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burlwindow Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 04:56 PM
Original message
Mecca Nuked?
4/15/04/Charles Rodgers/AP Newswire/

A Carter Era Plan To Sterilize Mecca Revived Under Rumsfeld

The Neutron Bomb, developed as a deterrent during the Carter Era, is being revived in a plan reminiscent of Cold War mutual destruction theory. Under the plan, a neutron bomb would be dropped on Mecca, sparing the site, but making the entire region around it radioactive to humans. Outright death, or sterilization would result from anyone entering the zone.

Islamic believers would be faced with a Hobson's choice: defy commandment to visit Mecca at least once in their lifetime and face damnation, or go, only to face death or sterilization.

Asked about the plan, Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declined comment, simply restating the Bush administration doctrine that in war all options are on the table.

The neutron bomb has a half-life of 3400 years, and would effectively wipe out the entire Islamic fundamentalist movement in a century after deployment, Pentagon sources reported.
__________________________________________________________________
I checked it out at Snopes, can't find it.
I checked for it at A/P, can't find it.
Does anyone have a link for this? Have recieved it 5 times today.
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buddy22600 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. It was my understanding that
the neutron bomb was never developed. We tried but could never make it work
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It exists.
And works.
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buddy22600 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Show me a mainstream story about it and I'll
believe, otherwise I think it is just a conspiracy theory with no basis
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Umm, you better think again about the existence of the 'neutron bomb'.....
.....Here's a Google search for neutron bomb.

You get 61,000 hits, take your pick! :evilgrin:

Yes it does exist and no I wouldn't put it past this Administration to use it in this fashion! :(

You ever heard of Operation Northwoods? :shrug: :scared: (And that was against our own people!)
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I wouldn't be so sure of that.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:05 PM
Original message
Are you sure?
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Are you serious?
Google Charles Rogers AP Newswire and nothing comes up.

Sounds like a Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell and company Red Herring
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burlwindow Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Found it -- so it is a reality after all
http://www.manuelsweb.com/neutronbomb.htm revived under Reagan. Now to find out about the rest.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. Oh ho
Now you're flogging this crap as "possible" fraud, after you dumped it earlier without mentioning it was email spam.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1421403#1421464

And in a new thread, too! Cute.
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burlwindow Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. And why do you think I made this post?
To get to the bottom of it. Geez! Conspiracy everywhere! Run! Run!
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Conspiracy?
Haha, where? All I see is you.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. It actually was invented
However, that email above about the half-life of the radiation seems wrong according to this article.


06/15/97
By Christopher Ruddy

FOR THE TRIBUNE-REVIEW

LOS ANGELES - For most of Sam Cohen's life, he has struggled against politicians who, in his opinion, have sacrificed good sense when it comes to the nation's defenses. Cohen is the physicist who invented the neutron bomb, the one that kills people but leaves things like tanks and buildings intact. Plans to deploy his creations in Europe during the '70s and '80s awakened the "peace movement" across that continent, stopping its deployment.

With that and other battles lost, the 76-year-old Cohen finds solace in his Brentwood home, nestled high on a hill overlooking Los Angeles. There the world is far more peaceful, or so it seems. Just down the road is the Rockingham estate of one O.J. Simpson. Cohen would pass there often during his morning walks, and occasionally see the former football star. "He was always pleasant," Cohen recounted.

Cohen would probably be unfazed if confronted by a knife-wielding mugger - a threat insignificant in the scheme of things. What worries him are weapons of mass destruction - nuclear ones that destroy whole cities.

The politicians tell us that our security has never been better. Cohen describes the present situation as "scary, more scary than ever before." He's concerned that the Clinton administration has decided it is politically incorrect to even think about the design and development of nuclear weapons. The head of the division of the Livermore National Laboratories in charge of such weapon development has threatened to resign if he is ordered to develop new weapons, Cohen noted in a recent interview.

The government doesn't want people to even think about nuclear weapons, which is like telling Sam Cohen he is no longer permitted to breathe.

As a kid from Brooklyn who graduated with a physics degree from UCLA, he enlisted in the Army after Pearl Harbor. In 1944 Cohen was assigned to the top-secret Manhattan Project to develop atomic weapons at Los Alamos, N.M. Cohen had the mundane job of calculating how neutrons behaved in "Fat Man" - the nickname of the bomb dropped on Nagasaki. (The bomb dropped on Hiroshima three days earlier was nicknamed "Little Boy.")

The boring work was all worthwhile because Cohen eventually stood in the Nevada desert and witnessed something on par with the Transfiguration: an atomic explosion. Cohen saw firsthand the awesome power of the unleashed atom as human history entered a new age. "Awesome spectacle" is how Cohen still describes the event. Puffing on a cigar as he relaxed in his easy chair wearing a T-shirt and jogging pants, Sam remembered that day vividly.

World War II flying hero Jimmy Doolittle stood next to him when the bomb went off. "The little guy was blown down," Cohen recalled.

After the war ended, Cohen joined the Rand Corp. where he was paid to continue thinking about nuclear weapons. He was obsessed with the idea of a neutron bomb, one that would make use of the lethal particles he had observed so studiously at Los Alamos.

The earliest bombs had used nuclear fission, splitting heavy atoms to release energy. Later bombs used nuclear fusion, which fused hydrogen atoms to release energy. Both designs produced tremendous blasts that could level whole cities, and left them uninhabitable for long periods because of lingering radiation.

Cohen's neutron bomb would use nuclear fusion, but in a different way. The detonation of a neutron bomb would still produce an explosion, but one much smaller than a standard nuclear weapon's. The main effect of a neutron bomb would be the release of high-energy neutrons that would take lives far beyond the blast area. The result: fewer buildings, cars, tanks, roads, highways and other structures destroyed.

And unlike standard nuclear bombs that leave long-term contamination of the soil and infrastructure, the neutron radiation quickly dissipates after the explosion.

For Cohen, the neutron bomb is the ultimate sane weapon. It kills humans, or as he puts it "the bad guys," but doesn't produce tremendous collateral damage on civilian populations and the infrastructure a civilian population needs to survive.

This meant, in Cohen's mind, that a conventional war could escalate without immediately leading to an all-out nuclear holocaust. If regular nuclear weapons were used across Europe, the radioactive fallout could turn the continent into a wasteland for decades. That wouldn't be the case if neutron bombs were used.

Between 1958 and 1961 the neutron bomb idea was tested successfully, but the politicians in Washington nixed development and deployment of the weapon. Cohen persisted. As the Vietnam War began and festered in the 1960s, Cohen became an advocate of using neutron bombs there. To Cohen, his weapon was "a perfect fit" for dealing with the Viet Cong hidden in the jungles and rice paddies.

Again, the politicians had other ideas. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ruled that no nuclear weapons of any type would be used in the war. The use of the small neutron bombs would have brought the war to a quick end, Cohen still argues, and saved the loss of more than 50,000 American lives.

In 1969, Cohen was fired from the Rand Corp. for continuing to advocate the use of tactical neutron bombs to end the conflict. "I lost all my battles," Cohen says today.

In 1979, he was in Paris helping the French build their own arsenal of neutron bombs when presidential candidate Ronald Reagan came through on a European tour. Cohen met with Reagan to brief him on the neutron bomb. Reagan grasped the idea of neutron weaponry immediately, and made a pledge to Cohen, and later a public pledge, that he would reverse Carter administration policy by building and deploying a large number of neutron bombs.

As president, Reagan fulfilled that pledge and approximately a thousand weapons were constructed. But criticism from European allies kept the weapons from being deployed across Europe.

With the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of communism as we knew it, the Bush administration moved to dismantle all of our tactical nuclear weapons, including the Reagan stockpile of neutron bombs. In Cohen's mind, America was brought back to Square One. Without tactical weapons like the neutron bomb, America would be left with two choices if an enemy was winning a conventional war: surrender, or unleash the holocaust of strategic nuclear weapons.

Other nation's haven't been afflicted by the U.S. blindness regarding neutron bombs. According to Cohen:

Evidence exists that China has neutron bombs stockpiled, and that the United States gave the Chinese the technology to build them.

Russia has a large quantity of such weapons, as well as the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Israel has hundreds of neutron weapons. The neutron bombs would allow Israel to stop advancing Arab armies and tank columns - even one on Israeli soil - without permanently contaminating the land.

South Africa, which constructed a cache of neutron weapons before the end of white rule, claimed it dismantled those weapons before handing over power to the Nelson Mandela government. Cohen, however, claims to have it on good authority that white military leaders still control the secret stockpile as "an insurance policy."

Most frightening for Cohen is the relative ease by which neutron bombs can be created with a substance called red mercury. Red mercury is a compound containing mercury that has undergone massive irradiation. When exploded, it creates tremendous heat and pressure - the same type needed to trigger a fusion device such as a mini-neutron bomb.

Before, an obstacle to creating a nuclear bomb was the need for plutonium, which when exploded could create a fusion reaction in hydrogen atoms. But red mercury has changed that. The cheap substance has been produced in Russia, Cohen said, and shipped on the black market throughout the world.

Cohen said that when U.N. inspectors went to Iraq to examine the Iraqis' nuclear weapons capabilities, the U.N. team found documents showing that they had purchased quantities of red mercury. The material means a neutron bomb can be built "the size of baseball" but able to kill everyone within several square blocks.

The public isn't being warned about this development because the politicians have little desire to combat the menace or to confront nations like Iraq, Iran and Libya that likely would use such weapons, Cohen said.

Cohen has little faith in the politicians anyway. "Every president since Truman, with the possible exception of Eisenhower, would have sold the country out if it came down to a nuclear confrontation," he said.

Cohen on nation security issues

In a recent interview, Sam Cohen, the father of the neutron bomb, offered his views on several national security issues:

RUSSIA: Though the Cold War is over and Russia appears in disarray, Cohen suggested that the situation remains dangerous because Russia has "far and away substantially more nuclear weapons than we do." While U.S. policy makers have been busy dismantling our nuclear arsenal, Russia continues to modernize.

The United States has been paying billions of dollars for the leftover plutonium from Russia's dismantled weapons, but evidence indicates that the Russians have not been turning over weapons-grade plutonium. Instead, the United States has been paying for, and not objecting to, material from their nuclear power plants - a strong sign the Russians are not dismantling their weapons.

MISSILE DEFENSES: Calling a ballistic missile defense system "absolutely necessary," Cohen said American space-based plans so far have been a "debacle" that have cost taxpayers more than $50 billion.

Cohen argued that the "Star Wars" plan envisioned by President Ronald Reagan was inherently flawed. Politicians, once again fearing the "n" word, promised that nuclear weapons would not be used in any missile defense system. Cohen contends Reagan received misleading advice that technology was advanced enough to create a non-nuclear missile defense system.

Almost 15 years have passed since Reagan's call for a missile defense system, and still no weapons have been deployed. Cohen said that, had nuclear weapons been used, a fairly inexpensive system could already have been deployed. In such a system, nuclear weapons are exploded high in the atmosphere to either destroy or knock off trajectory incoming missiles. While the radioactive fallout from such explosions would pose some threat to civilian populations, it would be infinitely less harmful than having enemy missiles hit their targets.

Already, Cohen reported, the Russians have a sophisticated nuclear-based missile defense system around Moscow and possibly elsewhere. According to published intelligence reports, in the late 1980s the Russians began developing a "plasma weapon" for missile defenses. The plasma weapon uses nuclear energy to ionize the atmosphere, destroying or rendering inoperable any missiles passing through the plasma field.

SEAPOWER: Cohen said navies have become "obsolete" in terms of global warfare using nuclear weapons, and he described floating ships as "sitting ducks" for nuclear weapons. The U.S. Navy depends on AEGIS missile defense systems to protect its fleets, but Cohen said AEGIS has failed all of its tests, and there is no proof that it could fend off a multi-missile strike against a fleet, let alone a country.

Cohen said the U.S. Navy should put more resources into nuclear-powered submarines because of the difficulty any enemy might have in destroying them in a first strike.

For years, the nuclear submarines were the most important part of our deterrent against surprise nuclear attack, primarily because the submarine captain and crew did not need special codes, known as permissive action links or PALs, to fire their weapons. Thus, if a surprise attack disabled our military communications, the submarine could still counterattack.

In recent years, Cohen said, the Clinton administration has instituted the use of PALs on nuclear missile submarines, limiting their deterrence value.

CHINA: Cohen thinks China will soon be in position to blackmail the United States into reneging on promises to defend Taiwan. Already China has made overt threats about hitting the U.S. mainland with nuclear weapons. "China has said, `OK, if you defend Taiwan, we'll drop a nuclear weapon on Los Angeles,'" Cohen said.

In a trip to Taiwan, Cohen spoke before the military leadership there and strongly advised them to begin their own nuclear weapons program. The United States will not defend you because the politicians don't care about you, he told them.

http://www.manuelsweb.com/sam_cohen.htm
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. Story is boguw on many levels
First off the AP has no record of it that I could find, secondly, the Neutron bomb by definition does not leave behind radiation for any appreciable length of time, and does in fact destroy buildings at and around ground zero. Addionally, if the goal is to destroy Islamic fundamentalism why bother saving Mecca?

for more info on the neutron bomb see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_Bomb
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burlwindow Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. True.
Why spare Mecca if the goal is to wipe it all out?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wasn't the h-bomb good enough? And the neutron bomb proves one thing...
WTF was Carter on?!

Worse, the neutron bomb destroys living tissue but leaves buildings intact.

Typical American policy; things are more important than people.

This is cruel and unusual punishment.

Oh yeah, if a bomb was to be used, you can bet your sweet bippy that they'd do everything impossible and beyond to destroy us in return.

rumdrinker and the other degenerate warmongers have got to stop. All of them. around the world.
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buddy22600 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. OK, one story says it is real
the other says it isn't. I don't know.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Neutron bombs exists but...
This use for it is a Freeperish fantasy.

Neutron bombs, also called enhanced radiation weapons (ER), are small nuclear weapons in which the burst of neutrons generated by the fusion reaction is intentionally not absorbed inside the weapon, but allowed to escape. The X-ray mirrors and shell of the weapon are made of chromium or nickel so that the neutrons are permitted to escape. This intense burst of high-energy neutrons is the principal destructive mechanism. Neutrons are more penetrating than other types of radiation so many shielding materials that work well against gamma rays do not work nearly as well. The term "enhanced radiation" refers only to the burst of ionizing radiation released at the moment of detonation, not to any enhancement of residual radiation in fallout (contrast this with salted bombs).

snip

Some authorities say that due to the rapid attenuation of neutron energy by the atmosphere (it drops by a factor of 10 every 500 m in addition to the effects of spreading) ER weapons are only effective at short ranges, and thus are practical only in relatively low yields. These ER warheads are said to be designed to minimize the amount of fission energy and blast effect produced relative to the neutron yield. The principal reason is said to be to allow their use close to friendly forces.

These same authorities say that the common perception of the neutron bomb as a "landlord bomb" that would kill people but leave buildings undamaged is greatly overstated. At the conventional effective combat range (690 m) the blast from a 1 kt neutron bomb will destroy or damage to the point of unusability almost any civilian building. Thus the use of neutron bombs to stop an enemy attack, which requires exploding large numbers of them to blanket the enemy forces, would also destroy all buildings in the area.

Another view of the neutron bomb and its tactics exists. The inventor of the neutron bomb, Samuel Cohen, wrote a book in which he stated that the effective range of a pure neutron bomb exceeded 10 Km of altitude. Samuel Cohen stated explicitly that "enhanced radiation" weapons deployed in Germany during the cold war were political compromises designed to have substantial blast, with radiation effects deliberately reduced to eliminate any possibility of surviving structures. He also quoted radiation releases of 100KRads at the ground from pure neutron weapons exploded at 10Km.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_bomb

Just another murderous masturbation scenario for our knuckledragging friends.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Kabaa could be moved out of ruins and put behind protective barrier
Edited on Fri Apr-16-04 05:31 PM by mouse7
Just in case some freeper whackjob reads this and decides to take out all of Islam...

The reason one goes to Mecca is to primarily to go to the site of The Kabaa in the Great Mosque....

"Kaaba

or Caaba (both: kä´b or kä´b) , the central, cubic, stone structure, covered by a black cloth, within the Great Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The sacred nature of the site predates Islam: tradition says that the Kaaba was built by Adam and rebuilt by Abraham and the descendants of Noah. Also known as the House of God, it is the center of the circumambulations performed during the hajj, and it is toward the Kaaba that Muslims face in their prayers (see liturgy, Islamic). Pre-Islamic Meccans used it as a central shrine housing their many idols, most notable of which were al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat, collectively known as al-Gharaniq or the Daughters of God, and Hubal, a martial deity. The Black Stone, possibly of meteoric origin, is located at one of its outside corners. Also dating from pre-Islamic times as a heavenly relic, this stone is venerated and ritually kissed. Worn hollow by the centuries of veneration, the stone is held together by a wide silver band. The actual structure of the Kaaba has been demolished and rebuilt several times in the course of its history. Around the Kaaba is a restricted area, haram, extending in some directions as far as 12 mi, into which only Muslims may enter."

As the Kabaa has been rebuilt before according to tradition, it could be moved and placed behind thick glass that would protect pilgrims from radioactivity if it was required.

So Freepers, forget about that stupid plot.
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