Dean, Jews, Arab, the GOP, and the Michigan General

[redeye]

Dean, for those of you who don't know, is probably the sceond most pro-Jewish candidate in the primary, after Lieberman. His wife is Jewish, he raises his children secular-Jewish, and he is tied to AIPAC.

Now, there's no doubt that Jews will vote Democratic en masse. There are 26 Jewish Representatives of whom 1 is Republican, 1 is Socialist, and 24 are Democratic, and 11 Jewish Senators, of whom 2 are Republican and 9 Democratic (and the blaance would've probably been 1-10 had Wellstone not died).

My doubt is mostly about Arabs and Michigan. AFAIK, Arabs generally voted for Bush in 2000 because they are more middle- and upper-middle-class than most, and are also relatively socially conservative. In 2004, needless to say, they won't, not after Bush's benevolent policies toward Palestine and Iraq. Will Dean, who's pro-Israeli and pro-AIPAC, be able to attract them to the Democratic party? There are relatively a lot of Arabs in swing-state Michigan, which might lean more Democratic if the Democrats manage to attract Arab voters.

So, will pro-Israeli and pro-Jewish Dean be able to attract Arab voters in Michigan enough to make the state remain Democratic?

[w4rma]

1. Dean opposed the Iraq-war. He will do fine with the Arab/Muslim vote (n/t)

[expatriot]

2. Let's start saying "pro-Zionist" instead of "pro-Jewish"..

Call me nit picky for the terms, but I think if we start referring to people who support Zionism as "Pro-Jewish" or "Jewish" it opens us up to being called "anti-Jewish" or "anti-semetic."

I am anti-Zionist not anti-Jewish. I am also an avid Dean supporter and I have heard this/known this for a long time. Hey, I don't care for trial lawyers very much but I still liked Clinton.


Please don't use the term "pro-Jewish," it makes the anti-Zionist side look bad... the vast majority of us are so far from being anti-Jewish it is unbelievable... it is just a broad brush the pro-Zionists try and paint us with... you calling them "pro-Jewish" does not help at all.

)on edit: typos... prolly more... i am going to bed.

[redeye]

5. Words, just words

Zionism is a word for Israeli, or rather Jewish, nationalism. One can't be pro-Zionist any more than one can be pro-liberal, pro-communist, or pro-pro-choice.

Dean's not really a Zionist; he's pro-Israeli in the sense that he supports AIPAC and is pretty pro-Israeli in the Arab-Israeli conflict (though not pro-Likud), but he's not a Zionist.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I know a lot of Jews who are anti-Zionist

and you have made a really good point. Many Jews don't like what has happened in Israel, and don't approve of Sharon and what is happening. They especially hate it when these people use "anti-Jewish" rhetoric to hide their own bad deeds.

[charlie]

3. If Dean makes it to the top of the ticket

I'd say yeah, he's likely to get their vote. AAs are not just steamed, but frightened about Bush and Ashcroft's heavy-handed enforcement of the Patriot Act. They may be next year's most cohesive Anyone But Bush demographic.

[redeye]

7. But...

...will Dean convince them that he'll be different? You can bet that Lieberman won't. Blacks, for example, are very Democratic but some Democrats won't inspire them enough to vote in sufficiently high numbers.

[charlie]

8. No, odious Joe wouldn't,

I agree. They'd probably stay home. But Dean has at least paid lip service to concerns about the Patriot Act's overreach. They know they'll get no relief from the government's hairy eyeball with Bush, I really don't think many of them will throw their lot with him next time.

[expatriot]

4. "So, will pro-Israeli and pro-Jewish Dean..."

I guess I am pro-Israeli and pro-Jewish also... I am just anti-Zionist. Jesus, dude... are trying to get people to think you are anti-semetic? We need to convince people in this country that it is possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-Semetic... that it is possible to be anti-Israel and not anti-Israeli.

[redeye]

6. By pro-Israeli...

...I mean that he generally supports the Israeli position in the Arab-Israeli conflcit more than he does the Palestinian position. By pro-Jewish I mean that he has ties to Jewish groups such as AIPAC and that he raises his children secular-Jewish.

BTW, start a thread on Chomsky if you want me to reveal my full position on anti-semitism.

[foo_bar]

12. does pro-Islamic mean ties to Islamic groups such as Hezbollah?

By pro-Jewish I mean that he has ties to Jewish groups such as AIPAC

since you're a budding mathematician, allow me to describe it in set theory:

{Jewish groups} = {AIPAC, Tikkun, Gush-Shalom, ADL, Dreamworks, Not-In-My-Name, anti-Zionist Haredim, the Knesset...}
{AIPAC} ( {Jewish groups} <that's a "proper subset" if I could defeat html>
{Tikkun} ( {Jewish groups}

{pro-Israeli groups} = {AIPAC, ADL, the Knesset, Tom DeLay, ...}
{AIPAC} ( {pro-Israeli groups}
{Jewish groups} ^ {pro-Israeli groups} = {AIPAC, ADL, the Knesset, ...}

I can tell this is a lousy description of a Venn diagram, so I'll stand by the subject. Would it be more accurate to describe the Taliban as an "Islamic group" or "a violent subset of Islamic groups"?

One could argue that all Islamic groups are secretly violent Islamic groups, and all Jewish groups are secretly pro-Israeli groups. But one would be wrong.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Might come as a shock to you

The Prophet Mohammed had two Jewish wives, and didn't try to convert them. The Qu'ran says to respect the faiths of people of The Book, which means Jews and Christians, as they are part of the same spiritual lineage as Islam. In fifteenth century Moorish Spain, Jews were allowed to live and practice their faith-once the Moors were kicked out in 1492, the Christians who took over forced the Jews to convert or move.

The problem isn't with Jews, it's with Zionism, which can be defined as this idea that Jews and only Jews should have the right to live in the land around Jerusalem, and that they have the right to take lands of people who have lived there for centuries by any means possible, including terrorism.

I think what matters to Arab/Muslim Americans is what the candidate does rather than his faith. If the candidate seems reasonable and fair, they will vote for him.

[papau]

11. I am "pro-Jewish " and pro-Christain and pro- Islam and pro-Agnostic

What is the point of this thread?

That Arabs in Michigan are anti anyone who does not hate Jews?

Or are we discussing Sharon and the settlements and changing the route of the fence from the minor changes to the Green line discussed at Taba to the current land grab to include most settlements? - those I am anti - and I believe Dean is also.

[sangha]

13. redeye, listen to expatriot in post#2

and change your language from "pro-Jewish" to "pro-Isreal" and/or "pro-Zionist"

[Skinner]

14. I'm locking this thread.

I don't know what "pro-Jewish" means.

We certainly wouldn't want our candidates to be supportive of Jews, would we? </sarcasm>

Skinner
DU Admin

[StandWatie]

15. He's just whoring for money

It's not about "Jewish", 52% of American Jews think Americans for Peace Now (The liberal wing of the American Jewish community) has the right policies, Dean gave them the back of the hand and specifically said "No, I don't agree, I'm much closer to AIPAC's positions". American Jews that agree with AIPAC make up slightly more than 30% of American Jews and they probably vote Republican anyway.

AIPAC however has way, way deeper pockets and they aren't partisan, he knows he can get a nice chunk of change next election if he sucks up and says the right things. I don't know if he would actually do any of the things he says but every president since '67 has promised to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel (no one ever does).

I have no idea how he would act toward Israel, based on past experience his policy team would probably reclassify the West Bank and Gaza as "disputed territory", dump more money at Israel but whine a lot more in public while privately covering for them.

I don't know what to do about it though, I mean unless Arab Americans start an organization like AIPAC this is how it's going to work in American politics and they aren't going to get a better deal from Bush honestly.