Did anyone watch 60 minutes tonight

[sallyseven]

There was a segment on Iraq and how war prisoners were being treated. I was appalled. We are torturing them. By the time bushco gets through the entire middle east will hate our guts. I am dumbfounded. Stripping them naked and taking pictures of them and ridiculing them Attaching wires to them and making them stand on boxes. These guys and women are up for court marshals. One is a general and one that they put in charge was a former correction officer.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. This is horrible. America is a GREAT nation and should not....

be showing this type of treatment to a world that has historically looked to us for leadership.

Bush has decimated America and it's reputation!

:mad:

[gate of the sun]

23. I'm sorry where is the great nation?

lost somewhere in history.

[saigon68]

31. SUPPORT THE TROOPS

Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a
translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all
the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."

[gate of the sun]

38. those are horrible pictures

like I said where's the great nation?

[chelaque liberal]

36. Shouldn't be SHOWING it?

Showing it is the problem, not the fact that it was done?

[whistle]

2. It is the process of Nazi-faction....

...dehumanizing victims and perpetrators alike.:wtf:

[NYC]

3. There was actual evidence?

I didn't see the program. Was there enough evidence to bring charges?

If this was shown on American television, wouldn't it likely be shown on European and Asian television as well?

[LittleApple81]

5. Of course. Pictures in living color. And of course they will be all

over the world.
But at least WE will have seen them. Otherwise they would be all over the world and we would think there were lies.

[saigon68]

37. ACTUALLY THERE ARE MORE NOT YET RELEASED

Dan Rather referred to them last night on the show

Testicles attached to electric wires

Large German Shepherd dogs attacking Prisoners

Males prisoners forced to give each other oral sex while woman guards looked on and derided the prisoners

[Iceburg]

6. Lots of evidence -- pictures, letters, statements ....

3rd party testimony.

[RafterMan]

7. Yes

There were pictures of torture and humiliation, but that wasn't the worst of it.

The worst part was that the soldiers in the photos (male and female) were smiling and laughing as they did it.

I've felt that since we broke Iraq we should try to help stabilize it, but if this is how people are acting, there is no path to success.

[rumguy]

16. the smiling was the chilling part to me - these nice looking female

soldiers smiling at this...

sometimes it boggles the mind what people are capable of...

[RafterMan]

20. Yep.

I could understand (if not condone) a "Heart of Darkness" scenario where people tortured prisoners thinking they were acting on some kind of higher morality that necessitated such behavior. But this was beyond the pale.

These people are a bunch of degenerate ghouls. My worst imagining of Nazis pictures them as cold and heartless killers. But here are regular American soldiers treating torture like a parlor game. It's utterly disgusting.

[saigon68]

33. See above

[lumpy]

40. You can be damned sure

the pictures and video will be shown all over the world.

[Wonk]

4. Here are two other threads about this already

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=516723&mesg_id=516723

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1490772

[Wonk]

18. mp3, still pics, & vp3 video here for those who missed it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=109x8317

[AbbeyRoad]

26. That is revolting and shocking

I missed the show, but I just looked at the pictures on the other thread.

I feel physically ill and saddened. Can anyone say war crimes? I commend the person who had the conscience to expose the perpetrators.

:puke:

[calimary]

8. Well, there's a terrific way to win hearts and minds.

Dear God what have we come to?

And yes, you can take it to the bank that this will be all over the world. It'll be huge. Especially in the Arab world. But then again, bush DID say "bring 'em on," now, didn't he?

Hell is gonna be awfully crowded someday...

[alfredo]

9. Attitude flows down hill in any organization. Everyone takes

cues from the man at top. If the man at top is a cold blooded killer, those under him will follow his lead.

[justgamma]

10. Do you think

that if someone comes back and testifies about these abuses, they will be vilified for it ala JFK?

[RamboLiberal]

11. Did anyone note that the "CIA civilian spooks" and other

Alphabet agencies civilians were putting the troops up to this (not that the troops shouldn't have known better - though bet they were following orders) And while the troops are being court-martialed the civilian spooks are not charged and skating free.

[RafterMan]

12. Doesn't cut it

The troops were laughing and smiling while they tortured people.

If they're being hung out to dry, I'll bring the rope.

[RamboLiberal]

17. My point is the spooks should be brought up on charges as well

I'm not excusing those stupid grinning troops.

[RafterMan]

27. Of course you're correct

I'd didnt' mean to jump on you. I guess to my mind the spooks live in an amoral world where they try to cross the line and we try to catch them at it. So yes, they should be punished.

But seeing a bunch of "jes' plain folks" enjoying an afternoon of torture was horrifying in a way that seeing an Ollie North type coldly doing the same thing wouldn't have been. I know it'd probably be all the same to the victims, but there is something utterly diseased about this.

[alarcojon]

13. Some things that jumped out at me

First, Kimmitt said something like "don't blame 150,000 soldiers for the actions of a few". But there were only what, nine soldiers working at this prison, and there are six facing court martial. And Kimmit didn't deny that there were other such activities at other prisons - in fact he said he knew of some. It is a systemic problem.

Second, it was noted in the story that Chip Frederick hadn't even heard of the Geneva convention until after he got in trouble. We have to take a real hard look at how we train our soldiers.

[RafterMan]

14. He was a civilian prison guard

And he didn't know stacking naked men in a pyramid was wrong? Or loosing dogs on them? Or hooking up electrodes to their genitals?

There's a systemic problem, alright, but it seems the problem is general military discipline. Adding the Geneva Convention to the curriculum won't help.

[alarcojon]

21. You're right

but I certainly wasn't trying to make any excuses for any of this behavior. Still, the fact that they hadn't even heard of the GC is telling.

Unfortunately, behavior this disgusting reveals problems much deeper than how our soldiers are trained. It speaks to the military culture, yes, but also to America's perceived moral superiority in general.

[RafterMan]

29. Yeah

If only that sense of moral superiority could be backed up on the field.

I'm just crushed by this. I hated this war from the start, but I always thought the problem lay with Bush & Co. I never thought we would be betrayed by the rank an file. But it's clear that something is deeply rotten in the military to produce this kind of outrage. I hope they know enough to make a wicked example of these fools.

[berry]

30. Not only military culture.

I remember, though not well enough to name everyone, that some people were floating the idea that torture was OK when that was the only way to get info about an impending terrorist attack. I do know that one of the proponents of this was Alan Dershowitz from Harvard Law School. I think he even wrote a book about this. But surely there were others of like mind. I'm pretty sure it was discussed on the Abrams Report, and probably elsewhere. Does anyone else remember this?

This goes along with the argument that the CIA shouldn't have had restrictions placed on it after the Church Committee reports. The hawks and neo-cons want to allow hiring "unsavory" informants and assassination as one of their tools of trade. Well, this is moot, really. Even the pResident talks freely of assassination of "our" enemies. The public dialog (if such it can be called) has long since crossed over the line IMO.

Also, there was at least one case of deaths of prisoners in Afganistan that resulted from locking them into metal containers (I think like the ones used in shipping). It made me think of boxcars and Nazis. But I've not heard anything since of how that case was handled.

No wonder BushCo* was so anxious to resist the World Court, even going so far as to threaten to invade Holland--indeed passed a law to that effect--if any member of the US military was brought before the court in the Hague. They KNEW there would be atrocities. Or, if not, they were strangely prescient.

I missed "60 Minutes" tonight. I do hope I can view it--even with dial-up? Anyway, thanks for posting this. One needs to know.

It just occurred to me--contrast these laughing torturers with the much decried dancers-in-the-streets (such glee in the face of tragedy offered as proof of their depravity by all the admin spokespeople). I don't suppose, though, that even now this WH will rethink its division of the world into good v. evil, its "justification" of any means to achieve "good" ends. This is very, very bad. (Words fail me.)

[rumguy]

15. It pissed me off that general several months ago saying everything was

just dandy at the prison - they were following international standards, etc...

Like most Americans I am inclined to believe someone like that, and she sounded soooo sincere and knowledgable of the situation.

Yet, the exact opposite was happening...they had no training in international standards or any standards, and they were abusing the inmates in shameful, dehumanizing ways...

It makes me want to question every "official story" that comes out of Iraq...

[alarcojon]

22. So true

All we hear is about how hunky-dory everything is, and then stuff like this comes out.

We'll see how much play this story gets.

[JCMach1]

19. I will publish an article in the next week that details the Fallujah

situation from my source that was inside the city...

You can believe this CBS story...

It gets worse folks... this is only half the story...

[rumguy]

24. kick

[leftchick]

32. will you post the article here JCMach?

The truth needs to be spread around the world. The US is behaving like war criminals. Every instance needs to be brought to light!

[Seldona]

25. I am still in shock.

This is wrong on so many levels.

How many Iraqi's saw that and joined the resistance?

Between this story, and what is going on in Faluja, I am not sure I can take much more.

It just may be time for one of my self imposed media blackouts for a week or so.

Oh well, no sleep tonight for me.

[Th1onein]

28. They are, thank God, sending a message out with those court martials!

I keep on thinking, and seeing in my mind, again, the video of those soldiers shooting a wounded Iraqi; really, just doing target practice with him. And it turns my stomach, to remember it.

Maybe with this story this kind of abuse will stop.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the world.

God help the Iraqis.

God help us.

[rman]

35. but probably upper command will go free,

while they did know this was taking place, as did CIA etc.

[Q]

34. This is Bush's* 'crusade'...

...where the 'good guys' can do anything they want to the 'evildoers' in God's name. This is George's war and he has set the tone in terms of conquerer vs the vanquished...good vs evil.

- These are the types of crimes against humanity that were tried in Nuremberg...as were the types of war crimes CIC Bush* is committing with the intentional bombing of residential areas.

- And yes...this is exactly why the Bushies have ignored international laws from the very beginning. As was Hitler and his thugs above the law...so is the Bush* regime.

[skypilot]

39. I loved the bullshit explanation that...

...one of the reasons this all happened was because the officers were understaffed and "stretch too thin". They seemed to find the time to set up those grotesque tableaus and take pictures. Seemed they had enough down time to do this shit.