LIHOP/MIHOP makes us look crazy in front of other LIBERALS

[mot78]

Does anyone realize that most Democrats DON'T believe in LIHOP/MIHOP? I told a friend of mine who reviles * about DU a while back and he stopped lurking because of this conspiracy crapola.
...I don't dismiss LIHOP entirely, but I haven't seen ANY shread of evidence to make me believe it. And MIHOP is something Ar Bell could dream up.

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. I think LIHOP is a possibility..

I think they are all possibilities, really.

But I agree that until you have proof you just hurt the cause.

[Skittles]

2. we are a big, big tent here Mot

that's what makes us liberals. If your friend couldn't handle it, he's better of somewhere else.

[jjmalonejr]

3. I agree.

There's NO DOUBT that something stinks about 9/11, and we're not getting the whole story.

That could mean LIHOP, but I'm still not convinced and to preach it like Gospel when we really don't know the truth makes us look like tinfoil hatters.

I don't dismiss MIHOP entirely either, but it's a pretty HUGE leap.

[mot78]

8. A lot of the theories I've heard for MIHOP go beyond rational

Controlled 7 WTC demolition? THe CIA or Mossad staging it? Fake, remote controlled planes being flown into the WTC? And planes attatched to missiles flown into the Towers.

[mouse7]

33. Welcome to the internet. Ignore what you don't like.

If you don't like the threads, click one button, and they disappear.

Please remember that the most irrational part of 9/11 is that 19 people with no military background and little pilot training managed to hijack airplanes and crash them into and destroy both towers of the WTC and the Pentagon, and they were directed from a cave in Central Asia.

[seemslikeadream]

4. Are you crazy?

paulthompson


Village Voice: Timeline of Tragedy (article on my 9/11 timeline!)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=499237&mesg_id=499237

[LoZoccolo]

5. It's a suspicion = proof thing I don't like.

Usually you hear words like "clearly" and "undeniably" where they really shouldn't be.

People think conspiracy theories are harmless, but think about this...Timothy McVeigh seemed to be into them.

[FreakinDJ]

6. Your right

The Ratpukes have effectively framed us as "Conspiracy Theorist". Need to rope them in slow and let them find out for them selves.

Best arguments are Criminal Negligence and the Plame Outing

[billbuckhead]

7. Only problem is that the more you look,the more you believe,they're guilty

Prince Bandar? Come on. The Bush regime is so close to "Reichstage Redux" that they ought to pay the Nazi party royalties.

[Raster]

9. ...you say LIHOP, I say MIHOP, let's call the whole thing off...

[osaMABUSh]

23. you say Osama I say Usama, you say Sadomm I say Sad-dam

believe there's a comedy skit here somewhere

[Raster]

35. in a very Mel Brooksian kind of way...

[Bombtrack]

10. Thank you, agree 100%, but you'll probably get flamed

The thing with all these "theorists" is they have no real workable theories. No step by step scenarios of how it could happen. Because they haven't bothered to really think about what these cloudy, murky, accusations of guilt towards all these people in our government would take to actually plan, coordinate and conceil genocide towards America.

[mouse7]

15. More rants from bombtrack on a LIHOP thread

There's abundant theories that have been presented. You just feel a need to whine about LIHOP threads, so you made this up.

[bobbyboucher]

54. Perfect Repube talking points,

You sure carry a great deal of water for those other guys.

[mouse7]

11. If your friend doesn't believe in open inquiry, then he's not liberal.

Open inquiry is one of the most important values in liberalism.

I believe in the old rule, "There's no such thing as a stupid question."

[mot78]

12. "If your friend doesn't believe in open inquiry, then he's not liberal."

This pretty much backs up a thread I did about how some here feel you're a DINO if you shun LIHOP/MIHOP.

[mouse7]

26. You aren't "shunning" LIHOP/MIHOP if you are on the threads

You are actively stating that asking questions is stupid. "Shunning" would be not having anything to do with the LIHOP/MIHOP threads.

[mitchum]

37. Okay, how about "if your friend doesn't believe in open inquiry...

then he's not really CONCERNED"? :)
Is that better?
works for me

[dpibel]

47. Who said that?

I've read a lot of LIHOP/MIHOP threads, and have no recollection of ever seeing a statement that, in order to have a true D associated with your name, you had to believe any particular thing about the WTC/Pentagon attacks.

You might get called ignorant. You might get called asleep. You might get called a sheeple. But DINO? I don't think so.

Even if you could find a person or two who's said such a thing, perhaps you should meditate for a moment on the fact that this is (1) modern American discourse and (2) the internet. Both of those factors tend to involve more than a little hyperbole.

As for your confusion over "doesn't believe in free inquiry is not a liberal," you aren't really serious are you? You can, can't you, distinguish between fostering open inquiry and demanding adherence to one point of view? It's a pretty straightforward distinction.

[TrueD]

13. I'm new

What the heck is LIHOP and MIHOP?

[mouse7]

Both have to do with Bush White House and 9/11

LIHOP = Let it (9/11) happen on purpose.
MIHOP = Made it (9/11) happen on purpose.

[TrueD]

14. I'm new

What the heck is LIHOP and MIHOP?

[mot78]

17. Ok

LIHOP= Let It Happen On Purpose, mean Bush knew about 9/11 and let it happen for political gains

MIHOP= Made It Happen On Purpose, meaning Bush orchestrated 9/11 and NOT Bin Laden.

[TrueD]

43. Ahhh

I tend to believe that regardless of who was president they would have done everything to stop it. It's not political. I don't think any patriotic American would believe LIHOP/MIHOP for FDR and Pearl Harbor and so I don't believe it for Bush either.

The only reason I can think that people would believe this is to gain a partisan political advantage by portraying the other party as evil. Disagreeing with the opposition is one thing, but that disagreement doesn't make them any less American. When we are attacked, we are all Americans.

[frylock]

67. many "patriotic americans" wouldn't believe operation northwoods..

40 years ago, or if I tried to explain to you about MKULTRA 30 years back, I would have been dismissed as some sort of lunatic.

The only real "conspiracy theory" is the Official Story of 9/11©.

[Jim Sagle]

16. Check out this little clip of the Resident, and then blow off LIHOP/MIHOP:

http://images.indymedia.org/imc/washingtondc/media/video/6/9_11laugh.mpg

Can you say "blatantly guilty knowledge"? I knew you could.

[mot78]

21. Is this the one where he comments on 9/11 at the Florida school?

One reason I don't believe LIHOP is because he still looked pretty shocked after 9/11. However, I don't rule out LIHOP because it's easy to orchestrate, whereas MIHOP takes a lot of planning for people not to know, what with too many people involved and all.

[Jim Sagle]

34. I suggest you view the clip yourself.

[doni_georgia]

86. Have to agree here - no shock on his face at the school

That clip of Bush at the Fl elementary school speaks volumes. There are just way too many unanswered questions about 9/11. Whether Bush LIHOP, MIHOP, or was just supremely incompetent - I don't know.

[Egalitarian]

18. This points out

the need for a new ethic within our government. We need more transparancy. Currently the secrecy and SPIN breeds all manner of conspiracy theories. There's a sort of yin/yang relationship here I think.

As to turning off your friend I'm not sure what to say other than "better a conspiracy theory than reality". Open minds, open governments.

[Nlighten1]

19. I got the same thing from some of my "liberal" friends about LIHOP.

But it doesn't surprise me because the sleeping gas that gets emitted into everyone's homes every night from CNN, FOX, etc is very strong.

[Dover]

20. How do you know what "most Democrats" believe?

Sorry Mot, but I think your post is more inappropriate than those you consider offensive.

No one took issue with your Sears Tower theory, so if you'd like similar tolerance, then tolerate other's beliefs. That's what Dems are all about.

[Gin]

22. color me "crazy"...I believe both are possible.

gin

[mot78]

25. Most liberals I know reject LIHOP/MIHOP

[Dover]

31. Well, perhaps they'd take issue with your post in the Meeting Rm. too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=111&topic_id=21254&mesg_id=21254

Should that stop you from inquiries? You're just plain wrong on this one. If your liberal "friends" are so intolerant, why don't you ask them what it means to be liberal.

[DenverDem]

40. Most liberals I know accept MIHOP

so there. My vote trumps your vote.

Exactly how many liberals DO you know, anyway?

[Generator]

24. My husband is Mr. anti conspiracy

BUT he calls it "so recklessly incompetent you will never be able to tell if they let it happen on purpose."

But honestly they "let it happen" in the sense that they weren't on their toes. I expect my government to protect me, I expect more of my government not less. I will not let them off the hook. If I had fouled up this badly at any job I would be fired. It's what most of BushCo deserves. You fail this badly you go bye-bye. And the fact that no one has been fired but in fact promoted or lauded for the handling of 9/11 proves something, maybe not guilt, but it certainly exlains my outrage. CALL ME CRAZY I don't care.

[charlie]

27. This again?

Some days you're climbing into the LIHOP wagon yourself. Other days you're smacking your head for considering it. Let it go, the "makes us look crazy" argument is a load of crap.

[mot78]

32. Like I said, I consider LIHOP, but I don't believe it outright

[charlie]

38. And like I said

"makes us look crazy" is a load of crap. Why the heck do you even consider it ("But it's looking more like LIHOP every day." -- mot78) if the subject is beyond the pale?

[lastknowngood]

28. Look we are all crazy we can see the connections and the face

behind the mask. If you are intelligent your considered either crazy or a radical. Ask those same "Liberals" your so inclined to need their opinions a few questions.
1 year ago
we said there were no connections between 911 and Iraq
were we crazy
1 year ago
we said there were no connections between OBL and Iraq
were we crazy
1 year ago
we pointed out PNAC and their war plans from the 90s
were we crazy
1 year ago
we said the shrub was lying about newkular weapons in Iraq
were we crazy
1 year ago
we said that Iraq would be a blood bath
were we crazy
1 year ago
we said bush was incapable of completing a coherent sentence
were we crazy

should I go on?

No were not crazy were intelligent and we gather our news and information from around the world. I read the WP USA Al Jazeera
Debka file the BBC and other sources. Were not crazy were informed we only sound crazy to the uninformed and the ignorant.

[LoZoccolo]

59. Therefore any crazy theory = true!

Ask me about Herbalife.

[Warpy]

29. I'm the world's biggest skeptic

....and I love ripping apart elegant conspiracy theories in the firm belief that most of the people accused of conspiring are far less bright than the theorists who come up with the conspiracies after the fact.

However, I find myself squarely in the LIHOP camp for a few reasons, the biggest of which is Bush's performance at the Booker School on the morning of 9/11. The film is archived at Buzzflash, and if you haven't seen it, I suggest you do.

There are only two reasons for his just sitting there at a meaningless photo op after he'd been told there had been not one but two arilines crashed into the WTC: either he's completely witless and out of the loop and utterly programmed, or he knew. My money's on the latter, as even a witless robotic doofus would have excused himself to go to a phone and get more information, even if he had no real job to do. Bush didn't. He SAT THERE. After 10 minutes, he shmoozed with the kiddies and acted for all the world like they'd just told him his fresh suit would be delayed a few minutes from the hotel cleaners. He had NO CURIOUSITY. He didn't want to know what it looked like. He didn't want to see what damage the buildings suffered. HE SAT THERE.

Add to that the constant torrent of self contradiction and outright lies flooding from the Bush gang to the handpicked and "tame" 9/11 commission, and you get quite a picture. Add to that the way Asscrock thought commercial ariliners were too dangerous a month before 9/11, and there's another piece. Add to that the fact that the Air Force was ordered to STAND DOWN instead of sending intercept planes up within 10 minutes of the first hijacking (not even the crash), and you get another piece of this puzzle.

Yes, I hate conspiracies. However, Bushco seized power against the will of the majority and under some very shady legal wrangling at the top. They needed to consolidate power. They let it happen.

[Goldmund]

30. Bullshit.

Is it because it insults our royal office?

Is it unpatriotic, to suggest that our royal master could me a murderer?

The motive is there (www.newamericancentury.com -- click on "Rebuliding American Defenses"), *'s whole presidency has been based on that one event (wonder what he would be doing if there had been no 9/11, huh?), there are all kinds of signs pointing to it (too numerous to list) -- at this point, to not at least demand an investigation, is ludicrous.

This isn't a goddamn monarchy. Nobody's above or below anything, including the pResident.

[Octafish]

36. Call me a conspiracy nut or crazy, I don't care which.

I'll tell everybody who's interested what I think. Sometimes, they get it. Sometimes, they don't. If a person is interested in learning about the topic, I'll often ask them if they knew:

• The dust from selection 2000 hasn't settled and Conescenda's briefed about Osama
• Paul O'Neill said Bush planning for Iraq war
• Kenny Boy and ENRON are ripping off California.
• Sneer's secret energy policy calls for, basically, stealing the world's oil
• Ashcan stopped flying commercial in July 2001
• Smirk was on vac for a month in August 2001
• Bush briefed: Osama wants to hijack American airliners to "strike inside the United States and does nothing
• The princes of the White House started taking Cipro before 9-11
• On 9-11 Carlyle Group meets, in attendance are Poppy Bush and representatives of the bin Laden clan.
• After 9-11, the first thing Bush wanted to do was go to war with Iraq, Tony Blair said so.
• Poodle Tony also said he had to talk the unelected moron into going after the Taliban, first.

There's more stuff, but that's about all I can stomach seeing in print right now. Down with the Bush Organized Crime Family.

[seemslikeadream]

50. YOU ARE A CONSPIRACY NUT OR JUST CRAZY

:HI:

[bobbyboucher]

52. How does one go about

breathing sand?

[seemslikeadream]

63. There's no rest in denial

(Hess)
Walking on the coals til you can't feel your feet
Another foot further is just a stone's throw from misery
Now there's a better way than living your life
Without "charity case"
Tagged on you before you're breathing sand
Now the wall breaks all ties
You've tripped chasing time
To chip away and step inside this old man
The foul rain of time has dripped through your mind
And you slip away
The rest is feared by all men
To rot in a state of nowhere is life's worst disease
To never really notice is a divine lack of luxury
Sure we'll all recount the miracles
But less revealing wounds will have captured the prize
Kingdoms falling down fertilizing weary seeds
Passing tortured crowns to the souls that lonely bleed
There's no rest in denial
I can't heal the land, I can't breathe the sand
Everybody's life is a love/hate affair

[bobbyboucher]

89. Funny you should post that.

Give yours a rest. Nice stretch on the poem too.

[seemslikeadream]

90. Why don't you just spit it out

What IS your problem?

[bobbyboucher]

91. That was quick, I have no problem, sorry

if it seems so. I might be a tad defensive though and for that I apologize.

:crazy:

[seemslikeadream]

92. Alright I'll admit I'm very confused

breathing sand could mean a number of things. At first I considered it offensive then I thought maybe you were refering to the song. Then you post this "Give yours a rest" I can't figure what you're saying? And why would you be defensive?

[Octafish]

81. Wow! I’m having a flashback!

The Chicago Seven, er, Eight, er, whatever, was one of the great events of an era. Here’s what Abbie Hoffman said, before he got gagged by the judge:

"It's going to be a combination Scopes trial, revolution in the streets, Woodstock Festival and People's Park, all rolled into one."
-- Abbie Hoffman, commenting on the upcoming "Chicago 7" trial

Although I never met him, I feel Abbie and I are kindred spirits. Here's what he had to say about Poppy Bush and what Treason he entered into with the Ayatollah Khomeini to sabotage President Carter’s efforts to rescue the hostages held in Iran:

http://democracyunbound.com/playboy1088.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Chicago7/Account.html


Those interested in the subject of stopping the Bush Organized Crime Family might enjoy:

http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/october-surprise.html

http://www.freedomfiles.org/movies/

http://www.democracyunbound.com/reaganbush.html

Thanks, seemslikeadream!

[seemslikeadream]

84. If you're still flashin' Octafish - Pride of Man broken in the dust again

Turn around,
go back down,
back the way you came,
Can't you see that flash of fire ten times brighter than the day?
And behold a mighty city broken in the dust again,
Oh God, Pride of Man, broken in the dust again.

Turn around,
go back down,
back the way you came,
Babylon is laid to waste, Egypt's buried in her shame,
The mighty men are all beaten down, their kings are fallen in the ways,
Oh God, Pride of Man, broken in the dust again.

Turn around,
go back down,
back the way you came,
Terror is on every side, lo our leaders are dismayed.
For those who place their faith in fire, their faith in fire shall be
repaid,
Oh God, Pride of Man, broken in the dust again.

Turn around,
go back down,
back the way you came,
And shout a warning unto the nation that the sword of God is raised.
Yes, Babylon, that mighty city, rich in treasures, wide in fame,
Oh God, Pride of Man, broken in the dust again.

The meek shall cause your tower to fall, make of you a pyre of flame,
Oh you who dwell on many waters, rich in treasures, wide in fame.
you bow unto your God of gold, your pride of might shall be a shame,
For only God can lead His people back unto the Earth again.

Oh God, Pride of Man, broken in the dust again.
A Holy mountain be restored, and mercy on that people, that people

Quicksilver Messenger Service Pride Of Man




*

[bobbieinok]

87. end of the article says a lot -beginning to apply to today???

....
There is no simple "yes" or "no" answer to the question of whether the Chicago defendants intended to incite a riot in Chicago in 1968. Abbie Hoffman said, "I don't know whether I'm innocent or I'm guilty." The reason for the confusion--as Norman Mailer pointed out--was that the alleged conspirators "understood that you didn't have to attack the fortress anymore." All they had to do was "surround it, make faces at the people inside and let them have nervous breakdowns and destroy themselves."



http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Chicago7/Account.html

[ElementaryPenguin]

94. With the way the BFEE/PNAC mob has tipped their hat with Iraq...

Who can outright dismiss LIHOP/MIHOP as something inconceivable - especially when these monsters were in such dire need of a new Pearl Harbor? 47 minutes AFTER the second World Trade Center is hit - and the whole world knows these are terrorist attacks from the air, Washington D.C., our nation's capitol, is left completely defenseless in the air?? WTF?? And of all the 285 million Americans who could be anthraxed, it's the opposition (to the Patriot Act) leader, Tom Daschle, who receives enough to kill 100,000 - and Bush and Cheney know to take Cipro (Anthrax vaccine which has strong side effects) a month before anyone is attacked?? Are they still taking Cipro since the War on Terror is going full bore? If not, why not??

The truth is, the track record of this ruthless gang suggests that THEY LEAVE NOTHING TO CHANCE!!

:mad:

[DenverDem]

39. Anyone NOT considering LIHOP/MIHOP. . . IS CRAZY.

It was MIHOP and the sooner we stop living in cowardly denial, the better our chances of surviving these socipathological maniacs.

[wasichu]

41. my beliefs arent contingent upon what others think

Thats what it means to be an adult.

[RC]

42. The problem with/against LIHOP & MIHOP

is that most people thinks the government functions as a single entity. It does not. Not in any way shape or form. The different parts have ongoing ego and turf wars.

bu$h could very well not know what was really going on. Maybe he was in on a plane hijacking and hostage situation. However there is more than enough evidence that there were people in the FBI and CIA & bu$h's cabinet, actively derailing and stonewalling investigations in the field that pointed toward what really was going down.

It is my opinion cheney, rumsfield, etc., know a lot more than they will divulge. They will be charged with War Crimes if they do.

BTW, I lean toward MIHOP.

[ContinentalOp]

56. Exactly!

Not to go too far out on a limb here but I think that was the problem with the X-Files and the influence it has had on our society. The show portrayed FBI agents as heroes who were uncovering evil deeds perpetrated by "The Government." This kind of overly simplistic thinking is what leads to the right wing anti "government" tendencies (McVeigh, "small gov", anti-tax, etc.) and allows the rest of the mainstream, centrist population to block out any questioning by shouting "crazy conspiracy theory."

This kind of thinking completely overlooks real documented covert ops, illegal schemes and yes: "conspiracies" commited by various agencies and factions within the government, corporate world, and organized crime. The point of MIHOP is not that Bush himself actually sat down and drew up a plan! I couldn't care less what he did or didn't know, it still could be MIHOP. And is it supposed to be comforting to pin the crime on Osama Bin Laden, a man who has ties to the CIA and the Bush family? THAT is supposed to disprove MIHOP?

As far as I see it the distinction between LIHOP-MIHOP is nothing but a semantic argument. The idea that they let it happen is bad enough and by now we have abundant evidence that the administration let it happen whether intentionally or through gross negligence. I don't expect everyone to make the final inferences that lead to MIHOP and of course it will never be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But talking about it is hardly hurting liberals or the democratic party! I've heard people talking about this since 9-12 and only now are the revelations coming out. So if anything these "crazy conspiracy theories" help bring out more information and explanations.

[riverwalker]

44. 18 months ago, protesting the war made us look crazy

I am open to everything.

[Carolina]

45. to each his own

and adios to your "Dem" friend. If that's why he quit lurking, then good riddance. First off, how can you or your friend speak for MOST Democrats? Second, the thing that distinguishes us (DUers) from them (freepers, repukes in general) is our openness and acceptance of many things and many possibilities. There are so many threads in different categories here at DU, that if your friend was turned off by LIHOP/MIHOP alone, then that's his problem, not ours.

Personally, I'm a believer. And the MORE I READ along with the more BushCo wants kept secret, the stronger my beliefs. Never forget the planned Operation Northwoods ...

BTW, no evidence? Why no NORAD response when the events of 9/11 were not only considered by the Pentagon (and yes, this was a story on yesterday's ABC Evening News) but also there had been attempts at war games for just such a 9/11 scenario. Moreover, seems the Air Force responded mighty rapidly to golfer Paine Stewart's jet when it went off course without communication, but gee, 4 commercial aircraft get hijacked and nada, zip, nilch. Hmmm ... And the Saudi's are allowed to FLY away home without hesitation or questioning while the rest of America is in lockdown, stranded at airports... This is just a sample of the starnge coincidences but the list lengthy. No evidence, my ass. The whole story, aka the truth, probaly won't come out in our lifetimes since as his self-designated holiness proclaimed the other night regarding history's judgment: WTF , we'll all be dead!

[ComerPerro]

46. And you never will see any evidence

But, you will never see anything from this administration.
Thats the way they are.

[DaveSZ]

48. I've been saying for awhile

It makes some of you guys look little better than the pukes talking about Clinton killing Vince Foster.

:P

[leesa]

49. So keep your blinders on. Whatever you like.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about mainstream dems because they have allowed things to sink so low and have allowed the GOP to batter them senseless for no reason at all.
If you believe the non-sensical fairy tale told us by our government of a dialysis dependent cave dweller pulling off 9-11 without any assistance from our government, well, then I guess you would believe anything!

[Carolina]

53. oh, I like that

"the non-sensical fairy tale told us by our government of a dialysis dependent cave dweller pulling off 9-11 without any assistance ..."

Good one, leesa.

[bobbyboucher]

51. If you believe that

a hijacked commercial airliner crashed into the Pentagon, I'll say that again, the Pentagon, over an hour after two hijacked planes crashed into the WTC, without the slightest interruption, without something fishy going on, then you aren't breathing air, pal.

Even without the long list of warnings, something is amiss.

One more thing, don't try to speak for anyone but yourself.

[Solly Mack]

55. Hi. I'm from the govt. and I'm here to help.

Because everyone knows your govt. would never ever lie to you. Everyone knows your govt. is pristine, above reproach, and would never ever stoop to anything criminal. Your govt. has your best interests at heart.

Trust me.

Shake the tree........shake it hard. Rock the boat...rock it hard...and never stop rocking it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. You've found no evidence?...

You either haven't been looking, or don't want to look.

Which is it?

[charlie]

61. A tired trope

Asserting that "not one shred of evidence" has been presented, and conflating that with categorical proof. Of course he's seen convincing evidence, on certain days he's been open to LIHOP. If weighing compelling evidence in the absence of hard proof is an exercise in tinfoil, then our jury system is a grand example of tinfoillery, an affront to justice that needs to be abolished.

[AgadorSparticus]

58. It's always recieved as "Crazy" because there's no tangible evidence....

UNTIL.... bits and pieces of the truth come floating up to the surface and it bites us all in the ass. OR someone gets impeached or goes to jail.

[bpilgrim]

60. LIHOP/MIHOP

peace

[agincourt]

62. If there was LIHOP,

we know for sure the corporate media won't cover it. It took them four years to look at gwb's national guard service, or lack there of. I guess that just leaves us.

[Ladyhawk]

64. I suspect LIHOP, but it might be that the * admin is unbelievably...

...incompetent. After *'s press conference, my opinion of his intellect pretty much bottomed out. I think it's possible * wasn't in the loop. He's too stupid to have masterminded a LIHOP or MIHOP situation. Geez, my pet snake is smarter than that bastard.

[bpilgrim]

65. what if one of the trade centers was downed by CONTROLLED DEMOLITION

wtc7 came down just like one...

The precisely vertical collapse of WTC 7 around 5:20 on the afternoon of September 11th necessitated that all of the load-bearing columns be broken at the same moment. Inflicting such damage with the precision required to prevent the building from toppling and damaging adjacent buildings is what the science of controlled demolition is all about. No random events, such as fires or explosions, could be expected result in such a tidy and complete collapse.

Moreover, it is a well-known fact that fire has never caused any steel framed highrise building to collapse in any manner, let alone with the vertical precision of Building 7's destruction. 1

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/wtc7.html

:shrug:

peace

[MrSlayer]

66. Yes, and a lot of people believe Oswald acted alone.

"Our government would NEVER do something like that!"

The fuck they wouldn't.

[LoZoccolo]

68. Don't get discouraged by this thread, mot78.

I have a theory about it: most of the rational people who don't feel "suspicion = proof" steer clear of anything LIHOP/MIHOP because they've given up trying to change anyone's mind long ago. The people that believe it see an opportunity to tell us all that we are naive and have blinders on because if repetition and namecalling don't convert us, what will?

Personally, I'm not worried about LIHOP/MIHOP making us look crazy. Not just worried, I should say. I'm concerned because the people that believe LIHOP/MIHOP are crazy.

To y'all: it is utter nucking futty to think that you can uncover a government plot of this magnitude with information you gleaned sitting in your apartment. I'm sorry - if you are one of these people who believe this right now, you are a little bit bonkers. You have an exaggerated sense of your own importance, and a morbid sense of your own responsibility. I am one of your best friends for telling you this. Think of how much you'll this summer compared to last, the sun, the smell of grass, the chicks, now that you know you don't have to make sure everyone knows. Think of how all that attention to detail can be used debunking the right's mendacious propaganda for the next however-many months. Those friends might start hanging out with you again. Laugh a little when you tell them you're sorry, and they'll laugh a little with you - offer to head out to Denny's, your treat, so they know you're interested in having fun again. Also, remember the guy (it's always a guy) who banged you into submission with "what are you naive" and "you just don't want to believe"? He doesn't seem like much of a friend now, does he? Be sure to tell him to "don't be that guy". Invest in the potential future duped.

[LunaC]

69. Looking for a plausible explanation for this sequence of events.....

Perhaps your friend would be kind enough to offer one before judging some of us as crazy whackos!

In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. It was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so a gas pipeline could be built there.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7969.pdf.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm


Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html


Meanwhile, the U.S. Embassy in the UAE received a call that Bin Laden supporters were in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives. It was rumored that Bin Laden was interested in hijacking U.S. aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/04/10/whitehouse.pdf


In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html


In September 2001 the "catastrophic and catalyzing" modern-day Pearl Harbor envisioned years earlier by the PNAC came to pass when the WTC and Pentagon were attacked with U.S. aircraft. Immediately, the finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911 hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell.

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=1454238160


In October 2001, with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "War On Terror" and the hunt for Osama began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting



To put this in its proper context, please see "The Whispering Campaign" link below.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

70. LIHOP/MIHOP

LIHOP is weak, like letting * cop to a misdemeanor.
MIHOP is better, but is like letting * cop a plea to a Class B felony.

The way I see it is DIFFAP or "DID IT FOR FUN AND PROFIT".

The brutal manner in which * and crew conduct their "business" is more than enough proof of their murderous intent.

[Q]

71. We don't need...

...the RWingers to suppress our freedom of speech...the LWingers will do it for us.

- Isn't the point here that we should be able to discuss any subject we want without being harassed for our views? What YOU and others believe is besides the point.

- America is becoming like a third world banana republic...where the masses are encouraged to say nothing if they can't say something good about their dictator.

[FlashHarry]

72. Agreed.

Though I don't think LIHOP is totally outside the realm of possibility, I'm guessing it's more a case of the admin. being incompetent and focusing on Iraq rather than on Al Qaeda.

I think the whole LIHOP/MIHOP thing makes us look like complete wack-jobs and gives the Right fodder for attacking us.

We can win this election on facts alone.

[Q]

74. "Us"?

- Whom are you talking about exactly when you say 'us'? Don't discuss these issues if you're worried about how the real 'wack-jobs' think about 'us'.

- In my opinion...this reluctance to expose the Bush* administration is coming from the 'new' Democrats in the party who are afraid to rock the boat in any manner. These are the same people/politicians that have given Bush* a free pass from the very beginning. They're the compromisers, fence-sitters and enablers.

- The Democratic party is split in half. One half wants the whole truth about the Bush* government and the other half is quite willing to look the other way so they don't become a target of Limbaugh or other RWing talking heads.

- Those who govern this country outside the restraints of the Constitution, coequal branches of government and checks and balances depend on Americans dismissing 'conspiracy theories' before learning all the facts. Hell...most of them don't even WANT to know the facts.

[FlashHarry]

77. Excuse me.

Do you have some concrete facts that show that the admin. was complicit in the 9/11 tragedy?

And when I say us, I'm referring to all those who desire Bush's ouster--that includes moderates, too.

[Q]

79. You're making a big mistake...

...if you equate the quest for the truth about 9-11/Iraq with the 'ouster' of Bush*. One has nothing to do with the other. It's a RWing talking point that those who want the whole truth are only out to 'get' Bush* like THEY were out to 'get Clinton'.

- Unlike a blowjob in the WH...9-11 and the Iraq invasion directly involves how this country is governed and has serious implications on the very future of our country.

- Information is being withheld (by the corporate media) that could connect the dots to many things related to these issues. How many Americans are aware of the CLOSE relationship between the country (Saudi) of most of the hijackers and the Bush* government/family? The whole point of withholding this information is to prevent The People from easily connecting those dots.

- Secrecy breeds conspiracy theories. The Bush* government is the most secretive in the history of the US. It should be obvious to everyone by now that they're trying to HIDE something...especially when you consider where all this begins: the fraud and corruption surrounding the 2000 election...hiding of the Reagan/Bush presidential papers...refusing to release PUBLIC information concerning national energy policy...the secret meetings with the Saudi Royals at the Bush* ranch and 'Western White House'...Bush* and Cheney's fight to keep 9-11 from being investigated...the rigging of the intel and 9-11 commission...and lying and manipulating this nation into war with a country that posed no threat.

- And let's not forget that the Bush* government created a SHADOW GOVERNMENT without the knowledge or consent of OUR representatives. If we're talking about TRUST and truth...the Bush* government has given us absolutely no reason to believe them on any issue.

[LunaC]

88. Please see post #69

I'd love to hear your explanation! Really. Enlighten me. (And be sure to read the WHOLE "Whispering Campaign" background so you don't miss any of the important details.)

[Minstrel Boy]

73. The "it makes us look crazy" argument makes you look weak.

It says liberals have no backbone; no courage of conviction. It's better to shy away from anything that challenges received wisdom. And it sickens me.

It's an argument that would perpetuate the cover up because fear of embarrassment is greater than a hunger for justice.

We're not in high school anymore. We ought to get over the other kids' taunts.

Make a case against LIHOP/MIHOP. But a case is not holding your ears and screeching "Don't say that!"

[Spider Jerusalem]

75. Who is this "us" you speak of?

Itf it makes anyone look "crazy", it would be the person or persons advocating it. Who do NOT constitute the entire membership of these forums.

And belief is not a good gauge of accuracy, anyway. Most Democrats DO believe in God, a nonexistent mythological figure, so their perceptions perhaps aren't to be trusted anyway.

[mopaul]

76. odd, that's just how i perceive you....crazy

you can't see the forest for the trees. i don't assume that you are crazy just because you believe the official story. but at least you said you don't dismiss lihop entirely, so, you still have some objectivity.

i gave up worrying about how people perceive me years ago. i've learned that sometimes, even crazy people are right, and sometimes, even outlandish scenarios turn out to be true.

keep your objectivity, i could be just as wrong as you. or just as right

[FlashHarry]

78. Please provide some FACTS to support your position.

Before you call somebody crazy.

Support the position that the admin. somehow deliberately caused 9/11 or let 9/11 be caused.

I'm not talking Bush reading to school kids for an extra 20 minutes or the failure of USAF planes to intercept the hijacked planes, either--those sad events can be attributed to incompetence. No, I want you to prove that there was deliberate intent.

[mopaul]

80. i didn't state a position

i feel i can call someone crazy, cause i myself am crazier than a shit house rat. the 'c' word was used in reference to anyone who doesn't buy the official story, which i don't. i don't know the truth, anymore than you. i've been wrong on many things, and will be again. i just think it's too early to make up ones mind, and it's crazy to utterly dismiss crackpot theories. sometimes they turn out to be true.

if you want evidence, look it up. it can all be believed or not, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, even if it means being called crazy.

i got no proof

[Junkdrawer]

82. Bernard Weiner, Ph.D Is a pretty well respected liberal...

Here's his latest (Publish on the front page of DU, as a matter of fact):

...

"In the summer of 2001, things started to materialize for us along those lines: We got all those warnings about a spectacular Al Qaida attack that was planned for inside the U.S., probably by airplane and aimed at unspecified but guessable icon targets in New York and Washington, D.C. (We even ran a test run on such a disaster at the Pentagon, a drill that assumed a large plane had crashed into it.) Bush hightailed it out of Washington and went to ground in Texas for a month; Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial jets; somebody was buying huge amounts of airline stock 'puts' on the assumption the price would p lummet, and so on.

"We'd been briefed and were getting direct calls from various countries' intelligence services passing on anxious warnings, so we sure as hell knew something major was about to go down, even if we didn't know the exact date and targets. So, we decided simply to look the other way about the imminent Al Qaida attack, whenever and whatever it turned out to be - and, like Pearl Harbor in 1941, to use the ensuing tragedy to wake up the country to our new situation in the world.

"After the attacks, we cobbled together a lot of old bills that the Congress had refused to pass in previous years because of civil-liberties problems, wrapped them inside a few genuine national-security measures that everyone could agree on, and rushed the Patriot Act through a frightened Congress still reeling from 9/11 and the anthrax scare. Passage of the Patriot Act made it easier to get things done domestically without having constantly to deal with Constitutional prohibitions. We began moving more assertively abroad, without having to worry about anyone stopping us - or being restrained by, or having to share power with, the United Nations or any other group - since we were the only superpower left standing.

"I guess we thought and hoped the Al Qaida attack would involve only some localized bombings and maybe one plane that might get hijacked and crashed into an out-of-the-way government structure or a military base or something like that; lots of death and destruction but a small price to pay for the freedom to move on our important work. We never wanted to believe that a whole fleet of commercial jets could be taken over and used as fuel-laden missiles against huge skyscrapers and major government centers of power, and that 3000 people would die.

"But once our doing-nothing deed was done, we had to keep going, and the coverup began. A few savvy liberal and internet analysts sussed out the truth pretty early - and later our secret made its way into the mainstream press; after the essence of the August 6, 2001 PDB was revealed, we were horrified at that huge headline May 16, 2002 in the New York Post: "BUSH KNEW!" But the country was still too scared to think those thoughts in that early period. Instead, just as we hoped would happen, the citizenry rallied around the President and, when we invaded Afghanistan, around the flag as well.

...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/04/16_away.html

[redqueen]

83. Does your friend know about Operation Northwoods?

Dumbing us down is not the answer - educating others is.

[Generator]

85. This is important because we were told what happened on 9/11

but no facts were ever actually presented.

In a normal murder investigation, facts are presented and layed out to prove the case. But we were told what happened. It has never been proven, because, if nothing else it would be a threat to "national security".

Who were the hijackers? How did they get on the plane? What are their names? What proof do we have that name you are giving was actually on the plane? Where are the tickets, rcpts, seating assignments? Where are the videotapes? (only the Atta one) Where are the flight school records? Where is the history of their activities and associates in the US? (none of this evidence has been provided to the American people)

Who funded them?
(this is perhaps the most important question of all) Answering a knee-jerk Osama Bin Ladin or the "al qaeda network" is meaningless. Who are they? Where do they live? Has the funding been stopped?

When you have a situation where the perpetrators of a crime are all dead in the committing of that crime, it is very easy to have no answers. They are guilty. They are dead. Case closed. That is what the American people were told. But we have no facts and without facts, without a case that resembles EVIDENCE "conpiracy" (I would call it a conspiracy to know) is inevitable.

That's it, if we just had those answers, we could dispense with the rest. Because the rest is thesis, if 19 hijackers brought this country to its knees, I want the facts, just the facts. I don't see that anywhere. It was taken as a given, that this is what happened.

We don't know what happened. We know what WE HAVE BEEN TOLD. It's not enough. There must be evidence to support facts.

Whether they knew beforehand can always be debated as nebulous,(though it looks like the worst incompetence in the intelligence of this country and it's "leaders" that I can fathom) but we don't even know who or how the crime was committed. Can we start with that?

I grant you that planes crashed into buildings. I would like the evidence to prove the rest, that is all. Am I a crazy?

[BeachBuckeye]

93. I disagree

Whether or not you agree with LIHOP or MIHOP I disagree that most Democrats don't subscribe to either of those theories. I recently spoke to a Democratic club with about 100 members in attendance and I asked whether or not they believed in either of the theories. Only about 10 people didn't raise their hands. This was no fluke in my opinion.