DRAFT: ....yes or no? & what about drafting women?

[mopaul]

they are seriously debating reinstating the draft.

[stellanoir]

1. yeah. . .

I honestly thought they'd wait till after the election to reveal it but much to my surprise. . .this morning Senators Hagel & Biden were both stating the need for it to be reinstated on the Today Show (of all places). They were saying that it's unfair that the war should only be fought by the lower and middle classes.

[doni_georgia]

25. They are stupider (is that a word) than I thought - but

you know, just when I think this administration is as stupid as people can get, the American people prove PT Barnum was right. I was shocked to see how many people support reinstating the draft on that CNN Lou Dobbs poll. They were a minority, but no where NEAR the minority I expected. Are people's memories really that short, or did most of us that are old enough to remember Vietnam fry one too many brain cells in the 70s?

editing again for really shitty typing

[sniffa]

2. bring on the draft now

Let's see how hawkish they are when their famiLy has to puLL strings to get out of the draft.

[AGD4y2357y]

33. I REALLY wish people

would face reality.

No war hawk of any importance who supported this will have his/her kids drafted. (or, if they do, it will be directly in to a nice state side desk job)

This has been the case for hundreds and hundreds of years. What makes you think it's going to chage now? Come on, get real people.

[GoBucksBeatBush]

3. draft legislation

i read the house bill (the senate bill is identical, supposedly) yesterday...interesting stuff. a few observations:

1. the house bill was introduced last year, by rep. rangel (d-ny) among other dems (they were trying to force the issue, i believe)

2. the bill provides for all people 18-26 to be subject to the draft for "national service", with the service lasting two years.

3. the president would decide how many additional people are needed in each branch of the armed forces, and then people drafted above the number needed for military would be given civil service kind of responsibilities.

4. the legislation makes no provisions for an educational deferment or anything like that....only "extreme hardship" or prior service would get you out. (of course, in "don't ask don't tell" i imagine being gay would also get you kicked out, at least of the military)

5. the proposed legislation also makes clear that it includes not just all men 18-26, but also women. i assume rich fraternal twins with a surname of bush would somehow have an exception carved out in there somewhere.

6. there is a provision for conscientious objectors, but like usual, you have to go before a board and plead your case...if they don't buy it (most likely) then if you were drafted into the military, you would be placed in a position that doesn't require "combat training."

7. my own impression...reading through this, it made me think of places like france or isreal that have compulsory military service. i'm not sure how things would go down, as there's such a broad range of ages (18-26), if there would be a lottery or anything, doesn't say...just gives the president the authority to create the system whereby people are called in. two years ago i told my co-workers (texas high school coaches, mostly football...good guys, just sadly uninformed for the most part) that there was going to be a draft as a result of our merry adventures...they started mocking and saying that there was "no need to over-react", etc. etc. i'm no longer there, but damn, i really hate to say "i told you so." means that things have gone to shit and reality is setting in. i don't think this kind of legislation will get passed before the election, but i have no doubts that should bush get reinstalled in the white house this legislation will be passed, although probably on the q.t. and with some provisions that would keep people like george p. bush and the twins from being subject to the draft's reaches.

just my opinions and thoughts based on reading the legislation. if you want to read it, go to www.thomas.loc.gov. the legislation is house bill HR-163, and the senate companion bill is S-89.


here's the link to the house bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.163

the official summary from the senate version is as follows:
SUMMARY AS OF:

1/7/2003--Introduced.
Universal National Service Act of 2003 - Declares that it is the obligation of every U.S. citizen, and every other person residing in the United States, between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a two-year period of national service, unless exempted, either as a member of an active or reserve component of the armed forces or in a civilian capacity that promotes national defense. Requires induction into national service by the President. Sets forth provisions governing: (1) induction deferments, postponements, and exemptions, including exemption of a conscientious objector from military service that includes combatant training; and (2) discharge following national service.

Amends the Military Selective Service Act to authorize the military registration of females.

[mopaul]

7. thanks for the info GBBB

i have a 20 year old son, and i need this info

[July]

9. 20-yr.-olds go first.

Although your son might be in the second priority group if the draft isn't instituted until next year.

The first priority group is those who turn 20 in the year of the draft (so someone who will be 20 in November of 2005, for example, would be included in the draft of 2005, even if it occurs before he actually turns 20). There will be a lottery of those "20-yr.-olds." If they need more bodies, they go to the 21-yr.-olds, up to age 26. After that, the 18- and 19-yr.-olds get the call, but I don't know if it's 19-yr.-olds first or not (that would be my guess, since they seem to be trying not to go for the youngest till the end). Why 20 is the magic age I don't know.

[AGD4y2357y]

34. Why November?

What if they are 20 in say October 2005?

[July]

36. November is just an example.

As I understand it, you are in the first priority group if you turn 20 at any time in the year the draft is activated, no matter when in that year the draft is begun. So, let's say that the draft is activated in March 2005 -- again, just an example. Any young man (and maybe woman, I'm not sure whether women will be included) who turns 20 AT ANY TIME IN THE YEAR 2005 will be in the first priority group. So, young men born in 1985, including those born after March 1985, will be in the first priority group in March 2005, even though they could still be 19 years old. As long as they're turning 20 in 2005, they're in that first priority group.

[Dems Will Win]

19. GBBB, the Dem bills are IRRELEVANT. There already is a Selective Service

All Bush has to do is ask Congress to vote on a Trigger Resolution and the men-only draft would begin. NO bills are needed!!!

The following timeline gives you the main events indicating the resumption of the military draft. According to this, the draft will be needed to maintain troop levels in Iraq past March 2005, barring double deployments. $28 million is allocated by the Selective Service to reduce activation time from the current 8 months to 75 days by March 31, 2005. If Bush asks Congress on April 1, 2005 to reinstate conscription, the first Draft Lottery could be June 15, 2005. A Medical Draft and a new Special Skills Draft would also be activated automatically.

Kerry has a NO-DRAFT PLAN, while Bush would DRAFT hundreds of thousands every year to carry out the PNAC PLAN for domination of world oil. Vote for Kerry if you yourself or someone you know doesn't want to be drafted.

Impending Draft Timeline

1994 – The Grand Chessboard by Zbignew Brzezinski compares Central Asia to a chess game with Russia and China--which must eventually result in an American “win”. Control of the world’s oil supply and dominance in the 21st Century is at stake, as cheap oil ends in the 2010s. Noting that the Central Asian Republics are infinitely more important than any other region--save the Mideast--because “an enormous concentration of natural gas and oil reserves is located in the region, in addition to important minerals, including gold… Any successful American policy must focus on Eurasia as a whole and be guided by a Geostrategic design…That puts a premium on maneuver and manipulation in order to prevent the emergence of a hostile coalition that could eventually seek to challenge America's primacy…"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465027261/102-5321285-9753763?v=glance

1990s – “Project For A New American Century” and other right-wing organizations develop strategy for a “uni-polar world” ruled by the United States with many US bases in the Mideast and Central Asia. Invading Iraq and controlling the world’s oil supply becomes the Neo-Con manifesto.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html
http://www.presentdanger.org/pdf/frontier/1031neocon.pdf
Article by Will Pitt: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

September 11, 2001 – The 9-11 Attack. A “War on Terror” is begun by Bush with the agreement of the Congress. In the mission of the Selective Service, it is stated that the Volunteer Army is only intended for peacetime. In case of war, the nation may turn to the Selective Service. That is why it must always be kept as an option, even if dormant.

January 8, 2002 - On January 8, 2002, President Bush signed the No Child Left Behind Act, supposedly to provide accountability education policies. Yet hidden within the 670-page piece of legislation is Section 9528: “…each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide, on a request made by military recruiters or an institution of higher education, access to secondary school students names, addresses, and telephone listings.” All schools must comply with this unfunded mandate or they lose their federal funding. This amounts to legislated blackmail for student names. The act also says: “A secondary school student or the parent of the student may request that the student’s name, address, and telephone listing … not be released without prior written parental consent, and the local educational agency or private school shall notify parents of the option to make a request and shall comply with any request.”
http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/leg/esea02/index.html

Early 2003 - Iraq War, 250,000 out of 480,000 active-duty troops deployed, conquer Iraq within a few weeks. Yet the U.S. has no plan ready for reconstruction or democracy and Iraqis, happy at liberation from Saddam, grow sour at the slow pace, the continued lack of electricity and fuel and the isolated civil control of the CPA. Garner soon replaced by Bremer who is no better at speeding up Reconstruction, and the resistance grows with disaffected Iraqis, old regrouped Baathists and new foreign fighters. Except for the British, substantial foreign troops are impossible, given Bush’s desire to keep total control of Iraq. The lack of diplomacy, planning and incompetence adds years to the time high US troop levels will be needed to maintain control of Iraq and rebuild and exploit its oilfields.

Summer 2003 – Philadelphia Draft Board members “unexpectedly” told to recruit new members for Board vacancies during Summer training. (from Nov. 3 Salon article)
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2003/11/03/draft/index_np.html

July 25, 2003 – World Net Daily article on plans for the medical draft (HCPDS). System could draft up to 80,000 doctors, nurses and specialists, men and women.
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33754

September 3, 2003 – The Congressional Budget Office warns that “the Army lacks sufficient active-duty forces to maintain its current level of nearly 150,000 troops in Iraq beyond next spring (march 2004). "The Army does not have enough active-duty component forces to simultaneously maintain the occupation at its current size, limit deployments to one year, and sustain all of its other commitments" http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16689-2003Sep2?language=printer

September 23, 2003 – Draft Board Recruitment ad appears on Defense.Link site. First public ad for Draft Boards in decades. Page scrubbed within a few days of being noticed by some media in early November. Spokesman says there is “no plan” to reinstate draft, which must be authorized by Congress. http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html
http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/draft-boards.htm

October 16, 2003 – Donald Rumsfeld memo leaks, saying Iraq “will be a long, hard slog”. www.usatoday.com/news/washington/ executive/rumsfeld-memo.htm

Nov. 4, 2003 – NY Times article on Army Honor Guard Company B being sent to MidEast, revealing how thin troops are being stretched to cover the 2004-2005 rotation.
http://villagenews.weblogger.com/stories/storyReader$10007

Nov. 5, 2003 – Toronto Star article quotes Ned Lebow “This (draft board ad) is significant”, Lebow, a presidential scholar at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire and former professor of strategy at the National War College in Washington, adds, "What the department of defence is doing is creating the infrastructure to make the draft a viable option should the administration wish to go this route." http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1068073289288&call_pageid=968332188854

Nov. 5, 2003 – Guardian article on Draft Board ad. SSS spokesman Amon said 80% of 11,000 Draft Board slots are vacant. (2,000 local boards, over 8,000 empty seats) http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077906,00.html

Nov. 12, 2003 – “If President Bush is re-elected, it is likely that he will reinstate the draft. The war on terrorism will not end in Iraq, but instead will proceed into countries like Syria and Iran," said Daniel Ellsberg, of Pentagon Papers fame. http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/11122003/news/60246.htm

November, 2003 – Selective Service 2004 “Performance Plan” summarizes how $28 million will be allocated in 2004 to reduce draft activation time from current 8 months to just 75 days. Nation-wide Readiness Exercises, testing the Draft Lottery and examination system, as well as gearing up the Medical Draft (3.4 million doctors and nurses, men and women age 20-44 are eligible). Ominously, the Alternative Service delivery system for Conscientious Objectors is readied for the first time in decades, with the SSS being funded to compile lists of available Alternative Service jobs for those who win non-military CO status. All systems will be pushed to reach 95% readiness during 2004.
http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

Nov. 23, 2003 – Boston Globe article: “Army Reserve battling an exodus
War is seen as drain on ranks. The US Army Reserve fell short of its reenlistment goals this fiscal year, underscoring Pentagon fears that the protracted conflict in Iraq could cause a crippling exodus from the armed services.”
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2003/11/23/army_reserve_battling_an_exodus/

Nov. 24, 2003 – NY Times: Army plans for 100,000 troops until 2006 in Iraq.
http://www.iht.com/articles/118775.html

Nov. 26, 2003 – Ron Paul (R-TX) says “Draft likely to be reinstated”. http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul144.html

December, 2003 - Draft Board Recruitment ad re-appears on the Selective Service Home Page with 2 new sentences stressing the ad has “NO connection” to Iraq. (Scrubbed 03/04) http://www.sss.gov

Dec. 4, 2003 – Ted Rall predicts Bush will “have to bring back the draft.” Notes 8,000 empty Draft Board seats to be filled by Spring 2005. Wonders about a “February (2005) Surprise” if Bush is re-elected. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=127&ncid=742&e=7&u=/uclicktext/20031204/cm_ucru/acolddraft

December 22, 2003 – In an article entitled “Beware of Attempts to Revive Military Draft,” Newsday reports that “the Center on Conscience and War… executive director, J. E. McNeil… has heard of rumblings, from the Republican side of the aisle in Congress, about a draft after the election”. The opinion piece worries whether a revived draft “would give this war-without-end presidency an endless source of warm bodies to pursue its cowboy foreign policy.” Author Keeler also wonders about a “February (2005) Surprise”.
http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-vpkee223594883dec22,0,6735184.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines

December, 2003 - The Selective Service Register magazine talks about the new Special Skill Draft, a top priority for Director Lewis Brodsky. Like the Medical Draft, the Special Skills Draft will induct men and women up to age 44 if they have needed DoD skills like computer expertise, engineering or they are a linguist. As with the health care draftees, no medical deferments are allowed except for total disability. Anyone with these skills will have to register with the SSS if Bush is re-elected and asks Congress for this. Moving quickly!
http://www.sss.gov/PDFs/NovDec2003-Register.pdf (go to P. 6) – from sss,gov home page

December 29, 2003 - WP article: “Army Stops Many Soldiers From Quitting, Orders Extend Enlistments to Curtail Troop Shortages” 40,000 soldiers and Guard put on Stop-Loss. A “Draft Per Se” already exists! With the new stop-loss orders the Armed Forces actually go 20,000 past 480,000 active troops, to 500,000 active troops, the maximum before Congress steps in.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36979-2003Dec28.html

[newyawker99]

21. Hi GoBucksBeatBush!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[napi21]

4. I don't want a draft, but if * keeps starting wars there won't be

any choice. I heard a few articles on c-span this morning about concern at the Pentagon about the lack of re-enlistments.

Yesterday, I read that the 2 week R&R for the soldiers was stopped rather quickly because there were too many AWOL's. When they got home, they just didn't go back.

I have heard there really aren't enough back-up trrops to relieve those who have been in Iraq for over a year already.

Bush continues to talk about going after terrorists and those who harbor them, no matter where they are. If he preceeds to continue what could turn into World War111, there won't be a choice but to re-establish the draft just to get warm bodies.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. Who cares what we think

what is Bu$h's stand and Kerry's stand on this major issue?

This needs to be discussed, NOW! I am glad that it can't wait until after the election.

IMHO, since they keep telling us that 50 - 63% of the country supports Bu$h's Blunder then they should be lining up voluntarily and we wouldn't need a draft.

Come on W, where's Barbie and Jenna? Why aren't they the first in line? College can wait, their country is at war and you are their war time president. How can you ask someone else's kids to fight and not expect your own to make some sacrifices too?

[seemslikeadream]

6. Hey I signed up!

[aintitfunny]

8. No, No and No

I have a draft age son. It would be a terrible thing for him to get drafted and be sent to a war I found justifiable. I would not be able to stand it if he got drafted and sent to fight in this illegal war. This war I so detest. I don't think people should expend my son's life and limb to prove any point, republican or democrat. I am continually amazed at the casual and cavalier discussion on this subject. Sometimes it feels as thought no one really understands that the men and women currently fighting are someone's son, daughter, mother, father, husband, wife, sister, brother.

[Ganja Ninja]

10. I don't think there's a debate going on on the draft.

The Democrats are only half-heartedly calling for one. The GOP is stalling until after the election. Then we are going to have a draft no matter who is president. I'm not for a draft but we need a draft because we can't keep asking the same 250,000 soldiers to keep rotating in and out of Iraq.

[Loonman]

11. If there is a draft they better draft women, too

Unless they weren't serious about the equality issue.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. Whole heartedly agree

[hershbep]

12. No to the draft

I will be the first person to say that I support the brave men and women serving in the God-forsaken countries of world. However, I do not believe that it is a government's right to force individuals who may not support a war or conflict to serve. As a college student majoring in history/social studies and minoring in political science, I am pretty well aware of the history of our actions and the repercussions that can and will occur should a draft be reinstated. If the current administration and the Republican party for that matter didn't believe that it was some sort of "manifest destiny" that the US should be the police of the world, then we wouldn't be in the predicament we are now. The current war in Iraq is just another Vietnamese quagmire, despite what Mr. Bush says. And I won't even begin to mention the mistakes that this administration has made since this war had begun.

However it does seem like I've gone off on a tangent. The simple fact is that less people support this war then support it. More people see the draft as a relic of the Vietnam era, and less see it as a means of promoting stability around the world. When most democratic nations have abolished the draft, it really questions the motivations of the US. I was recently on a panel discussing key issues that make Democrats and Republicans different, and one of those issues was "Defense" If Mr. Bush gets his way, he hopes to have a Missile Defense System like that of Star Wars during the Reagan administration. Again, what sort of message does that send to the world. In a post-Cold War world, there is no need to spend billions of dollars on a program that would make the US look worse. Not to mention, there is no guarantee that Star Wars would ever work. But, rather then spending billions of dollars on defense, why doesn't the Bush administration work on making the US more presentable to the world community and less of a threat.

One last note, the draft itself scares me, and scares a lot of people my age. Many will say that they are willing to die for their country, until they get in the thick of the action, and then they want to run away. NO ONE should be forced to serve in a conflict or war or what have you, if they do not support it, no matter how much they love their country. All that will occur with the reinstatement of the draft is continued protests at home and around world. The US can NOT afford to look like an ass any longer. Before there are even talks about reinstating the draft, polls need to be taken, people need to be asked, people my age. You can't have these war vets in Congress saying that the draft is a great thing, when they no longer have to fight for their country. It is not right for these congresspersons to basically doom an entire generation just to prolong a losing war. It is time for people my age to stand up and protest our rights getting trampled upon by congresspersons who are only thinking on one side of the issue.

[welshTerrier2]

14. Corporate Conscription and sexual equality

imagine that a law was passed that allowed corporations to grab you or your children and force them to fight for corporate interests overseas ... they could keep you there as long as they wanted to ... your constitutional rights would now be "interpreted" according to the uniform code of military justice, not the u.s. constitution ... you had no say whatsoever over your own destiny ...

well, stop imagining ... they call it the draft ...

when the ruling classes need more bodies to do their bidding and further their greedy, mercenary interests, they grab anyone they want to ... they refer to this process as "doing YOUR patriotic duty" ... of course, they sit at home "supporting the troops" 100% !!

as to the other question raised in the base post, i see no basis for treating men differently than women ... the sexes should have full equality both as to rights and responsibilities ... to this end, IF we continue the current system of making men register with selective service at age 18, we should extend the same responsibility to women ... anything else is discrimination, plain and simple ...

[John_H]

15. Only w/ the Rangel Bill attached which would

mandate that the first 200,000 kids drafted sent into action come from the wealthiest families. We'd never have a war again.

[Hunter_1253]

16. I for one would...

like to see the draft reinstated just to see how all the neo-con hawks I work with handle watching the lottery to see if their kids get sent off to war. Everyone of them has some “logical” explanation why their child would or should be removed because of college, grades, not being interested in organized activities, medical issues, and so forth. I’m sick and tired of listening to them support the Chimp’s war when it’s somebody else’s ass on the line, and maybe this will wake them up. Kerry better make this an election issue, and force W’s hand on this.

[m-jean03]

17. Where are they debating it?

Am curious.

[edison1958]

18. Draft---Non-Starter

I don't think there is the remotest possibility of reinstituting the draft. Military commanders don't want it, the general population doesn't want it, it's a non-starter. I would much rather have volunteers who want to serve---even in hard assignments---than conscripts. Also, the military is meeting its recruiting/retention goals. Why start a draft when it takes at least a year to get it in place and soldiers to units?

[caffefwee]

20. They should draft prisoners

Remember The Dirty Dozen. They could give Bush a choice, go to war or remain in prison for his crimes, after he's impeached.

[Eureka]

22. The ABC (Aus) mentioned it for the first time

that I know of, last night.

Of course, it's been discussed here for ages, but it is a bit scarier when it starts getting discussed "in public". I've sortof been waiting to see when that would happen, because to me thats the watershed moment, when it stops being a theory and starts being a reality.

My sympathies in advance to anyone affected by the entire thing (not that everyone is not already affected mind you)

[wasichu]

23. It ain't me, it ain't me

I ain't no senator's son...

[htuttle]

24. Hell no, we won't go

Put me in the No column.

For whatever intentions various politicians might have about activating the draft, it will only enable further military adventurism. I would guarantee that the same chickenhawk spawn that avoided previous drafts would find ways to avoid this one.

[Libertarialoon]

26. Conscription == slavery (n/t)

[Mountainman]

27. We do not need to fight these wars for PNAC so no draft needed either

If we were to stop the imperialistic wars and bring our troops home we do not need a draft. We need to get out of Iraq and let the UN take over with our help.

We do not need a draft if we do not intend to continue the wars and attack Syria, Iran, N. Korea and whom ever else this administration adds to their list.

Don't take for granted we will always be at war and you won't see the need for a draft.

[cornfedyank]

28. i like the idea of two years national service for all

three catagories: pick one

1. service within America

2. service to the world (peace corps)

3. military service for them that like it.

the main reason i like this is because it preserves the melting pot and contributes to edification and tolerance.

[Mountainman]

30. Why not have diversity training in school for two years instead?

California has a Civilian Conservation Corp made up if young volunteers. The do work around the state doing various prodjects with the enviornment and infrastructure.

[cornfedyank]

35. i want everyone not just volunteers

the people who would not volunteer may need it the most. i want people out there learning to work with others toward a common goal. at the same time i want them expanding horizons and learning about the things that make all of us the same. i think that when one sees that we are more alike than different, the differences fade.

you can call me a dreamer, but i'm not the only one.--John Lennon

[screembloodymurder]

29. Bring it on !

and let's draft the Generals first and work our way down the ranks. It could be a lottery. Draw the #1 and your a ***** General. Not so crazy when you stop to consider our Commander n Chief.

[doni_georgia]

31. I doubt it will come before the election

BUT I think it will have to come in the end. I support the men and women fighting in this illegal war completely, but there is a BIG difference in voluteering for military service and getting drafted. Personally I think that the draft ought to be tied to DECLARED wars only. In order for a draft to be instituted, Congress should have to issue a formal declaration of war as outlined in the Constitution. No War Powers Act, unofficial war. If it's a WAR, then go through the procedures provided in the Constitution. Then and only then should a draft be considered.

[laylah]

32. NO on the draft

and absolutely NOT re: women. I have two daughters and they would have to go through me to get to them, the bastards! I would feel the same if I had sons...nobody, but NOBODY, will make "cannon fodder" out of my children...no way, no how! :mad:

Jenn