Maybe the draft is what this country needs

[Blue_Roses]

I've never been a supporter of the draft and to even think about beginning a draft makes me cringe, but after watching Chuck Hagel and Charlie Rangel discuss it I can definitely see where they are going with this idea. For one, it would include everyone in that particular age bracket. Rich spoiled bratty kids would not be exempt. Now this kind of draft I would support. Also, those who go to college would not be exempt. Rangel said that during the Vietnam draft it was the largest enrollment for college attendance.

Maybe some of our congressmen wouldn't be so quick to send troops to war if it hit closer to home for them and this was at stake.

[MichaelHarris]

1. formulating my draft debate but

I just wanted to say your sig line is one of the best quotes ever. I remember when he said that.

[Blue_Roses]

5. wasn't that

the most awesome comeback. Dan Quayle looked like he was gonna cry!

[MichaelHarris]

7. LOL

I was hoping he would cry. Anytime you make a 'pug cry its a good day in my book.

[kalian]

2. Pardon if I sound rude but....

:wtf: are you talking about?! There is NO NEED for conscription in
this country. There is no need for increasing MILITARISM in this
country either.
This is what authoritarian governments want: good and "loyal" military
men and women amongst the civilian population. We don't need to
create a "caste" system where military personnel are ranked higher
than regular civilians. The reason that I state this is because that
is usually what happens within such societies. And remember...we still
don't know what will happen within the next few months, i.e.,
whether or not we're headed towards martial law and a nice little
dictatorship here...in the US of A...

[hexola]

12. Which society would you think is more militaristic?

I dont buy draft = militarism

A nation with an all volunteer force is likely to be the more militaristic...IMO

This is what authoritarian governments want: good and "loyal" military men and women amongst the civilian population. We don't need to create a "caste" system where military personnel are ranked higher than regular civilians.

But that's exactly what we have - Ford gives discounts to active millitary if they buy a new truck...

I don't see how a draft will promote the above...I think it would produce the opposite effect...

[kalian]

21. Like I said....

we need to see what happens prior too or right after the 04 elections.
IF, we enter martial law and a subsequent authoritarian, right-wing
regime, then you can bet your life that an eventual militaristic
caste will be formed.... Case in point: Tommy Franks and gang...

[AGD4y2357y]

53. Then look at history comrade

First thing dictatorships do is install a draft. I DARE anyone to name one brutal dictatorship with OUT conscription. I can name you a ton of fully functional democratic free nations with out one - let's see you name a dictatorship with out one.

Dictatorships NEED conscription. They can not exist with out it. (or exist until the next morning)

[hexola]

55. Not to nitpick....and what about current history...?

I was focusing on the concept of "militaristic" - not dictatorship...

We have no conscription - yet we are (arguably) the most militaristic nation on the globe...

So you can be miltaristic without being a dictatorship...

[Blue_Roses]

13. It's ok

I know you're not being rude. I expected some comebacks pretty strong, but I think it's something we need to have dialogue about and while we are talking about it, putting the pros and cons out there helps.

As far as "caste," I think you missed my point. When one joins as a private there are no "social classes." Just hard work.

[kalian]

19. No, a caste system is instated....

The issue here is that you're thinking that the "grunts" don't form
a caste system...and you're right on that. The issue is the officer
corps. THAT is where the caste system is formed and solidified. They
are one rung under the "ruling class" and enjoy special bennies for
their "loyalty".

Grunts don't count. They're expendable. They will be maintained
"happy" so that they carry through with their orders...that's it.

I'm very much against mandatory military service. It has no role in
a democracy. If you really love your country, you WILL defend it
with or without military training. Period!

[Blue_Roses]

28. I do love my

country and have volunteered my services MANY times, in fact, ironically tried to join the military for the college scholarships, but didn't pass the physical exam. I also have worked as a social worker in many areas that could have been considered worse than combat.

[kalian]

35. That's fine....

and the issue is: you do not need to instate a mandatory draft that
STEALS years of a young man's, woman's life. Let them choose what
they see is necessary.

[The_camper]

3. i doubt it

The idea of a draft scares me. I hope that by being a student would get me out of it. I remember the stories my dad would tell me and what people he knew did to get out of being drafted. I just don't think people my age on my campus could bring themselves to fight in a war some have shown no support the entire time, from start the end.

But, I remember a year ago, talk of a draft. By a democrat, i forget his name. But his intentions for the talk was to scare the republicans into realizing the extent of such a war and possibly sending their own children and family to fight whether they want to or not.

[Blue_Roses]

6. the Democrat you might

be talking about is Charlie Rangel from New York. He's one of the guys talking strongly about this.

[ikojo]

20. I REALLY disagree with student deferments for

the draft. As we all know college is more and more becoming the purvue of the more well off as poor and moderate income people are less and less able to attend.

If there are student deferments then it would mean fighting would be left up to the poor and moderate income. This simply is NOT right. It is the investment class that benefits financially from every conflict the US gets itself into so why shouldn't their progeny be required to fight?

There was an article in the NYT early last year about WHICH class is on the front lines and it isn't the class represented by Harvard, Yale, Brown, or other elite schools that is for sure.

http://www.rcnv.org/rcnv/archives/2003/militarydemographics.htm

New York Times March 30, 2003
Military Mirrors Working-Class America
By DAVID M. HALBFINGER and STEVEN A. HOLMES

"Because the draft provided deferment to college students, the burden of being sent to Vietnam fell heavily on the less well educated and less affluent. And because of the unpopularity of the war, military service was disdained by many members of the nation's elite, leading their children to lose the propensity to serve that had characterized earlier generations of America's privileged. As a result, the Americans who fought in the Vietnam War looked very different from the professional corps now fighting in Iraq and stationed around the globe."

snip

"Over all, Mr. Kolb said, 76 percent of the soldiers in Vietnam were from working-class or lower-income families, while only 23 percent had fathers in professional, managerial or technical occupations.

The disparity created by the Vietnam draft can be seen on the walls of Memorial Hall and Memorial Church at Harvard University, where the names of Harvard students and alumni who died for their country are inscribed. There were 200 Harvard students killed in the Civil War and 697 in World War II, but only 22 in Vietnam...."

[Blue_Roses]

33. this is my point

and I think this is where Rangel is going with it too.

[The_camper]

71. not all students are poor

I don't know what schools you think all us wealthy kids go to. But I'm in debt for at least 2 decades once I graduate from school, maybe even more. I have little to no income, living off loans from my school and whatever I can bring in myself. Us 'rich' kids in the state school might not be as wealthy as the kids in an Ivy league, but I still don't approve of the draft. It is not right to make the poor fight an unjust war. It is not right to make anyone fight and kill who does not want to. But just because someone who is young is going to college does not mean we are well off in any sense. The average college grad makes $1 million in their life, the average high school grad makes almost $300,000. I'd rather be an educated in debt college graduate than work retail for my life.

It's easy to say it's not RIGHT, but you're wrong about the rich student and the need for a draft.

[hexola]

4. I too am wavering on the draft...

...but only because I'm almost convinced our military has been hijacked by Christians...the draft would help ensure that we have fighting force free of special interests...

[MichaelHarris]

11. I'm not wrangling at all

I'm against it in every way. I'm just having the debate in another forum and didn't want to repeat myself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1451052

[demosincebirth]

16. Do not lump all Christians together...please!

Many of us are middle of the road,
left of center and progressive.

[KamaAina]

49. I wonder if the fundies might be converting them once they get in

From what I hear, morale in our armed forces is at an all-time low. Not a bit surprising considering all the "stop-loss", "extended duty" crapola that's coming down on them.

That's just when the fundies like to swoop in on you: when you're down. When you're in rehab, in prison -- or stuck halfway around the world from home fighting an unjust, immoral war for the plutocrats.

[Mari333]

8. The guard and reserves are already being drafted

over and over..its called stop loss. They are being sent back to Iraq with PTSD, wounds, and many of them are there with horrific medical conditions they should have never been sent over with.
Yes, the only way to wake up the public is with a draft.
then they might think twice about rah rah ing their never ending oil wars and either start changing their lifestyles, or watch their kid get taken away like mine was, with scoliosis of the spine, because they needed to throw warm bodies into that bloodbath in Iraq.
No, we are stretched that thin, and as the other countries leave, it will get worse.
so this never ending PNAC war will require a draft.
I hope it happens, and if it does, Ill support hiding kids in my home to flee. and I will be understanding of what it feels like for other people who rah rahed this war when they have to wake up everyday wondering if their kid is dead when they watch the news.
otherwise, demand they be brought home now
and demand this war end.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[lastknowngood]

9. The rich will ALWAYS get exempted from service thats how it

is

[aintitfunny]

22. You are absolutely correct.

Money will provide the way.

[jadedcherub]

10. huh?

"Now this kind of draft I would support."

...I am under the impression that we don't like drafts because we dislike the idea of forced service to an ideal, and the thought of sending out draft notices to an equal number of "Rich spoiled bratty kids" as we do to any other socioeconomic class is just terrible.

Absolutely, and without restraint I say that the draft's wrongness is derived from compelling people to kill and injure, forcing them to go and die without them necessarily believing in the reason.

In my opinion, you do not under any circumstances force one human being to kill another. It happens enough on it's own, we hardly need to order and oblige more young people to go off and kill themselves and others.

[Mari333]

14. They are doing that now, sending people over who dont want

to be there and are medically unfit to be there. They are doing that now, demanding people fight in a war that is a fraud.
same thing happening right now.
I want to see some asshole freeper kids over there. The chickenhawks who hide when you pull out the enlistment forms. Thats who I want to see over there, people who support this war, send their goddamn kids. My stepson knows its bullshit, and he had to go anyway.
send over republican kids.

[jadedcherub]

15. It's not redemptive to ask to have more kids killed.

just because they're kids of people you don't like.

It's about making our government recognize what's happening with our voices, not our children, no matter what their background.

[Blue_Roses]

24. Have you noticed lately

they aren't LISTENING to our voices.

[jadedcherub]

26. So let's draft their children? Are you nuts?

Well, I mean obviously you're not nuts. We ARE having this discussion on DU, so we've got that going for us. ;)

[Mari333]

48. Until all of the american public has to suffer from this

they wont wake up. Its that simple. People live in denial, out of sight, out of mind. They dont think about it, and they dont care who dies.
therefore, they might wake up if little Johnny or Susie is on a battlefield with mortars coming in on them
I get to live with that everyday.
Let them live with it, they wanted this war, I didnt.
Neither did my stepson in Baghdad.

[LZ1234]

27. If I'm understanding this discussion correctly, it's the principle

we're talking about right? No one here sounds like they want the draft but if everyone knows and understands that all kids of all economic brackets, including the rich kids, are not exempt from the draft then maybe the Repubs would think twice about wanting Bush as their president.

[jadedcherub]

29. No, I'm saying a draft is unacceptable.

Period.

not "I could support a fair draft."
I'm saying even a completely and absolutely fair draft is still a wrong draft.

[kalian]

31. Technically....that's what the "debate" is about....

unfortunately, that's not how people debate the draft.
The issue should be addressed on principal, i.e., what the draft
brings to the society. All it brings is OBLIGATION. It means that
YOUR LIFE belongs to the state and it gets to do what it wills with
your life.

Many people argue that by making the draft "all encompassing" that
people will stop and think. WRONG! People do NOT stop and think
until it hits them...i.e., when their child gets killed or maimed.

There is no need for a draft. The US is not being invaded and is
under no threat of being invaded in the foreseeable future. There
is NO WAR here people. We are being LIED too.

[Blue_Roses]

37. It's not just about NOT

wanting Bush for President. If he wants to haul us into a useless, illegal war, then by damn ALL social brackets should help defend, not just the poor.

[LeahMira]

95. That's exactly right...

I want to see some asshole freeper kids over there. The chickenhawks who hide when you pull out the enlistment forms. Thats who I want to see over there, people who support this war, send their goddamn kids.

If people sincerely believe in the rationales for this war, they should be free to volunteer to fight it. If they happen to find themselves feeling sort of alone over in the Middle East, they should be free to volunteer to come back home.

:-)

[Blue_Roses]

17. First of all, I am not

implying that we "order and oblige more young people to go off and kill themselves and others." Whether you like it or not, there will probably come a time when we don't have a choice and while this is still being debated in congress it's best to have some guidelines this time around.

Secondly, as Rangel put it, this is not a draft to send everyone drafted off to combat. Many would be given "desk jobs" as he put it. Both my parents were in the Army during WWII--my mom was a nurse and my dad ended up in Normandy, France in that bloody invasion, so I don't take it lightly when I throw this out for discussion...it is JUST for discussion, that is...for now.

If there is gonna be a draft, NOW is the time to get some ground work done on how it will be implemented and the "conditions." I am VERY concerned for my nephews and children, so this topic I take extremely seriously.

[jadedcherub]

23. ...

Your second point not withstanding, I can see what you are saying insofar as having an idea of groundwork, and necessary ways in which to allow for a fair draft.

As far as "many" being given "desk jobs," I hardly think that's an important point for defending your position on why you would support a draft. There will be those who won't be as well, no matter what. A war is a war after all.

[The_camper]

72. the desk jobs

will likely just go to the rich, republicans will make sure that if their son/daughter is drafted they just sit at a desk pushing papers and checking their e-mail. If we are currently sending our troops back to Iraq injured either psychologically or physically, then why wouldn't these people have priority over sitting at a desk? they don't, they're a warm body.

[aintitfunny]

18. I cannot support the draft

no matter what noble philosophy is being touted as the reason for it. Being forced to do something you do not want to do is tantamount to slavery.

I do not believe in issuing death sentences on our young people to support anyone's political positions. Screw the nobility, the bottom line is kid's are going to die. If they have to die for this ego fest of the annointed Bush, they should at least be individuals who have chosen to serve their country in this regard. As I understand it most of our military would also prefer a volunteer force.

I am the mother of a draft age son. This is a major issue for me. I cannot imagine sending my son off to war, but to send him off to this vile, illegal war would be more than I could ever bear.

[jadedcherub]

25. Said more eloquently than ever I could... Thank you. (n/t)

[LZ1234]

34. I so agree with you. I can't even contemplate sending my son to this

illegal war. I've woken up in the middle of the night many times in the last 2 weeks due to this fear. I always thought I would send him to Canada but I just found out that there is a USA-Canada agreement where Cananda agreed not to harbor draft dodgers. It's had to think Bush's stupdity and fundamental religious beliefs have gotten our country and Iraq in this bloody mess.

[aintitfunny]

43. Indeed I understand

your sleeplessness. It is a frightening prospect. Not just the possibilities of death, not just the possibility of life altering disability, but the idea that innocent youth would be unnecessarily subjected to the trauma of war.

This administration, all its cronies and all of its blind supporters seem to think nothing of playing chess games with the lives of our children not to mention the thousands of Iraqis we have liberated from their lives and limbs.

All because God, the Father told Bush to do it. I have often wondered since we began this folly, how many Iraqi's would Saddam have slaughtered compared to what we have done? I sincerely doubt that he could have or would have come close to the numbers we have slaughtered.

[Mountainman]

38. "vile, illegal war would be more than I could ever bear"

And they say this in not like Vietnam. "LBJ, LBJ how many kids have you killed today?"

Soon we will have people marching in the streets to end the wars.

We won't raise taxes on the wealthy to fight the wars but the middle class and poor will not only give their children but also part of their incomes.

We do this in the name of security. Yet we are creating more and more terrorists.

We are also willing to give up many freedoms.

Losing kids, money and freedom so that the rich ruling class can live more comfortable.

Makes me almost want to start marching now. We are a country feeding off our own.

[aintitfunny]

45. Should they actually

re-institute the draft, there will be people in the streets. They hide from us the images of the bodies arriving at Dover. Too painful for people to see and really become awesomely aware of the facts. As for the numbers on the severely injured, I don't think we are being told the truth. I believe it has only been this bloody awful month that has wakened many to what is going on and the futility of it all.

We are NOT more secure than before our pre-emptive strike last year. How can we be more secure when the rest of the world views Bush with the same concern that they viewed Saddam Hussein? How can we me more secure when every American is viewed as complicit in this administration's actions?

[Blue_Roses]

41. I agree and I think Wes Clark

is right that the military should be made up of those who WANT to serve, but I think the purpose of this is to start discussion with the American people and I see it's working;)

Maybe it will have our congress and senate thinking twice about voting for a waste of our military forces as they have for this caotic, horrible mess in Iraq. It angers me to think if something really happened that we definitely WOULD need our armed forces that they are stretched too thin, causing a draft, from this stupid Iraq war.

[aintitfunny]

47. I see your point

but discussion sometimes leads to action. I feel so badly for the soldiers over serving in the War zone.

I was holding the belief that we should stay in Iraq and fix it. We broke it. We are responsible. But I am getting more edgy by the day that this is a bottomless pit of agony.

Bush knows he won't get re-appointed, for sure, if he supports the draft. I hate to see Democrats carrying his water for him, even for the purpose of open discussion. If the unthinkable does happen in November, he will start up the draft almost immediately. But he will make certain that his daughters will not have to serve and he will make sure all of his friends kids are protected as well.

[Mari333]

54. They already are issuing death sentences to young people

reservists and guards, putting them on stop loss, forcing them to stay on extended duty and sending them over now with medical conditions that they should have never been sent with
right now
so, if I have to go thru this, so should the people who dont want to think about it or have easy lives and dont care about it
maybe they will get pro active then and do something about it instead of ignore whats already happening to my kid and other peoples kids in the name of Bush's war
otherwise, I would prefer people get angry and demand the troops be brought home now
people dont get active until it touches them personally it seems

[stevedeshazer]

30. What, are you nuts?

Percent of "Rich spoiled bratty kids" in the US: One.

Percent of this one percent who will be drafted: Zero.

Percent of relatives of Chuck Hagel and Charlie Rangel that would be drafted: Zero.

Think it through. Do the math. :grr:

[kalian]

32. And besides....

they'll be cuddled in some safe, state-side unit that will never see
combat, etc.

[Guaranteed]

40. It's not the upper-class that matters

when it comes to supporting a war. It's the middle-class. If their kids are drafted and Bush comes along with a bullshit war idea, they can put the kabash on it.

[July]

79. And a lot more middle-class kids will be affected than rich kids.

And I don't mean because of rich-kid buyouts. There are simply MANY more middle-class kids than rich kids, a demographic fact. A draft targets a huge number of them.

[Guaranteed]

44. BTW

Percentage of rich, bratty kids currently serving in Iraq: Zero.

[stevedeshazer]

57. Yes.

Makes my point.

[Guaranteed]

59. I think it makes my point, which is that a professional army

is typically made up of poor people who are being taken advantage of by the government.

We're going to need a draft if we're going to balance that out.

[stevedeshazer]

62. Seriously,

If you think that a draft will balance it out, you are nuts. A draft will only mean that poor people will be drafted. Period.

[Kitsune]

36. I will not kill. Not for the government, not for *anyone*.

End of discussion.

[Kanary]

66. Then you will file for CO status, as others have done

And spend your time in domestic service to the country.

That is badly needed, also.

Kanary, who would also file for CO status, if she was draft age

[Kitsune]

89. I'm also against coerced mandatory service.

I'm pretty sure the 13th amendment has something to say about that...

[Guaranteed]

39. This is a new idea for a lot of folks.

When my Vietnam vet step-father said this to me years ago, I reacted in much the same way- WHAT? What the hell are you talking about a draft being a GOOD thing?

But, it stuck with me. And then I saw the way it was so easy for Bush to start a war with his professional military, and it all made sense.

It's going to take awhile for this one to sink in, I think.

[Blue_Roses]

42. It' s a new idea for me

I voted in the "no" category in CNN poll yesterday, so I can't believe I'm even talking about it as a possibility. But after listening to Rangel and Hagel talk about it, I see where they are going with it...

Maybe I'm feeling cynical too since I'm so tired of hearing about the deaths in Iraq, knowing this President NEVER served in combat and even eluded it. Makes me :puke:

[gpandas]

46. i was drafted...

and already had one brother in nam and another learning to speak vietnamese at the air force language school. he joined the air force in an attempt to avoid the war. i failed the physical and boy was my mom glad! no matter what rules are installed some children of the rich and influential will never see deadly combat.

[gpandas]

50. i was drafted and already...

had one brother in nam and another learning to speak veitnamese in the air force language school. he joined the air force to try to avoid the war. i failed the phsical and boy was my mom glad! we cried together that night for the brothers who were not there. no matter what rules we make, some children of the rich and influential will never face deadly combat. remember-young men bleed for old mens greed.

[Nashyra]

52. I have a draft age son

and do not suppoort the draft. But I do understand why it is being brought up, to scare those who do have draft age kids into becoming aware, to wake them up to the fact that a volunteer army is only large enough to protect the US from being attacked, not large enough to fight an elective war for ones own gain, politically and monetarily. I did agree with the invasion of Afghanistan, and I believe in all out force for any enity that attacks our country. Mind you I would not trust this resident to come to those conclusions that is why it is the job of congress to declare war.

For those who say they would not support a draft for any reason what so ever or the draft for any reason what so ever I have no more respect for you than I have *. There is always the possiblity that we might have to legitmately defend our country and that means all of us have a responsiblity and if some here want to live in a free country but let others fight for that freedom then your no better than *

[Blue_Roses]

56. well said

n/t

[Kanary]

67. Not only a "necessary" defense, but also

"all created equal". The draft is as much a civil rights issue as any I can think of in today's world. To be willing to send our poor off to such a mess, but make sure the middle class is "untouchable" is really horrendous.

It's time we rethink our values in such a system.

Kanary

[gpandas]

82. draft

do you mean to defend our country like in Vietnam and iraq? naturally, we all (hopefully) will defend our country when attacked. i'm not saying no draft, rather to be aware of the reasons for having a draft.

[Nile]

77. You are right.

The children of the rich and influential will never be on the front lines. They will be the clerks and other REMF jobs.

[gpandas]

51. sorry about the double post. must be time to quit for a day

[2bfree]

58. No F*****ing way!

I have two draft age sons who are beautiful, sweet non-violent passifists who wouldn't last a minute in the armed forces. Maybe the change that we need to have is to stay out of wars based on lies and oil. Anyone who is for the draft should have to go or send one of their loved ones to Iraq.

[Mari333]

60. My loved one is in Iraq

thats why I figure the only way the rah rah war crowd will ever wake up is to bring the draft back
I have 3 other draft age sons, and I am sending them out of the country when its brought back.
But the US public will never wake up to Bush neverending wars until someone lets the public know that the draft is inevitable is Bush stays in office
www.bushdraft.com

[Kanary]

61. It's, indeed, time to rethink the draft

I agree with the Vietnam vet step father...... our generation learned from our mistakes, and this is one that needs to be corrected.

When we fought against the draft (and won), we were well-meaning, but misguided. I remember one older man saying to me that abolishing the draft was the wrong thing to do, that having a volunteer army of poor people without other options was not just short-sighted, but also immoral.

Being swept up in the excitement of the time, and scared of having more of my generation killed (including my then-husband), I couldn't understand what he was saying, and thought he was dead-wrong.

It took me several years, and many life-experiences later, before I fully understood what this wise man was telling me. And, here we are, all these years later, with a military mostly made up of people who hadn't many other options. We've become fond of saying "Well, they knew when they signed up that they might be called to fight a war", and so easily dismiss the whole scope of the situation.

Yes, intellectually, they knew in some back part of their minds that they *might* be called to fight. For some, that is an attractive option. For others, it was something they shoved to the back of their awareness, because they signed up in order to get an education, or just skills for getting a job when they got out, or, even, medical care. I just wonder at all the people who are now saying "I have a son/daughter of draft age, and I'm against it". Because.....? Because those sons and daughters may find themselves in exactly the same situation that other sons and daughters are now in? I think there is a subtle discount here of the circumstances of some of our population, and a discount of what *those* parents may be going through.

If the US had free medical care for everyone, and free education available to all, then, that might be a different situation. But, as it stands now, that is far from the case. Some of these kids are coming out of foster homes, and after they graduated from high school were given something like $200 to start their lives on their own. What possible choices did they *really* have? Until we look honestly at this situation, the argument that a draft would reduce our "liberty" misses the mark. There are already so many among us who don't have this same "liberty".

There are many democratic countries which have a draft of some sort. One which I find interesting is Switzerland. We always think of Switzerland as such a peaceful country, and one which avoids war. So, it's interesting to find that they are required to spend (I can't remember now whether it's one or two years) in the military, then another 20 years in a national guard sort of situation. It certainly hasn't made them a "militarized" society! What it *has* done is to create a much more equitable situation.

I strongly believe that ALL our youth should be spending a portion of their lives in national service. If they can't imagine themselves fighting a war, then they must go through the process of filing for CO status, and serve the public in a useful way. I think this alone would do a lot to educate some of our middle and upper class kids about the reality of life, and go long way towards instilling some mature values. The uncertainly of war would give a lot more thoughtful consideration to the real reasons and necessity for waging war, as it has to some other countries.

I think our whole country has nothing to lose, and a lot to gain, from following this course. Certainly, it would be a lot more equitable than what is happening now.

Kanary

[Blue_Roses]

63. I can't believe I am going to say this

but I see exactly where you are coming from. It is so true that many kids join the military out of a lack of options for them when they reach 18. I know many who joined for that reason and also to have the scholarships for college that the military offers. I have a friend who has worked her way up the scale to officier status and has become a computer programmer along the way.

The only way I would support the draft though, is to see ALL ages in the "draft age" category drafted. I think that's what Rangel is shooting for. He said the burden of fighting for our freedom should be placed on us all.

[Kanary]

64. Absolutely! *NO* deferments, of any sort.

*EVERYONE* serves their year or two years. EVERYONE. As say this as a life-long anti-war protester, and a mother. Lest anyone should decide I don't know what I'm talking about. :)

Also, the burden of SERVING should be on all. The domestic service aspect should not be passed over. Should eveyone have to serve, I'm willing to bet there are many middle and upper class kids who would realize that what liberals have been talking about all these years wasn't a fig newton of our imagination. :)

Kanary, off to write a thank-you note to Rangel. :)

[ngGale]

65. Have to admit that Rangel is a heck of a good...

politician. LOL Put the shoe on the other foot and the rosy glasses don't look so rosy anymore.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kanary]

70. Frightening === EXACTLY!

Just as it is to those who are there NOW.

Of course you want to live out your dreams.... as do all those who are currently dodging bullets in the desert.

That's the whole point.

If your WHOLE generation, boys and girls, rich and poor, nerds and jocks were ALL subject to the draft, thee would be a LOT more involvement by your generation! Instead of spending the afternoon at the mall, they'd be meeting together, planning war protests.

This war was instituted, and *continues* PRECISELY because there aren't enough people who are scared of it.

We should ALL be deathly afraid of war. It's the only sane response.

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

81. That's the point

I imagine that you're not alone, that most American families feel the same as you.

Would make those families think twice about starting BS wars, wouldn't it?

[OneBlueSky]

69. I've ALWAYS opposed the draft, but . . .

given the times we're living in, and the fact that a huge portion of our population consists of human Chevrolets listening to Limbaugh and Hannity and voting for the "American Idol" but not the president, maybe this is just what's needed to jolt the great unwashed out of their complacency and FORCE them to look at what's going on in the country and the world . . . I'm not advocating it -- yet -- but nothing else has seemed to work, so maybe it's time to get drastic . . . as long as it's completely fair, and people like the Bush girls and George P. (Jeb's kid) are right in the mix, and there's alternative service for conscientious objectors, maybe it's something that should be considered . . .

[Guaranteed]

74. I don't see that there's anything else

that we could do. We need to spread out the burden to at least the majority of the middle-class in order to get them to pay attention, and there's no other way to do it.

[loudsue]

73. The story of an old war protester....David died for our freedom.

When I was a senior in high school, in El Paso, Texas, there was a guy I was crazy about, who I went out with all the time. His name was David.

He was a year ahead of me in school, and was a freshman at the University of Texas at El Paso in 1967. He came from a good middle-class family, and he played softball on the Methodist church team during the summer, against the other churches in our area. He had a brother who was 2 years younger, who thought the world of him, and he had a crowd of friends and neighbors that he had grown up with that also thought he was....well, he was a part of us all.

David's family didn't have a bunch of $$ to send him to college with, so he had to work a lot of hours to finance his education, and keep his Ford polished and running. His uncle owned a small aircraft company and had taught David to fly when he was really young, actually! And occasionally, when David and I went out on a weekend night, he would take me up in one of his uncles airplanes. We'd fly over El Paso in the summer, looking down on the beautiful blue, well-lit swimming pools that were open at night around town. The pools always looked like sparkling little blue gems. I always felt safe with him, even though I didn't care much for flying in other planes.

The Vietnam war was raging, and David had a low draft number (meaning he would be called up first when more troops were called for). But, David was a truly gentle soul...a peaceful, kind, fun, hard-working guy. And the thought of being called up...the thought of having to go to Vietnam and kill people, or be killed, was SO totally against his nature, that he became more and more quiet, as the weeks went by.

His brother was worried about him. I was worried about him. He was working so hard at his job that his grades were starting to suffer, which meant that his college deferment would not hold -- would not keep him out of the draft.

One Sunday, when it was time for church, David said he didn't want to go...that he had to study. His brother...just intuitively, he later said....decided to stay home from church, too. This was unusual, because they had so many friends in the neighborhood that went to that church, that it made going to church more like a social event.

At any rate, that morning while his parents were at church, David went into his bed room to "study". Instead of taking out his books, he took out his rifle.

The next thing you know, his little brother heard a gunshot, and when he ran into David's room, David was dead.

The police (who we all knew) interrupted the church service, and brought David's parents out of the church. I wasn't there that day, but one of my girlfriends left church and came to my house crying, and told me what had happened.

To say I was crushed doesn't do justice to what it did to my life. The whole community was devastated. It's, to this day, the longest funeral procession I've ever witnessed, as we all went to the cemetery the day we buried him. There must have been 300 cars, all driving slowly, lights on, and right past the local high school David had graduated from, just a year before.

But that day an anti-war activist was born. More than one, I might add. We, being in El Paso with a military base under our noses, had already lost at least 7 or 8 of our childhood friends in Vietnam. But David chose to die at home, rather than in some jungle half way around the world. And knowing him as I did, I know he would have died himself rather than kill another person; he just wasn't made that way.

It took many, many years for me to come to terms with David's death. And 37 years later, I still go sit by his grave site when I travel to El Paso. You see, in my mind, David died for my freedom: My freedom to question war, and the motives for war. My freedom to open my mind and see the bigger picture of who pays, and who plays. He died for my freedom to protest against those things that take away the freedoms, and the lives, of the people I love.

Now, I'm a warrior like David was. He died for the right to determine his own destiny -- for his own freedom, and for my freedom to wake up, and see who the real heroes are. He was no coward. If his loved ones had been in danger he would have killed to protect them, just as I would do now if I had to. But I'm the kind of person who takes insects outside and turns them loose rather than stepping on them. I don't ever intend to kill anything or anybody that doesn't really NEED killing. And there ARE people (and a few bugs, occasionally) who NEED killing. They are the ones who put peaceful people's lives in danger for sport, power, or greed -- THEY need killing.

But those were the days when there was a draft. Everybody had to go, if anybody had to go. I ended up at anti-war protests with one of the girls ahead of me in school who lost her husband (one of our high school football stars) in Vietnam.

Until the reality, and the REPERCUSSIONS, of going to war touches people, they sit idly by when their governments spread terror and destruction. But those of us who were protesting in those days shouldn't have protested the DRAFT -- just the WAR that we had no business being in. Until everybody's sons, daughters, husbands, wives, cousins, friends and neighbors' lives are on the line, and our OWN lives are on the line, people's minds become lazy. We vote our pocketbooks instead of our relationships. We watch "Survivor" instead of C-SPAN. A Democracy can't live that way...which is why we're in the totalitarian, sectarian, corporatized, polarized mess we're in today, in the good ole U.S. of A.

Until we're all in this TOGETHER, we're surely all going to be in this SEPARATELY. These are no longer the "United" States. I really think the draft -- with no exemptions -- can change that.

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Guaranteed]

75. Yep...

:)

[playahata1]

80. Amen, Amen....

Well said.

[Kanary]

84. Thank you for sharing your powerful story, loudsue!

I'm so sorry for what you and David and his friends and family went through. There are so many stories like that, and the loss to our generation is tremendous.

If anyone would have a reason to be against a Universal draft, you would certainly be. Yet, it opened your eyes to the sad reality of this system, and what it would take to change this rush to war. I admire you for writing out your painful history, and I hope it encourages some people to really think this through.

You are absolutely right, that there are so many divisions in this country, that something like a Universal draft may be about the only way to unify us again, as it does in other countries.

Thank you.

Kanary

[Nile]

76. You can thank Jimmy Carter for lessoning the threat of the draft.

Personally I think that he screwed up royally by pardoning all the Vietnam draft dodgers. People who got away with it once may be advising others to dodge it again this time because nothing happened to them when they did it. There may not be a pardon on the horizon next time and many will suffer the consequences.

[molly]

78. I would agree except that I have 2 sons in

that age brackett.

[Nile]

83. That does not sound right.

You would agree as long as it does not affect you. So in other words you would agree as long as someone else has do it.

[molly]

98. I would agree to send the Bush twins - you misunderstood

[Ganja Ninja]

85. The only reason we need a draft is because ...

not enough of these chickenhawk republicans will volunteer for the war they started.

[Stuckinthebush]

86. Here is the problem...

From a purely political standpoint, the draft is a wonderful idea for the Democrats to suggest. They can suggest it but won't be the ones actually putting it in place. Once US citizens see unwilling youth going over to Iraq and getting killed, or even start contemplating that idea, then the whole Iraq fiasco hits home and fewer people support the Republicans.

However, as Orion523 in post #68 clearly points out, he/she is the one who has his/her ass on the line, not me. We are talking about life and death here. That makes this proposal immoral. One could argue that by sacrificing a few young lives we can increase discomfort in the US public to a point where we get out of the whole mess, otherwise we could be in it for a long time with more Iraqis and US citizens being killed. But that is a gamble I'm not willing to take.

The Democrats need to stand up and say that this is a war of choice that has nothing to do with the security of the US (well, it does now because we have knocked down a hornets nest!), and that we need not send any more men and women over to Iraq to die for Bush's mistake.

This war is immoral, and the draft would be immoral.

[MadHound]

87. The logic of this just floors me!

Instituting the draft in order to prevent a war:wtf: Sorry, but that ranks right up there with "fighting for peace" and "fucking for chastity" as one of the most bizarre, twisted pieces of logic that I've ever heard!

First off, by giving this administration, or any administration, a vastly larger pool of troops to draw from means that instead of being involved with one regional quagmire, we can become involved with two, three or more.

Second, if you think that this is going to wake the sheeple up, then you have vastly underestimated the stupidity of the sheeple. If anything, having a child in the military is going to make the chickenhawks at home even more blindly patriotic, even more willing to turn a blind eye to genocidal atrocities committed abroad. We had a draft during the Vietnam War, and it didn't transform the chickenhawks into doves back then, and it won't today. Also, it has become glaringly obvious to anyone paying attention that our so called leaders don't give a damn what you and I think. After all, with messages running 280-1 against the IWR, with millions out in the streets, here and abroad, protesting the IWR, the President went ahead and pushed it through, with our so called represenatives completely ignoring their constituents wishes to start this goddamn war. I wouldn't want to bet my son or daughter's live that they will listen even if the message were running 1000-1 against war, for the only message that those in Congress hear is that of their corporate masters, and you can't have a military industrial complex without a war now, can you.

Third, if you think that the children of the rich and privileged won't be exempted, hey, I've got some fine land in the Everglades for you also. If an amendment isn't snuck in somewhere during the passage process, well then there will be the usual deferments and dodges that those with access to large amounts of cash always have had. A bogus medical system diagnosed by a pliant and well paid doctor(anal cyst anybody). Mental conditions that suddenly appear, and just as quickly go away. Perhaps we will see a lot of rich kids suddenly coming out of the closet(wouldn't that be a hoot). Or if all else fails, having money and influence employed through the back corridors of power in order to insure that the poor little rich kid will stay stateside and out of harm's way, after all, all of those generals, colonels, majors etc. need staffs. What more profitable pool for them to draw on than the children of the rich and powerful? Can you say TANG redux?

Sorry, but this is a horribly twisted idea that is being floated out there. If you think that this will reign in the warmongers, well I'm sorry, but you are seriously mistaken. All it will do is encourage them to commit greater and more horrible atrocities.

[Blue_Roses]

90. Well, it's not just a

"horribly twisted idea," anymore, but a reality. Get used to it. It IS being discussed by our congressmen and if we don't stand up and have a say in this then it WILL be NO different than the previous draft.

Fight it all you want but it is coming and probably sooner than later. At least we have a congressman like Charlie Rangel pushing and I say PUSHING TO MAKE THIS AN ACROSS-THE-BOARD draft.

[MadHound]

92. Yes I will fight it,

Just as I fight everything about this illegal, immoral war. And just because we have Congressmen like Rangel pushing it doesn't make it morally right or superior. After all, it was such fine upstanding Congressmen like Kerry who voted in this war, does that make it moral or ethical or even legal?:eyes:

And again friend, if you don't think that the rich and powerful won't find a way of either getting out of the draft, or insuring that their service is safely stateside, then you really need to wake up. Ever since there has been a draft, there has been a dodge for those who are well heeled or well connected. This one will not be any different, no matter what the language in the bill states. To think otherwise is deluding yourself.

It simply amazes and appalls me how many supposed liberals are welcoming the prospect of on upcoming draft. Don't let the chimera of a level playing field draft blind you to the reality of the many many ways that the children of the rich and powerful will be able to stay safe and comfy. Thinking with a head full of class envy is like thinking with any of the other myriad forms of hate in one's head. It blinds you to the reality of the situation, and clouds your judgement until it is too late.

My question for you friend is your ass, or the ass of your children riding on this issue? If not, don't go fucking around with those of us who do, OK.

[Kinkistyle]

88. Take fragile kid who enjoys floral arrangement and turn him into Rambo

...against his will? Force him to do push-ups, berate him, make him stay up for days while running up hills with full gear and if he is unable to do them, punish him and berate him some more. Then, ready or not, hand him a gun, throw him out on a battlefield to get shot at and to become a murderer? All against his will and desire without the option to quit?

Yeah, that sounds really civilized and fair.... in ANCIENT SPARTA. :eyes:

give me a fucking break. DRAFT=SLAVERY. No other way around it. Goodbye.

[Blue_Roses]

91. How do you think this

country became "free"? Do you think all the people who went to previous wars wanted to give up their warm cozy beds to sit in a cold wet trench. Give me a fucking break. Many fought and died so we could have this discussion.

It's like you want the freedom without the fight--and I'm not talking about Iraq. What if the time came that we really needed our strong military? Iraq definitely isn't it and it is a political sham no doubt, but this isn't just about a war with Iraq.

What would have happened if my parents and other parents had refused to go fight in WWII? Would you be sitting in Japan free to write this now...nope.

Geezee...take "fragile kids with floral arrangements...lol...some people...give me a fucking break...

[Kinkistyle]

93. Our country was built on the back of Negro slaves too.

and indentured near-slaves from China on the Trans-continental rail-road - you don't see me cheering on Confederacy or Robber Barons do you? The problem of Conscription is a MORAL problem. It is slavery. It might be slavery for a good cause - like fighting Nazi's or defending your country, but that would be the end justifying the means.

"It's like you want the freedom without the fight--and I'm not talking about Iraq. What if the time came that we really needed our strong military? Iraq definitely isn't it and it is a political sham no doubt, but this isn't just about a war with Iraq."

BZZZZT WRONG. Its not like that at all. If my freedom were truly at stake (like if N.Korea decided to invade the U.S.) I would gladly volunteer to fight for my country.

By the way, are you implying that the only reason why YOUR parents and other parents went to war against the Imperial Japanese and Nazi's is because the government forced them too?

[Blue_Roses]

96. wrong, wrong, and wrong.

By the way, are you implying that the only reason why YOUR parents and other parents went to war against the Imperial Japanese and Nazi's is because the government forced them too?

Look, I'm not implying anything, but since you brought it up. My dad joined the army at 16 (his mother lied about his age to get him in) to help FEED their family. He had NO IDEA that in a few years he would be sucking in sand on the beaches of Omaha, France. My mother went to nurse's school and joined the Army when she graduated because she thought --as she jokes about it--she would get to go to Florida! Instead she ended up in New Guinea ducking and running from Japanese bullets! My parents NEVER talked about this war because it was horrible and the memories were tough to speak of and it wasn't until my dad became very ill that I was "allowed" to look in the Army trunks. My mother to this day is sickened by what is going on Iraq and so are many others of that generation. They know they fought a war that WAS necessary and with that came alot of humility 'cause they all knew they were "in it together."

This war with Iraq is disgusting and the topic of this debate on the draft is to open discussion of how important it is to know that our freedom doesn't come lightly and those of priviledge should not be exempt from helping. It's not MORAL for those like Bush and the other hawks to push for a war, while they never fought themselves. They may think twice if their kids had to go.

Our country was built on the back of Negro slaves too."
and indentured near-slaves from China on the Trans-continental rail-road - you don't see me cheering on Confederacy or Robber Barons do you? The problem of Conscription is a MORAL problem. It is slavery. It might be slavery for a good cause - like fighting Nazi's or defending your country, but that would be the end justifying the means.

I live in the south and I know first hand the repercussions of that war. It's not even in the same ballpark

[Guaranteed]

97. You want Joe and Jane Schmoe to wake up?

You want the burden to be spread around at least as equally as possible among the economic classes? A draft is the only thing that's going to do it.

As long as these pro-war clowns don't have any stake in the war, they're going to sit by with their popcorn and watch the fun on TV. We have to make them GIVE a shit.

[MadHound]

99. Then please point out to me friend,

Any war, at any time, anywhere, where a draft or consciption actually spread the burden to the rich and powerful classes in society. You simply can't do it. Even during the most equaltarian draft cycle in US history, WWII, the children of the rich and powerful had influential patrons and family who insured that they stayed out of harms way, unless the children wished otherwise, and in some cases not even then. Sorry, but your premise flies in the face of centuries of reality, the reality being that the rich and powerful ALWAYS insure that they and theirs NEVER come to harm.

In fact a draft would only encourage this administration to open more fronts on the "war on terra". More troops, more fronts they can throw the fodder into. So instead of limiting our fighting to Iraq, and to a lesser extent Afghanistan, a draft would me opening up N. Korea, Iran, Syria an Jordan to military conflict. Not a bright idea. However, if this war is starved of troops, then the US will be forced to withdraw.

Sorry, but logical conundrums like yours have been proven time and again to be foolish, counter productive and deadly. Instead of encouraging a larger conflict by supplying more troops, let us instead work with more conventional methods that have been proven effective time and again. I know it is a long process, but it is an effective one.

By the by, are you of draft age, or do you have children who are? If not, perhaps you should ask those parents also what they think of your idea. Judging by the responses I've seen on this thread, they won't be terribly receptive either. Never forget, that with such a move as you propose, you might be consigning the rich 1-5% of the draft age people to a soft cushy stateside job, you will also be consigning the other 95-99% to the hard, harsh, deadly realities of war. Not very compassionate there friend, not very compassionate at all.

[LeahMira]

94. Draft as "gotcha" strategy?

... after watching Chuck Hagel and Charlie Rangel discuss it I can definitely see where they are going with this idea.

Sure, it's tempting to make the people who are going to benefit from war in the long run pay by risking their children's lives in the short run. That's demeaning to those of us who oppose this war, though. I oppose it no matter who is waging it. There's a certain sense of satisfaction that might come from watching the "rich and famous" squirm and sweat, but I'd hope to persuade them to join us and oppose this war instead of giving them yet another reason to find fault. Know what I mean?

I do think that if there is a war declared to stop a genocide, or for another valid reason (check out Auntie Pinko's piece today!), there would be no lack of volunteers who would want to do their part to fight this evil.

The draft ended, at least in part, because of attitudes best expressed in the slogan: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" Post-Vietnam, people weren't going to be drafted to fight a war for the government. They would be willing to fight for just causes, but not for imperialistic goals etc. Ending the draft was a way for the people to have some control over their government.

It won't help, IMO, to reinstate the draft and to take that voice away from the people, whether the people are among the otherwise powerful or the powerless.