A Modest Proposal for the Middle East

[ThorsteinVeblen]

We advocate the invasion of Saudi Arabia and the arrest, trial and execution of the elites who underwrote terrorist acts in Israel and the terrorist attacks in the United States on 9/11. Wahhibism shall be removed as the offical, state-sanctioned religion and its practitioners shall be forbidden to enforce its "moral" precepts on those who do not adhere to them. The Saudi Arabian ban on the travel and residency of people of Jewish heritage shall be eliminated and state-sponsored anti-semitic propaganda shall cease.

Egypt shall be punished for its state-sponsored anti-semitic propaganda by witholding the 3 billion dollars of annual aid given by the United States.

Syria shall stop all funding of militant Islamic groups within Israel and the occupied territories. Any violation sponsored by or tacitly approved by the Syrian government shall be grounds for immediate military action and possible occuption.

Iran shall stop all funding of militant Islamic groups within Israel and the occupied terrirtories. Any violation sponsored by or tacitly apporved by the Iranian government shall be grounds for immediate military action and possible occupation.

We advocate the removal of the Sharon Government as well as the Palestinian Authority and the liberation of the Israeli and Palestinian people from their corrupt, evil leaders.

The experiment of a homeland for the Jewish people based on religious and ethnic identity has failed and is no more defensible or morally right than an Aryan homeland. At its root it is fundamentally racist and there is no moral argument for its existence.

Israel has weapons of mass destruction including nuclear weapons and has violated many more U.N. resolutions than Iraq. These facts coupled with Israel's constant human rights violations of the indigenous Arab population of the land occupied during the 1967 war and Israel's refusal to cease settlements illegal under international law demand swift action.

The security wall currently under construction shall be blown up and all Israeli settlements illegal under international law shall be destroyed. Anyone who resists shall be subject to military tribunals and execution as an enemy combatant.

Arafat shall be imprisoned, the Palestinian Authority disbanded and Hamas and Islamic Jihad crushed through the use of military force. Anyone who resists shall be subject to military tribunals and execution as an enemy combatant.

Occupational rule shall be established over Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and a single, unified democratic government established. New leaders representative of both the Jewish and Arab populations of the American occupied territory shall be chosen by representatives of the United States government and shall be consulted during the creation of the new government. The Constitution shall include democratic provisions and guarantee the right of every citizen, regardless of ethnic or religious identity, to equal treatment under the law and municipal codes. Religious monuments shall remain as they currently are - any decimation or destruction of religous monuments shall be swiftly and severly punished. As most religious monuments are of a shared heritage, they shall be open to all people regardless of ethnic or religous identity. Power shall be handed over to a local provisional government once stability is established and elections replacing the provisional leaders shall be phased in one a year, every year over 6 years. Only, at the end of 6 years, after a fully constitutional and democratic government is established shall the United States cease to occupy the territory.

[JackRiddler]

1. Who is we?

Sounds great, if you can get the Federation to do it. Let the Vulcans run the planet.

But you're not talking about the United States are you? In that case, you're talking about World Wars Four through Nine, at least.

[Wonder]

11. Yes Edicts from the Far Out Realm

Beyond SDI. That is how it struck me too. I would prefer AmeriKa be held in line as well, but it seems these dictates are coming rom "The Realm Beyond" I am wonder which galaxy get the bit on its new flag, emblem and logo?

[Aidoneus]

2. sounds a little familiar

Maybe Donald Rumsfeld or Richard Perle and their faction would like it, if you'd just remove the parts about Israel. As if the problem was not enough US aggressions and occupations..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. What Happens To The Israeli's

who would refuse to give up their state?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

16. Imprisoned as enemy combatants or killed

Just like what happens to the "dead-ender" Iraqis.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. You

mean like the Final Solution.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

26. No, I mean like Iraq

Most Israelis want nothing but peace and a chance to live and grow and prosper with their Palestinian neighbors. The problem with Israel is the leadership - just like in Iraq. You remove the cancer at the head of the beast and then let it heal itself.

Those who are part of the cancer and can't be cured must fall by the wayside. There will be no pogrom or death camps. There will only be military action against those who resist liberation. Those who don't fight until the death will be tried by Military Tribunal and appropriately punished if found guilty of any crime.

The same exact policy for any Arab/Islamic militants who refuse to submit to our new vision of peace.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Most Israeli's

want a two state solution. You could fit those Israelis who want to surrender their sovereignty and live in a multi ethnic state in a phone booth.

The whole exercise is academic since comparisons between the IDF and the Iraqis are laughable.

The Israeli's literally have the ability to turn the entire Middle East into radioactive rubble; a power Saadam could only dream of having.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

28. "Comparisons between the IDF and the Iraqis are Laughable"

Only in that the IDF is better armed than the regular Iraqi army.

"The Israeli's literally have the ability to turn the entire Middle East into radioactive rubble; a power Saadam could only dream of having."

Even more of a reason to invade now. Israel is much more dangerous than Iraq ever was.


"Most Israelis want a two state solution"

No, most Israelis want to live in peace and prosper and are not idelogues. They want a practical, workable solution. Our contention is that a two state solution is not viable. Israel will demand control over the water rights in the West Bank and is already in the process of ethnically cleansing East Jerusalem through abuse of racist municipal codes. Any chunk of land left over after Israel is done will be akin to an American Indian reservation or a South African "homeland". It will not be a viable state. Thus the violence will continue and Israel will see no peace.

Again the problem is that the a state based on religous or ethnic identiy is fundamentally racist and will continue to foment violence until it is cured of its racist character.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. You Can't Invade

because of their nuclear deterrent.

Confronted with your doomsday scenario they would definitely "shoot their wad" which would literally result in over 100,000,000 deaths. Do the math, they are rumored to have 300-400 nuclear missiles each one at least one hundred time stronger than the ones we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The devestation would be mind boggling.

The Israeli's were not really better armed than the Iraqis. Just better trained and better motivated. I know for a fact that Iraq had the fourth largest military in the world prior to Gulf War 1 if standing army and armarments is your measure.

There is no support in Israel for a one state solution.I'd like to see one survey that suggests there is.

Your plan in it's current form is unworkable.

I favor a two state solution to the apocalypse but hey, we're all doing what we can.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

36. Who is Israel going to bomb?

1.) Themselves? I don't even Sharon is this stupid.

2.) The U.S.? They don't have missles with that kind of range.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. How About

3) Their nemesises- the Arabs.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

44. Why would Israel bomb the Arabs if the US was also invading

Saudi Arabia at the same time?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I Don't Know

Settle old scores.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

51. Any nuclear attack by Israel would be met tenfold

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. Actually -

under your scenario I could see an Israeli-Arab rapprochement with the Israelis and Arabs fighting the American imperialists.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

54. Well if we can't unite them in the "road to peace" might as well unite

them this way.

[Wonder]

4. LOL you're on a roll with this ThorsteinVeblen

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=5009&mesg_id=5009

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. And I thought Wolfie was mad

Heck, you got him beat with this post.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Who's Wolfie

And it sounds like Mr. Veblen wants to precipitate the end of the world.

I prefer to muddle through.

[Aidoneus]

8. Paul Wolfowitz? *nt*

.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Exactly

The one and only. Until this thread.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

21. Paul Wolfowitz is a Likudnik

And would never advocate the invasion of Israel nor the destruction of its existence as a Jewish homeland.

[Jacobin]

7. A more modest proposal

Instead of favoring one side or the other (they are all morally corrupt and insufferable and determined to drive each other from the face of the earth)...let's sell arms to both sides. No favoritism and no gifts. Let them blow each other up, since it is clear that is what both sides are determined to do to their last breaths.

The world will be a better place when they've finished eliminating each other.

[Wonder]

9. here is another idea

In a passing conversation I had with someone at a sushi restaurant, this guy I was talking to came up with this:

Since this whole thing seems to hinge upon who will possess the HolyLand. He suggested to set a date, before which all in the area would be evacuated to a safe distance away. And once all were evacuated bomb the damned place to smithereens. Then no one can have it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Favoring a side

Hmmm, could it be that the U.S. favors the side that favors us? Favors the side that has been our ally throughout the Cold War till now?

No, that would make sense.

[Jacobin]

17. And what, exactly, does an alliance with Israel

do to enhance America's geopolitical security?

Nice try.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

19. Nothing

But the invasion and transformation of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip from a Jewish homeland to a secular, inclusive, non-ethnicity based Democracy is beneficial for everyone including the US except for the Israeli and Arab dead-enders.

The I/P conflict is at the root of anti-American terrorism as are the religous/monarchal characters of the Arab regimes in the middle east.

The simultanious secularization (i.e. the seperation of religion from government) of the Arab middle east coupled with the end of a racist, imperialist, Zioninst state solves the problem.

America's only interests are in the end of terrorism and the free flow of oil from the middle east. The free flow of oil benefits everyone including the Arab peoples in a secular Arab state.

We must invade Israel now.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

14. But only conventional weapons

[Jacobin]

18. Course, Israel has lots of "unconventional" weapons.

Maybe we should invade them since they are in violation of a couple of hundred UN resolutions and won't disarm.

Take away their nukes and WMD and then let them fight on a level playing field.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

20. Did you read the article?

See pargraph 7.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. How Could They Fight On A Level Playing Field

when there are two hundred million Arabs and five million Israelis.

I guess you think the Jews in occupied Europe were playing on a level playing field.

In any case, the Israeli's have 300-400 nuclear weapons, enough to take the whole Middle East with them.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

29. "In any case, the Israeli's have 300-400 nuclear weapons"

Which is why we need to invade quickly and surprise them. Immediate action is required.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. How do you suprise them?

You mean the way we "suprised" Iraq by building up our forces for six months in neighboring countries.

Memo To Thorstein:

Your plan in it's current form is unworkable. Go back to the drawing board and report later.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

39. This is a rough draft

And only meant to stimulate dialogue.

I propose we invade from Iraq through nothern Turkey and Southern Syria. We have the forces stationed there.

Any nuclear strike made by Israel would be answered tenfold which would also take care of the problems that have been associated with the "holyland" for the past 3000 years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. "We Have The Forces Stationed There"

You are going to take the troops in Iraq which number around 140,000 and turn them into some expeditionary force that will trespass the desert to invade Israel. Wow- you will have lines of supply that are what 500, 1000 miles.

The IDF would make mincemeat out of these lines.

I think you should refine your plan by consulting somebody who has actually conducted a military campaign.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

50. We will leave the military planning up to the military planners

We will set the political goals though. And they will be achieved.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

40. This is a rough draft

And only meant to stimulate dialogue.

I propose we invade from Iraq through nothern Turkey and Southern Syria. We have the forces stationed there.

Any nuclear strike made by Israel would be answered tenfold which would also take care of the problems that have been associated with the "holyland" for the past 3000 years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Where We Going To Get Our Oil For The Next Fifty Years

and where will Muslims pray when Mecca and Medina are turned into Hirsoshima and Nagasaki.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

45. Why would Israel bomb Mecca if it is the US that is doing the invading?

Wouldn't Israel be also be contaminated in the fallout?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. Under Your Scenario They Are Finished Anyway

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I Can't Even Imagine The Logistics of This Operation

[ThorsteinVeblen]

46. It's easy

Overwhelming force. No Quarter.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. I Guess

I guess the fact that millions will die including many poor Americans who joined the Armed Forces cuz they couldn't get a good job or wanted to go to college is of no moment to you

[ThorsteinVeblen]

56. Peace requires sacrifice

[Merlin]

10. You forgot the part about grinding the poor children into sausages.

Or maybe just Sharon and Arafat.
:-)

[ThorsteinVeblen]

15. Hey, I wouldn't object to a Sharon/Arafat McMuffin

Just so long as I don't have to eat it.

[sujan]

22. Who will punish the US?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

23. That is up to us.

Plus, the idea here is not punishment so much as the cessation of stupid ethnic strife that is putting the entire world at risk.

[CWebster]

30. I think we should stay out of Middle-eastern affairs

Quit meddling with their cultures, quit propping up and assisting tyrants. Quit allowing oil men decide policy and lastly quit providing financial and military support for Israel, the apartheid state.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

31. Isolationism will not work

The entire world is interconnected and the entire world is effected by the ethnic strife in the middle east.

The entire world must decide to solve to problem.

Ignoring it will not make it go away.

[CWebster]

35. Damn ,ThorsteinVeblen

I like this more than that fuddy-duddy ol' leisure class!

[CWebster]

32. Although...

I would change it to a UN occupation rather than a US occupation.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

33. The UN has not the military power to acheive a victory in Israel

But I see no problem with the UN providing the bulk of the occupying force since they are the ones who created Israel in the first place.

[Capt_Nemo]

41. well meaning imperialism is still imperialism, TV

The only solution is:
Enforce ALL the bleeding UNSC resolutions concerning the Middle East.
It is no magical recipe but it's the way that will cause less suffering
and death (and still there will be a lot of it).

[ThorsteinVeblen]

47. I say it is self defense and in the interest of the entire world

Those motives aren't imperial in nature.

[StandWatie]

57. who would believe that?

.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

58. Doesn't matter who believes it and who doesn't

[Ani Yun Wiya]

59. ThorsteinVeblen

A few questions:

1. Who do you mean by we?
2. In your opinion who would agree with this idea?
3. Just out of curiosity, which Democrat do you favor in '04?
4. What nationality are you?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

60. Ani Yun Wiya

1.) It is the Royal "We".

2.) http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/walras/bios/veblen.html
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~benjamin/316kfall/316ktexts/swift.html

"I shall now therefore humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection."

3.) Howard Dean

4.) American

ps - cool name.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

61. Thank you for your answers.

I trust that what was offered in your original post, was in a spirit akin to the links you offered.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

62. Read the Veblen biography carefully

Just because The Theory of the Leisure Class is "satire" doesn't mean it didn't contain truth or was unimportant.

[The Stranger]

63. In what order?

Can you number them in the chronological order in which each shall be undertaken?

This is the key.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

64. Saudi Arabia first as they are the greatest threat.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

65. Perhaps you can tell me why...

Saudi Arabia is the greatest threat.

And more so, why there is even among Democrats a blood lust, killing spree mood that now has that country as a target?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

66. All the terrorist funding from 9/11 came from the Saudi Arabian

elite including the Royal family. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabian. The offical religion of Saudi Arabia is Wahhabi fundamentalism that teaches jihad and death to Americans and Jews. Anti-Semitic propaganda including a documentary advocating the truth of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" are produced by the government in order to demonize Jews and Israel. The Bin Laden's, whose money still supports Osama, are Saudi citizens and supporters of terrorism.

Until this flow of money and hatred is stopped, America is in grave peril of another terrorist attack.

[StandWatie]

67. are you serious?

If you want to play follow the money about state government funding (real state government funding, not private citizens) you wind up in Pakistan playing geopolitics with the ISI and CIA competing to fund and train these people as a proxy force against Iran's Northern Alliance.

If you are wanting to get to the bottom of this in some military way you are better off bombing Langley and Islamabad, and while I have no use for Wahabbi or Deobandi Muslims or honestly the religious of any stripe it's hypocritical as hell to single them out when radical Christian fundamentalists have one of their own sitting as leader of the country.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

68. The money coming out of Saudi Arabia

"If you want to play follow the money about state government funding (real state government funding, not private citizens) you wind up in Pakistan playing geopolitics with the ISI and CIA competing to fund and train these people as a proxy force against Iran's Northern Alliance."

is akin to Reily Bechtel giving money to Kellog/Brown& Root in order to have their operatives bomb the Eifel Tower. The American Government will protect Reily Bechtel at all costs because he is a member of the American elite who rules this country. Plus it is very unlikely that Reily Bechtel would take such action without at least tacit approval from the people currently holding power in the US government. If you were France I would argue it would be justified for you to use military action in order to arrest Reily Bechtel.

[StandWatie]

69. where is US and Pakistani culpability

You have drawn these stark moral lines with damnable consequenses from those you have judged and left out two main actors :shrug:

[ThorsteinVeblen]

70. The two main actors in what? 9/11?

As far as America, either Wolfowitz and other NeoCons were involved or not. They need to be investigated, arrested, tried and if found guilty executed.

As far as Pakistan, I am unaware of them having more culpability than either the Taliban or the Saudi elite.

[leftofthedial]

71. Aww f*@k it

Let's just nuke 'em.

Love,
Paul Wolfowitz

[JohnKleeb]

72. sounds like something Wolfy would say

Also I wonder if Thorstein's ideal candiate, Dr. Dean would agree with this :shrug: something tells me no.