Turin Shroud 'shows second face'

[emad]

From BBC News:
<snip>
New research into the Turin Shroud has added to the mystery surrounding the controversial artefact.

A second ghostly image of a man's face has been discovered on the back of the linen, according to a report published by London's Institute of Physics.

The delicate 14ft-long linen sheet is believed by some to be the cloth in which Jesus was wrapped after being taken down from the cross. It has been dismissed by others as an elaborate hoax.

The back of the shroud has rarely been seen as it was hidden beneath a piece of cloth sewn on by nuns in 1534, after it was damaged by fire. But the back surface was exposed during a restoration project in 2002.
Snip>
More:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3621931.stm

[Ilsa]

1. I thought the shroud fantasy was debunked years ago

with testing. It isn't old enough, IIRC. But they keep hoping and hanging on...

[papau]

2. Dust and grain at edges indicate 13th Century - but center area

never tested, and carbon dating of threads at edge inconclusive to many.

I blame the Masons and DaVinci!

:-)

[Gildor Inglorion]

8. Don't forget the Merovingians...

trying to divert attention from themselves.

[Az]

12. The fact that the vatican has the signed statement that it was a forgery

of course has no bearing on the matter. Its a known forgery. The tests showed the linen linked to the same era as the forgery letter claimed. There are of course those that will not let go and they currently cling to a contamination theory that postulates that a mold (IIRC) had contaminated the carbon dating. Unfortunately for their case the amount of contamination required to sway the measurements as they see it would require 3 times the weight of the material in the first place. You simply cannot have that amount of contamination and still have cloth left.

[arcane1]

27. perhaps they should try faith-based science instead

:evilgrin:

seems like they spend more effort trying to date this thing to the "time of Jesus" than they spend verifying their own holy book!

[FlaGranny]

18. There was a good case made that

the shroud image is a self portrait by Leonardo and it certainly does resemble other self portraits done by him. I believe it, and I believe he played one of the biggest "jokes" in history.

[emad]

21. The latest theory is that this is Leonardo's finest attempt at

producing the world's first photography technique using silver compounds.

He was certainly a genius whose full talents have been kept securely under wraps: the Mona Lisa/La Gioconda are widely believed to be the epitome of his artistic skills. But he painted another four in this series which are the subject of intense secrecy by the owners who acquired them in the last 40 years in Europe. They dwarf the other two which are in the Louvre....Those who have seen them can only wonder at the insurance bills.......

[Az]

22. Here some tricks show it is a painting

Where are your eyes? Are they at the top of your head like the Shroud's? No. You eyes are actually more towards the middle.

Next try this one. Lie down. Now while lying down and not hunching your shoulders cover your crotch. You can't do it. It was an artistic attempt at modesty to keep them covered.

[papau]

24. I agree all seems to point to a painting - but "proof" is subjective -

and given that Church does not care - it does not need a shroud to proclaim the faith - why not have science have a second go and this time nail it down?

There may be a book in the exercise!

:-)

[Az]

25. There is also

the amazingly total lack of any contemporary evidence concerning a real living Jesus. There is a giant Jesus shaped hole in the center Christianity's psyche. And there is a desperate need to have this hole filled. The shroud is just the thing they desire the most. While the Church officially does not condone supply evidence to build faith I certainly is not above letting a controvercy linger and allowing the people to fill the void with their hopes and dreams built upon this canard.

[emad]

26. Relics= Big Business=full coffers....

Nothing like a gruesome burial cloth to keep the money flowing...

[papau]

32. Az - I love your posts - but I disagree as to evidence concerning a real

living Jesus

Indeed there may be "too much evidence" about the real living Jesus - as in 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters - to make the "Mary rose to Heaven without sin" folks unable to sell the idea she also never had that dirty sex thing going - unless we are going with the idea she and old Joe adopted a few kids - which is always a possibility - since "proof" is subjective!

[SheepyMcSheepster]

3. i thought so too,

but when has science ever mattered to religion?

[sniffa]

5. conspiracy

http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/relics/shroud-of-turin/

is a good read for it.

[emad]

9. It's probably Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Order of

Knights Templar and "Godfather" to the son of Phillip Le Belle.
The Templars were the first Catholic Church bankers. So he could be described as a kind of God's Banker/Roberto Calvi character, only it wasn't Blackfriars Bridge where they topped him....

Some info on him on:
http://www.templarhistory.com/demolay.html

[Toucano]

10. "Secrets of the Dead"

The PBS show did a story about it last week. It is, I guess, pretty well accepted now that the carbon dating was seriously flawed.

It was an interesting show.

[emad]

15. There was a story on UK TV the other week about this. They

tested a technique involving some compound of silver to produce a photographic effect and theorised that the Turin shroud is likely to be a 13th/14th century example of this. The tests on the burn marks on the shroud were all positive for silver traces.

Edit: Channel 4 TV shroud links:

Shroud of Turin
www.shroud.com/
Website of Barrie Schwortz, expert on the shroud. Contains loads of information, pictures and an interactive section.

Shroud of Turin
www.shroudstory.com/early.htm
Another very comprehensive site, which is accessible and interestingly presented.

Shroud of Turin
www.csicop.org/articles/shroud/index2.html
An account of the controversy which documents the scientific evidence and concludes that the image on The Shroud of Turin is the work of an artist, and not the imprint of a body.

The Shroud of Turin – McCrone Research Institute
www.mcri.org/Shroud.html
Dr McCrone and his colleagues carried out extensive research on the Shroud of Turin. Their conclusion is that the Shroud is a beautiful painting, created about 1355 for a new church in need of a pilgrim-attracting relic.

World Mysteries
www.world-mysteries.com/sar_2.htm
Places the Shroud of Turin the the context of other unresolved mysteries. Explains all the different theories and has a good list of resources.

[Toucano]

17. I bet that's the same show.

The one I saw had that part too. That was amazing.

They should test for that silver compound.

I thought the microbe theory was the most plausable.

[LeahMira]

4. Who is "right"?

We look at the moon and "see" a face. Others look at the moon and "see" a rabbit.

A lot depends on what we've been told we will see. If someone expects to see a face on a piece of cloth, they probably will see just that.

[JHB]

6. "Dismissed by some"?

Then again, there wouldn't be much of a story if they fully acknowledged that the most exhaustive verifiable attempt to date the shroud puts it in the Middle Ages, which makes makes all the reso of it bunk.

http://www.valleyskeptic.com/shroud.htm

[dsewell]

7. Shouldn't there be three faces?

Or am I getting my Trinitarian theology mixed up with something Hindu?

(Now if they find the outline of an elephant's trunk on the Turin shroud we'll know something odd is going on...)

[On the Road]

11. And People Still Believe in It -- Go Figure!

I don't understand the amount of sophisticated analysis that's gone into the shroud when researchers ignore the most undeniable proof that's it's a fraud.

The twin images of the front and back of the head, and the space between them, would only form an imprint like this if Jesus were cut out of plywood. Think about wrapping a towel over your wet head and then unfolding it on a table. Would it look like two ovals or like a wrinkled mess?

The second image was probably the original painting, which didn't turn out too well and was scrapped. The cloth was then washed.

[gpandas]

13. shroud, et.al.

"Look, itsa madonna, shesa cry"

[jmowreader]

14. If it makes them feel better...

to think Jesus was wrapped in the Shroud of Turin after he was crucified, I say we let 'em think that way.

[annak110]

16. Yup, now with two European faces

such nonsense!

[Lorien]

31. Face never looked European to me

my best friend is Jewish and looks exactly like the image on the shroud. He can't go anywhere without a "save me Jesus" comment coming from someone.

[hatrack]

19. Is the second face that of Mel Gibson?

Talk about boffo box office!

[OneBlueSky]

20. OMG! . . . they found Jimmy Hoffa! . . . n/t

.

[TimMooring]

23. Stains on sheets

Mllking the religion teat. Boring. Leave it for a few more years and there'll be a third and a forth "face" in the shroud. I just hope they remembered to thoroughly remove the "Made in China" label. The fact that religious artifacts are back in hot vogue again is "troubling". Fingers of Christ anyone? Single digits or the deluxe 10pack.

[TimMooring]

28. This thread got me laughing - thx everyone!

According to a well known authority there are 3 major profit areas in the church: Blessings, Curses and Religious artifacts. I'm sure they've outsourced customer support to (mostly) Hindu India by now. It would make a good Monty skit.

But speaking of the Vatican (were we?) I'm a practical person and every time I see that poor pope with his head lolling over to the (right) side, I can't help but wonder "Why don't they take that big heavy hat off his head?" Jeez.

[Papa]

29. New news that I did not see reported here on this thread

New evidence suggests that the controversial Shroud of Turin - the supposed burial cloth of Jesus Christ - may be genuine after all. Recent testing appeared to have conclusively shown that the religious relic dated to only 800 years ago, but new analyses don't agree.

Key to the new evidence is the stitching on the shroud - in particular, the type of needlework done on a seam. Swedish textiles expert Dr Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, who discovered the seam at the back of the cloth during a restoration project, says: "There have been attempts to date the shroud from looking at the age of the material, but the style of sewing is the biggest clue.


"It belongs firmly to a style seen in the first century AD or before."


Her findings seem to disagree with carbon-dating tests done on the shroud in 1988, which resulted in the conclusion that the shroud dates to medieval times, more than 1,000 years after the death of Jesus.




http://www.phenomenamagazine.com/0/Editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Alternate%20History&action=page&obj_id=848

[ramblin_dave]

30. The carbon dating was possibly flawed

New evidence indicates that the sample strip cut from the edge of the shroud consisted of original and newer threads using a technique for repairing tattered cloth commonly used in the middle ages. If true, then the carbon dating test was flawed.

[alfredo]

33. A resercher from the U of K was dismissed from the team when he

found vermillion, red paint, on the parts depicting blood.

His name was something like Nichols. It has been a few years.

[ramblin_dave]

35. Paint traces have been found in very small amounts

but not nearly enough to account for the image, and not consistent with the image itself. The image is not paint. The blood stains are not paint. That has been established beyond doubt. Small flecks of paint probably got on the shroud by placing paintings against it.

[porkrind]

34. You gotta be kidding me.

Are you seriously posting this crap here? Don't we have real issues to think about instead of superstitious religious hoaxes? Come On! This is as stupid as the National Enquirer claiming Jesus' face can be seen in water stains on a hotel room ceiling. It's not even a funny hoax. Superstitious christians. WTF? Sheesh.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[TimMooring]

36. You got me in stitches! nt

[Hunter_1253]

37. It amazes me that intelligent people...

can fall for these same hoaxes time and time again. The carbon dating techniques were never conclusive because of thread irregularities and the fact the Catholic Church would never submit the shroud to be properly sampled to correct for that. They didn’t want to destroy any piece of a sacred relic, and unfortunately carbon dating is a destructive test. This way, the doubt could remain and the shroud would appear real. That is until Spectrophotometry, a nondestructive method, was used. The "portrait" is done with dyes, not paint. You can't scrape the dye off, but you can analyze the way light reflects or is absorbed from it. Compared to real blood, the colorant was determined to be vegetable dye. The dyes were traced to the Middle Ages by comparing them to other samples with known origins. Science = 14, Theology = 0.

[papau]

39. image is superficial, involving only the outermost linen fibers - HOW

no known method - even today.

But the interesting item is that so many are concerned about this - as if creation is not enough of a miracle

[Zomby Woof]

38. a good link to the second picture

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1005276