RFIH: Yes LIHOP or MIHOP: No

[Mick Knox]

I have seen plenty of evidence that our resident monkey was asleep at the wheel and is Responsible For It Happening... like the Capt. of the Titanic... he was incompetent. He nodded off during briefings or was off playing with his toy tanks, GI Joes, or whatever he does..

LIHOP requires that he actually paid attention and planned out his response according to what he knew would happen... I dont see that. I havent seen reputable sources make that claim. I havent seen reputable evidence of that.

MIHOP requires he planned it... Not only does that timeline not fit... but thats WAAAAAAAAAAY more credit than I would give him... this is a guy that cant plan a speech.. let alone 911.

Those are my thoughts.

Spelling edit

[Veggie Meathead]

1. Not if you realize he is just a figurehead.

[NuckinFutz]

2. At the risk of proving the extent of my ignorance...

What is LIHOP?

What is MIHOP?

[LynzM]

3. Let It Hppen or Made It Happen

On Purpose, re: 9/11....

I might lean toward LIHOP, as a figurehead just following orders, but can't say * himself LIHOP or MIHOP. Not enough planning ability, in my opinion.

[NuckinFutz]

5. Thank you for clarifying that. n/t

[Mick Knox]

6. On Purpose is the Key.. I would agree with Let it Happen

through incompetence.. on purpose indicates aforethought and planning.

I have yet to see evidence of that.

[Sterling]

13. He was not part of the opperational phase

He was just there to be the sock puppet PNAC needed to take advantage of 9-11. It is not so much Bush that LIHOP/MIHOPed but rather people that he represents. It is clear he did his part which was to do nothing and make the work of the operational team easy/possible.

[AntiCoup2K4]

4. Junior is a mindless drone, but the neocons are experts at this shit.

And this was not just a handful of PNAC'ers, it was literally an international conspiracy. Obviously the Saudis were involved. Pakistani ISI. Mossad in all probability. George Bush Jr's role in the whole thing was comparitively minor. They probably sent him to Crawford for a month so he wouldn't fuck it up, were the truth to be known.

[jobycom]

7. That's about right.

Not saying you've proven he was only derelict, but so far there is no actual evidence of LIHOP, and certainly none of MIHOP. There is evidence that SUGGESTS the possibility of both, especially LIHOP, but nothing YET which proves that he knew of the specific threat and deliberately allowed it to happen.

There's a lesser version of LIHOP, even MIHOP. Bush wanted an excuse to go to war with Afghanistan, so he pushed the Taliban to turn over Bin Laden, then left the door open so they could get through, expecting that they would try something, but not knowing what.

LIHOP-- there are days when everything slips into a certain pattern and I wonder... Even am tempted to speculate... But so far the other possibilites make more sense. I would either need hard evidence that it was LIHOP, or I would need for all lesser options to be disproven by something. As long as the lesser options fully explain what happened, I can't make the leap to LIHOP.

[el_gato]

10. the problem is the lesser options don't fully explain these events

especially when you consider the desired goals of groups like CFR and PNAC.

When the questions that need answers have real answers instead of shifty explanations then maybe you can go with the official explanation. The problem is those explanations are fraught with contradictions.
You can say "agnostic" maybe but I don't see how anybody can buy into the official story.

[Sterling]

20. Yes you have to have the ability to keep all this info in your head

at one time. :eyes: Sure if you isolate one piece of the puzzle it does not spell LIHOP/MIHOP. Taken as a whole it says nothing but LIHOP/MIHOP.

[Sterling]

16. no actual evidence of LIHOP, and certainly none of MIHOP

This seems to be a matter of perspective. Many feel their is plenty of evidence for both. I agree with that in fact as the evidence is not being followed up on it does not mean it does not exist.

I don't see how you can look aty the whole case and say there is NO evidence. I could understand you saying we need more follow up on certain items but to say there is nothing is untrue to the extreme.

[Bombtrack]

8. They were incompitent and negligent. There is no evidence that

we have dozens if not hundreds of people at the highest level of government and media with an acceptance of American genocide that be neccessary to plan, coordinate and conceil 9-11. Sorry, republicans are largely accustomed-to-conservative-dogma dickheads, not murderers. And of course I have to suffice to say that being involved in pushing unpopular wars and conflicts is not the same thing on any reasonable ideological sphere.

[el_gato]

11. look at the history of covert operations

these types of things have gone down throughout history

As well, if you look at the elitist establishment and understand their world view it is easy to understand how this could go down.
When exposure of something as heavy as mihop or lihop could bring down the entire edifice it is easy to understand how they could keep as much as possible under wraps.

I see way to many people desepratly clinging to the idea that we live in a civilized world.

[gandalf]

9. Think again

MIHOP requires he planned it No.

MIHOP does not mean Bush made it happen on purpose.

Bush is not the person to suspect, nor is his gang. But there are others whose job it is to accomplish covert operations.

[Mick Knox]

12. Any claim can be made without evidence..

None of the very reputable people in the Senate or on the commission are making this claim. I believe they have shown incompetence... I dont believe they have shown, are showing, or will show LIHOP or MIHOP. LIHOP ... I think you can come closer to that, if you leave "on purpose" to insinuate dereliction..but MIHOP... no way.

[gandalf]

14. But that wouldn't be fruitful

I only wanted to point out that your statement "MIHOP requires he planned it" is not a valid argument. It is simply not true.

[Sterling]

17. They are avoiding the tough questions.

I'm am sure if you take the time to read the widows list of questions you will understand the commission at this point has shown no interest in addressing any of the items that point to LIHOP or MIHOP. That means whitewash.

[gandalf]

19. Good hint!

Naturally we cannot produce evidence for MIHOP, but evidence for fact that the mainstream (people, press, politicians) simply ignore important questions.

[Sterling]

21. Give me half of the latitude Ken Starr got

W and the Neocons frog march of into the sunset. We just need this information in the hands of someone willing to hold them accountable.

It's a horrible shame that we can't rely on the Dems for this. In their own way they have become complicit.

[gandalf]

22. Thats right.

By "we" I meant simple spare-time internet researchers like me who have to make a living.

A real investigative body could accomplish somewhat better results...

[Sterling]

18. Go to cooperativeresearch.org

Then after you spend a good week or two getting up to speed we can talk about evidence and "claims" and such and have a real conversation.

I am not trying to be rude. It is hard to follow this story and stay informed. There is no way you could understand what is being discussed without devoting a nice chunk of time to doing your own research and vetting it with others.

I hope you take the initiative to look into it in a meaningful way. Many once skeptical DUers have and been grateful they did.

[bahrbearian]

15. Yes, He didn't pesonally make Al Queda but he

let them make his Pearl Harbor, in this case Let and Made are almost the same, he needed the reason.

[el_gato]

23. people who dismiss M/Lihop, always do it out of hand

Now if you want to consider the evidence and actually talk about it
then that is one thing, but those of you who come here and dismiss it
almost always do it in an offhanded way.

I know that makes it easier for you but.....

[rman]

24. of course he did not personally plan anything.

can't plan a speech, but he does speeches anyway;
because other people make the speeches.

And the Plans.


In other words, MIHOP does *not* require that he planned it. All he had to do was play along.

Or would you say that Cheney, Wolfy, Rummy, Condi etc etc etc, are also stupid?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. There are quite a few questions that Junior has yet to answer...

<http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html>

One more point...Junior didn't have to participate in any of the planning necessary to make 911 LIHOP or MIHOP. All he had to do was carry out his part of the aftermath.

[Mick Knox]

26. Lengthy good read.. and I read it.

I see lots in there that shows a slow reaction; which is a typical of his disinterested personality and overall incompetence, but even the segment

Air Force One Takes Off Without Fighter Escort


Military planes should have been over Sarasota by the time Bush left Booker at 9:35 a.m. Yet, as will be described below, more than one hour after Air Force One took off, there were still no fighters protecting it!

shows more of a lackadaisical attitude. than LIHOP or MIHOP.

What am missing. I'll look it, I have the page still open, but what does this article show exactly?

Lets LIHOP for a second..

He knows we will be attacked; maybe we'll say he didn't know all the details. he would definitely protect himself at least, right?

The article contradicts that train of thought.

We have truly the most incompetent man who has ever stepped foot in the white house. His inability to handle any situation correctly leaves my jaw on the desk, but I'm sorry. I still have yet to see evidence of the LIHOP or MIHOP.

I think the fact of the slow reactions on the part of even the Secret Service or the other protection agencies (NORAD etc as shown by that time line) show they were taken completely off guard.

I dint want to get into a big argument; and you are entitled to your opinion, but I just do not see it. I did want to let you know I took the time to read your reference.

[el_gato]

28. he was never under any threat of being attacked

so your angle holds no water zwade

[Mick Knox]

30. well if we are going to be categorical

then, to be frank, I also feel the same about your "angle". I was trying to not be rude though, and hope for a better discussion on it. We'll just let it rest I guess.

Thanks for your "input".

[el_gato]

31. don't get defensive just cause I don't buy what you're suggesting

the incompetence line just does not hold up

[LunaC]

27. Consider.....

So far, no one has offered a plausible explanation for the following sequence of events:

In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. It was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so a gas pipeline could be built there.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7969.pdf.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm


Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html


Meanwhile, the U.S. Embassy in the UAE received a call that Bin Laden supporters were in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives. It was rumored that Bin Laden was interested in hijacking U.S. aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/04/10/whitehouse.pdf


In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html


In September 2001 the "catastrophic and catalyzing" modern-day Pearl Harbor envisioned years earlier by the PNAC came to pass when the WTC and Pentagon were attacked with U.S. aircraft. Immediately, the finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911 hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell.

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=1454238160


In October 2001, with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "War On Terror" and the hunt for Osama began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting

[el_gato]

29. the myth of "mindless" george

look at how skillfully they pulled off the bait and switch to
justify this invasion with complete support of the media
and tell me he's just an incomepetent boob.

It doesn't add up.