disbanded.

CBC archives here on the "Somalia Affair":

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-723/conflict_war/somalia/

I believe Arone's story had an added poignancy because we came to learn his name, and have never forgotten it.

Americans need to learn some names.

[Iceburg]

11. The public inquiry brought this behaviour to the nations attention

and resulted in the total discharge of the airborne division. Of course the chickehawks in Canada thought disbanding the whole division was extreme -- "hey it was just a few bad apples" ... to me it did not go far enough, the whole orchard was rotten.

[kiahzero]

12. "They're awful, but we still need to finish our job"

International law mandates no less.

International law also mandates that the "soldiers" in these photos get a trial, and be convicted, of all sorts of violations.

[TX-RAT]

21. Did not vote

If the pictures are real, all involved should be charged with war crimes. There is no excuse for that kind of treatment.

[TN al]

22. After spending the morning defending soldiers...

...it appears I may have been mistaken. Further investigation has revealed to me that these are reserve soldiers or guard soldiers along with a contractor and I apologize for my misguided attempts to defy the clearly superior intellect that inhabits DU.

I would like to suggest a different tact in attacking this story however. I think we should attack the avaricious hunger of * and the neocons for world domination. This hunger has required them to activate the national guard and enlisted reserve and at the risk of stirring up another hornets nest some of these soldiers are just not the same as the regular army. Argue all that you want but the discipline in some of these units is not the same.

Interesting that one of the first land grabs the neocons made was for Iraq. Having to start in Afghanistan with no oil probably really pissed them off. The neocons learned from the failure of Operation Barbarossa. Why is it that Historical parallels from the neocons to the Nazis are so readily available. You don't think they are using the same playbook do you. Was the anti-French sentiment whipped up by the neocons their version of the Von Schlieffen Plan?

Anyway I digress. I am sorry that I spoke harshly to my fellow DUers in my defense of these sick soldiers.

[silverpatronus]

23. actually...

afghanistan was part of the plan. pipelines and all that...

[htuttle]

25. That part of the plan turned out poorly, however

They had hoped for large oil and natural gas deposits in the Caspian region (particularly North of Afghanistan).

As pointed out by a number of industry analysts, however, while the Caspian has some gas, the oil in the Caspian is found primarily in smaller, unconnected deposits (requiring many separate unprofitable wells), and is 'sour' like most of the Russian oil (ie. it's full of sulfur that needs to be processed out before it can be properly refined -- this costs money to do, obviously).

In other words, the Caspian Oil Adventure was pretty much a bust, except for Iran and China, who are well placed to take advantage of the natural gas produced (it's very difficult to transport natural gas).

[diamond14]

32. thanks TN al, it takes a big person to apologize....and this is a tough

board... your acknowledgement shows that you are an honest Patriot, and I welcome you to DU....

most of us want to honor OUR military and believe that OUR soldiers would NEVER even think of committing war crimes like this...my father fought in WWII, my Uncle in Korea, my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam, and my nephew is currently serving in Iraq...

bush*'s unjust war is destroying OUR military....and the C.I.N.C. is THE person who sets the 'tone' for his own personal avenging crusade....these war crimes do not surprise me....symptoms of the bigger LIES that bush* perpetrated on us, and for which, our soldiers bear the full weight...

my commendations go to the BRAVE American Soldiers who exposed this criminal action....may more STAND UP soon....

it's time to stop bush*'s folly and BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW !!!

[supernova]

26. Criminal, Criminal.... but not surprised

These were criminal acts by anyone's definition, except maybe Joseph Mengele's. And the soldiers who perpetrated them should be prosecuted and their careers destroyed.

Having said that, we americans are not immune from acting like animals ourselves. Frankly I'm always surprised when we are shocked! Shocked! that we could engage in the same behaviour we love to rake other countries over the coals about.... sanctions and all.

[maggrwaggr]

31. all I know is Ann Coulter would be proud and probably

has those pictures as her new screensavers.