Stanford expert says Iraq spinning out of control

[Kadie]

Stanford expert says Iraq spinning out of control
Lack of security is dooming goals of U.S., he says

James Sterngold, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, April 25, 2004

When Larry Diamond left for Baghdad in January as an adviser to the U.S. occupation authority, he took all the equipment he believed he needed to help construct a hopeful new nation out of the ashes of dictatorship: the academic models he had crafted over the years as an authority on building democracies, and confidence those models would work.

But the jarring reality of Iraq, with its escalating violence and collapsing civic order, forced Diamond to look for a few new tools beyond those listed in the textbooks. When he speaks now of the models for building democratic countries, he stresses a different set of equipment, which he found in short supply: body armor, armor-plated cars, a huge military presence.

The story of Iraq, this onetime optimist believes, is a tale of missed opportunities.

"We just bungled this so badly," said Diamond, a 52-year-old senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution. "We just weren't honest with ourselves or with the American people about what was going to be needed to secure the country."

more... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/04/25/MNGFA6AT1R1.DTL

very interesting article.

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. "We" didn't bungle anything you fucking idiot.

"We just bungled this so badly," said Diamond, a 52-year-old senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution. "We just weren't honest with ourselves or with the American people about what was going to be needed to secure the country."



>>This is Bush, the habitual failure's, work.

[ugarte]

4. Yeah, I'm sick of this 'we' shit, too

The bungle was invading Iraq.

[DBoon]

12. What do you mean "we", kemosabi?

Said Tonto to the Lone Ranger, when surrounded by hostile natives.

[QC]

34. Maybe Dr. Diamond has got a frog in his pocket. n/t

[leftofthedial]

2. wait a minute!

I thought Cruella deRice was the Stanford expert.

[salin]

3. not just Stanford... but Hoover Institute at Stanford... very telling

The Hoover Institute is on the Stanford campus, and is affiliated with the U - but is a seperate, (very) conservative think-tank. I would not be surprised to see a Stanford academic (prof) writing a critique... but a Hoover Institute fellow - BIG sign... not quite but almost like PNACers suddenly becomming alarmist in their writings. Very telling, indeed.

[DBoon]

13. Yes I agree

This is clearly a sign the ruling class in this country is publicly dissenting from the current course.

For a right wing think tank to openly disagree with this presidential policy means it has gotten very obvious that policy is insane.

[ithacan]

36. wow! this guy is a republican true believer!

He's in the Reaganite spreading of freedom and democracy camp big time. For him to be saying this is really big!

[Mari333]

5. he says that so easily from a comfy chair in an office

bungled is a nice term...a military term would be called a clusterf*ck
no body armour
inadequately armoured Humvees
benefits cut to the troops
lies about how many troops were needed
Bremer closes their newspaper in Iraq
no exit strategy
lies about how much it would cost
coalition countries we bribed to go over there leaving
WMD lies, lies, lies about imminent threats
lies that 9/11 and Iraq had anything to do with each other
lies lies lies and more lies
This is a "war" that should have never happened, not ever.

Someday the truth will come out. And everyone of those people who still supports this will have to face the music.

In the meantime, I have to keep writing letters to the editor, keep pushing , keep getting interviews when I can, keep complaining and getting the word out that this war
is
a
fraud.

[oblivious]

6. Thanks for that

Interesting article, but to be honest, I'd feel like a right fool waltzing into this country with 5000 years of civilization telling them how they ought to be running their affairs. Mr Diamond may be an expert on US-style democracy, but he didn't mention how much he knew about the history, religions and cultures of the area.

[LittleApple81]

7. Excellent, realistic article. Very sad. General Shinseki was right

from the beginning. Rumsfeld has made the Iraqi tragedy so much worse.

[opihimoimoi]

9. When needing a root canal we don't go to the plumber. Rummy had an expert

in Gen Shinseki but did he listen? Oh No, he had to listen to "voices" of wisdom, himself. Thus he made the decision to go with 135 000 instead of the 450 000 Shinseki wanted. Bad move by an unqualified Dummy.

[markses]

10. Oh FUCK General Shinseki

He's better because he came up with a more functional scheme of colonial domination? Fuck him. He's as much a fuckwad as the rest of them, if a bit smarter.

[LittleApple81]

11. I agree. But this mess would have been less detrimental to the

Iraqis if we could have provided them with security, at least.

[markses]

16. This is true

Forgive me for not cheering a bandit who robs one with a smile and handshake, however. At least is hard to swallow in cases of general depravity.

[Jacobin]

33. Our definition of "security" equals effective repression of

Iraq. Not sure how that is doing them a favor.

Apparently, they want their country back and for the invaders to leave.

[Kanary]

24. You're saying the US should have shown MORE force?

I'm surprised, opi.

I really am.

Kanary

[opihimoimoi]

25. Where did I say that Kanary?

Shinseki said it and it was an answer to a question by his boss. You cannot blame him for this mess.

The rationale is if you have an over powering force, conflict and hostilities would be at a minimum. By having a smaller force to keep the peace, you get what we see on TV. That is what Shinseki was saying.

[Kanary]

26. I got that impression from this quote:

" Rummy had an expert in Gen Shinseki but did he listen? Oh No, he had to listen to "voices" of wisdom, himself. Thus he made the decision to go with 135 000 instead of the 450 000 Shinseki wanted. Bad move by an unqualified Dummy."

Sounds like you agreed with that position.

Kanary

[opihimoimoi]

32. Close but no cigars, Bad move in not listening to the expert

who called for the higher number.

[Hubert Flottz]

35. The GOPers should be worried about recreating democracy......

in the USA!

"When Larry Diamond left for Baghdad in January as an adviser to the U.S. occupation authority, he took all the equipment he believed he needed to help construct a hopeful new nation out of the ashes of dictatorship: the academic models he had crafted over the years as an authority on building democracies, and confidence those models would work."

Looks like the Iraqis don't trust Dibold any better than we do! We need the UN to look in to the shit in Florida and to keep an eye on this election coming up in November! In Gwad we may trust, but in the GOP we damned sure shouldn't! Never forget the last election was won(stolen)by a single CROOKED vote! Bush was selected 4 to 5 by a duck hunting quack!

[opihimoimoi]

43. Yup, them Iraqis look at us and we wonder why they hesitate to

embrace our brand of Democracy..... they take one look at Bush and his people up close and realize,, "Oh oh, these guys are into fake turkeys? Fake Photo Ops?" "Could it be their Govt is fake too?"

and the quacks shot 746585762 ducks out of the "can". How sick these sickos can get is a mystery to me man. Go figure.

[mhr]

28. You Mean That Higher Power That * Listens To

Guess this proves that the higher power really doesn't answer individual prayers. In other words man is left to his own devices to figure it out.

Too bad for the Fundies that this model does not fit their Protestant world view.

Oh Well!

[markses]

8. A nice way of saying we need a bloodbath before we impose control

The man is quite honest, actually. He is outlining a program for establishing a monopoly on violence, and asserting that such a monopoly is a precondition for a "democratic" state. It is about as honest as purveyors of empire get: first you kill everyone who disagrees, then you establish a phony government where "disagreement" is free. Needless to say, the disagreement that is allowed is not really disagreement at all, at least with respect to the colonial power.

[Tellurian]

14. Oh, you mean like the same thing that is happening here. right? n/t

[markses]

15. Not quite

It happened here quite a long time ago.

[Tellurian]

18. Never like this...

[markses]

19. The function was the same

The Whiskey Rebellion, Shay's Rebellion, the numerous attempts to opt out of the union (including, of course, the American Civil War), the numerous attacks on strikers throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries: each of these enforced a state monopoly on violence, and constituted the limits of dissent in the US republic. The situation of imperial powers is of course much different, but there are consistencies.

[Tellurian]

20. ok, I'll let you have that one...:)

[Aidoneus]

29. perceptive as per usual

It is dismaying to see it finding such unexamined agreement above.

[oblivious]

17. General Zinni is the one he should have listened to.

"Attacking Iraq now will cause a lot of problems. I think the debate right now that's going on is very healthy. If you ask me my opinion, Gen. Scowcroft, Gen. Powell, Gen. Schwarzkopf, Gen. Zinni, maybe all see this the same way. It might be interesting to wonder why all the generals see it the same way, and all those that never fired a shot in anger and really hell-bent to go to war see it a different way. That's usually the way it is in history."
- General Anthony Zinni, the Marine Corps commander and former chief of the Central Command

That guy always sounds so damn sensible when he talks. Naturally he was ignored.

[jean]

21. bush should have listened to poppy instead of the other father - at least

poppy had some distaste for being nailed getting the US into another quagmire. Dim son bungles, kills and maims everything he touches.

[Cleita]

22. Thanks for posting this.

It is a very interesting article.

[NJCher]

23. naivete

The American policies basically encouraged Iraqis to stand up -- only to face the threat of being mowed down for doing so, he said.


Oh yeah, I think "we" did that once before. History has a way of repeating itself, especially with the thugs we have running the U.S. government.

After reading this piece, I felt sad for this guy and not just him, either--all the others, including the Iraqis, who are being led on a fool's errand thinking there would ever be a democracy there. Instead, "democracy" is nothing but the latest lie by bushco to cover their asses in the greatest fiasco ever. There will never, ever be a democracy there as long as there is a drop of oil from which even one thin dime can be made by bush's oil buddies.

It amazes me how naive people are. Even if I hadn't read one word of DU over the past 3 1/2 years, I wouldn't believe bush and his democracy BS.

And Professor Diamond was against the war!

Another one who surprises me with his naivete is Bob Woodward. Woodward actually thinks bush makes decisions, LOL. Oh man.

So it all adds up to me as incredible--incredible how these people can't put 2 +2 together.


Cher

[Zorra]

27. How naive. The longer the war goes on,

the more money the defense industry, and related industries, make.

Get real - it's all about money.

[mhr]

31. Bingo! Give This Person The Prize - Iraq Equal Pure Greed!

My, isn't that one of the seven deadly sins.

Guess that means that all in the * administration will surely go to hell come judgment day.

[Christ was Socialist]

30. DiD We need a stanford expert to tell us that?<nt>

[ithacan]

37. he is missing the MAIN problems

that is, that the Bush regime people REJECTED all of the detailed planning that had been done by State and Pentagon people...

that the people of Iraq were bound to be incredibly skeptical of the US, knowing full well that it was people who are currently running the Bush regime who supported Saddam in his most brutal moments, knowing the US -- Bush Sr. -- called for a Shia uprising and then abandoned it, allowing Saddam's guys to crush them, etc. etc.

Unfortunately another case of unbelievable naivete, and for an academic to be this naive is just scary!

[0007]

38. Now I hope you go after junior with all your might and all your strength

""I had one of those moments when you cut through all the bull," he said. "I was speaking to this women's group, and one woman got up and asked, 'If we do all these things, who's going to protect us?' " Diamond recalled. "That was the moment when I said to myself, 'Oh my God, some of these women are going to be assassinated because they are here listening to me.' It just struck me between the eyes."

Please Mr. Diamond and help the American people to remove junior from office.

[Kadie]

39. Hopefully he will continue to speak out

After he spent 3 months or so there, he returned home, and was going to go back but didn't.

"Last Thursday, when it came time for Diamond to return, he did not get on the plane. "

I think that is quite telling.

[High Sierra Buck]

40. Nothing new really, recap of the mess we made

WE screwed up by thinking we could just go in and build a country in our image, GOD - LIKE

Other articles that fit into topic and re-enforce the image

The Christian Crusader, Religious Ideology and War Waged in Name of the Almighty

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_6701.shtml

As Pentagon sends more troops. Battles rage across Iraq. Resistance broadens after Pentagon atrocities

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_6725.shtml

AS THE SITUATION in Iraq grows ever more tenuous, the Bush administration continues to spin the ominous news with matter-of-fact optimism

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_6702.shtml

[Kadie]

41. It isn't just what is said in the article, but who is saying it

I think that is an important point of this article.

[KittyWampus]

42. Yeah, Well, This Was INTENTIONAL "BUNGLING"

to the point where it wasn't "bungling" at all.

Frankly, it seems most likely the intention was to invade Iraq to get the ball rolling... and then create & manipulate chaos throughout the ME>

[revcarol]

44. Sounds a lot like Kerry.

"We" just "did it wrong."

Kerry would have had a lot more "allies." Does committing a crime with more nations make it any less a crime?

This man is to be commended for even opening his mouth, considering the gang he runs with, but what he has to say is STUPID.

[Kadie]

45. one last kick

I'd like to see some more opinions on this article. It has been a very interesting reading the responses.