What do you guys think of the Earth Liberation Front?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

Here is their website: http://www.earthliberationfront.com/

They are the ones who do things like damage SUVs on dealer lots and stop loggers from tearing down forests, etc. There's a lot of information on their site. They are considered really radical, anti-corporation, etc.

Do you think the ends justify the means or they are just another terrorist organization (btw, human life is rarely ever affected and when it is it seems to be inadvertant...someone correct me if I'm wrong there...).

[kiahzero]

1. Domestic terrorists.

They engage in political violence in an effort to coerce the government. Hence, they are domestic terrorists.

[ConsAreLiars]

31. Hey, you and Asscrapt have a lot in common.

The same definition of "terrorism." Personally, I think the act of blowing up people and the act of blowing up SUVs are rather easily told apart, but for many all challenges to the powers of corporatism are indistinguishable. Maybe you would recommend using Apache helicopters to take out those scary tree-huggers?

[NMDemDist2]

2. they have been activists for years now

a little radical for my taste, but then I'm old now... 30 years ago i'd probably still be in the top of the tree

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

3. To answer my own question

and I'll just go on and say it, I think they rock.

That being said, I don't think I could ever JOIN them in their activities (found out on their site that they are a non-heirarchical organization so there is no formal structure, per se) because I am too much of a non-violent person, but I find myself secretly rooting for them when I hear they damaged all these SUVs on a dealer lot or whatnot.

Then I feel bad for feeling that way. But I am rather anti-corporation, myself.

[UTUSN]

4. Change from MLK, not from Terror n/t

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

7. Huh? NT

[UTUSN]

17. Uh, Peaceful Coercion, Not Terrorism. n/t Clear? Not Clear?

[FlashHarry]

5. Terrorists. Not Al Qaeda-like terrorists, but terrorists nonetheless.

Arson is not the answer. They give real progressives a bad name. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually a CIA front.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

8. Really? A CIA front??? Would you elaborate on that?

[kiahzero]

11. Probably suggesting they are agents provocateur.

Not unheard of, but I STRONGLY doubt it.

[FlashHarry]

22. If they aren't, then they're misguided assholes.

Misguided assholes who are going to kill or maim somebody instead of merely destroying their homes and livelihoods. Just like the tree-spiking Earth Firsters.

[nosmokes]

26. earthfirst != ELF

and spiking trees doesn't equate with burning up some tahoes in a dealer's parking lot.

spiked trees were clearly marked as being spiked. admittedly, very early on, in the early '70s that was not always the case, mostly due to the ignorance of the danger involved to a logger or a millman. but to my knowledge, and it's a bit more than passing, with rare exceptions every tree spiked since by a firster since like 1978/1980 onward, at least on the west coast, has been clearly and obviously marked.

[FlashHarry]

39. That still doesn't justify the act.

I don't care if they mark trees now. They didn't always. When a chainsaw hits a spike and kicks back on its operator, that damage doesn't go away--whether or not it was in 1974 or 2004.

Violence is not the answer.

[Zorra]

18. Visiting that website may get you on the suspected terrorist list. n/t

[G_j]

37. I wouldn't click on that website.....

:think:

PATRIOT act

:tinfoilhat:

???

[theboss]

6. I'd lock them away for a long, long time

Property rights are the basis for Western democracy. You don't honor that, you are not on my side.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

9. I'll ask you the same thing

to elaborate, if you will. I find these viewpoints very interesting.

So if they destroy some SUVs on a dealer lot, that's jacking around with property rights? I can go there with you. I didn't really think of it that way, I was just thinking of the damage the SUVs do to the environment.

[neverborn]

20. Hrm...

Blowing up SUVs... will that do more damage to the ozone layer than actually using the SUV?

[theboss]

21. SUVs - at the moment - are legal

I don't like smoking; I think smoking is dangerous and disgusting.

Does that give me the right to burn down a warehouse filled with cigarettes? Of course not.

You have the right to sell a legal product. Whether it is a car, a book, or an abortion.

[ConsAreLiars]

32. Actually human rights are the basis of democracy.

Your Cato Institute / Club for Growth shilling notwithstanding. If you think that property rights take precedence over human rights, then I definitely am not on your side. I thank you, however, for so clearly stating what is in fact the core belief of the anti-ELF position.

(edit EF to ELF)

[markomalley]

10. Not for me...but glad they're there

They are in a desparate struggle to save the world from corporate influences. Moderate forces who try to work within the system have consistently been ignored or compromised (look at the jokes that have come out from so-called "international conferences").

Like I said, I am nonviolent, but I can sympathize with their position and their tactics. They walk the talk. I could never do what they do myself, but I am glad there is somebody with the guts to take the actions they've taken.

[Alpharetta]

12. I think they are a risk to democrats

because democrats are more aligned with environmental protection, we run the risk of being associated with the illegal activities of eco-terrorism.

[Blue_Chill]

13. Terrorists plain and simple

they hurt the cause I believe in and I hate them for that. Bastards make it harder for enviromentalists to do anything meaningful and long lasting.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

16. How do they make it harder?

As an environmentalist myself, I am genuinely curious. It may help my stance on how I feel about ELF.

Thanks!

[Blue_Chill]

25. It makes it easy to be written off.

All it takes is some loud mouth RW jerk to say, those tree huggers support terror and point them to their website and all the sudden the entire movement is tainted.

[mkultra]

14. im torn

I understand that what they are doing is wrong but for some reason it makes me giggle like Boss Hog. :)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

15. There ya go!

THAT is exactly how I feel. I am sitting here nodding in agreement to every post on this thread so far, so obviously I am a fence-sitter where ELF is concerned. I can understand the frustration that can go into their actions, but I know their actions are wrong.

They probably justify what they are doing (no, I know they do) by believing that nothing else will engender change, but I wonder how effective they have BEEN in bringing about change?

And good point to whomever said they hurt the Dems....just like fundies hurt the Rethugs.

[UTUSN]

19. Don't Sit on Fences. They Wrinkle Your Ass. n/t

[Gildor Inglorion]

23. Extremists, to be sure...

but time is running out. The old-growth forests are almost gone; massive species extinctions are a fact of life; catastrophic ecological collapse is almost upon us, and we worry about a few SUV's? I WISH I were 30 years younger. You can be sure I'd be doing my part. Why do we have to observe the rules of decorum and proper procedure when our opponents are ravishing the planet? They hold all the aces and time is most definitely on their side. I have no children, but if I did, I'd be very, very worried about their futures. Hurrah for the ELF! More power to them!

[FlashHarry]

24. Is it worth killing people?

I know they haven't, yet--but where do you draw the line? Is the "liberation of the Earth" worth murder? Or is arson the limit? Is a human's life worth more than a tree's?

[Syncronaut Seven]

27. I'm against eco-terrorism!

That's why I support the ELF agenda wholeheartedly! Too bad about the property damage, oh well, at least it boosts the GDP.

Me thinks the existence of ELF type groups is a symptom of a much larger problem. It's best not to ignore such serious symptoms.

One would think in a truly representative, participative, democracy such extremism wouldn't be necessary, yet it seems to be so.

Greedy, soul-less pigfuckers need not apply.

Viva el frente liberación tierra.

[salin]

28. pretty active in this area - and have won few friends.

during one of the strings of 'events' - an analysis of costs/benefits of other ELF! attacks demonstrated how counterproductive their efforts have been. In community after community those who had been sympathetic (and willing to create political pressure) enought to work to put some curbs on development - turned on the movement. In the end more money for development ended up being spent (after the tide turned against ELF - ironically due to their actions) than had been proposed initially. In short - their tactics seem to continuously do damage to their own cause.

[lucidmadman]

29. I've read some of Craig Rosebraugh's writing...

...he's coherent and thoughtful.
I think about how 2005 may be a 'year of the gun' if the election is stolen again. Political violence may become a fact of life in the US.
People are pissed. They don't understand billions going to armaments manufacturers while there's no universal health care.
I remember political violence in the late '60s/early '70s. I came across my copy of the Weather Underground's book PRAIRIE FIRE recently. Amazing how things haven't changed that much...
Me? Too old and resigned to just trying to get by. Made a 'separate peace' so to speak...
But the elements are there for insurgency, uprising, etc....
The far right is pushing things pretty far. It's the middle that's changed. The middle is now pretty far right in '1970' currency. Some of Nixon's domestic policies were more liberal than Clinton's.
I'm gonna vote for Kerry. I decided that last Summer. But I'm not hoping for much.
The right wants to dismantle FDR's legacy.
I don't understand why basic middle-of-the-road Americans don't want what the other 'Western democracies' have.
ELF? Clean air, water, a bio-regional approach to life on earth. When did such ideas become radical?
I'd like to think reform still has a chance. Terrorism sucks. Violence sucks. I think proportional representation in the legislature and instant run-off in the executive branch would be a good start.
Anyway....that's my rather unfocused 2 cents worth...

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

30. I think that was a rather good post

and a good read. And I'd have to say I read it nodding my head, too.

[Union Thug]

33. ELF?

Sorry, old school EF! supporter here!

[0rganism]

34. Well-intentioned fanatics whose methods directly damage their cause

Not just the cause of environmental protection, but the whole spectrum of protest, civil disobedience, and organized grassroots opposition to corporatism is threatened by establishment response to their vandalism.

[BobDCousy2004]

35. Terrorists

ELF are a bunch of terrorists. They may not want their image to be presented that way, but if they bomb SUV's and put set-up explosives, though they may not want to hurt anyone, the potential remains for someone to get hurt. Besides, SUV's aren't that bad, especially off-road and in snow-storms.

[BradCKY]

36. I agree

However prepare for the HUGE flame war headed at your thread :)

They are destroying private property, somebody owns those dealerships and they invest their money in this. Would you like somebody who disagreed with your business destroying assets that you invested in? Plus those losses could easily be passed on to the employees in terms of lost wages or less raises etc.

Those that are caught doing this should go to jail.

[DrWeird]

38. Patriots.

Just like the ones who threw the Boston Tea Party.

Well, maybe not patriots. But they were no more terrorists then the Tea Partiers were.

[Vladimir]

40. To hell with them

honestly I have absolutely no time for ecological extremists, whether of the animal-rights or SUV-burning type. I am all for a progressive environmental policy, but because its necessary for the preservation of humanity, not because I give a shit about the environment or other species. I wouldn't call them terrorists, just anti-humanists.

V