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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 07:02 AM
Original message
DLC centrism: "Perils of the Dead Center"
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 07:09 AM by Q
Published on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

Perils of the Dead Center

by Roger K. Smith


"...Democratic politicians don’t have it so easy. The party’s powerful donors, exemplified by the Democratic Leadership Council, invariably urge White House contenders to behave like Republicrats. In this view, Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis were too liberal to win, but Bill Clinton got elected because he campaigned as a “New” Democrat and avoided (or triangulated) the left. Joe Lieberman’s campaign this year represented DLC thinking across the board, with Edwards and Kerry behind by a nose in the race to the right.

DLC centrism has become the conventional wisdom of the so-called “liberal” pundits of the press. This centrist media voice, to which Senator Kerry is clearly listening, is now clamoring for a Kerry-McCain ticket. (Can you recall a time when a Republican was ever urged to make any important appointment from another party?) Whatever wisdom there may be in this appeal from within the Democratic party to eschew the perception of liberalism, it does not match the thinking of the large majority of Democrats, Independents and non-voters.

In recent days, Senator Kerry has repeatedly emphasized his centrist credentials. At a top-dollar fundraiser, he assured well-heeled New Yorkers that he was “not a redistribution Democrat.” He has already begun retracting his own proposals for new spending programs, signaling Wall Street that paying down Dubya’s deficit will trump his domestic agenda. He swiftly approved of Bush’s craven concessions to Ariel Sharon -- concessions that sound the death knell for Middle East peace negotiations -- for fear of showing insufficient fealty to the Israeli right.

This all surely placates the DLC mandarins, but it must be recognized that these are perilous tactics. The more daylight he darkens between himself and Bush/Cheney, the more he legitimates their policies and alienates those left-liberals who ought to be his most fervent supporters.

A large, motivated activist base will be crucial to success in the 2004 election. The country is intensely polarized. The current administration is perhaps the most radical in the history of the presidency. A tremendous number of Americans (not to mention foreigners) have noticed this. People are fired up. The zeitgeist is zinging with renewed liberal pride. Howard Dean’s unexpected early ascent captured the spirit of this most crucial of election years. --- http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0420-07.htm
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. What poppycock!
Bill Clinton is the Father of the DLC, it's leftist Democrats who whine about the DLC but they are the one's that can't seem to get anyone elected!
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. "Leftist Democrats"...
- Liberals haven't had any kind of voice in the Dem party since the 70s. How can we get anyone 'elected' when the right-leaning centrists have almost full control of the party? The DLC controls the party machine and the money. They've outright rejected any and all candidates who want to run a 'populist' campaign or thinks corporate/state corruption should be an issue.

- Clinton is all you have to show any kind of 'success' in the DLC agenda. But two terms of Clinton brought us a party much too similiar to the GOP in many ways...including the sham called 'welfare reform'. Meanwhile...the REPUBLICANS literally own our government...from the house to the senate to states and judgeships. If this is what you call 'success'...we're in deep trouble.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Kerry is the furthest left Dem nominee of my lifetime
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 08:30 AM by blm
and STILL some say he's no different than Bush. Odd, since Bush is the furthest right president of my lifetime.

Wonder who benefits from spreading misperceptions like that.

I am thrilled that one of the most liberal candidates won the nomination. I am thrilled that someone who carried progressive water for three decades will represent the left against BushInc.

I am thrilled that Kerry will close the corporate tax loopholes and pull any government projects from corporations with offshore addresses that are cheating our society out of legitimate tax dollars.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Kerry is left of Lieberman...
...I'll grant you that. But it's already clear that he plans on appeasing corporate America before he represents The People.

- Kerry has to depend on the Anyone But Bush* voters to pull off a win. That's a sad statement when there are many liberals/progressives ready to back a candidate willing to break away from the corporate crowd and tell the whole truth about the direction of our country.

- Your definition of 'liberal' seems to be different than many who call themselves Liberal.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. In 2003, Kerry was the most liberal person in the Senate.
And has consistently been one of the more liberal members of the Senate.

But what are statistics when you want to make a silly point?
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Cheesehead Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
31. Bingo. You hit the nail on the head.
Bush ran in 2000 as a centrist "compassionate conservative" and then turned hard right once he was appointed. He had a hidden agenda that would have precluded his candidacy had it been made public.

Kerry has a strong history as a liberal that is documented by his Senate record. I believe that his strategy is to lean to the center to pick up the independent and disaffected Republican votes and then return to his roots and push a strong liberal agenda once he is in office.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. You're wrong about that. Kerry is NOT beholden to corporations.
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 08:58 AM by blm
He never took money from corporate pacs. He garnered the best environmental record of ANY of the candidates, including Kucinich and you don't do that by giving in to corporations.

Kerry is proENVIRONMENTALLY friendly business and intends to use the bully pulpit to lead corporations into the advantages of a proenvironment mindset and a new era.

Guess you didn't know Kerry helped craft the Kyoto Protocol for 10 years? Corporations were NOT fond of that proposal.

I am a liberal who supported Kucinich before he even realized he was a liberal.

I am a liberal who is thrilled that the man who exposed the BFEE in BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning is our nominee. Kerry exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history and any liberal should be cognizant of those efforts.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. It's a lot more complex than the either/or dichotomy
For instance, I will readily acknowledge that JK has many proposals now and in his past record that show his committment to environmental causes -- Kyoto, CAFE standards increase, committment to an "Apollo Program" for alternative energy, etc. However, he has also demonstrated a willingness to place commercial interests over environmental concerns, exemplified by his willingness to endorse fast track even after his environmental/labor amendment was defeated.

What he seemed to say to me in that instance was, "I'm willing to try for the environment and labor, but not at the expense of failing to represent commercial interests."

Is JK the most liberal nominee we've had in over 25 years? I'd say yes. Does that mean that we can expect him, as President, to be a champion of progressive causes? Hardly. It's a completely mixed bag, representative of the unfortunate realities and grossly unequal power structures of the times.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Kerry is still more progressive than Carter, Clinton or Gore.
All of whom contributed greatly to this planet, and I would STILL vote for ANY of those moderates over ANY rightwinger like Bush.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. More liberal? Yes. More progressive? Hardly.
None of the candidates you mentioned were significantly "progressive". Contrary to popular belief in the circles of DU, the words "progressive" and "liberal" are NOT interchangeable.

Furthermore, I fail to see what your response is refuting in my post, in which I acknowledged that Kerry was probably the most liberal nominee we've had in the past 25-30 years.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. Not intended to refute. Just adding.
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 10:05 AM by blm
Contrary to popular belief, my posts are not intended to be antagonistic, just straightforward thoughts as they come or purposefully defensive/corrective.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Then I'll add my agreement with the following statement...
I would STILL vote for ANY of those moderates over ANY rightwinger like Bush.

I wholeheartedly concur.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
62. tell ya what, "Q" - tell us YOUR definition of liberal
Kerry's voting record is generally liberal, similar to that of his more senior colleague, Edward Kennedy. Americans for Democratic Action, a liberal political group, gave Kerry an 85 percent rating in 2002 and a 95 percent rating in 2001. Kennedy, by comparison, got 100 percent in both years.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/president/candidates/kerry.ht...

The same group gave Kerry a 93% lifetime rating, Ted Kennedy got 88%

The ACLU gives Kerry similar liberal marks.

So, I'm asuming you have a few pet issues that you feel someone must agree with you on to be a "real liberal."
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
43. yeah but he's terrified of the word liberal
and ducks and dodges when questioned about it.

Wes Clark came right out and embraced the word and explained all that it and the Dem party meant. No stammering, no convolutions, no equivocations
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. They were SELLING themselves in a primary.
Clark aligned himself very much with Kerry's positions because he had no record of his own . I was happy to see how close they were in their positions.

Dean HAD to use left wing rhetoric to sell himself during the primary because his longtime record was that of a centrist who often aligned with Republicans in Vermont.

Kerry uses moderate tones to sell himself because his record is liberal heavy over his 35 years in public.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
85. Kerry is firmly to the right of Kucinich and Dean,
wouldn't you say?

I'd say only Liberman is to the right of Kerry, so Kerry is not "one of the most liberal candidates". "The most liberal candidates" didn't really have a chance to begin with.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Lets see now
The DLC started in the late 80's, we took the next two Presidiential elections. Pretty good record if you ask me. I happen to like the welfare reform of the 90's just fine.

The DLC has contol of the party for one simple reason it work's!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I do not support the idea of welfare familes for life
I do support giving a helping hand when needed.

drugs are bad and can hurt other people around you also. IMO drug testing should be done at all jobs! Alcohol testing same thing IMO. nicotine testing is just plain stupid!

And heres a piece of advice if you want a answer from me, don't give me laughable arguements.

Hope you didn't have to hold your breath to long. :eyes:
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. The only laughable arguments are coming from you
Your simplistic view of the welfare debate is not highly constructive. The original system was set up to do just what you suggest -- provide people a helping hand. While there were "welfare families for life", they represented an extremely small percentage of people on welfare.

Did welfare need to be reformed? Absolutely. But gutting the program and instituting onerous work requirements without adequate job training and educational opportunities, health care or child care was not the needed reform. Now that the economy has hit an inevitable downturn, we are beginning to see just how much of a sham that "reform" was.

drugs are bad and can hurt other people around you also. IMO drug testing should be done at all jobs! Alcohol testing same thing IMO. nicotine testing is just plain stupid!

Now, THIS is an example of a laughable response, as it fails to address ANY of the nuances I proposed to you initially -- which makes me understand why you refrained from posting it in the thread in question, since you probably didn't want anyone to point out the oversimplicity and fallacy of your argument within the context of the original discussion.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. The only people IMO
who object to drug testing are people using illegal drugs. I will not post about this again here and is why I stopped posting in the other thread you cannot give an argument as to why we shouldn't have drug testing. Taking illegal drugs is against the law! period.



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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. drug testing is intrusive fascism
not all people against drug testing are on drugs. perhaps you should educate yourself on this issue and do some reading on false positives etc.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. And to return to my earlier argument regarding sodomy laws...
The persons in the recent SCOTUS case were breaking existing Texas sodomy laws -- PERIOD. What they were doing was against the law -- PERIOD!

However, the court rightly determined that their 4th amendment right to privacy was being infringed upon. Please explain to me how this is different from someone smoking a joint in the privacy of their own home while never showing up at work under the influence.

And again, should people then also be tested to determine if they had a drink in the privacy of their own home, away from their place of work, even if they never show up under the influence?

Where does this slippery slope end?

BTW -- I'm just waiting for you to denounce my introduction of homosexuality into this debate as "bigoted", even though another gay poster on that initial thread regarding drug testing completely agreed with the logic of my analogy.

I notice you have no comment on welfare reform, or the ineffectuality of the DLC WRT Congressional and Gubernatorial races in the 1990's and current decade.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I agree with you completely.
I guess people like him hate to argue with facts, notice no response to my post.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. good post.
I am a gay poster who agrees with you 100%. :hi:
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
80. Excellent point
Prior to the Supreme Court decision on the TX sodomy case, one could have made the argument that the only people who oppose police visits to your bedroom are those who are having gay sex.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. Sorry to burst your bubble...
but I am a person who refuses to take a drug test for a job and who has never used ANY illegal drugs.

I refuse to do so on the grounds my civil rights would be infringed on.

The only instance I believe drug screening might be warranted is for a job in which public safety is involved, other than that, but out of my life.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
79. And I suppose the only people who object to warrentless searches
Are people with something to hide.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. That's a Myth and a LIE!!!
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 09:34 AM by Solon
Myth: The poor receive the most welfare.

Fact: Corporations receive the most welfare.



Summary

Entitlement spending on households is surprisingly "flat" in the U.S. -- the spending is distributed proportionately among the various income groups. However, federal spending tilts in favor of the rich when you add corporate welfare to the mix. And this pro-wealthy favoritism becomes more pronounced when you consider who is paying for it: over the last few decades, the tax rates for the rich have sharply fallen, both in personal income and corporate taxes.



Argument

The following chart shows how entitlement spending is distributed in the U.S.:

Distributions of Federal Funds by Income Bracket, Compared to Distribution
of Households by Income Bracket, CY 1991 (1)

Percent of Percent of
Income all households all benefits
-----------------------------------------------
Under $10,000 16.4% 17.8%
$10,000 - $20,000 18.8 21.7
$20,000 - $30,000 17.0 17.2
$30,000 - $50,000 23.6 21.8
$50,000 - $100,000 19.1 15.9
Over $100,000 5.1 5.6

As you can see, federal entitlements are distributed proportionately among the income groups (with insignificant shifts towards the poor and the very rich). If taxes were flat as well under this distribution system, then Uncle Sam would simply be returning everyone's money to them -- a pointless and wasteful exercise, everyone would agree. It's only when taxes are more progressive that income is shifted downward under the above system. For this reason, the loss of tax progressivity over the last several decades means that less income is being redistributed to the poor, and Uncle Sam is increasingly engaging in a pointless exercise:

The Loss of Tax Progressivity
Effective Family Federal Tax Rate (Income and FICA) (2)

Year Median Millionaire or Top 1%
---------------------------------------
1948 5.3% 76.9%
1955 9.1 85.5
1960 12.4 85.5
1965 11.6 66.9
1970 16.1 68.6
1975 20.0 --
1977 -- 35.5
1980 23.7 31.7
1985 24.4 24.9
1989 24.4 26.7

Keep in mind the first column is for median families; poorer families pay even less, so there is still some downward distribution. But there is less downward distribution than in previous decades, namely, the 50s and 60s.

That's a critique from the tax angle; another is possible from the spending angle. The first chart is a strong argument for means-testing federal entitlements. The rich do not need the money; they've already got the most of it. Perhaps an argument exists for helping the rich out in times of dire emergency, but to give them non-emergency funds like Social Security begs a defense. Others might argue from a "trickle-down" philosophy that enriching the rich will increase investment in jobs and business, but, as statistics from the 80s reveal, the rich can enjoy exploding incomes and still invest less than ever before. The trickle-down proposal can thus be rejected on historical grounds alone.

However, the above discussion only concerns households. What happens when corporate welfare is thrown into the mix? To answer this, we must first answer three questions: what is corporate welfare? How much of it is there? And whom does it benefit?

The definition of corporate welfare

Corporate welfare can be defined as pork-barrel spending, unjustified government subsidies, and unjustified tax breaks. They qualify as welfare for the following reasons:

The difference between pork and legitimate government contracting is their corresponding value to society. When Eisenhower paved the nation with highways, the economic benefits were obvious, and few if any begrudged the highway construction companies their good fortune. But when Congress spends $500,000 to build and run a Lawrence Welk museum, the result is a waste of the taxpayer's money and a needless diversion of our nation's limited resources. And the reason such a diversion occurs is not because market forces or market signals compel such a project. It occurs because a corporate lobbyist makes a campaign contribution to a certain influential member of Congress, who returns the favor by giving him this package of squealing bacon. The result is a happy businessman who is given something for nothing. True, his project creates jobs -- but they are not economically justified. It's as if the government gave a welfare check to a poor person and said: "You have to earn this check -- go find ten of your friends and have them stand on their heads, and then pay them 50 percent of this check for doing so." It's even worse than that, because the pork contractor is consuming our nation's finite resources.

Government subsidies are judged by the same criteria. Presently the government is subsidizing the Genome Project, which is too expensive and long-term for private enterprise to invest in. Yet there is reason to believe it will probably eliminate most genetic diseases in the human race, and its social benefits and economic promise are obvious. This is not the case for the Texas wool and mohair subsidies, which cost Uncle Sam about $100 million a year for a product the Defense Department no longer wants or needs. Again, these suppliers could not make the same money on the free market, so any profits they realize are the equivalent of a welfare check. In this case, subsidy programs resemble pork -- indeed, many are pork.

Unjustified tax breaks are also welfare. Most companies pay taxes, and they receive a number of public goods and services in return. These include police and fire protection, national security, public roads, utilities, government economic data, publicly funded research and development, educated workers, etc. If a corporate lobbyist can win a $5,000 tax break, this means that the company is funding less of the government's goods and services, even though it's drawing on them just as heavily as before. In other words, society is carrying this company to a greater degree. Now, there may be good reasons for doing so; Uncle Sam may want to give tax breaks to the companies building the information superhighway, because of the enormous economic promise it holds. But most of the time, tax breaks are not given out for justified economic reasons like this. Essentially, any company with a lobbyist can bribe a tax break out of a member of Congress. Which means that the rest of society has to pick up the slack; they might as well be paying these "legal tax cheats" a welfare check.

Notice that subsidies and tax breaks are opposite sides of the same coin. No matter which a company receives, the effects are the same.

The costs of corporate welfare

The estimates vary on how much pork, unjustified subsidies and tax breaks are really out there, but moderate estimates run from $100 to $150 billion a year. Here are what various think tanks and policy groups estimate:

* According to the conservative Heritage Foundation (which is basically in bed with corporate America), government could save $20 billion a year by eliminating just three dozen corporate giveaways. This is almost one year's worth of AFDC.

* The Office of Management and Budget and Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation report that taxpayers pay businesses $51 billion in direct subsidies and lose another $53.3 billion in corporate tax breaks, for a total of $104.3 billion a year.

* In a three-part series on corporate welfare (7/7/96), the Boston Globe writes: "The $150 billion for corporate subsidies and tax benefits eclipses the annual budget deficit of $130 billion. It's more than the $145 billion paid out annually for the core programs of the social welfare state: Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), student aid, housing, food and nutrition, and all direct public assistance (excluding Social Security and medical care)."

* Ralph Nader's Center for the Study of Responsive Law has identified $167 billion in corporate tax breaks and handouts given away in 1994.

* The Progressive Policy Institute, a moderate Democratic think tank, has identified $225 billion worth of questionable, special-interest spending and tax subsidies that Congress should reevaluate. It has also called for Congress to save $265 billion over 5 years by eliminating or scaling back 120 specific programs.

* The Cato Institute, a Libertarian think tank, estimates that federal aid to corporations ranges from $250 to $350 billion a year. It has specifically identified 125 federal programs subsidizing private businesses that would save taxpayers $85 billion if cut.

* The House Progressive Caucus, which is mostly comprised of Democratic members of Congress, has called for the elimination of $800 billion in tax subsidies and other benefits for corporations and the rich.


Corporate welfare is largely a lobbyist phenomenon. As a rule, legislators do not give away something for nothing; it is a favor they bestow on those who donate to their re-election campaigns. Not surprisingly, the meteoric rise of the corporate special interest system in 1975 (when corporate PACs were legalized) has been accompanied by an equal rise in corporate welfare. Today, the federal government is giving away more pork, subsidies and tax breaks than at any time in its history.

Despite winning more subsidies and pork, however, corporations are paying less and less in taxes. None of the above estimates includes one of the largest corporate tax breaks in history: the continually falling share of federal tax revenues paid by corporations. Over the decades, the tax burden has been shifted away from corporations and towards workers:

Source of funds for Federal Spending (3)

Personal Corporate Payroll Excise/
Decade Income Tax Income Tax Tax Estate Borrowing
----------------------------------------------------------------
1950s 42.0% 26.9% 11.5% 17.2% 2.5%
1960s 42.0 20.4 18.4 14.9 4.4
1970s 40.3 13.3 27.7 11.3 11.1
1980s 38.0 7.7 29.2 8.2 17.7

The share paid by corporations has fallen to less than a third of its former level, whereas that of the heavily regressive payroll taxes (Social Security, Medicare) has nearly tripled. Who's collecting more welfare from whom?

Who benefits from corporate welfare

Corporate welfare increases a company's profits. Lobbyists argue that this helps everybody, because those profits go to create jobs, invest in businesses, promote research and development, etc. However, none of these alleged benefits have been happening since corporate welfare began rising in 1975.

There were 24 million new jobs created in the relatively low corporate-welfare 70s. In the 80s, when corporate welfare reached full steam, only 18 million new jobs were created. (4)

Investment also fell in the 80s. Between 1970 and 1979, the rate of private investment was 18.6 percent; between 1980 and 1992, it fell to 17.4 percent. (5)

Workers have not been benefiting either -- the average hourly wage has been falling:

Average Hourly Wages (Total private industry, 1982 dollars) (6)

1978 8.40
1979 8.17
1980 7.78
1981 7.69
1982 7.68
1983 7.79
1984 7.80
1985 7.77
1986 7.81
1987 7.73
1988 7.69
1989 7.64
1990 7.52
1991 7.45
1992 7.41
1993 7.39
1994 7.40
1995 7.40

So if corporate welfare hasn't been going to jobs, investment or blue-collar wages, where has it been going? The answer: the soaring incomes of the rich. CEO pay nearly achieved orbital velocity in the last few decades:

Salaries and benefits of corporate CEOs as a multiple of the average
factory worker's (7)

1980 30 times
1991 130-140
1996 187

And that's just a snapshot of a much larger trend. Here's how much income for different income groups grew during the 80s:

Percent Increase of Combined Salaries by Income Bracket, unadjusted
for inflation (1980s) (8)

Income Bracket Percent Increase
-------------------------------------
$20,000 - 50,000 44%
200,000 - 1 million 697
Over $1 million 2,184

Inflation over the decade was roughly over 50 percent, so the income growth for the middle class didn't even keep pace with inflation. (Household income statistics, which show a rise for all income groups in the 80s, are deceptive because wives were joining their husbands in the workforce. The above measure corrects for this statistical glitch.)

Pretty clearly, corporate welfare increases the profitability of companies, thus allowing them to pay the exploding owner and management pay for which the last few decades have become notorious. Essentially, corporate welfare is a welfare check for rich individuals.

By contrast, individual welfare payments for the poor have been falling. Between 1970 and 1991, the purchasing power of benefits for the typical AFDC family fell 42 percent, primarily as a result of state and federal cuts. (9) The following chart shows just how small -- and growing smaller -- welfare payments for the poor really are:

Average Monthly Benefits (Constant Dollars, CPI-U) (10)

Program 1980 1993
-------------------------------------
AFDC (per family) $350 261
Food Stamps (per person) 42 47

Keep in mind that AFDC and food stamps are by far the largest welfare programs for the poor. (Medicare is technically larger, but 75 percent of that goes to the blind, the elderly and the otherwise disabled.)

In conclusion, the rich have been paying lower and lower rates on personal income and corporate taxes. But they receive a proportional share of personal entitlements, and they are outright favored when it comes to corporate welfare. For them to criticize welfare programs for the poor is therefore misleading at best, and hypocritical at worst.


ON EDIT: this is the source, my bad :)

http://mirrors.korpios.org/resurgent/L-corporatewelfare.htm
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. OMG this is one of the best summaries I've ever seen on this topic!
God bless you for doing all that work! I hope you've sent it to every media whore and elected crook you can think of!

Excellent work, friend. Thank you very, very much!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. I didn't do it, in memory of Steve Kangas, I forgot to mention it.
I didn't mean to forget, simple copy paste, but here is his site.

http://mirrors.korpios.org/resurgent/LiberalFAQ.htm
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. Thanks so much for the info
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 09:53 AM by redqueen
I can't wait to get this to everyone I know. Some democrats I know love the dlc and think the current, unfair form of free trade and corporate welfare is justifiable ...

Lord, what's happened to this party... :(
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
55. Your breakdown is a service to us all!
Your effort to delineate precisely what is meant by "Welfare" is carefully done, and should illustrate, once and for all exactly what is going on in this country: That the attitudes against welfare are NOT based on fact, but on emotional prejudice against those in need.

I very much appreciate what you have done here, and hope that everyone will take this information, and use it constructively to shoot down those persistent myths. As a nation, we NEED to start speaking the truth!

I have saved this information to file, and would like to know if I have your permission to share it with others.

Again, thanks so much for the considerable time and effort you spent in drawing this out!

Kanary
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
30. "Welfare for life" is a myth
About 90% of all people who receive welfare benefits receive less than 5 years of welfare over their entire lifetime.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
78. "drug testing should be done at all jobs!"
It's scary when democrats exhibit no understanding of the Fourth Amendment.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
63. correction - we took the next THREE presidential elections
Gore got the most votes.

The American public was overwhelmingly in favor of welfare reform. It was going to be done - either by the president or the Republican Congress. Yes, President Clinton signed a bad "welfare reform" bill in 1996, but Clinton vetoed worse Republican bills twice, winning concessions each time including - increased child care funding (by $4 billion), worker retraining, extensions for benefits, exceptions for "hard cases" and more.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. How'd we do in Congress and Governorships over that period?
Last I checked, the record on that end wasn't too hot.

That's one of my main complaints with the Clinton phenomenon and the DLC. They think that Clinton's election to two terms was indicative of their success. But that success might have come with a hollowing out of the very soul of the party, evident by the lack of success in making party inroads into rural areas, along with some pretty big Congressional defeats.

WRT welfare reform, I view it as yet another case of the Democrats ceding the framing of issues to the Republicans. We allowed Reagan and the RW to frame welfare for over 15 years, without countering with our own frame. The reason the public wanted reform is because they bought into the "welfare queen" myth -- largely because the Democratic Party establishment didn't do a damned thing to counter the lie.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I can show you periods of time when the Dems were down...
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 03:29 PM by wyldwolf
...in those categories and the DLC hadn't even been created yet.

So what were the "excuses" then?

If we are to believe that the DLC is to blame for congressional and governorship losses from the 90s until now, then you must believe that the DNC has NEVER lost seats until 1988 when the DLC was established. How else would the DEMS had lost power without the evil DLC?

The other party always picks up seats in off year elections. The other party always has periods where they are up or down.

We did, however, win house seats we were not projected to win in '98 - much to the surprise of the GOP.

WRT welfare reform, I view it...

Prime example here of how the further left either don't see the big political picture or either don't want to. It isn't about "how YOU view it." It is about compromise to achieve progress. Regardless of why (and it doesn't really matter why) Welfare reform was a VERY popular proposition to the American people in the 90s. To have not addressed it would have been political suicide.

All in all, I think you blame the DLC for a problem that plagues the entire left - disorganization. The DLC is just a handy target.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
52. I am a leftest dem. I destest the dlc, but the fact that they
control the party is our fault. The naderites would be better if they focused on getting powerful positions at the precinct level. That is why Dean lost Iowa and New Hampshire.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
60. nah
Liberals haven't had any kind of voice in the Dem party since the 70s. How can we get anyone 'elected' when the right-leaning centrists have almost full control of the party? The DLC controls the party machine and the money. They've outright rejected any and all candidates who want to run a 'populist' campaign or thinks corporate/state corruption should be an issue.

Without delving into the derogatory way in which you've described moderates, quit whining!

You can't get control of the party because you can't organize. You fight amongst yourselves. Always "he/she's not a real liberal, isn't liberal enough, blah blah blah..."

Whine and moan.

Clinton is all you have to show any kind of 'success' in the DLC agenda. But two terms of Clinton brought us a party much too similiar to the GOP in many ways...including the sham called 'welfare reform'.

Tell you what. Got to the DLC website and look and the ranks of it's members and tell me that Bill Clinton was the only success of the DLC.

And be careful when referring to that Welfare reform bill. Such a bill was very popular with the American people at the time and the Republicans were going to pass one - one way or another. Yes, President Clinton signed a bad "welfare reform" bill in 1996, but Clinton vetoed worse Republican bills twice, winning concessions each time including - increased child care funding (by $4 billion), worker retraining, extensions for benefits, exceptions for "hard cases" and more.



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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. I agree with 1/2 of what you just said..
Candidates and their supporter further left of the DLC do whine about the DLC - usually because a DLC candidate doesn't pass their ideological purity tests. And the fact that they can't often get elected to meaningful national offices.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. You're "wyldly" off the mark on this one, wyldwolf
Candidates and their supporter further left of the DLC do whine about the DLC - usually because a DLC candidate doesn't pass their ideological purity tests.

You're perpetuating a false stereotype here, wyldwolf. The problem that I, as a leftist Democrat, have with the DLC can be summarized as follows:

1. They might have originated with a good purpose (infusing new ideas into stale liberalism), but as they achieved power they have ceased to develop any new ideas and instead are only interested in perpetuating their own power.

2. They have gone from being "centrist" to being "corporatist" -- probably mostly for the reason cited in #1.

3. Their ideas have become stale and re-used ones -- much like those of the stale liberalism they once strove to replace.

4. They perpetuate more vigorous attacks on the left-wing of the Democratic Party than anything ever dreamed by the RW smear machine.

5. They talk of "bipartisanship" with the authoritarian thugs who currently control the Republican Party, people who have no interest in "compromise".


These differences are probably more about strategy than ideology. So, I guess that I'm one leftist Democrat who doesn't fit in with your characterization.

And the fact that they can't often get elected to meaningful national offices.

I'm sure this has nothing to do with the expensive nature of national races these days -- realities that make candidates turn to corporations and big donors to make up the difference, IOW the bread-and-butter of the DLC.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. actually I'm not
regardless of your belief that the DLC are "corporatists" (your opinion that it is a bad thing) and that they "smear" others, the simple fact remains that further left liberals can't seem to get organized enough to run effective campaigns.

Yeah, it has to do with the expensive nature of national races these days. That is an example of how you can't seem to get organized for the campaign. But it also has to do with ideology and reputation.

How has Nader done?
Kucinich?

You (as a whole) simply cannot see beyond your petty bickering among yourselves and your contempt for anything further to the center to realize that. You'd rather whine about how evil and unfair it all is than to organize and WIN something.

I'd love to see it happen. We need the voices. But please stop WHINING and DO SOMETHING!



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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #66
82. This is a typical left/center sticking point
The thing that you have to realize, as a centrist, wyldwolf, is that for many of us on the "left" electoral politics is not so much an emphasis as it is a peripheral matter, something that must be acknowledged but which is not the sole focus of our attention.

That is because many people on the "left" are activists first, and politicals second.

You said, "You (as a whole) simply cannot see beyond your petty bickering among yourselves and your contempt for anything further to the center to realize that. You'd rather whine about how evil and unfair it all is than to organize and WIN something." What this says to me is that you are viewing leftists from the pure perspective of a centrist, believing that the focus must unequivically be on electoral matters. Too often, those of us on the "left" make the same mistake in viewing people in the center from our perspective alone. The end result is an exchange like the one that you and I just had.

For someone on the "left" like me, I can honestly say that I am already "doing" several things -- although few of them are directly involved in electoral politics. While that might diminish the importance of those activities from your perspective, it doesn't diminish them from mine.

I did a thread on this disconnect between activists (mostly those on the "left") and those primarily concerned with electoral matters (mostly those in the "center") probably about a year or more ago. I wish I could find it right now, because it definitely garnered some thought-provoking responses, and would apply a great deal to this current exchange.

This problem is more prevalent with regards to the center/left than it is on the right for a simple reason -- authoritarianism. The majority of people on the "right", excluding libertarians, embrace authoritarianism to different degrees. This means that they already accept a heirarchal structure which enables them to easily set aside differences and focus on common goals. Perhaps the extent to which various elements on the left and center tend to reject authoritarianism actually do a disservice to our ability to unify in the face of a common opposition -- the right wing.

Furthermore, I won't discount the amount of "whining" that takes place on the left. It's certainly real, and is one of the main criticisms I have of many of my fellow activists right now. We're great at stating what we're AGAINST, but when it comes to expressing an optimistic vision of what we're FOR, we're quite lacking. Unfortunately, that often leads to further discord between the center and left, and this post was more of an attempt to head off that discord in spite of the very real differences in perspective between us.
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. The Democrats
can ignore their activist base at their peril. If completely dissed many WILL vote for nader (I'm not saying I agree with that tactic).
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I don't know anyone that will vote for Nader...
...but the Dem party MUST to more to attract their massive base of liberals and progressives.

- A kinder, gentler version of the Bush* agenda just isn't going to do it. We're already a nation where more than half of the voters don't bother to show up. Can we depend on ABB alone to bring out the voters we need to win?
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Bev Conover published a brave piece
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/041404Conover/041404conover.html

Im quite impressed with her. Not in lockstep at all.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
38. I like Bev as well-
Her commentary is accurate and correct. The one glaring issue not factored into her commentary is WE CAN'T GO BACK to the way things were pre-Bush and 9/11.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing thats how we learn. We've all, including Bev, been duped by the Bush Gang.

Bush justifying his rush for retaliation, pointing first to A-stan, then suddenly the hunt for Osama, the Taliban, then Al-Quada..all the while we're subjected to tvs unrelenting bombardment 24/7 replays of the actual attacks. Followed by the round the clock coverage documenting the valiant rescue teams victim search efforts for almost a year.

Bev can castigate Kerry all she wants, and yes, I know, he is a bonesman. Theres good and bad in all organizations. Clinton isn't a bonesman, but he is Demolay, Bilderberg. These organizations are in global power and theres nothing we can do or say to change that dynamic.

The best we can do is elect the leadership that cares about people. Kennedy and Clinton's greatest attribute was just that..

"Taking care of People".

If Kerry uses that lexicon (set it to the tune of Taking Care of Business) as the foundation for his campaign; he'll blow Bush away hands down!


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Sorry. Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. hear hear
I'm astonished that DUers never ask the question ... how come, in somewhere that supposedly values it's freedom and democracy more than any other, there is a lower voting rate that practically any other country on Earth? Including countries with large abstentionist movements or rigged and corrupt elections.

The pattern is echoed elsewhere - 'First past the post' system + identical candidates = low turnout, high apathy.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. The presidential election is very narrow.
It is, give or take, a battle in only 17 or 18 states, and among about 10% of the electorate in those states who are undecided.

Centrism is the only way to attract those undecided votes. The number of leftists who will vote for Nader is infinitely smaller than the number of uncommitted/undecided voters who will be swayed by the electoral politics/promises/positions of this summer and fall.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. and what sways them?
careful now
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. I totally disagree
Centrism didn't do squat for us in 2002. If we're going to go down, let's go down standing FOR rather than merely AGAINST something. Let's go down fighting rather than pandering. The problem for the uncommitted/undecided is that they don't see a fucking difference. That's where centrism has gotten us.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. The DLC reminds me of the parable of the Fox and the Grapes
Their only purpose is to win. They want to win that election. But the tactics they choose to win with create candidates that are not representitive of what we want. They are just lite versions of that which we are trying to beat. Thus when we win we are left with sour grapes.

I would rather win defending what I believe in. If it means a loss so be it. For in defending what I believe in I may bring others to see things in a similar light. If we win by playing to the center we only energize the center and the right.

Yes fighting for the left may lose an election or two. But fighting for the center counts as a loss for the left anyway.

Its really very simple. You cannot lead a people by following them. You need to stand up and tell them what they need to hear, not what they expect to hear. People can only follow if you lead. If you want them to wake up you have to disturb them. You have to make noise. You have to tell them the unpleasant truth.

We watch now in mute horror as the Corporations funnel our middle class into other nations. We have only ourselves to blame. No one stood up and recognised the imbalance that created this vacuum. No one pointed to the excess of wealth in the US and the vast poverty of the world and said this was bad. We wollowed in our excess and now the Corporations are ready to slice up our lives and distribute them to the lowest bidder.

So do we allow our self to be lead to the slaughter or do we take charge of our lives and find a better path.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I don't think what Kerry does in office will be defined...
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 09:57 AM by robcon
by what he says and does in public this summer and fall.

Kerry's not going to change, but he must make symbolic gestures (e.g. Sister Souljah) or marketing offensives (e.g. ending welfare as we know it) to attract more undecided people to his candidacy. The DLC is right. To get elected, Kerry must attract (aka pander to) the undecided middle. Not a unique position for a politician.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Long term problem
As the DLC maintains its hold on the direction of the Democratic party their desire for candidates that can appeal to the center will begin to take its toll. If candidates get into office riding centerist positions there, the people will quickly catch on if they go full bore liberal once in office. They are called campaign promises.

Thus over time the DLC chooses candidates that not only can sound centerists but actually are centerist. Thus we get Joementum and Zells. They effectively silence the left and create an environment where any leftist ideas are seen with disdain. They energize the right and give the Conservatives an opportunity to move further to the right. And because of the DLC's tactics they move further to the right in order to try to capitalize on their motion.

And the ultimate irony of all this is the people see the Dems as chasing votes. They are aware that there is nothing real behind the rhetoric of the Dems by way of the DLC. They see us as untrustworthy flipfloppers who answer only to the latest polls. They see the conservatives as people who stand by what they say. They may not even agree with what they say but the integrity is important to them. Its what being a leader is about.

Until we stand up for what we believe in, instead of standing up for what we hope will win, people will see us as desperate. Its like guys trying to get dates. The desperate ones try everything under the sun and are spotted as exactly that, desperate. The guys that live by their own definition have far less trouble finding someone who is attracted to them. And that is the trick right there. You do not try to become what you think someone is attracted to. You become yourself and find out who can be attracted to that.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Yes...centrism is becoming the norm...
Edited on Wed Apr-21-04 11:39 AM by Q
...in a party that has always been the ONLY opposition to the GOP. We're being pulled to the right in order to compete on the right's playing field.

- The DLC is also perpetuating the myth that principles and ethic won't win elections..that it's ALL about money and 'appealing' to the center. This mythology completely disregards the millions of liberals, independents and progressives looking for principled leadership instead of those who can raise the most corporate bucks.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. And therein, robcon, lies part of the problem
I keep hearing the chant "Get out the vote", "Get out the vote". The rallying cry for registering and getting to the poles those who traditionally stay home and leave the voting to us.

So, how do we actually *mobilize* these people to GET their bodies out to the poll and vote? By telling them what we think they want to hear, the doing otherwise later on?

That is PRECISELY a big part of the problem. A lot of people don't bother because they've become cynical, and don't trust ANY politician. And, you have articulated the very reason for the cynicism. Because they KNOW that whatever is being said publicly ISN"T what is actually happening underneath all the rhetoric.

Here's a radical idea..... If politicians actually started speaking the truth, and started letting it be KNOWN that they say what they mean, and mean what they say, and use LEADERSHIP to sway people to previously unpopular positions (ala FDRoosevelt, JFKennedy, ect), then there's a bigger opportunity to capture some of those disaffected who are cynical to the point of just not giving a rip.

Cynicism is deadly, and going out of our way to CAUSE cynicism is..... IMHO, not only shooting oneself in the foot, but contributing to the downfall of the Democratic Party, and the US political system.

I don't think I'm at all alone is wishing to be able to actually TRUST a pol to be honest and straightforward.

There's a poll for ya.

Kanary
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. poor wording...
this:"You have to tell them the unpleasant truth."

should read: "The unpleasant Truth has to be told."

meaning, the Truth has to come from reliable sources.



A leader provides vision just as Kennedy and Clinton did..

you don't win elections by rolling in the mud with your opponent...

You provide insight into a better world and gird your vision with an iron clad plan.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
34. Let's see if this 'left-ish' President will put
some serious election reform into place. That will raise high fairly high in my estimation, if he manages to do that.

And he'll rise even higher if he undoes everything Dubya ever did.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
39. I Like Bev as well-
Her commentary is accurate and correct. The one glaring issue not factored into her commentary is WE CAN'T GO BACK to the way things were pre-Bush and 9/11.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing thats how we learn. We've all, including Bev, been duped by the Bush Gang.

Bush justifying his rush for retaliation, pointing first to A-stan, then suddenly the hunt for Osama, the Taliban, then Al-Quada..all the while we're subjected to tvs unrelenting bombardment 24/7 replays of the actual attacks. Followed by the round the clock coverage documenting the valiant rescue teams victim search efforts for almost a year.

Bev can castigate Kerry all she wants, and yes, I know, he is a bonesman. Theres good and bad in all organizations. Clinton isn't a bonesman, but he is Demolay, Bilderberg. These organizations are in global power and theres nothing we can do or say to change that dynamic.

The best we can do is elect the leadership that cares about people. Kennedy and Clinton's greatest attribute was just that..

"Taking care of People".

If Kerry uses that lexicon (set it to the tune of Taking Care of Business) as the foundation for his campaign; he'll blow Bush away hands down!
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Not EVERYONE was 'duped' by the Bush* Gang...
...Many of us knew what Bush* was all about BEFORE the 2000 campaign. Saying that politicians were duped into following his crazy agenda is an insult to all who were paying attention.

- They weren't duped into rubber stamping the Bush* agenda. 'They' knew that Bush* got into office with fraud and friends in high places. They knew Bush* was covering up wrongdoing when he hid the Reagan/Bush presidential papers. They knew it was wrong for the Bushies to establish a 'shadow government' without the consent of congress. They knew Bush* obstructed justice in the matter of investigating 9-11 and the Saudi connection. And they sure in the hell knew that Iraq posed no real threat to the United States.

- Perhaps the truth is that 'some' Democrats wanted what the Bushie / PNAC gang wanted...but were too afraid to come right out and say it?
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Re-read my post Q...
It never said politicians were duped.
It said, WE were duped.

If you remember correctly, any politician, who would not endorse Bush's plan would have been tarred and feathered as Unpatriotic. At the time there were threats to all of us being labeled as terrorists and UNPatriotic.

Most of them took a wait and see attitude and treaded softly at the time. I have no doubt, they were aware of the agenda.

You're really off your game, Q-

usually you contribute a more substantive well reasoned argument.
Today, you sound more like a Thuglican blowhard.




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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
42. damning article and correct that
this is not the time to be mealy-mouthed. ABB is not enough, people NEED SOMETHING TO VOTE FOR. Kerry never inspired me and I'm a die hard, lifelong (over 50), yellow dog Dem. I hope he pulls it out as he did in the primaries but I'm truly :scared:

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
45. Pure and simple
If you do not vote for that which you believe in, then what you believe in will never win.

If you do not champion what you believe in, then no one will ever be swayed to what you believe in.

If someone does not tell the people what is really wrong, they will never find out till it is too late.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Excellent!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Votes are not always counted... see the 2000 elections
Oversimplification of a solution is sometimes more dangerous than the problem.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. So fight that problem too
Ideas are not changed without introducing new ones.

Consider this. The DLC is focused on the center. This is because they believe that the undecided votes can make a difference in this closely devided nation. But then we realise that barely 50% of the people vote anyway. Its a myth that the biggest deciders of the elections are the center. Its the silent nonvoting majority that decide this thing.

If instead of fighting over the crumbs of the center we stood up for new ideas. If we set out to teach people how it could be better or should be better we may be able to stir that silent majority. By playing to the center we play to complacency. And that is what furthers the slumber of America.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. First order of business is receipts for voting machines..
since the last elecetion, the new diebold machines do not give receipts for a recount. Things have gone from bad to worse.

your response is way offf the solution.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Um that wasn't my solution to voting fraud
I was still on the issue of fighting for your values. Solving the Diebold issue is completely seperate and deserving of its own thread. And you may not have noticed but the DLC is not exactly raging a storm of protest about Diebold either.

One of my duties on the job is a white hat hacker. That is I probe our system to see if it is open to attack. You don't have to tell me what a problem Diebold presents. Even without their complicity in sabotaging the system its a bad idea.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
74. Pollyanna never faced a Bush administration...
feel good euphemisms and overly simplistic solutions do not win wars.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #74
83. Agreed
But creating a party of placid, placating do nothings didn't win any wars either.

By appealing to the center we diminish that which progresses. The center is about stagnation. A desire for stability over progress. The center is about comfort over progress. We are not going to change a dang thing by standing around and doing nothing. Oh but we can't do anything radical because the center would never stand for it.

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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #51
71. Isn't it strange that the DLCers are trying to appeal to the 'undecided'..
...voters when they've got their own 'decided' base ready and willing to vote for strong leadership?

- It's telling that the 'new' Democrats have abandoned their base for greener pastures...more willing to compromise with 'outsiders' than their own party.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. It's far from that pure or simple...
One of the biggest misgivings on the "left" is that all you have to do is to tell people the truth, and their eyes will suddenly be opened, starting a mass movement.

If this were true, Noam Chomsky would be serving out his fourth or fifth term in the United States Senate and Dennis Kucinich would be the Democratic nominee for President headed toward a landslide victory.

Obviously, this is not the current state of affairs, so I think that this means that you need something BEYOND simple "truth-telling" in order to motivate people. One of the key parts of that "something" is marketing. And this is where the RW absolutely KILLS us.

Their ideas are completely crackpot, but they're so good at marketing them that they STILL win out over ours. Until we realize that we need to dedicate resources toward effective marketing, we'll be stuck in the same conundrum as portraying politics as "pure and simple" when it is anything but that.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Who said speaking the truth was easy
Its not. The truth is still putting its shoes on by the time a lie has made it round the world. But its certainly never going to get out the door if you don't start speaking up for it.

Agreed, the RW has the marketting angle down. So figure out how to cut them off from that tactic. Push for changes in how the game is played. But never let the call for truth be silenced.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
65. Oy vey
Again we hear the simplistic false dichotomy that we have one of two choices

1) Speaking up while giving no consideration to the effectiveness of what we say

2) Not saying a word

I don't see where IrateCitizen called for silence and it would seem incredibly out of character for him if he started now.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I wasn't responding to a call for tactics
I was responding to his claim that simply telling a person the truth sets them free. I agree that you have to have a sense of tactics. But at the same time you cannot give up your ideals in pursuing them. Keep an eye on how the tactics may effect your ideals or you will lose on both counts.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. IMO, that's what IC meant
That's why I didn't understand the "silence" part of your comments.

One of the things that bother me about the whole "we can't let ourselves be silenced" argument is that those who make it rarely acknowledge, let alone discuss, the need to "market" their ideas. All they want is someone to "stand up" on principle without regard for the consequences.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. Consequences
Think it through. To use a tired old metaphore, suppose I am beating you with a stick. Do you want me to speed up or slow down? This is the tactic offered by the DLC. They are not suggesting that we stop.

There seems to be no resistance to the slide to the right evidenced in the DLC. They have fully committed themself to the notion that the only place to advance is to the right. They have cut off any promotion of strong resistance to corpratism. True they stand up for some issues that differentiate the left and the right. But its sort of like fixing the light bulbs while the house is burning down.

The consequences of leaning to the right is we move to the right. We don't stop. We don't move back to the left. We continue in the path the Conservatives get to pick. We give them the lead and we are forced to follow. We do not define the arena. We are lead to our own defeat. We appear to be poll following flipflops to the public and thus undermine all our tactical maneuvors to appear more moderate. We undermine ourselves.

Seriously go take a look at the book the Art of War. There is a section about choosing where to fight battles. You do not fight them on the enemies ground of death. You bring them to your ground of death where you have the advantage. The DLC is dragging us into the Republicans machine. We are not the party of Corporate advancement. We are not opposed to it, as long as it benefits the people. But the Conservatives have pegged themself to the notion that what is good for GM is good for the people. This simply is not true.

Our strength is in We The People. We need to drag them into our territory. We cannot follow the snake into their hole and expect to win. We need to remind the people that promote the General Welfare is part of the foundation of this country. That it is the welfare of the people, and not the Corporations that this is intended for. We need to make this a country of the people, for the people, and by the people. We need to show them that Corporations are not their best friends. That they can survive and flourish without being beholden to them. We need to take back this country and this is not going to be accomplished by being meek and trying to nudge a crumb free here or a morsel there.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. And your post simply confirms my initial point, Az
I wasn't saying in any way, shape or form that we should shy away from truth. What I was suggesting is that we need to pay a little more attention to the way in which the truth is PACKAGED.

We need to concentrate more on marketing in order to PERSUADE, and less on outrage -- which tends more to ALIENATE. How do you think the average person on the street will react if you go up to them and simply start in about Bush being a war criminal, or MIHOP, or anything like that? You may be telling them the truth, but they'll completely discount anything you say. But if you just give them a little bit here and there, they might listen to you. That's the marketing and packaging I'm referring to.

Oh, and while I'm at it -- we need to be more optimistic. It seems that optimism is completely lost on the left these days. Hell, I notice it in many of the books I read nowadays -- everything is doom and gloom. A refreshing change to that was a book I read by William Greider -- The Soul of Capitalism. It was refreshing because it didn't dwell on pointing out everything that was wrong with the current economic system, but instead concentrated on proposing real, workable solutions and showing real-life cases of people attempting to revolutionize the way in which we look at and live in our economy. A review of the book characterized its "hopeful liberalism" as the equivalent of seeing a woolly mammoth, characterizing the rarity of such sentiments nowadays.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. Tactics
Are very necissary. I just do not see what the DLC is currently doing as tacitcally aimed at moving back to the left in any way. Instead they are focused on placating the center and digging up more corporate sponsors.


Agreed, we cannot smack the people in the face and make them see things our way. But by the same token we are not going to wake them up at all if we do not make some effort. I am not calling for revolution. I still believe there is some hope for the system and that they can be brought around. I just don't see it happening with the current tactics and leaders we have in the DLC.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. I don't really disagree with you on this, Az...
I just do not see what the DLC is currently doing as tacitcally aimed at moving back to the left in any way. Instead they are focused on placating the center and digging up more corporate sponsors.

The DLC is focused on holding on to, and expanding their base of power, pure and simple. I don't doubt that they started out with good aims, because liberalism had grown stale by the 1970's and 1980's and really needed a kick in the pants. The problem is that they have now risen to positions of power and their aims have shifted from promoting new ideas and different ways of thinking about things to simply holding on to their power. Since they see the most immediate threat to that power as coming from the "left" (despite our disorganization), they feel compelled to come after us first.

I still believe there is some hope for the system and that they can be brought around. I just don't see it happening with the current tactics and leaders we have in the DLC.

Well, then it seems its up to us to develop our own organizations and tactics to take over the party machinery, does it not? The problem is, trying to organize on the left is like herding cats.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
69. Do you have evidence to back that up?
It seems to me that a candidate who is pro-choice, pro-affermative action, anti-death penalty, pro-environment, pro-progressive taxes, pro-education, pro-health care, pro-separation of church and state and pro-union is a leftist. That's why the Bush administration is attacking him for being too liberal. Can you tell me where I'm wrong, Q?

Oh yeah, he'll put his domestic agenda on hold until we pay back some of Dubya's debt. Well, no shit!!!! How in the hell can we expect to get anything at all -- for example, let's say universal health care -- if we are running a half trillion dollar deficit every year? Can you explain that one to me? How would that be possible? I would like an answer, please.

Kerry will close corporate tax loopholes and raise taxes on those making over $200,000 per year. This will get us in a better fiscal situation, and then, and only then can we possibly think about more spending. We have to put out the fire in our house before we make some beautiful additions to it.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. no, GOPBasher, they DON'T have evidence to back it up
...they have a couple of pet issues and if a candidate doesn't pass the ideological litmus tests regarding those, they're branded "Bush lite."
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Campaign promises...
...can't always be believed. If Kerry follows the DLC gameplan he'll try to appease corporations (in return for donations) while making weak gestures towards forwarding Democratic issues.

- A more important question would be: will the DLCers rock the boat and reverse the many harmful Bush* policies and risk pissing off the corporate donors that buy favors from politicians?
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. You're right, we can't always believe campaign promises,
which is why we should look at his record. His record shows he's one of the most liberal senators in the country -- not quite a Wellstone or Feingold, but just a bit to the right of them.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Just to clarify one thing,
if we actually get McCain on our ticket, then I'll agree with you, that we're going too far to the right. Although I like McCain personally, he's still a conservative Republican with whom I disagree on most issues.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. The DLCers have...
...brainwashed Democrats into believing that the things we have fought for over the last five decades can be compromised away in order to keep a seat at the table of power. From Abortion to worker's rights to Welfare...they have adopted a watered down version of the RWing agenda and now want to force it on the entire Democratic party.

- DLCers and NeoDems don't understand (or seem to care) why the Democratic voter base is abandoning them. I think it's safe to say that the majority of the base consists of the poor, workers, minorities and the disenfranchised....the very groups who have little or no money to contribute to campaigns. All these groups have to offer is their vote.

- But as we saw in the 2000 election...a politician no longer needs a majority of votes in order to take office. They can use the vast sums of money from 'special interests' to manipulate the results or buy judges who decide which ballots can be rejected. Hundreds of thousands of votes aren't even counted in national elections due to 'mistakes' and voting machine failures. Less than half the voting population shows up to vote.

- What this adds up to is a country where the rich buy politicans, elections and office using the facade of democracy to validate the process. The DLC seems quite willing to participate in this scam as long as they're promised a seat at the king's table.
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