Mom who said she killed on God's orders

[raysr]

aquitted.http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/03/children.slain/ This is what we have to look forward to when the "thumpers" take over the judicial system and rule by the "Will of God". And Cala Faye got the death sentence. What kind of FREAKS live in Texas???

[freetobegay]

1. "What kind of FREAKS live in Texas???"

Bushs!

[oxymoron]

2. I'm sorry, but some people ARE actually insane.

If the woman is a schizophrenic she needs to be fucking treated and not punished. She did a terrible thing, but acute mental illness can do that. I think the amount of seriously mentally ill people that are convicted of crimes while not having access to medications or proper psychiatric treatment is a bloody outrage.

edit for typo

[liberalhistorian]

9. Thank you, I totally agree, and I'm sick

of the criminalization of mental illness. Mental illness is a DISEASE that needs to be TREATED. Obviously, this woman needed help long before she did this, and it appears her fundie family and friends ignored the signs because fundies consider mental illness to be a major no-no and a sign of "bad or evil character!"

It does piss me off, though, that this woman is acquitted while Andrea Yates, who was so obviously and extremely mentally ill (and her husband should also be held accountable for the deaths of their children since he ignored her illness and took her out of treatment despite pleas from her doctors) was convicted.

[Sparkly]

11. Andrea Yates!

That's the woman I was referring to in post #8.

[Arianrhod]

21. I agree, but...

This is the disturbing part of the story:

"'The dilemma she faced is a terrible one for a mother,' Files told the jury. 'Does she follow what she believes to be God's will, or does she turn her back on God?'"

Files apparently believes that this woman was genuinely told by God to kill her children. I would submit that he argued an insanity plea purely because, for the moment, that's the only way he could keep his client out of jail. But it looks as though he thinks she was right.

That is scary.

[theHandpuppet]

27. Or....

... faced with a God who would tell a person to slaughter their children by bashing their heads in with rocks, a person could decide that such a God is certainly not worth worshipping.

But hey, that's just me.

[Sandpiper]

22. And you've pointed out one of the biggest flaws of our justice system

There are people in this country who are insane and who commit crimes as a result of mental disease or defect. These people fall outside of the mainstream of criminal justice, but since our nation is so completely bent on the idea of punishment, we shoehorn these people into the system and hold them to the standard of a reasonable person when it couldn't be more obvious that they're not.

People like this woman should be institutionalized, not incarcerated.

[maveric]

23. Was John Wayne Gacy insane? What about Ted Bundy ot Timothy

McVeigh? Could medicatin have helped these killers? Most if not all murderers are somewhat insane IMO.

[oxymoron]

26. I'm not sure that any of those you mentioned

exhibited symptoms of psychosis or schizophrenia. Many serial killers appear normal to the people around them. That is not generally the case with a psychotic or schizophrenic.

[theHandpuppet]

29. Thank you

I never cease to be dismayed at what prides itself as a "civilized society" treating the mentally ill as if their disease is the fault of some moral failing or possession by demons.

The crime was horrible but the disease is REAL. Until we remove the ridiculous social stigma of mental illness, dragging its victims into court is a sham -- treatment, not punishment, is the only answer.

And pardon me for saying this, but organized religion in this country is a HUGE part of the problem. I grew up in a church in which mental illness was considered to be the shameful mark of someone possessed by demons or being punished by God. Such ignorant attitudes borne of religious zealotry only serve to discourage real treatment .

[Sparkly]

3. It happens

People who are psychotic (schizophrenic, and bipolar in the manic phase) often hallucinate and rant about God and Jesus... It's not that everybody who talks about God is insane, but alot of insane people talk about God, and think they hear from God. That is true.

[oxymoron]

4. exactly (nt)

[cavebat2000]

5. lol

reminds me of Bush

[MichaelHarris]

6. This is scary, I addressed it here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=110x4920

The real question was she found not guilty by reason of insanity because she killed her kids or because God talked to her? Using that precident then wouldn't shrub be guilty of invading Iraq because God told him to?

[raysr]

7. Texas

seems to have more than it's share of this fundamentalist "insanity".

[Sparkly]

8. I think it's because

people can rant about God and it's not considered strange there. Seriously. Remember the woman (I forgot her name) who drowned here children? Her husband is still talking on news stations, although he and another couple were pummeling this woman with religious dogma and guilt, not only ignoring but actually fueling her feelings of "failure as a woman of God" and as a mother, and her perceptions of the "imperfections" (or some such word) of her children...

She was found guilty, not insane, because apparently that's normal; and naturally her husband and that couple are free and normal.

[KharmaTrain]

10. Replace Jesus With Allah and She'd Fry

This lady deserves a long, long stay in a very, very padded cell. Another Stepford wife whose internal struggles and frustrations, manifested in the conveluted religion of Fundamental Christianity ended tragically.

Not only she feels she's absovled of this crime, since she did it in the name of Jesus, but I'm certain many others in that strange Fundie world feel the same way. If Jesus said to kill the kids, then she must have heard right.

For certain if she wasn't a nice Christian woman...say she wore a chador or was black, there'd be no liency.

These are the same types of say jesus told them not to pay taxes or vote Repugnican. These poor bastards don't stand a chance.

[Sparkly]

12. They fry a lot of the Jesus-ranters, too

They're all mentally ill, as I see it. But you're right -- somebody ranting about Allah or Mohammed would be sent for help much sooner than somebody in Texas ranting about Jesus.

[oxymoron]

13. Spare me the armchair psychiatry.

Schizophrenia is a genetic disease. It has nothing to do with being a Stepford wife, vague frustrations, political affiliation or religious beliefs. This very ill woman (and Andrea Yates for that matter) deserves hospitalization and treatment.

[KharmaTrain]

16. The Issue's The System...

Neither you nor I know what condition this woman is in...or what conditions drove her to do the unthinkable. No matter, this is tragic for all involved, including this woman who surely needs help.

My point is that the Fundamentalist culture looks upon what she's done with almost a wink and a nod...ready to offer her compassion, yet wouldn't do the same for a person in a similar situation if they were black or hispanic or non-white christian.

We saw in Susan Smith a victim, just as much as this woman...obviously mentally ill and in need of long term care, but also how she used her christianity as some justification. There is no justification, just the circumstances that lead a person to think that a person's illness is less severe since she's christian or "didn't know better".

[oxymoron]

28. sorry, I don't see the evidence that the Fundies look upon this

with a wink and a nod. In my experience they are far more prone to calling for punishment. From what I what I know about the case, it seems like a just decision.

I don't recall Susan Smith having a history of or exhibiting symptoms of psychotic breaks. If I recall correctly she had a history of depression which does not necessarily mean that her perception of reality was impaired.

[theHandpuppet]

30. I understood what point the poster was making...

... even though my own mother and brother suffer from the disease.

The incredible stress, guilt and confusion often placed on those who suffer from mental illnesses can only exacerbate the symptoms of the disease. In any society where conformity is considered a virtue, social isolation and ostracism of the victims not only serves to delay or deny real treatment to the victims, but places unbearable pressures on those least capable of dealing with them.

[cliss]

14. Hm.....sounds a little familiar.....

remember the man who stood at the smoking rubble of what used to be the Twin Towers and said, "God pointed his finger at me and said, 'don't let me down'.

George Bush has said many times that he is doing the will of God. I don't see much difference between the two.

[MichaelHarris]

15. remember that

Andrea Yates had a motive. She had been having an affair with a man who didn't want children. The jury may have taken that into consideration in their verdict. I don't mean to bash mental illness at all, all I want to address is the danger of extreme fundamentalism in this country and the White House. If she's insane because she heard the voice of God and killed her kids then what is the difference when bush hears the voice of God,

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you can help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
George W. Bush

And kills thousands of Iraqis?

[oxymoron]

17. that bullshit.

You ARE bashing the acutely mentally ill. Schizophrenia and psychosis have absolutely nothing to do with being an extreme fundamentalist.

[MichaelHarris]

18. actually no, we're not

Was Moses mentally ill when God talked to him? What jury comprised of men and women can decide when a person has heard the voice of God? What we are debating here the use of religion as an insanity plea tool. Most of us here agree with you, mental illness is a real condition. What we are discussing, without having the facts of course is the use of it as a defense in a murder trial. None of us sat in on the trial so we don't know the particulars of the case. We do however realize that people will use any defense they can to "get off". Remember, "If the glove don't fit, you can't convict"

ps. I only wanted to show the dangers of religious fundalism that is sweeping through the country, not to bash mental health issues.

[oxymoron]

25. I understand what you are saying.

I have seen absolutely no indication of religion being used as a defense in this case. Perhaps I missed something.

I am at a loss to understand how a psychotic person hearing the voice of God is somehow related to the rise of religious fundamentalism anymore than a like person hearing alien voices relates to the space program.

[MichaelHarris]

33. all we know

is in her testimony she claimed "God told her" to kill her kids. Hearing God doesn't necessarily make one psychotic but God telling her to kill her kids seems to be the act of an unreasonable person. Without us knowing the details of the case and how the jury arrived at an insanity verdict we'll never know if she was truly psychotic or she really heard "the voice of God". The debate I'm trying to focus on is that she was a deeply religious person who home schooled her kids. Taking the quote from the bible,

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

we see that she had a biblical reference for her actions. Now take a southern jury, from the Bible belt of America, and see the predicament we could be in with this bush/ashcroft fundamentalism sweeping our nation. Certainly no jury would of found her not guilty because the Bible said it was OK but they could have offered the lesser of 2 evils, a not guilty by reason of insanity. We hope and pray that the Bible will not be used in deciding guilt or innocence but remember, this is the same country wanting to add a constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage because the Bible says its wrong. Who knows the limits these neo-cons will go to.

[raysr]

19. I think

that we'll be seeing more of this as these guys move ahead with their agenda.
http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=914
(read=914 is part of the link)"Christian Dominionists stand against Liberalism"http://www.web-ministry.com/linear.php?postID=8632

[MichaelHarris]

20. I thought

the apocalypse was at hand when I clicked that link because of all the pop-ups.

[nayt]

24. of course she's insane

but that doesn't mean she's not a danger to society. i say keep her institutionalized.

[PurityOfEssence]

31. This god guy's just nuthin' but trouble

I say people stop listening to him. Ya don't see non-believers doing things like this, even though they're infinitely morally uglier. I guess it's that age-old problem of squaring reality with sanctified fantasy that causes the mental rift.

At least the Texas support group should be flourishing...

[anarchy1999]

32. It is all about Money.

Money talks, BS walks............

This is Texas. We put the other mother in prison for life, you know the one from Houston who killed all her kids. We in Texas are not all FREAKS. We just have way too many FREAKS RUNNING THINGS. Think the "BUGMAN", mr DELAY. May we soon see him indicted in Texas and have to remove himself from the fray.

PS/ There are 2 candidates running against him in the upcoming election. I want to send DeLay back to bugs, and his extermination business. Anyone else want to help?

[snippy]

34. This should become known as the "Bush Defense."

[Teddy_Salad]

35. Mom who said she killed on God's orders

Hey! god told Dubya the same thing.

What's god doing down there in Texas?

[NicRic]

36. Watched details on court T.V. ....

of how this woman ,bashed the heads of her kids with a big rock .The details where so sickening I could not stand to listen to it thru the entire testemony. I just cannot believe the horror of a mother doing this to her own or any children. I try not to think about this horrorifict event. Its beyond my ability to even remotly understand .This is indeed a sick person, who is a pitiful excuse of a human being !