too damn much israeli and saudi influence in our government!

[mopaul]

why can't we make up our minds? the fucking saudis finance terrorism, most of the so called hijackers were saudis, and sharon makes bush kiss his ass just as much as prince abdulla and prince bandar. we sell both sides arms, and we make trillions from saudi oil, and give billions to israel. i don't think that either of them should have ANY influence in our government, but they have in fact, a HUGE influence on much of our so called foreign policy.

now, the warthog will dance......

[xray s]

1. Golden rule

He who has the gold rules. For example, I found out today on AAR that the Saudi's own 30% of Citicorp.


They make the shit sandwiches, and we get to eat them with a silly grin on our faces.

[durutti]

2. I disagree.

While it might initially appear that there's too much Israel and Saudi influence in our government, that influence is allowed only because it benefits American elites.

[Miss Authoritiva]

4. Client-state syndrome....

The US uses the Saudis and Israelis for its purposes, they use the US for theirs. Obviously, over the decades these relationships have become very torturous, but they must still be fundamentally functioning as intended and for whom intended.

[Bombtrack]

3. they aren't analogous. Saudi Arabia is a despotic theocratic awful

country with an awful monarchy. Israel is the only democracy in the region and has a moderate, educated, and extremely productive to world society populace. I don't see how one can say the US should not be allied in the cause to protect the state of Israel from being destroyed. That is an entirely different issue than working for change in Israel's leadership. Likud needs to be voted out of power in my opinion. Shuini, the most secular, centrist party is the best route for peice and reform.

However Sharon does not come close to being in the same category as the house of Saud. They are far, far, far, worse. As are pretty much every Middle Eastern/Muslim head of state and/or dictator with the possible exception of the the leader of Qatar

[ex_jew]

7. Sure SA is awful

but they have anything to do with our little fiasco in Iraq ? I'd be highly surprised to find 25 Wahhabis among the top 50 neo-cons who helped grease the skids for war.

Israel may potentially or in principle may be oh-so-moderate but in actual fact its supporters are helping push the world towards incredible tragedy. Do you really believe the house of Saud are villains on that scale ?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Bombtrack]

9. exactly. Because of your low post count, you're about 75 percent

likely to get implications that you're a freeper just for speaking some sense. And whether you are or not, and I don't think you are, what you said is absolutely correct. Israel is a handful of Nesset seats away from new leadership and a new direction in Israel. On the other hand, the Muslim world is being driven further and further into hate-driven Khomeniism largely because of Kabals in Ryadh and Tehran. Who make Sharon look like Ghandi in comparison

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ex_jew]

13. I for one would never accuse you of Freeper tendencies.

Let's talk about the facts. I'm sure Israel is a complete paradise for its citizens compared to Saudi Arabia, but for the rest of the world (and we were discussing the *influence* of its supporters on the US government) it is a disaster. Remember the 15000 dead in operation Iraqi Freedom ? Those people are dead thanks ever so much more to the malign influence of Greater Israel enthusiasts.

What has Saudi Arabia done to that could in any way be equivalent to this ? Mainly it has supplied plenty of cheap oil to the world without requring much (beyond dollars) in return. How often have we needed to veto a UN condemnation of Saudi Arabian practices ? Never that can I think of. Has our relationship with the Saudis caused some kind of uproar, turning the entire Arab world against us ? I doubt it.

My point is that Israel in the abstract may be a very nice place, but being located where it is, the consequences have been deadly and they are getting worse day by day. It's hardly fair to ignore the reality of what Israel has meant by saying that given a few votes in the Knesset, it could be completely different. 37 years of occupation (now to be made permanent) are not something you can simply ignore.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

16. Now you're calling Skittles and myself radicals?

How funny...such ignorance and prejudice on your part. No one said Bush equals Hitler or Mussolini; only that there were some similarities in their modus operandi. Don't you understand shades of gray, or are things only black or white in that narrow little mind of yours?

:eyes:

[Skittles]

17. I said Bush was more like Hitler than a REAL president

and that is THE TRUTH.

[Carolina]

11. Have you seen Israelis bulldoze

inhabited Palestinian homelands for THEIR occupation?

They do to Palestinians what European settlers (doesn't that sound euphemistic) did to the Native Americans. They do it with US help in money and arms. Yet they call the Palestinians terrorists.

Yes, the Holocaust was horrible but the victims have become the victimizers. Israel may be a democracy and the house of Saud a theocracy but there's the bad and ugly in both places and they do impact us immensely.

[Bombtrack]

18. No that's a BS comparison. Jews have a longer + bigger presence in Israel

than Arabs. And the UN has recognized Israel as a sovereign democratic state since World War 2. That is not a conquering or a coup, that is democracy. And the ARABS were the ones to instigate the 6 day war, in which the Israelis took land agreed to by the other side, mainly for security reasons.

Yeah, I've seen Israeli bulldozers, and it really drives home the mental illness of your ideology to say that that is anywhere worse than Pallenstinians BLOWING UP INNOCENT ISRAELI'S,

[kentuck]

5. Zip? Zero? Nada? Zilch?

None? But...but.....but....but....but.....

[JohnyCanuck]

6. True

Plan of Attack
Bob Woodward says the neocons set up a 'separate government' – but to what purpose?
by Justin Raimondo

<snip>

Israeli policies are undeniably fueling the Iraqi insurgency, and swelling radical Islamist ranks. In a statement issued by a previously-unknown group claiming responsibility for the horrific death-by-mutilation of four American quasi-military contractors in Fallujah, the link was made explicitly:

"'This is a gift from the people of Fallujah to the people of Palestine and the family of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin who was assassinated by the criminal Zionists,' said in the statement from the 'Brigades of Martyr Ahmed Yassin.' 'We advise the U.S. forces to withdraw from Iraq and we advise the families of the American soldiers and the contractors not to come to Iraq.'"

<snip>

On the other hand, the concept of the Iraq war as a successful Israeli covert operation is altogether plausible. It would hardly be the first time a foreign government made a concerted effort to drag us into war on their side. And just look at the pattern of recent events: Israel gains, America pays: Israel assassinates, Americans die: Israel conquers, and the American government concurs wholeheartedly: Israel says "Jump!" and the government of the United States only wants to know how high. (emphasis mine /jc) Israel's partisans inside the U.S. government – who, according to top officials and other "defectors," set up their own "separate government" – seized the helm and steered the American ship of state into turbulent waters.

The storm, I fear, is only just beginning. What began as a police action, a "mopping up" of Ba'athist "remnants," is now taking on the scope of a nationwide anti-American insurgency. Americans want to know how and why we were rushed into war – and by whom.

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/

[mopaul]

14. kick

[mmonk]

19. If only the people had that much influence.......