Kerry's worst mistake

[PlanetBev]

What in hell was he thinking when he voted to give Junior the war he wanted? I'm guessing he bought into all that media horseshit about Bush being "too popular to go against" and "if you don't vote with the (p)Resident, you're unpatriotic". Now Kerry is bound up like a country ham. When G.E. Russert pounds away at him tomorrow on MTP, how the hell is Kerry going to explain it away? I'm not sure the "I thought Bush would do it the right way" (i.e., U.N. resolution) excuse will work.

If you could give Kerry advice about how to handle Russert tomorrow, what would you say to him?

[NMDemDist2]

1. his radio rebuttal to *'s weekly address was well done

just heard it on C-Span

[NewJeffCT]

43. summary please?

Thanks

[Mikimouse]

2. Very simple really...tell the truth

There were many people who were duped into voting for the IWR, and as far as I am concerned, part of the problem was that no one recognized the depths that the neocons would go to bring about the realization of PNAC. I would urge Kerry to concentrate on getting that message out. Attacking Bush is not the right tactic, attacking the message that * represents is.

[mike_c]

5. but he still won't come out and say so....

That's what I find so infuriating. I don't really believe that he was "dupped" into endorsing the IWR-- Kerry has far too much experience for that-- but if he was, why won't he simply lay the matter to rest by saying "I'm sorry-- my vote to authorize the IWR was a mistake?"

[NMDemDist2]

9. he has repeatedly n/t

[mike_c]

19. link?

I'm not aware of any such admissions, but I have a ready supply of edible hats. Could you supply a link (or better, a quote with a link)?

[NMDemDist2]

28. link and quote

“I voted to give him the authority to go to war only when he promised me and other members in Congress that he would” seek greater international support for the effort, Kerry began. “He broke those promises. He misled the American people in his own State of the Union Address about Saddam’s nuclear and WMDs , and refused—and continues to refuse—to level with the American people about the cost of the war. Simply put, this president didn’t tell the truth about the war from the beginning.”

http://www.evote.com/index.asp?Page=/features_section/2004-03/03222004election2004.asp

[mike_c]

30. where does Kerry take responsibility for HIS mistake?

This quote simply attempts to shift the responsibility to Bush. We already know that Bush is a f*ch-up of epic proportions. I'm sorry, I asked why Kerry hasn't admitted that voting in support of the IWR was the wrong thing for HIM to do. Note that Kerry was in the Democratic minority-- s majority of Congressional dems disagreed with his vote and he has yet to admit his mistake.

[sangha]

32. Kerry made no mistake

Bush* did, and the responsibility is all on Bush*. When are you going to take responsibility for your mistake of absolving BUsh* of his responsibility?

[mike_c]

37. I've NEVER said that Bush is not responsible for the invasion...

...or any of the other crimes of this administation. Since when does holding complicit dems responsible for their actions = absolving Bush of his own responsibility?

[sangha]

39. Yes, you did

You said that Kerry was shifting responsibility for the war to Bush*

And why do you support war throughout the Middle East? Wasn't Iraq enough for you?

[mike_c]

42. I said that Kerry was shifting responsibility for HIS mistake...

...to Bush. The posted quote did not contain the mea culpa promised-- it simply suggested that Kerry's IWR vote was OK, but that Bush had gone and messed everything up. Yes, Bush did make a mess of it. How could anyone have thought he wouldn't? Did Kerry apologize for enabling him? No, he said that it was all Bush's fault for not acting the way Kerry had anticipated. I still don't think that absolves Kerry of his responsibilities in the matter.

Now to make certain there are no further misunderstandings, my position is that Bush and his administration are responsible for the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and the deaths of thousands of innocents. I also believe that everyone who supported the IWR shares that responsibility, including John Kerry.

on edit: regarding the rest of your reply-- the bit about my wanting war throughout the ME, wasn't Iraq enough for me?-- are we posting on two different versions of DU? Where in god's name does my post, repeated here to refresh your memory:

"I've NEVER said that Bush is not responsible for the invasion or any of the other crimes of this administation. Since when does holding complicit dems responsible for their actions = absolving Bush of his own responsibility?"

Where in god's name did I say anything about wanting a larger war in the ME? Did you just pull that out of your butt or what?

2nd edit: Maybe you should see #38, below.

[The_camper]

3. Kerry's Vote

It's one thing to vote against the measure to go to war. It's another to be one of a handful voting against it. I shows better unity when everyone agrees... Bush pushed for the war for too long, it didn't matter who voted and we were going to war, Bush would have found a way to go to Iraq whether Kerry and 50 others voted against the crazy Texan.

But that's just one side of the argument. He still shouldn't have voted.

[dfong63]

6. a majority of congressional dems voted "no".

It's one thing to vote against the measure to go to war. It's another to be one of a handful voting against it.

it was more than a handful who voted against it. a MAJORITY of congressional dems (counting both houses) voted against IWR. millions of people worldwide demonstrated against the war. Kerry would hardly have been alone.

and yet, even if Kerry had had to go alone - isn't that what "courage" is all about? and leadership??

[Kanary]

25. Led by Dennis Kucinich, I might add

Oh yeah, that's right... he wasn't "electable".

:shrug:

Kanary

[sangha]

26. No, it's not

and yet, even if Kerry had had to go alone - isn't that what "courage" is all about? and leadership??

No, going it alone, when "it" turns out to be a futile effort with no good consequences, then the thing that that is all about is called "suicide" or "stupidity"

Courage is about taking action to help someone else without concern for your own safety. Voting "No" help no one, because IWR had 51 votes with or without Kerry.

Leadership is not about being in front of a parade. It's about taking people somewhere, preferably to a better place. Casting a vote that doesn't change the outcome is not how one gets from one place to another.

[Shrubhater]

4. Kerry shouldn't be that gullible,

but at least he knows now that the Iraqi war is wrong and that's what counts.

[drthais]

13. Lets get the right story here...

Kerry (and many many others)
did not 'vote to go to war in Iraq'
what they VOTED for
or what they THOUGHT they were voting for
was to let that idiot president

go through all of the diplomatic (yeah, right) channels
FIRST!
which of course he did not do
and I really believe that Kerry (and a lot of others
thought that OF COURSE there would be a real live coalition
if it came to going to war
which nobody thought was a DONE DEAL

so thats what that was about
and that is what Kerry should be saying

[Kadie]

7. Does anybody remember the speech Kerry gave on the Senate floor

when they voted for the resolution? I wonder if it would be possible to find it. I watched him, and if I remember correctly, he said that he was voting for the resolution, and basically told bushie to do the right thing. He also said that he believed bushie would, because he met with Kerry and gave him his word he wouldn't rush into war.

I also remember yelling at him via my TV set saying "AND YOU BELIEVED HIM?"

Does anyone else remember this or was I just dreaming?

[NMDemDist2]

27. kerry's speech in full

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

[Kadie]

45. Thank you very much

I haven't been able to find it myself, thanks for the link.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. Quite a few Democrats voted for going to war...not just Kerry.

[NNN0LHI]

10. What are you talking about?

Bush did not need any vote to invade Iraq. He was invading no matter what Kerry or the world had to say about it for that matter. I can't believe seemingly normal intelligent people have not figured this out yet?

Don

[maggrwaggr]

22. how in the hell is that an argument for a "yes" vote by Kerry?

I've heard this so-called argument before. "Bush would have gone to war in Iraq anyway, no matter how anybody voted."

That is the WORST rationalization I've ever heard.

That's like saying "well I voted for Bush because I live in Wyoming and he was gonna win anyway"

[sangha]

29. It's not an argument FOR anything

It's a refutation of the argument that his IWR vote was a bad thing. The refutation asks "How can it be such a bad thing if it did not change the outcome?"

That's like saying "well I voted for Bush because I live in Wyoming and he was gonna win anyway"

No, it's like saying "I'll hold Bush* accountable for his own decisions, and I'll make mine clear"

[NNN0LHI]

35. All the Dem's should have voted against it?

That way all the death and destruction could be blamed on them for not supporting "Americas wartime president" when the country needed them during a time of war and thus causing it all to happen. Yea, thats just the ticket...to 4 more years of Bush anyway. Rove would have creamed his jeans had that happened.

Don

[sangha]

40. Zell Miller and Liberman vote against it?? Are you dreaming?

There was NO way that every Dem was going to vote against it. There were 49 Repuke Senators, and Miller and Lieberman, who said they were going to vote for it even before it was written.

[quinnox]

11. This is not a problem

Kerry is on the right side of this politically speaking. Polls consistently show a majority of Americans still believe the Iraq war was the right thing to do, what they don't like now is the continuing occupation and rising casualties.

[Amerpie]

20. That's not the way I see it

Many people, including Kerry, are for continuing the occupation. It's the "we broke it so we have to fix it" logic. Kerry's comments the day after Bush's press conference are pretty telling,

"The extremists attacking our forces should know they will not succeed in dividing America, or in sapping American resolve, or in forcing the premature withdrawal of U.S. troops. Our country is committed to help the Iraqis build a stable, peaceful and pluralistic society. No matter who is elected president in November, we will persevere in that mission."

"If our military commanders request more troops, we should deploy them."

"We should urge NATO to create a new out-of-area operation for Iraq under the lead of a U.S. commander. This would help us obtain more troops from major powers."

"We owe it to our soldiers and Marines to use absolutely every tool we can muster to help them succeed in their mission without exposing them to unnecessary risk. That is not a partisan proposal. It is a matter of national honor and trust."

[coloradodem2005]

12. I think Kerry thought Bush would have done right by the UN.

It seems like he really felt deceived. He may have well been. He also probably believed him. I will try to see the best on this one. I best not be wrong.

[maggrwaggr]

24. sorry, but Kerry never should have thought that

I could see right through Bush's lies, why couldn't Kerry?

Many other Dems didn't fall for it, either, why did Kerry?

[sangha]

31. " Kerry never should have thought that"

I could see right through Bush's lies, why couldn't Kerry?

If you could really see through Bush*'s lies, you wouldn't be blaming Kerry for a vote that didn't cause the war. And if you could see the truth, you'd see that Kerry never supported this war.

[lindashaw]

14. Here's what John Dean said in "Worse than Watergate"...

When it came to the war against Iraq, Congress was deceived, just as the American people were, only what happened with Congress deserves a very close look because it reveals that Congress did not give the administration a blank-check authorization. In fact, Bush deliberately violated the very authorization that he sought from Congress, which was not merely a serious breach of faith with a trusting Congress but a statutory and constitutional crime. ...page 140.

He says that Bush violated two major agreements that he made with Congress. You'll have to read it. It constitutes a crime, according to Dean.

[emulatorloo]

48. Thank you John Dean and Linda Shaw

although it seems like your point might be lost in the mess of this thread. . .

[stellanoir]

15. he has said repeatedly. . .

that he voted for giving the prez* the authority to go to war but disagreed strongly with the timing and implementation of the war.

He never thought that he would do such a thing without exhausting international diplomacy. In other words, * blew it.

[mike_c]

21. Kerry (and in fairness, a minority of other congressional dems)...

...gave Bush a blank check and then said they didn't think he'd use it. Were they really that gullible? Why else did they think he asked for it?

[sangha]

33. You left out something important

Kerry and that minority of Dems traded their votes in exchange for a change to IWR that limited the war to Iraq, instead of the entire Middle East as the original IWR said. Kerry's vote helped limit the war to Iraq, and that is only a mistake if you wanted a wider war.

[mike_c]

38. no, it's equally a mistake if you wanted NO war....

Don't try to establish that Kerry's vote for the IWR somehow made things better than they might have been. Lots of congressional dems had more spine than that, and voted "no". What about them? Did they want a "wider war?"

[sangha]

41. Why would vote for a wider war?

If Kerry voted "No" then the Repukes would have passed a version of IWR that authorized war throughout the Middle East. Why would you want to widen the war to include all of the Middle East? Wasn't Iraq enough for you?

What about them?

They achieved nothing.

[mike_c]

44. well, they kept some respect....

eom

[Malva Zebrina]

16. My honest suspicion is that he also wanted and desired to overthrow

SAddam and take over Iraq and all of it's lucrative assets.

Also, he would like to protect Israel and Iraq is Israel's enemy that could be a threat, although it was nothing near a threat to anyone.

Kerry actually, as I see it, is happy that we have Iraq. I honestly think he is also reluctant to give up all of that stuff Bush stole and murdered for.

And I think that this was all calculated when he voted for the invasion.

We are not stupid-- we can figure this out.

Kerry wanted Iraq too. At the least, he was not sure that he wanted it, but was not, did not have the balls, to object to the obvious immorality and unethical, indeed, the criminal invasion of Iraq

He was content to vote for it, but to reserve the right to criticize the way it was done.

I have a feeling with a Kerry in office, we will have as many frustrations as we do with Bush

Well maybe there will be a few that will not be the same'

Forced to vote for Kerry. My thoughts are that it is a futile exercise of a vote.

[dd123]

17. I concur.

n/t

[emulatorloo]

47. And what supportable facts, quotes, etc do you base this theory? n/t

[goclark]

18. Neocon Way..

View of the Neocons: My Mind is Made Up Don't Confuse Me With Facts


GWB makes a decision,or they make it for him, and he will NEVER change his mind. No matter what new facts come into view.

That is stupid.

Kerry needs to say that his leadership skills would have lead him another way. He knows when to hold and when to change course. He knows how to BUILD friendships around the world, not destroy them. That is not a flip flop. That is just common sense. That is leadership, that is good business sense.

If KERRY had been told that THERE WERE NO WMD etc., etc.
he would not have voted to approve the WAR. When he found out it was all lies, he realized it was a BAD decision to handle it the way that Bush handled it. Now we are knee deep and begging for the UN to help us solve it.

Bush is the flip flopper and his Imperial House of Pancakes is about to fold.

Kerry '04!

[zbdent]

23. When somebody brings up about "how can you trust Kerry if he's

duped so easily?" (which they will)

Remind them of who was doing the duping, and how many people the dupers have sent to their deaths on the faulty information.

If Bush actually had seen action in Vietnam, or even been anywhere near the theatre of conflict during that era, maybe he would have had a better feel for "sending soldiers to their deaths" based on faulty intelligence and a house of cards.

[sangha]

34. Some people prefer the liar from the other side

over the duped from their own side.

[Selwynn]

36. It's so freaking simple, guys .. common!

He was thinking that Bush hat a 80% approval rating back then, and massive majority support (in the US) for the war back then.

I'm not saying its right, but that's exactly what he was thinking.

[emulatorloo]

46. "Let me put it to you as simply as I can, Tim

we were told that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was close to getting nuclear weapons.

As you know from my record, I am against the proliferation of WMDs.

The President and Colin Powell promised me that they needed this resolution to put pressure on Saddam to disarm, and to get the inspectors back into Iraq. They promised me that they would go to war as the LAST Resort.

Tim, they broke their word to me and to the American people. Now we've found out that there were no WMDs, and GWB has squandered our relationship w the UN and our European allies. His go it alone attitude has got us into a quagmire.

[pinto]

49. apparently Kerry's worst mistake is being a New Englander w/money.`

Didn't realize that was a crime.