Are We So Insensitive as to Turn Death into a Political Event?

[The Lone Liberal]

Before we start down the road (which it seems we have) on the events that occurred today in Fulluja we might remind ourselves that the dead were some one's son, brother, perhaps father. We need to be more sensitive than to turn such an event into political fodder.

Iraq has provided enough death. It would be a shame to add to that casualty list the sensitivity we should all feel at someone’s death.

[DrWeird]

1. If it helps prevent more death...

then show the footage twenty four seven. Have it on every newspaper. Show it to school children. Screen it at the old folks home.

[The Lone Liberal]

3. The ends justify the means?

I for one reject that thesis. I have seen my fill of death and destruction.

[DrWeird]

6. Yes.

Ending the war justifies looking at footage of the war. Watch the footage, that's your tax dollars at work.

[Catch22Dem]

10. NO

When you use the "ends justifies the means" argument, it's the same argument the RIGHT uses for ousting Saddam. I won't be party to that.

[DrWeird]

13. I'm not saying all ends justify all means.

Just this end this means.

[Michael Costello]

22. absolutely

My brother was in Iraq, and there is a chance he might have to do a second tour. I want this thing cleaned up. The dead people are dead - if I knew for sure even making a mockery of their death would prevent one more death, I would gladly do so.

You talked abound means and ends. The ends is to prevent death. The means is talking about someone's death. This looks like very good and real ends, and a relatively unimportant means.

[The Lone Liberal]

32. Your brother doesn't have to go back.

He could say,"no"

[Michael Costello]

46. You can't say no

If you're re-deployed you either go, or go to the brig.

Remember, Eisenhower signed orders to execute people for desertion and the like in WWII. They don't do that nowadays, but people who have refused to go have been court-martialed.

I don't think he'd say no anyway. If they told him he would have to go, he would probably go, even if there was a way to wiggle out of it.

[The Lone Liberal]

58. Sure you can, during VN lots said no.

They went to the slam, but they didn't participate.

[qanda]

2. All I have to say is....

9/11! Non-stop politicizing of death of 3000 people by the Bush* Administration.

[The Lone Liberal]

5. I reject that also.

Politicizing death by anyone is anathema to me. The horror of war is just that a horror. But, to demand that we see the bodies being dragged through the streets, or rejoice because someone has died. No, that is not my way.

[qanda]

55. I am definitely *not* rejoicing

In fact, I think I've gotten some flack today because of responding in just the opposite way. Anyway, I do think it is fair to bring up the reasons we are in Iraq and what course of action we should take from this point. If not this, then what will it take to get an honest discussion going about what we are going to do about this quagmire?

[sweetheart]

4. We all die, its the truth

By that logic, then we should not politicize gun crime in inner cities
or drunken driving for fear of upsetting grieving relatives... as
in truth, more people are dying from car accidents, crime and in
our prison system than in iraq.

Take the media magnifier away for a moment and see a death as a
death... we're all falling off this planet at a rather astounding
rate. What makes some more important than others?

It is already political. This is a no-holds-barred civil war
transformed in to a sack of lies for popular consumption. Don't
pull your punches.

For bereaving families, George bush killed your kids. Make of that
what you might.

[The Lone Liberal]

11. What is the limit?

Is there none? Civil war? Were are we then?

[sweetheart]

28. There are no rules in this civil war.

It appears we call the "rules" an election, if they hold one. If it
matters given the level of brainwashing involved, and the lack of
democratic processes.

There are no rules. The constitution and the bill of rights have
been abrogated. Make your own law. George bush is a great friend
to destructive anarchy, as he himself is that anarchist. Use his
loophole in this civil war... no holds barred.

There is no law. There is no constitution. There is no legitimate
government in the US empire. The only rule in war is to win.

There are no limits.

[The Lone Liberal]

33. So you are willing to go the mile?

Didn't know we were there?

[sweetheart]

40. The TV can be misleading

towards viewing this all with compacency... heck, nothing's really
changed except the price of gas. The republicans are beyond the law.

Have you not seen "unprecedented". There was no election in 2000.
It was for show. That was no-rules anarchy. You did not know we
were at that point?

My view is to get away from them and to target them ideologically,
which, is exactly what i'm doing.

The yen is at a 4 year high against the dollar and rising. Expect
it to reach 100 soon. Expect 90 after that. The dollar collapse
is no holds barred macroeconomic destruction of bad government.

Violence is for kids. The real destruction of the bush/republican/
military-empire comes in much more substantive messages.

[The Lone Liberal]

43. We should have been in the streets

then and for the last 3 years. Pictures of dead bodies in American streets might do what everyone seems to desire.

[Sugarbleus]

7. Hallelujah.......thanks for stating that...I've been getting flack in

here all day for expressing my anger and disgust over this recent attack. I did give a knee jerk reaction at first; tried to "repent" but I think they think I'm the enemy now. Geeez.

Slaughter in Fallujah was just too over the top for me in my "fragile" state waiting for bush to be ousted..lol

I'm sorry for the families of these dead. This is going to be unspeakably difficult for them. Peace

[DrWeird]

18. You called for the mass murder of Iraqi civilians.

Maybe I missed it, but you seem more concerned about dead American civilians then dead Iraqi civilians.

And if that's the case you deserved all the flak you got.

[Sugarbleus]

38. Your name suits you.....

I admit I did gave a reactionary reply at first. I am human. I was upset. I don't think the killing of anyone is okay unless one is on a dark street being accosted. I do think a response to this event is in order though. Suit yourself as to what it should be.

One thing that I've noticed in DU is that a huge percentage of the discussions in here are about this war in Iraq. It is illegal. It was/is wrong. BUT.........I think you and the rest who constantly talk about Iraq and jump for joy over our losses are EQUALLY as bloodthirsty as the sociopath who started with war in the first place. It's an obsession now. A blood sport..Watching from the side lines as we get news on how many soldiers or Iraqi died any given day.

You want to be there don't ya? You want to fight too. You've picked your enemy and you want to SEE their blood, hell, you'd like to DRAW their blood.
What makes you different from the Bushistas?

I post in here occassionally about social issues and things that are being stripped from us daily.......I get a rare response on those. It's all about WAR and dethroning bush.

I think you should rethink your own motivations behind this, perhaps unrealized, lust for a fight and retaliation. Are you also a proponent of the Death Penalty then?

[WilliamPitt]

8. Death in a political war is a political event

Don't hate the players, hate the game. It is what it is.

[The Lone Liberal]

17. The Game!

How far are we in the game? Without the obligatory sensitivity the game can become rough indeed.

[agincourt]

9. on one hand I agree,

but RWingers have been politicizing death for years.

[The Lone Liberal]

15. I thought we were better than that?

To emulate your enemy is dangerous, because you risk becoming them.

[H2O Man]

12. "When it is relevant,

truth has to be uttered, however unpleasant it may be." - Gandhi
I do not think people on here are disrespectful when discussing the horror of the war. (There was on thread earlier, since taken off, that was. Didn't go over well. Folks here can smell a agent-provocateur, and confronted him fast! I was proud.)
People are dying. Iraqi's and Americans. All of them are children of God. I believe that both Gandhi and King would demand that the vicious nature of this war be brought to the Americans' consciousness, so that it sparks their conscience. Our country started the war, hence it has the responsibility to stop it. That can only occure when our people are fully aware of the true nature of the bush administration's savagery.

[LeftwingPitbull]

14. You are right.

We should round up the killers and jail them. Iraq is turning into a quagmire. The families are in our prayers.

[FlemingsGhost]

19. The "killers" are dead.

They were burned, beaten and dragged through the streets.

[The Lone Liberal]

21. You knew the people killed and dragged through the streets.

Please give us their background. I would guess you are talking through your ass.

[FlemingsGhost]

25. I know a hired gun when I see it:

http://blackwatersecurity.com/

[The Lone Liberal]

29. I haven't read they were Blackwater Security

Could you provide a link.

[FlemingsGhost]

31. Sure.

Contractors worked for security company U.S. officials, who spoke with NBC News on condition of anonymity, said that all four contractors were Americans who worked for Blackwater USA of Moyock, N.C. The company later issued a statement confirming that, but said their identities had not yet been established.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4551230/

Compliments of my ass...

[The Lone Liberal]

34. Your ass is to be complimented

and mine is a bit "red", that does change it a bit.

[FlemingsGhost]

16. All that transpires in Iraq is political fodder.

It became so, the moment our "leaders" thumbed their noses at the world (and lied through their teeth) in order to further their deluded **political ** agenda.

[Mari333]

20. It should be shown because why should I and my husband be

the only people with a kid over there who have to buckle over when we see those images on the web? that could be OUR kid tomorrow, or tonight. Michael is in Baghdad. If showing those images outrages the US public and wakes them up, they save MY son and other kids over there if the US public wakes UP from its stupour.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com
THE IMAGES OF THE TRUTH IS WHAT STOPPED VIETNAM

dont be like Babs Bush who "doesnt want to bother her beautiful mind with that"

[The Lone Liberal]

24. Believe me, Bring Them Home is my cry.

Why stop at displying charred bodies. Let's take up the gun? There is a limit to how uncivilized we become.

[Mari333]

45. Because the truth needs to be seen by the US public

they are asleep. This war has been sanitized. Its time the truth came out. If ONE soldier is saved by outraging the US public with images, then it has to happen.
a picture says a thousand words.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[The Lone Liberal]

48. Guts are gray when strung over concertina wire.

They don't look real, unless you happen to have know to whom the guts belonged.

[Mari333]

60. The US public needs to see the truth

When my husband was killed by an explosion that completely blew up every major organ in his body I went in and saw him dead. Thats the only way I could come to terms with the truth. If the US people see the truth, it hurts, but wont harm.
Or, the truth shall set you free.
and if it outrages people, so be it. Then they might wake up and save MY kid and other peoples kids from the same fate.

[MrMonk]

23. Oh, dilemma!

To be sensitively silent about the horror of these deaths, or to be thought insensitive and political for reminding the world how and why they came to die so horribly, so far from home?

[noiretextatique]

26. is this a commentary on other threads?

i'm completely perplexed by your statement.

[Zynx]

27. We have to show them as a marker of Bush's blunders.

We can't remain silent as people die from Bush's lies. I don't want to exploit deaths either, but it should be known to everyone just how costly Bush's lies are. 600 of our soldiers are dead. That is the same as three and a half Oklahoma City bombings or nearly three Beiruts. Another 3,500 or more have been wounded, some will never fully recover. How can we not blame Bush for this? This is his policy and these deaths are on his hands and he has to explain to us why he is doing this.

[The Lone Liberal]

30. I don't hold the position that the deaths cannot be talked about

I hold the position that we don't need pictures of the charred bodies being dragged through the streets or to rejoice because they were.

[not systems]

37. What about Udays autopsy?

Did the whole world need that either?

The Bush crew said yes to calm things down in Iraq they were wrong.

The mutilation of our enemy has been politicized and used as
propaganda by our own government and transmitted around the world.

Now when the shoe is on the other foot we claim the moral high ground?

I nearly puked when I saw that charred corpse of a fellow American
but we must ask for who and what has it come to this.

The answer is Bush and his war are the greatest source of misery
and instability in the world today we must not turn away from our
guilt in creating this hell on earth.

Us out of Iraq now.

[The Lone Liberal]

42. Added to the criminal behavior of Bush.

and Rove.

[Karenina]

50. YES YOU DO!

Unless you're of Bab's stripe and can't trouble you "beautiful mind" about such things. Bodies being burned and dragged through the streets is a DIRECT RESULT of American "foreign policy." It is a simple message: YOU are KILLING US WHOLESALE and WE WILL FIGHT BACK!

WHO exactly is "rejoicing?" Those AWFUL, ANIMAL-LIKE, BROWN PEOPLE (actually some of "them" may be lighter-skinned than you) who have NO RESPECT for human life? SURELY YOU JEST. Are you talking about "those" who have had their doors kicked in, teenies and Opas dragged out, who have been SICK with worry and grief as they tend to their children whose LIMBS have been blown off while receiving NO NEWS of their "disappeared," or whose family members have been killed cuz the Amis haven't enough sense to learn the words "PLEASE STOP HERE" in Arabic? BOMB 'EM BACK TO THE STONE AGE while YOUR *gubmint slips into the cigar smoke-filled back rooms and steals their present AND future. Never mind. Go to the pump and complain about the price of gas. Why should YOU pay so much?

Hey, LL... this rant is not really personally directed at you. I just get SO FRUSTRATED sometimes that y'all can't see the obvious.

[The Lone Liberal]

56. I do see the obvious.

I also think that if we really want to stop this, it is going to take more than pictures. Are you ready to go the mile? Or, do you want to stop at showing pictures of charred bodies? Interesting, talk or action is the choice. Voyeur or player?

[Karenina]

65. Heh?

:freak: Kannst Du bitte deine Frage weiter erklaren? Do I want to stop
at showing pictures of charred bodies or am I ready to go the mile? Entweder, oder? Heh?

[The Lone Liberal]

66. Möchten Sie die Regierung herunternehmen?

ala Bader-Meinhof? Kidding of course.

[Karenina]

71. You say you're kidding

as you fart. Whatever. :shrug:

[Zynx]

53. I never said we should rejoice. That would be sick and wrong.

We should be saddened and send Bush packing for making it happen.

[mhr]

35. So Where Were You Last Spring When Innocent Iraqis Died

They were mothers, daughters, sons, and fathers as well.

I guess only dead Americans matter to you.

And you have the audacity to call us callous.

You need a reality check, and soon!

[The Lone Liberal]

39. I was out doing what I could to keep the war from happening.

Since you dont know me, you can .... me. And I will call em like I see em every damn day of my life. So **** off.

[mhr]

57. Dead Americans, Dead Iraqis, Dead Is Dead

Your post implies you like dead Iraqis better.

I personally don't like anything dead!

Why all this angst when we killed so many Iraqis last spring?

Many of those where innocent civilians.

Seems that our innocent civilians are not that different.

Or were all those dead Iraqis payback for 9/11?

You still seem conflicted.

[The Lone Liberal]

59. I am not conflicted I dont want to see anyone dead.

I have seen to many dead. It aint nice.

[greatauntoftriplets]

36. The whole damned thing is a tragedy of major proportion.

And they won't let us see the flag-draped coffins of the (what is it now? 600?) American soldiers killed for this bloody crusade.

[The Lone Liberal]

41. That is the picture we need to see.

We need to see the coffins coming back into Dover.

[greatauntoftriplets]

44. And we won't see them.

That doesn't "look" good.

Nor will we see this.

www.iraqbodycount.com

[Mari333]

51. In Vietnam what stopped the war and changed US opinion

was seeing the fleeing and napalmed civilians and seeing the soldiers wounded and dead in the field.
Its time.

[The Lone Liberal]

52. What stopped the war, was bodies in American cities.

and American cities burning down.

[greatauntoftriplets]

54. And many more were killed in Vietnam before the protests started.

It was on television every night in sickening gory detail. The Chicago Tribune had a lengthy death count every day until Tricky Dicky stopped it because it created too much opposition.

[Malva Zebrina]

47. Nothing will stop this

no polite discourse, no squemish objections to the reality of these photographs. Nothing will stop this because we the people

are powerless

We , in spite of all out writing, calling , signing petitions, objecting on talk forems , our anger

and even our own party--

It is all impotent in the face of the super rich, powerful Bush machine even though we know Bush is a complete and total ignorant idiot.

The only thing that is going to make any difference is a complete revolution and I doubt that fat , complacent America , can even do that. The Bush machine will just throw more sugar coated cakes at them and they can get fatter and fatter, while subscribing to every new found trendy diet that will make them slim. We have a population that is spoiled, fat and shallow.

We are victims of corporatism and captitalism gone amok leaving the common man in it's wake. We have lost our soul

[The Lone Liberal]

49. Bingo, we have a winner.

You said it just right.

[FlemingsGhost]

63. Winner? Hardly.

Why are you here? If all Marianne writes is true, why are you still fighting the NeoCon Matrix? All hope is gone.

You are afraid. "Get over it."

[Malva Zebrina]

67. there comes a time when reality needs to be considered

It is one thing to assume a cheerleader mentality eventhough the team is losing by one hundred points and another thing to face the reality or the elephant in the living room, OK?

It is just as unreal to insist that ethereal forces will rid us of the likes of Bush as it is to assume the total opposite

We must face it--there is a possibility that Bush will win.

That he will win and how he will, is all speculation at this point, but worthy of being considered. OK?

But, we should not toss aside the notion, that it is possible he will win, OK?

Let us just be realists about these things and analyse the issues with realism as a guiding light, instead of blind, wild, cheeleading, as a show of absolute support for our candidate--OK?

No one is saying all hope is gone, however a simple review of how it is we are where we are now will show, that the power over our lives is indeed inthe hands of capitalism and corporatism gone amok and leading to fascism.

[FlemingsGhost]

61. Oh... woe is me! We are pathetic, helpless nothings.

Give up, Marianne. Curl up in ball, and give up.
Be afraid. Shiver and shake, stare into the light like a deer would headlights. All is lost. Give up!

What a load of tepid, runny shit.

:puke:

[DaveSZ]

62. We should use

Bush's WMD joke in attack ads.

Or is that crossing the line?

Like I've said, I have a cousin over there and I wouldn't find that objectionable.

I find Bush joking about dead American soldiers objectionable.

[The Lone Liberal]

64. Hey lighten up, everything she or he said is true.

You want pictures and hope it will stop. Marianne says it will not stop. I happen to think she is closer to the truth. Flashing some dead bodies on the screen ain't going to do anything but put the family off the feed.

Marianne didn't say to give up. But, you didn't say take to the streets, build the barricades and hang the SOBs. You just wanted some crispy critters flashed on the evening news.

I am no better, if I were really wanting to do something about the situation I would not be doing mental masturbation here in DU. I would be deeper down than a weatherman.

[Malva Zebrina]

68. sorry it seems to have hit a sore spot with you

fact is, we have been relatively powerless for the past three years. Saying so might pose a threat to you. To me, never one to be a sheeple, blind cheeleader who loves to attend rallies for their emotional craziness in supporting a candidate without considering the actual reality, prefers to see things in a more realistic view.

I admit I could never be a politician. I simply cannot gloss over truth.

[FlemingsGhost]

70. You are afraid

"Power" comes from within. To say you are powerless, means you have willingly given over that part of yourself to someone else. Self-defeatism at its worse.

Say it long enough and that is just what you will believe yourself to be: powerless.

Sore spot? You bet. You are not powerless.

[Malva Zebrina]

72. err--well, that can also be considered a delusion

an attempt to gloss over a fear by assuming a posture of unreal bravado and denial.

There is a very thin line in ability to discern reality and assuming reactive, protective rationalisations in an attempt to deny reality.


that one is aware of the reality does not necessarily mean they have lost all hope for thie survival

there is not much hope in the system we now have, that is very much close to the truth right now.

There may be other ways to deal with it, but as the system is now, even the most optimistic of starry eyed unrealists has to admit that we have been jerked around for three and more years because of power and money almost incomprehensible in it's scope to the common man and there certainly is the possiblity that we can continue on in that manner for four more years.

[FlemingsGhost]

73. Fair enough, you're powerless.

Good luck.

[Malva Zebrina]

74. probably lasted longer than you so far, in all my powerlessness

LOL :hi:

[Posinegativeman]

69. Yep

And it is disgusting.

[BlueStateGirl]

75. Why not? this whole damn country turned the Spainish bombings

into a political event. Everyone from our leaders, to the media, to some posters here on DU.

WHo does this benefit? How will it effect Bush? Did the CIA do this? The Spainards are cowards. And on and on and
on.

I was apalled at the lack of empathy this country showed for the vitims of that attack.