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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:14 PM
Original message
Was Poppy using CIA to undermine Clinton in the 90's?
Some time ago I read a piece about Poppy receiving "regular" reports from the CIA all through the 90's. Call me a bit suspicious, but with all that I've seen I think that the BFEE would use whatever means neccessary to hurt Clinton. The odd mistakes Clinton made in going after OBL and Al Qaeda may be because he was fed bogus intelligence.


Now that Bush Junior occupies the White House, Bush Senior receives frequent CIA briefings (his prerogative as a former president). "In July 2001, Bush personally contacted Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah to ‘clarify’ his son's Middle East policies. Also during the summer of 2001, Bush forwarded his son a North Korea policy plan penned by ‘Asia expert’ and former ambassador to Korea, Donald Gregg. Gregg is a 31-year CIA veteran and the elder Bush's former national security adviser whose expertise involved participation in the Vietnam-era Phoenix Program (death squads), Air America heroin smuggling, ‘pacification’ efforts in El Salvador and Guatemala, the ‘October Surprise,’ and the Iran-Contra operation (for which Gregg received a Bush pardon in 1992)." (20)

(19) Steve Lohr, "Gerstner to Be Chairman of Carlyle Group," New York Times, November 22, 2002
Also: http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm

and...

http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/05-government/I-foreign-policy/2003/05I-03-06-03-bush-saudi-connection.html


It does suggest that Gregg and Poppy were working together prior to Bushboys taking the throne. What the felonious Gregg was doing in the capacity of an "Asian Expert" also would be nice to know. I assume it wasn't in an official capacity based on his, uh, er... resume. This could be a lead to a much broader involvement of Poppy and the BFEE in "unofficial" intelligence work. IMO this is very important to understand how Clinton's intel may have been impacted by Poppy's involvement. I assume that the BFEE was not interested in seeing Clinton succeed in his foreign policy, IMO the BFEE would have done anything they could to give him a black eye, including compromising national security.

This is a potentially huge issue IMHO. Did Poppy undermine Clinton's intelligence on terrorism during the 90's with his own "informal" intelligence network? Clinton missed the targets in the Sudan and, if I remember correctly, accidently hit a hospital.

But what is potentially explosive is what kind of info Clinton was getting on Iraq? Throughout the 90's we have some real crazy intel on Iraqi WMD's, but it seems clear that this was all BS. Who kept this bogus info alive? Why?


Sometimes I think that Richard Clarke was not fighting Al Qaeda, but, unknown, or maybe known but unsaid, he was up against the CIA!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. My Personal Tinfoil Theory
for which I've not a shred of evidence:

Bush operatives in CIA alerted binLaden to Clinton's attempt to assinate him (Osama). That's how Osama narrowly escaped.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It wouldn't surprise me in the least
And they also need to get to the bottom of who the crooks are/were in the FBI at the top...Freeh was one and we sure as hell don't see him testifying do we?
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ignatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. I agree and to take it one step further,also w/o a shred of
evidence, I think Poppy's branch of the CIA was involved in the coup in Pakistan that put Musharaf in power. The very week Pakistan was to hand over Bin Laden, the coup put's Musharaf in power and the deal is off.

Odd, yet another peculiar coincidence in the Osama legend.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. from Pak Intell, not CIA
He was warned by liason in Pakistani intelligence, NOT from the CIA, who very much wanted him dead, ESPECIALLY after the Embassy Bombing.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ah, yes. Remember the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy
during the Kosovo action? The CIA provided "outdated" maps...:tinfoilhat:
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. No, State Dept did..
The State Department provided outdated maps, which the military and the CIA used.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. You're talking major BFEE turd there.
THIS is the crux of the Secret Team Prouty talked about. Gregg is reported to be one of the guys who helped "jimmy" the 1980 election by informing Poppy when the Carter launched the ill-fated hostage desert rescue. He also is reported to have escorted Casey and Poppy to Paris to deal with the Iranian mullahs holding the American hostages. Then there are the allegations Gregg, from his post on the NSC staff, helped steal Carter's Debate Briefing Book. He seems to have gone on to bigger and better things, like helping arm the contras and import tons of cocaine in the process. Truly he is a fine turd.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. That is "Operation Desert Claw"!!!
Oh, Boy. Now we had quite a discussion here about that. It sure would be interesting to find out where Gregg's whereabouts were at the Chinese embassy bombing, 9/11, etc.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The link.
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 08:09 PM by 9215
Carter's Operation Desert Claw sabotaged:
http://old.valleyadvocate.com/25th/archives/bushs_watergate.html

........The mission proved disastrous. At least two American helicopters crashed into each other in the desert long before they made it anywhere near Teheran. Eight Marines were killed. Carter looked ineffectual and frustration with the hostage crisis escalated.
Unfortunately, the operatives in charge of Desert Claw may not have been loyal to Carter -- or to the U.S. Carter held deeply alienated a broad range of CIA operatives by trying to clean up the Agency when he first came to power. Admiral Stansfield Turner, the tough but honest Navy man Carter put in charge at the CIA fired some 600 "spooks" soon after taking command. Many were deeply loyal to former Director George Bush and to the "Old Boy" network that serves as the Agency's true infrastructure.
That loyalty may have carried over to sabotage of Operation Eagle Claw. For the man who served as chief mission planner was none other than Richard Secord, who later surfaced as a major kingpin in the shady arms dealings between the Reagan White House and the contras of Nicaragua. A top staffer at a key base in Eagle Claw's catastrophic helicopter support operation was none other than the legendary Colonel Oliver North. Working closely with him as a logistical planner was Albert Hakkim, who later sat by Secord's side at the Congressional Iran-contra hearings and wept of his love for Oliver North.
As historian Donald Fried has put it "Precisely the people in the intelligence community commissioned to develop some kind of rescue for the hostages were those elements of covert action close to William Casey and hostile to Carter."
Casey, of course, later became Reagan's CIA chief. But higher up in the chain at the time of the failed rescue mission was Donald Gregg, a member of Carter's National Security Council who later surfaced as s high-level Bush operative. Gregg's close personal ties to Bush became a serious issue in light of his extensive dealings with key contra figures tied both to the Iran-contra scandal and illegal drug shipments coming from Central America. Gregg is now Bush's ambassador to South Korea...........


DU discussion on Operation Desert Claw

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=629531
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. The guy doesn't seem to have many progressive friends.
There's Something About Omar:
Truth, Lies, and The Legend of 9/11


by Chaim Kupferberg

www.globalresearch.ca , 21 October 2003
The URL of this article is:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP310A.html

EXCERPT...

There was a curious parallel to the manner by which various Israelis tended to be "pulled over" in the Israeli/9/11 Counter-Legend as opposed to the manner by which various al-Qaida operatives tended to incriminate themselves through those fortuitous cell phone and email "intercepts" in the al-Qaida/9/11 Legend. On June 23, 2002, ABC News picked up the earlier story of five "suspicious" Israelis celebrating on the roof of their van in the wake of September 11. When the police had pulled them over and searched the contents of the van, sure enough, they found...box cutters. And just as sure enough, this story also "suspiciously" vanished without a follow-up. It is also a curious fact that former CIA counterterror chief/ABC News consultant Vincent Cannistraro lent his own spin on that report. As I had pointed out in The Propaganda Preparation For 9/11, and as I will show further in this article, Cannistraro has "spun" a great deal of information on the 9/11 Legend.

While the spy ring story has been neglected by much of the mainstream media, it nevertheless remains in the background, ready to be "mainstreamed" if or when the "official" 9/11 Legend begins to show cracks (or if the resident Israeli government proves to be troublesome). As I have pointed out, much of the first-hand revelations of Israeli penetrations have come not from alternative sources, but from well-established, "credible" conservative sources highly placed within the intelligence apparatus. While Daniel Pipes (CFR member and former Defense Department employee) made a disingenuous attempt at discrediting the spy ring story, the actual DEA report that was acquired by Dasquie's Intelligence Online was confirmed as authentic on February 25, 2002 by Will Glaspy of the DEA's public affairs bureau. Moreover, according to a May 5, 2002 report in Le Monde, Cameron's four-part Fox broadcast was shown and cleared with the CIA, FBI, and NSA before its airing. Clearly, somebody high up wants this out in the ether.

Yet it is a curious fact that some of this information comes from sources which are traditionally known to be friendly to Israeli interests. For instance, J. Michael Waller, who wrote the Insight piece with Paul M. Rodriguez, is a member of the right wing, pro-Israel Center For Security Policy, which, according to the Center's own site, includes an "extraordinary number of members of the Center's National Security Advisory Council" in the top echelons of the Bush Administration. Waller, incidentally, also wrote an Insight piece entitled "Preparing For The Next Pearl Harbor Attack" - just a few months before 9/11 - in which he described the plan for a Homeland Security Agency, as recommended by the Hart-Rudman Commission report (yes, they had the "homeland security" blueprint in place several months before 9/11).

As for Waller's associate, Paul M. Rodriguez - the managing editor of Insight - has had a history of printing incriminating items that don't quite circulate yet get the point across all the same. One particularly creepy example concerns an Insight piece that Rodriguez wrote in 1989, reporting on a pedophile ring in the nation's capital, linking one of its participants to Donald Gregg, a senior aide to President Bush. Since then, Gregg has served as Ambassador to South Korea and as head of the Korea Society. This might have something to do with the fact that the Moonies, owner of Insight, have been rumored to be a front for the South Korean CIA. Incidentally, since President George H.W. Bush has left office, he has put in a considerable number of appearances at Moonie functions.

CONTINUED...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP310A.html
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. GREGG IS MICHAEL JACKSON'S BOYFRIEND!!
((((Just kidding)))).

But you never know. Jackson was filmed with his arm flopped around a Saudi elite in the film on Carlyle: "Exposed". Maybe Jackson was a child victim of these elites, but that's just a guess. He has had a long association with them and made videos.

That front page article by the Moonie Times on the pedophile ring out of the White House is some bizarre stuff. The fact that it got absolutely no attention from the public or Press is equally strange. Maybe it was designed to reduce the "Bush bias" of the Times, while making the claims so "outrageous" that noone would follow-up, or that when this story was released that Poppy had the Press in a vice grip.

It is worthy to note that Cannistraro is now coming out against Dubya' treason . He was part of a panel of intel people at a Congressional hearing on Wilson/Plame. Larry Johnson was also there.

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. Be wary of claims of "pedophile rings"
The Satanic Panic was complete and utter bullshit, and this report seems to be dated at roughly the same time.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Have you seen the Franklin coverup?
Google it.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Bullshit
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963215809/qid%3D953048864/sr%3D1-1/102-3154818-2808135

"Child sex ring" + "Satanism" = Bullshit. Every time I've ever seen it. You want to say this one, one out of a crapflood, is real? Prove it.

Here's documentation of the whole phenomenon, from an unbiased source.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sra.htm
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Be careful before you say bullshit.
For a second time, pedophile is nominated for national Republican award
</cgi-bin/bi/video/G2redirect.pl?title=4882514> Click t o watch video </cgi-bin/bi/video/G2redirect.pl?title=4882514>
07/16/2003
By Craig Civale, 13News
The National Republican Congressional Committee has honored a Suffolk man as one of the top businessmen in the country.
Suffolk police photo Mark Grethen of Suffolk is in prison for sex crimes against children. But Mark Grethen couldn't accept the award in person. He's in prison - behind bars for sex crimes against children.
But that shouldn’t have been news to the NRCC. It nominated him in 2002 as one of the top 500 “Republicans of the Year.” A month later, it rescinded the honor after learning of his criminal past.
Now, the NRCC's had to take back the honor again.
Grethen is serving a 20-year sentence at Powhatan Correctional Center. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced in 2001 to forcible sodomy, aggravated sexual battery and indecent liberties with a child in 1997.
Charlie Hatfield, 13News The Suffolk Circuit Court Web site has a full page of charges brought against Mark Grethen. There were more charges, but many weren't pursued because of his guilty plea.
The G.O.P. Business Advisory Committee calls it a software glitch. A spokesman told 13News someone forgot to take Grethen's name out of the computer.
"Clearly it was a mistake. He should not have been given an award," said Carl Forti, an NRCC spokesman.





"Conspiracy of Silence".

Here are the four parts of Franklin coverup from Conspiracy of Silence thread
http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/c... <http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/conspiracyofsilence2_chunk_1.wmv>

http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/c... <http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/conspiracyofsilence2_chunk_2.wmv>

http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/c... <http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/conspiracyofsilence2_chunk_2.wmv>

http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/c... <http://www.thelawparty.org/UnlockedMedia/MediaPlayer/FranklinCoverup/conspiracyofsilence2_chunk_4.wmv>




Also ask yourself what BCCI founder Abedi meant when he said that he could get a boy or a girl for his clients anytime?

Or, what is happening to all these children being kidnapped?


Belgian pedo rign nabbed: Google: Belgium+pedophile+scandal. Need to keep a list of key figures and cross correlate with BCCI etc. These kids that were victims were being abused by someone......Abedi said he could get girls and boys from anywhere.
http://www.iht.com/IHT/BJ/98/bj022098.html




Blair defending paedophile ring http://www.propagandamatrix.com/blair_protection.html
The controversy is certain to topple the Blair government, which has already issued a D-Notice to gag the press from revealing the names of known paedophiles within the British executive, including at least two senior ministers; and the case highlights the government's antipathy toward the Sunday Herald and its brand of independent journalism that has, among other things, exposed the role played by the domestic security agency, MI5, in helping the IRA to carry out terrorist atrocities.



Project Truth also the title of the Canadian investigation finds "pillars of the community",,,,,,,,then stalls.http://goods.perfectvision.ca/ViewLetter.cfm?REF=125
Coverup in Cornwall
Dateline: Tuesday, January 09, 2001
This is to inform you of an ongoing story entitled "Project Truth" by the Ontario Provincial Police, investigating allegations of sexual abuse of boys over many years by Roman Catholic clergy and others in Cornwall, Ontario. Several charges have been laid, however, it appears that progress has been slow. There are fears of a cover-up at high levels. MPP Gary Guzzo (PC) has written several letters to Premier Harris and to the Attorney General of Ontario pointedly questioning the apparent lack of progress.
Laying their charges?????...uh....er

I saw a news item on this topic on the 11 pm CTV News (CJOH, Ch. 13, Ottawa) on either Thursday or Friday, Jan 4 or 5, which alerted me to the Project Truth Web site listed below. I have no personal connection with this story, however, I thought that it might make an interesting one for Straight Goods to pursue, particularly in light of the following information copied from that site:
"With the exception of the Ottawa Sun, Ontario's print media has been strangely silent on Guzzo's courageous and bold interjections. Not a boo from the Ottawa Citizen, the Globe and Mail, the Toronto Star or The National Post. Strange indeed from a media which delights in political intrigue.
Since Gary Guzzo's interjection into the Cornwall affair became public, Project Truth has spread the word that Cornwall is caught in the grips of McCarthyism..."
Extracts from Project Truth 2:
Is It Possible?
"A pedophile clan" involving clergy and other prominent "pillars of the community" in Cornwall, Ontario, CANADA.
"Listen To Me"
In February of 1992, a former altar boy, David Silmser, contacted officials in the Diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall asking for an apology. David claimed a local parish priest, Father Charles MacDonald, had sexually abused him. The apology was not forthcoming.
In December of 1992, this same David turned to the Cornwall Police Services for help. David disclosed his claims.
Denial or Cover-Up?
Since early in this story there was talk of covert meetings between prominent citizens and clergy, regarding "cover-up" of the allegations. Many citizens believe that the investigation by the Solicitor General of Ontario and by the Ontario Provincial Police, referred to as "Project Truth," initiated in 1997, is more of an effort to bury the "truth" as opposed to shedding light on the truth. Earlier investigations (more than one since 1992) exonerated police of any wrongdoing and concluded that no charges were warranted.
Allegations of a "pedophile clan" or a.k.a. "the clan" first came to light-years ago when Constable Perry Dunlop asserted that such a clan was operating within the Church and within the City of Cornwall and surrounding area. Skeptics laughed and rebuttals from community leaders denounced the allegations, and chastised the community for participating in such rumour. To date, there are challenges that "Project Truth" investigator's have been dragging their feet for one reason or another. (Do not forget, David first approached the diocese in 1992 and then was interviewed by police only in 1993.)
I guess it is up to each of us to determine how we feel about it. In the order of 940 people have been interviewed in the Ontario Provincial Police investigation, more than 70 charges have been laid against more than twelve men for sex offences against at least 25 victims. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has conducted its own investigative report into the allegations and has interviewed people claiming to have direct evidence against "The Clan;" people that were never interviewed by the police (1999). At least one of the individuals interviewed by the C.B.C. claims that he is hiding-out in the United States because he fears that he will be murdered; "I know too much," he says, " if they charge me I'll bring everyone down."
Charged to date are Roman Catholic Priests, two Lawyers with high profiles in the Roman Catholic Church.
1-Jacques Leduc will face trial after a preliminary hearing determined enough evidence exists to warrant a trial and;
2-the other, Malcolm MacDonald (see obituary in Cornwall Standard-Freeholder dated December 28, 1999) committed suicide in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Both of the aforementioned had directly designed the David/Roman Catholic Diocese "hush-money," settlement, mentioned on page one. Charged also has been a Brother who had previously taught in a local Roman Catholic school, a doctor, several local businessmen and a local coroner, (the coroner passed away in his home in December 1999 while awaiting his trial date to be rendered the same week of his death.)
On 18 September 1998, Gary Guzzo (a sitting member of Ontario's Progressive Conservative Provincial Government) sent a letter marked "Private and Confidential" to Premier Mike Harris. Therein, Guzzo advises the Premier that contrary to what he (Harris) might be told by his Attorney General and Solicitor General, the Project Truth investigation is not progressing as it should and has not followed up on "volumes of information" turned over to the Attorney General and Solicitor General by Perry Dunlop.
Mr. Guzzo again put pen to paper on 23 February 1999, this time telling the Premier that since his previous communication he (Guzzo) has had the occasion to spend ten days in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. He writes:
"I want you to understand how embarrassing it is for me to attempt to answer the pointed questions of a retired police officer with regard to this issue..."
There is much additional information on the site, including letters to editors, archives, pictures and contacts.
Wayne Paulson Ottawa, Ontario
Contact:
E-mail: waynerp@sympatico.ca <mailto:waynerp@sympatico.ca>
URL 1: http://www.projecttruth2.com <http://www.projecttruth2.com>
URL 2: http://members.aol.com/smartnews/Sample-Issue-35.htm <http://members.aol.com/smartnews/Sample-Issue-35.htm>


For above info Google: Dunlop+"Project Truth"

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Still bullshit.
Grethen is serving a 20-year sentence at Powhatan Correctional Center. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced in 2001 to forcible sodomy, aggravated sexual battery and indecent liberties with a child in 1997.

Sorry, but that's meaningless. Entirely too many innocent people have been imprisoned for abuse that didn't happen. I'm not going to abandon my skepticism, just because he's a Republican.

Blair defending paedophile ring http://www.propagandamatrix.com/blair_protection.html
The controversy is certain to topple the Blair government, which has already issued a D-Notice to gag the press from revealing the names of known paedophiles within the British executive, including at least two senior ministers; and the case highlights the government's antipathy toward the Sunday Herald and its brand of independent journalism that has, among other things, exposed the role played by the domestic security agency, MI5, in helping the IRA to carry out terrorist atrocities.


This site appears to be full of shit... "Aaah! Skull and Bones! MIHOP! MIHOP!"

To wit, there has never been a proven case of a real Satanic child abuse ring. Most of the accusations come from psuedo-scientific "psychologists" that implant memories in their patients, thus not only destroying the community, but causing mental anguish to patients who earnestly believe that these things happened.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. What about all the other stuff I cited?
Edited on Mon Mar-29-04 11:00 AM by 9215
All just Bullshit? :eyes:

I note you narrowed the focus to Satanic Ritual abuse. :eyes:

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. That seemed to be what the book was about
And that was what I was talking about.

As for the other stuff, I haven't had the chance to look at it vigorously enough to determine its veracity - hence, I chose not to speak on it.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. But why did you isolate Satanic stuff?
there is obviously alot more to it than the extreme version you suggest.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. Because I know that's crap
I guess the author just got carried away when he titled his book that?

Looking at the introduction, it appears I am correct... the author uses statistics to attempt to claim that there is an outbreak of child abuse - neglecting the fact that incompentant, neglegent psuedo-scientists implanted innocent children with false memories.

By reciting this unmitigated bullshit, you are spitting on the real victims - the adults who were wrongly prosecuted and sent to jail, a la the Salem Witch Trials.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. You need sources for your counterclaims.
"negligent pseudo-scientists implanted....." . Uh, dude, you need to back that up.


PS. I knew someone who was murdered by Satanic Cult in 1969 or so. She lived in my neighborhood.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Sources
I'm sorry to hear about the woman that you knew. Would you mind either PMing or posting more details, so I can look into that particular instance? There are several groups that would be very interested in a substantiated claim of Satanic Ritual Abuse.

Now then, here's my argument: The book cites, in the part that is available to me, the McMartin case - a case which demonstrates how SRA is generally an illusion caused by mass hysteria - as a VALID example of real abuse. If the rest of the book has credibility equal to the introduction, it has no credibility at all.

I've also included psychological research on implanted memories, and some stories of victims of these implanted memories. I know it's a lot of reading, but it's well worth it.

---------------------------------------------------------------

From the introduction to the book:

In a May 25, 1990 interview with Executive Intelligence Review, Gunderson said, "In the McMartin case, for example, before any criminal charges were filed against anyone, 460 complaints were filed with the Manhattan Beach police. Are we to believe that 460 families fed their children the same story of ritualistic sexual abuse, animal sacrifices, etc.?"

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_mcmar.htm

The McMartin preschool was located in Manhattan Beach, CA. It was owned by Peggy McMartin Buckey and her mother, Virginia McMartin. Ms. Buckey's son, Ray, was a part-time school-aide at the school. On 1983-AUG-12, Judy Johnson complained to the police that her son had been molested by Ray at the school. Ms. Johnson was an alcoholic and had been diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia. She also claimed that her son had been molested and abused by her estranged husband. The latter claim appears to have been largely ignored by the prosecution; information about it was withheld from the defense attorneys. Although there was no physical evidence or confirmation from other children at the school, Ray was arrested on SEP-7. Because of lack of evidence, the DA decided to not prosecute.

The Chief of the Manhattan Beach Police then created a local panic by circulating a "strictly confidential" letter to about 200 parents of present or past McMartin students. The letter specified that Ray may have forced the children to engage in oral sex, fondling of genitals, buttocks or chest area and sodomy". The parents were urged to question their children, seeking confirmation. The community and surrounding area was panicked by an irresponsible media. A local TV station was first with the news; they reported that the preschool might be linked to child pornography rings and various sex industries in nearby Los Angeles.

In 2002-MAY, the Morning Call newspaper of Allentown, PA interviewed Paul Eberle. He is co-author of "The Abuse of Innocence," a book about the McMartin case. He said: "Almost all of the accusing families were practicing Catholics who attended the American Martyrs Church...What the Catholic Church did was to open its doors to all these witch-hunters." Eberle said rallies linked to the church demanded that "Ray must die!" He continued: "The Church was marching with the accusers, and anybody with an ounce of brains knew these people were innocent. The church was very accommodating with the lynch mob." 4

Hundreds of children were later interviewed by the Children's Institute International (CII). By Spring of 1984, 360 kids had been diagnosed as having been abused. Medical exams were conducted on 150 children. There was a complete lack of the type of physical evidence that is normally seen with sexually abused children. However, the doctor performed some new tests which have since been shown to be useless as a predictor of abuse. The doctor concluded that about 120 had been sexually abused. The whole town, particularly the parents of the allegedly abused children, went ballistic. Stories of child abuse included other locations: St. Cross Episcopal Church in Hermosa Beach, CA and 8 other Manhattan Beach schools. Teachers at the schools were said to belong to a Satanic cult and a child pornography ring. About 100 teachers "were accused of child molestation and/or Satanic rituals." 5 Children were pressured by parents; CII interviewers used leading, suggestive, and repeated questions. These are the precise techniques that almost guarantee the implantation of false memories in the minds of children.

The interviewers gave rewards to the kids for disclosing the "right" answers: These were that the children:
* were victimized by teachers who were members of an intergenerational Satanic conspiracy.
* were required to participate in "major, major sacrifices" connected with the "Satanic Church." 1
* were sexually abused by Ray Buckey who was dressed as a police officer, fireman, clown or Santa Claus.
* were forced to act in pornographic movies, and submit to the taking of millions of "kiddy-porn" photographs.
* saw the mutilation and killing of animals.
* saw an AWOL Marine sodomize a dog.
* Were forced to ride naked on a horse.
* were forced to engage in Satanic rituals, including ritual murder of infants and drinking of baby's blood.
* saw dead and burned babies, flying witches, movie stars and local politicians.
* were forced into a coffin and buried.
* were molested in a market and a car wash.
* were forced to watch while Ray Buckey killed a sea turtle by stabbing its shell with a knife; this was a demonstration of what would happen to the children if they told. (in reality, turtle shells are much too tough to be penetrated with a knife)
* were taken to the airport, traveled to Palm Springs either in an airplane or hot air balloon, sexually abused and returned.
* were driven from the school in cars, and sexually abused on the side of the highway.
* were flushed down toilets, traveled through sewers to a place where adults sexually abused them, cleaned them up and later returned them to the pre-school so they could be picked up by their parents.
* were taken through trapdoors in the floor of the center, taken through underground tunnels to both underground and above ground rooms where they were abused. No tunnels were ever found. However, some old trenches which pre-dated the McMartin building and were filled with pre-World War II garbage were located; some claim that they were tunnels that the staff had filled in.

A 1986 survey of residents in Los Angeles County was taken before the first trial. It showed that 90% of the potential jurors believed that Raymond and Peggy were guilty. In spite of strong bias by the townsfolk, the judge refused the defense's request for a change of venue. Judy Johnson continued to make allegations of abuse; among other charges, she said that her ex-husband had sodomized their son and the family dog, that her son had been injured by a elephant and lion during a school field trip, that her son had been tortured by teachers who put staples in his ears, nipples and tongue, and had put scissors in his eye. There was, of course, no physical evidence of any of this trauma. She was later diagnosed as suffering from acute paranoid-schizophrenia, was hospitalized and died at home of alcohol related liver disease before the trial began. Information of her mental illness was kept from the defense.

Armed with search warrants, they police searched 10 schools and one church. They found nothing. Groups of parents searched the school yard for signs of tunnels, underground rooms and sacrificed infants or animals. They did find the remains of a sea turtle. A forensics exam showed that the sand inside the shell was foreign to the area. This indicated that the remains had probably been dug up on a beach and planted in the yard.


I don't think you could create a case that was more like the Salem Witch Trials, and the author quotes a man who feels, in contrast to the sane members of the FBI, that the accused "got off." The author describes the evidence against Peggy McMartin Buckey and Raymond buck as "voluminous" - having a great volume, fullness, or size. Perhaps if you include utter bullshit as evidence, but otherwise not.

Again, from http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_mcmar.htm

In 1984-MAR, 208 counts of child abuse involving 40 children (some sources say 42) were laid against 7 adults: the owners of the school, Ray Buckey and 4 school teachers. After 20 months of preliminary hearings, the state's case appeared weak. They offered the defendants immunity from prosecution or leniency if they would be willing to testify against the other defendants. None took up the offer. The prosecution produced a pair of rabbit ears, black candles and a black cape during the trial. They presented these items as evidence of Satanic Ritual Abuse. The defense lawyers were able to prove that this material was totally unrelated to the McMartin case.

In 1986-JAN, Ira Reiner was elected district attorney. He dropped all charges against 5 of the adults. Remaining were 52 charges against Ray Buckey and 20 counts against Peggy Buckey, plus a single count of conspiracy.


After the trial:
In 1991, the accused sued the parent of one student for slander. They won the case, but were only awarded $1.00 in damages.

If there was such substantiation for the charges, how did the accused win the lawsuit? I'll note that it's VERY difficult to win slander lawsuits - the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

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From John F. Kihlstrom, "Hypnosis, Memory and Amnesia" - http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0962-8436%2819971129%29352%3A1362%3C1727%3AHMAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2

Hypnotic age regression can be subjectively compelling, but does not involve the ablation of adult memory, or the reinstatement of childlike modes of mental functioning, or the revivification of memory. The clinical and forensic use of hypermnesia and age regression to enhance memory in patients, victims and witnesses (e.g. recovered memory therapy for child sexual abuse) should be discouraged.

Recovered memory therapy is what was used to obtain the reports of SRA in most of the cases.

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Janet Fetkewicz, Verinder Sharma, and Harold Merskey concluded in their paper, "A note on suicidal deterioration with recovered memory treatment", in Journal of Affective Disorders, Volume 58, Issue 2, that:
The results support a trend in the literature that finds the diagnosis of multiple personality disorder and the use of recovered memory treatment are harmful.

Not only does recovered memory therapy hurt the innocents who are attacked as "abusers," it also damages the children that are led to believe that they were horrendously abused.

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L. Sher, in her work "Memory creation and the treatment of psychiatric disorders", appearing in Medical Hypotheses, Volume 54, Issue 4, discussing how false memories are created:

Recovered memory therapy is based on the concept of repression. Psychoanalytic theory suggests that people routinely banish traumatic experiences from consciousness because they are too horrifying to contemplate. However, there is no scientific evidence to demonstrate that traumatic events are repressed. On the contrary, it is difficult to forget a highly disturbing event. Children who witnessed the murder of a parent cannot forget this highly traumatic event. The same is true about war veterans, concentration camp survivors, and people who were involved in major disasters. The concept of repression is a theory, not part of scientific psychiatry. Sixty years of efforts to study repression in the laboratory have not produced evidence in support. Coons suggested that psuedomemories can result from 'suggestion, social contagion, hypnosis, misdiagnosis, and the misapplication of hypnosis, dreamwork or regressive therapies.'
Hyman and Billings recently investigated if college students will create false childhood memories. The authors found that approximately 25% of the students created false memories.
We cannot rule out that it is possible for people to forget traumatic experiences and later remember them. However, considerable evidence suggests that in many cases 'recovered' memories were created as a result of suggestion or other psychological maneuvers.


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The abstract for C. Brooks Brenneis' "Evaluating the Evidence: Can We Find Authenticated Recovered Memory?" in Psychoanalytic Psychology, Volume 17, Issue 1 (the full article does not appear in the database I have access to):

In the waning of the controversy over recovered memories of trauma, the question may be asked, What evidence is there that the phenomenon exists, not in disputed form, but in accurate and validated form? Because no memory can be authenticated in isolation, some form of corroboration is required. A single instance of validly recovered memory demonstrates the existence of the phenomenon. Can such a case be found? In search of the answer, a wide variety of case reports is surveyed. Only a few are without major flaws, but those few are provocative because, for the most part, they deviate substantially in context and content from the recovered memories most frequently described in the clinical literature. This casts doubt on the historical authenticity of therapeutically recovered memories and makes relevant for practice the possibility that they represent commentaries about the analytic present and not revelations about the historic past.

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From http://www.religioustolerance.org/rmt_comm.htm

Michael Yapko gathered statistics from therapists attending national and international psychotherapy conventions. These were supplemented by an additional 10% from his therapy training courses on unrelated topics. 64% had Master's degrees, 24% were PhD's. He found that:
* 97% believed hypnosis to be a useful technique
* 84% believed hypnotic age regression to be useful
* 54% believe that hypnosis can recover memories as far back as birth
* 41% believe that memories (even from the first years of life) are accurately stored and retrievable
* 31% believed that a trauma memory recovered during hypnosis must have happened.

We are unaware of any leading memory researcher who would agree with any of the last three findings. There appears to be a major gap between the beliefs of researchers and therapists.


---------------------------------------------------------------

Examples of implanted memories
By police -
From http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_baker.htm:


The McCuan and Kniffen Families

This was the first large Multi-Victim Multi-Offender (MVMO) child abuse case in North America. It was centered in Bakersfield and Kern County, CA. Two couples, Alvin & Debbie McCuan and Scott & Brenda Kniffen, were tried in 1983, found guilty, and given centuries-long jail sentences.

The McCuan/Kniffen convictions were overturned on appeal. The two couples were released from jail in 1996-AUG, after having spent 14 years in prison, isolated from each other.

The McCuan and Kniffen Investigation

The triggering incident occurred in 1980 when Becky McCuan disclosed that her grandfather, Rod Phelps, had touched her inappropriately. The family doctor confirmed the abuse. No charges were laid. Becky's mother, Debbie McCuan arranged for her daughter to obtain counseling. But Debbie's step-mother, Mary Ann Barbour, who is believed to have had a history of mental illness, felt that her step-granddaughters were not sufficiently protected. She obtained the assistance of the Mothers of Bakersfield, a group concerned about child abuse. Jill Haddad took particular interest in the case; she was the spokesperson for the group, and had many relatives working for local police forces.

Ms. Barbour claimed that Alvin and Debbie McCuan were not good parents, and that Debbie's day care license should be revoked. She asked the Social Services Department make a surprise inspection. The social worker, Betty Palko, found no major infractions and took no action to revoke the license.

Mary Ann Barbour became distressed when she heard that the McCuans had taken their two daughters on a supervised visit to see the alleged abusing grandfather and his wife. She is reported to have ended up in the psychiatric ward as the result of a psychotic episode. At a custody hearing in 1982-MAR, she was able to get custody of her step-grandchildren. County officials filed child endangerment charges against the McCuans. At this point, Ms. Barbour started to believe that a large "sex ring" existed in Kern County. "There is a group of people involved in molesting the girls. They are all in on it! "

The girls, Becky and Dawn were repeatedly questioned. They confirmed what their Step-grandmother had said. Over many months, their disclosures became increasingly bizarre. They said that had been hung from ceiling hooks, beaten with belts, rented to strangers in motels and been forced to act in "kiddy-porn" movies. They claimed that they were abused by a sex ring which involved their grandparents, their parents, their father's brothers, friends of their parents (Scott & Brenda Kniffen), the social worker who did the inspection, a co-worker of their father, and two unnamed welfare workers.

On 1982-APR-6, Becky was driven around the area to the homes of the alleged sex-ring members. She said that there were pornographic pictures, a sex toy and other evidence in the Kniffen home. The Kniffens were arrested two days later.

In their six month investigation, police officers ignored many factors:
* rope burns that would have been present if the abuse had happened were absent
* markings on the railing where the children said they were tied were absent.
* there were plant hooks in the ceiling, but they could not have supported a child's weight
* there were no ceiling hooks in the rooms where the children said there were
* there were no patches in the ceiling which would have been left behind if ceiling hooks had been removed
* Both Becky and Dawn told their parents' defense attorney that they had only accused one of their uncles because their step-grandmother told them to
* no pornographic movies, "snuff films" or movie cameras were ever found
* there was no evidence of physical trauma to either child, except for that attributed to the grandfather's alleged assault on Becky.
* the Kniffen parents voluntarily submitted to polygraph tests which indicated that they were both innocent. These tests are generally regarded as being accurate between 70 and 90% of the time. The probability of both parents actually being guilty and fooling the polygraph test is about 1 to 9%.
* Allegations of Satanic ritual murders came up during group therapy. Becky and Dawn led the police to the spot where they believed that the sacrificed infants were buried. Neither bodies nor disturbed earth (filled-in pits) were ever found. (Disturbed earth can be detected centuries after pits are filled in).

The social worker and her boyfriend (their father's co-worker) were tried separately. Their lawyer introduced Ms. Barbour's medical records into the trial. This evidence is believed to have convinced the Kern County District Attorney to drop charges against the couple. The medical records were then sealed and not permitted to be used by the defense in the subsequent trial of the McCuans and Kniffens.

The Kniffen sons, Brian and Brandon, were repeatedly and suggestively interrogated. The interviewers would describe a sex act and then ask the child to confirm or deny that it happened. When questioned separately, each was told (falsely) that their brother had disclosed abuse by both the parents and the rest of the sex-ring. Brian and Brandon claim that they were yelled at and terrorized by the interrogators. They were told that they could go home again if they testified about the abuse. These manipulative and coercive interrogation methods are now known to generate false allegations. "Questioning in Bakersfield went far beyond the definition of leading and was, in fact, coercive, threatening, brainwashing of young children." (1) Unfortunately, in early 1983, basic research into child interview techniques (2) was in its early stages; direct questioning and manipulation of children was common practice. The Kniffen boys finally caved in under the pressure and said that abuse had occurred.

During a supervised visit Brandon Kniffen was asked by his grandmother whether the charges were true. He answered "No. None of those things ever happened.". The grandmother was arrested for discussing the case with her grandchild; she was not allowed to testify at the trial, and had her visits terminated for years afterwards.

The 1983-4 McCuan and Kniffen Trial

The trial was held during 1983 and 1984. Dr. Bruce Woodling testified that his "wink response" tests on the children proved that sodomy had occurred. In the test, the anus is touched with a swab and a reaction is looked for. This test has since been totally discredited. Controlled tests have revealed that anal winking occurs in both abused and non-abused children. There was no other hard evidence of sexual abuse. The McCuans and Kniffens were convicted on multiple charges and given a combined sentence of over 1000 years.

Brian Kniffen later recanted, and said that he had been told what to say at the trial and had been promised that he could be with his parents again if he cooperated. His brother Brandon has also recanted. They have stated that the abuse never occurred and that they were led and coerced to testify as they did.

...

The 1996 McCuan and Kniffen Appeal

Mike Snedeker, lawyer and co-author of Satan's Silence (3) has appealed many "sex-ring" cases to the 5th District Court of Appeal and the California Supreme Court. He had won 14 reversals. On 1995-JUL-15, an evidence hearing was held on a request for a new trial for the McCuans and Kniffens. The hearing focused on the two issues that are common to many MVMO cases:
* child suggestibility during manipulative interviews involving direct, repeated questioning of sexual abuse
* the worthlessness of the "anal wink" testimony that was so instrumental in convicting the defendants.

Brian Kniffen, now 20 years of age, testified on JUL-25 how he was coerced and badgered at the age of 6 by social workers and district attorneys. Interviewed after the closed hearing, (4) he said "I believed my mother's words when she said to do what these people said. And I believed them...when they promised I could go home if I just said it all had happened. So I did. ...And I never did go home.". Commenting on district attorney Andrew Gindes, he said "He would slam books down, yell when we wouldn't cooperated. He was demanding and scared us and wouldn't take no for an answer...I wish I could talk to him now and ask him... why, why did he do that to me?" Brian lived in a total of 16 foster homes, some of which were abusive. When he was 13, his grandparents, Dick and Marilyn Kniffen, were finally able to obtain custody. His brother Brandon, age 23, testified that he had never been molested by his parents and that he only agreed to say so after many grueling interviews. He related "For a long time I felt deserted by my family...I didn't know that all along they were trying to see me, get custody. I just thought they had forgotten about me."

On 1996-AUG-12, Judge Jon Steubbe of the Kern County Superior Court overturned the convictions of both the Kniffens and McCuans, and ordered their immediate release. His main reason was (5) that the "the interviewing techniques used to obtain information from the minors were fraught with undesirable consequences." They had been in prison for 14 years and isolated from each other for crimes that they did not commit...in fact for crimes that never happened. Ed Jagels, the current Kern County District Attorney, described the case as being currently "unprosecutable" and has declined to retry the Kniffens and McCuans.

The Kniffens, parents and sons, have been able to reunite into a loving, supporting family. But the boys have since grown into men. The parents were absent from their lives for 12 years. Becky and Dawn McCuan have never recanted their court testimony. Their original accusations, obtained through improper interrogation methods, have probably coalesced into false memories; they probably believe that they were ritually abused over a decade ago. They have had no contact with their parents in 12 years.


----------------------------------------------------------------

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_breez.htm
By professionals with child protective services

The Bucks County, PA Day School Ritual Abuse Case:

This is a situation that started as a typical MVMO (Multi-Victim, Multi-Offender) ritual abuse investigation. However, it was terminated before it could be taken to trial. Otherwise, this case would probably have resulted in a costly trial, and long jail sentences for the accused. Unfortunately, this investigation was not stopped early enough. As a result, there are many area children with implanted memories of horrendous forms of abuse that never happened. Some of these will be haunted by false memories for their entire life.

The accusations centered around the Breezy Point Day School 5 in Bucks County, PA. A parent complained in early 1989 that her 4 year old daughter had been sexually abused. Her female teacher (married with children, 35) had allegedly penetrated her vagina with "cinnamon cream." Professionals from the Bucks Country Children and Youth Services interviewed students at the day school who all denied that any abuse had taken place. The interviews were repeated for months, both formally by the professionals and informally by concerned parents. Finally, two additional four-year old girls disclosed that they had also been abused with cream. Such disclosures are essentially routine even in instances where no abuse took place. All that is necessary is for well-meaning interviewers to use direct and repeated questioning. (1)

As in other MVMO cases, the charges began to multiply quickly. They also began to involve additional people: the teacher's husband and her female aid (age 68), etc. Further intensive interrogation brought a whole list of criminal activities: (2)

"..beaten by the teacher and her aide, locked in cages, and made to ingest feces and urine and to watch rabbits being slaughtered while the teacher held the animals' beating hearts. They had, furthermore, been abducted to various hotels to take part in group sexual activities, and had seen the teacher cut and stab other students. They had been raped by the teacher's husband and her two children, been photographed nude by the teacher's husband and been forced to set fires and to bury animals.

Children said they had been put in "locked cages" at school.

The prosecution of this case had been transferred from the Northampton police to Alan Rubenstein, the Bucks County District Attorney. He ordered a one year, full, intensive police investigation of all of the complaints, in an effort to obtain hard evidence of criminal activity that he could bring to court. Some results were:
* The DA investigators were unable to identify a secret room where some demonic ritual abuse allegedly occurred. The children described the large fireplace in the room. But no fireplace was found in any of the school's rooms. Parents suggested that the fireplace had been removed, but no sign of remodeling was found
* no remains of mutilated animals were found
* every child in the school was questioned; none could corroborate the charges.
* according to one child accuser, the teacher had identifying marks on her body that were not visible when she was clothed. None were found during a medical examination. The parent suggested that the marks had been surgically removed; but no evidence of the removal existed either
* the children were given medical exams to determined if they had been raped or stabbed. No evidence was found.
* the cages turned out to be the metal jungle gym apparatus in the school yard. The children used to play a game in which the boys "locked up" girls in the gym.
James Stilwell, who headed the National Agency Against the Organized Exploitation of Children Inc., studied the evidence. He concluded that a pedophile was indeed abusing children at the day school. His credibility was severely compromised when his expertise was found to be unrelated to child abuse; he was an unemployed plumber.

Lack of physical evidence did not deter other DAs from laying charges in previous cases, like the Fells Acre case of Malden, MA involving the Amirault Family or the McMartin cases of Manhattan Beach, CA involving Peggy & Ray Buckey and Virginia McMartin. There was no physical evidence at Bre ezy Point 5 to support the children's accusations. If their stories were accurate, then certain evidence would be have to be present - and it was not. But for once, the DA did the right thing. Alan Rubenstein announced that the charges were baseless and that no charges would be laid. He said in a 1997-APR interview, years later, that "I wanted to try the case myself...I was convinced it would be the greatest case in the history of my commonwealth. But there was no evidence at all, as in this case. I was instead convinced this was the greatest hoax in the history of my Commonwealth...The parents thought I was some victim of Witchcraft...But it was all the product of a shared hysteria." He was quoted in a newspaper article (4): "We proved that none of this ever happened...This wasn't a question of maybe it happened and we just can't prove it. This was conjured up by the hysteria of the parents who bought into this. It never happened."

In a subsequent civil defamation suit, the accusers paid the teacher and school an undisclosed sum.


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From http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_park.htm
And finally, by therapists:

"Michael Parker" Satanic Ritual Abuse case, North Carolina

It seems from the data that is currently available to us that this is a clear indication of a man rotting in jail for a crime that he did not commit -- in fact for a crime that never happened.

Michael Parker has been imprisoned in North Carolina since about 1991. As in many other cases of child sexual abuse, allegations arose during a divorce case and custody battle. He is alleged to have been the high priest of an underground Satanic cult operating in his neighborhood. Over thirty people were originally accused of ritual abuse of children, including Parker's own mother. According to Robert Chatelle, an advocate for the wrongfully accused: "Only Michael was ever brought to trial. The prosecution evidently came to realize that the case was so ludicrous that they couldn't hope to keep Michael in prison if they proceeded with the other charges." His mother pleaded "no contest."

None of the children had made any allegations of abuse. However, his former wife had been impressed by a book about Satanism, and had taken the children to therapists. During counseling, they disclosed having been abused by Satanists wearing Ku Klux Klan robes. One of the children testified that her father raped her with a big spoon. She said that it filled with blood, and that he poured it into a cup and drank it. One of his daughters, who had been in a mental hospital, said that Parker had molested her. She said that a poster on her bedroom wall, which advertised the "I Love Lucy" show, talked to her and told her that she deserved all her suffering.

Parker was tried in 1993 for ritually abusing his three young children. He was unable to afford a lawyer. The jury only took 55 minutes to find him guilty. He was imprisoned and will not be be eligible for parole until the year 2154 -- a date which is many decades beyond his life expectancy.

One of Michael's children allegedly sent a letter to a newspaper which said that no abuse ever happened and that the children were pressured into making the accusations.


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Sorry about the length.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Thanks for the sources, but
this topic was never really about Satanic cults, etc. I just wanted to see what sources you had. What cannot be denied is that there are pedophile rings as I have pointed out. Whether it is satanic or not isn't important to me.

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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Thanks anyway for helping keep my topic
near the front of the forum, hee, hee. :bounce:
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. You didn't spend much time on the propoganda matrix
checking veracity:

As reported by this journalist last month at Propaganda Matrix and Counter Punch, and by the Sunday Herald's Home Affairs Editor, Neil Mackay, the British intelligence services are actively engaged in preventing any further child sex revelations that could incite further hostility to an already unpopular Prime Minister and destroy the morale of troops set to invade Iraq. An intelligence officer told Mackay that "a 'rolling' Cabinet committee had been set up to work out how to deal with the potentially ruinous fall-out for both Tony Blair and the government if arrests occur.

Looks like they have some reputable sources here, and this is just one paragraph.

Methinks you don't know what yer talkin' about.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. I read that
That's part of why I see it as crap... I don't know if you saw my thread in Primary 04, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=293810">Things I've learned in GD2004, so far ... I said then that I don't trust Counterpunch, and my position hasn't changed. Their smears during the primary demonstrated to me that they are the Drudge of the left.

Basically, with the kind of crap that the Propaganda Matrix seems to delight in spewing ("Kerry's Skull and Bones! Eeek!"), I don't see it as a credible source. Kind of like how I don't consider some of the adamant MIHOPers here a credible source.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Kind of like a character assasin of any news source you don't like.


You are going to have to get specific with your claims against Counterpunch's veracity.


You haven't addressed the fact that the Sunday Herald is also mentioned.



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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. My bad
Edited on Mon Mar-29-04 08:00 PM by knight_of_the_star
Misread the post.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Absolutely. I can give you a perfect example.
Clinton was talking with the Chinese. Remember when we "accidently" bombed the Chinese embassy during Kosovo? Well...the CIA had given the wrong address.

Those who were part of that fiasco were censured except for the supervisor who passed the bad information on to the underlings. He ended up getting a job IN the Bush White House....PROMOTED, while others were censured.

Poppy Bush didn't want Clinton usurping his directives when it came to China. Bush is protective of China as if nothing can happen unless HE directs it.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Oh yea, THIS is why I love DU. I forgot
completely about that.

Now we don't know for sure, but it sure would be interesting to find out what the final word on that investigation was. How do you get a direct hit on the Chinese embassy????

Thanks bigtime blm. :thumbsup:

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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. oh HELL yeah......
from the moment bush had to toss the election in 92 to keep from being sent to fort leavenworth, his CIA and every other PNACer on the planet sought to use and destroy his administration.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. pope's ass pork?
bear shit in the cathedral?

pig piss in the woods?
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
11. ........
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 09:28 AM by 9215
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. Re: Clinton misinformation/Poppy dirty tricks ops 1992-2000
Since the Watergate fiasco, there have been a number of UN Security Council special ops to draw out the BFEE links between organised crime syndicates, foreign spying operations within the security and intelligence services in the US, UK and United Nations, and 'emerging nations' such a post-Gorbachev Russia.

These were especially active after Poppy was booted out by Clinton in 1992 and Margaret Thatcher was successfully sued in the UK for malicious harassment and conspiracy to committ grevious bodily harm, by the surviving son of Harry S Truman's murdered nephew Captain Gilbert 'Trump' Truman, VC - the one who had been working exclusively for JFK in covert operations to dismantle P2 Lodge terrorism cells that were using nuclear bomb material in the UK and elsewhere in a series of blackmail terrorism ops.

Most notable culminations of the UN post 1992 operations have been the US exposure of spies such as Aldrich Ames (CIA) and Bob Hanssen (FBI), but there have also been others whose identities and violations have been kept secret. In the UK, for instance, a number of plea bargain deals were done with Tory politicians who had been caught out (Jonathan Aitken, Jeffrey Archer, Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill Jr, etc).

The Ames and Hanssen convictions merely confirmed that the BFEE was involved in using Opus Dei networks as part of a sustained campaign to get a Republican president elected and to shame Clinton over leftover vulnerable areas post Whitewater.

The panic started when Roberto Calvi's missing briefcase emerged in a taxi in London in 1991, after an absence of nine years, and sparked mass paranoia from the Vatican. It contained all the codes and account numbers relating to offshore funds of P2 Lodge operatives worldwide who had been paid to infiltrate public life and act as intelligence conduits for the USSR. It also contained all the documented proof that Stalin's henchmen had resurrected the P2 in 1957 post Suez and that both P2 and Opus Dei were Stalinist vehicles for terrorism. And that notable european Nazis who had been let off the hook post 1945 were on the P2's books as mercenaries. Rather a lot of them in the UK and Europe....

The documents also showed which P2 payees and Opus Dei members had risen to prominence in public life, and named all those involved in a paedophile sex ring in the UK and US in the 1960s and 70s. Some had been caught and charged by police and then sued in a series of civil actions. Some did plea bargains to name others in the ring, and this led to the eventual collapse of Banco Ambrosiano.

The $70 million recovered in the Bahamas by City of London police last month relates directly to these funds. The Cavi murder trial was stopped last Wednesday as a result of this - 22 years' worth of evidence - suddenly coming to light.

The Calvi briefcase outing was a 'plant' and led to the UN Head of Military Intelligence paying an 'official visit' to JP2 at the Vatican. The meeting was billed as a regular Pontifical audience which was videoed for archival, historical reasons. What actually happened was more reminiscent of Monty Python's Life of Bryan than an actual kissing of the papal ring: the Pope was handed a subpoena citing him with malicious harassment of the UN Security Council and specific named individuals. And de facto masterminding of P2 dirty tricks to regain the money Ambrosiano lost after a series of disastrous sharedealings in the early 1980s. IE: Money laundering, theft, grand larceny, drug dealing, illicit arms selling and brothel running.

Anyone who has seen the video cannot help but chuckle as the Pontiff asks why the UN official is not wearing the 'customary black lace mantilla and modest black dress' instead of the heavy duty ceremonial UN uniform with row upon row of medals, attesting to a life of notable military achievement....And the look of astonishment on the face of the now Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz (JP2's private and personal secretary) as he too was subpoenaed with documents charging him with sex offences committed in the UK in the 1960s under the protection of the Polish order of Marian Fathers in Henley on Thames, Oxfordshire. And ancillary charges of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

This video and the subsequent successful lawsuit outcomes are held in secure archives of the UN Security Council. A number of accredited journalists and international political correspondents were allowed priviledged access to view this, just before the Lewinsky trial. The archive was then sealed. There is also another video showing Bill Clinton present at the original showing of this material to those journalists. That too was sealed.

Everyone I know who was at that press briefing has had to sign confidentiality agreements gagging them from discussing the specifics of the material.

Since that time, there have ben a number of UN follow up operations to stymie Poppy's revenge tactics as part of a huge, complex sting to expose the criminal network to which Opus Dei is affiliated and to dissassemble its political and economic agenda.

Bottom line is that when Margatet Thatcher was booted out of office in October 1990 - just before Gulf 1 - the UN Security Council resolved in closed, secret session that when John Paul 2 pops his clogs, the unique, illegal, undemocratic and criminal status of the Vatican City is to be disbanded. This was the direct result of criminal charges being filed against the Papal pro-Nuncio who had enjoyed 'observer status' at the UN and had been found to be suborning UN members to stop individuals testifying against the P2 Lodge and its direct involvement in Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. At that time Cardinal Marcinkus was still enjoying immunity from prosecution having done a deal with Bush 1.

The recent story in the UK about the UN being spied upon - including Kofi Annan - is the outer, public level of a huge UN Security Council covert sting op. Following the death of Armand Hammer and the UK's media crook Robert Maxwell in early 1990, UNSC ops were beefed up, culminating in Aldrich Ames and Bob Hanssen being busted and Opus Dei being once again exposed. The trail showed that former KGB chief Vladimir Putin was at the heart of the BFEE-sponsored Opus Dei money laundering scams that were flourishing in Europe and Asia.

However, to protect the sting op a number of new media barons were allowed to flourish in order to cover up the trail that led to BFEE-sponsored money laundering that still flourished after Bob Morgethau closed down BCCI in NY.

This was extremely good news for Bill Gates and his flourishing internet empire. The technology he was profiting from meant that the US's NSA had a virtual back door key to sophisticated survillance ops of fledgeling politicial discussion sites on the internet that began to emerge.

Rupert Murdoch and Conrad Black were alllowed to expand and were
given political access to new markets in order to build up new networks, which in turn were bankrolled into the age of the internet. In Italy Silvio Berlusconi emerged as the new media baron and flourished before turning to politics. In Europe elsewhere, new TV companies were given licences and old monopoly legislation was redrafted by an increasingly powerful European Union to allow for new media conglomerates to strengthen and expand.

However, in the UK, the run up to the 1997 general election - and the election of Blair- also saw a number of intelligence busts of media companies that had been caught using highly sophisticated 'subliminal imagery' via TV and radio broadcasts. A number of nascent internet subliminal ops were also busted in the US and later in Asia as broadcasters went online and started providing news coverage via the net.

This continued and was backed up by a series of very public disinformation strategies to give the public the idea that everything was OK, that there were no plans to close down the Vatican and that such old, established lines of traditional public life that had dominated the 20th century would flourish, eg like the UK's 'House of Windsor' with it's sham BFEE 'Queen Elizabeth II'. IE: Dominant = Safe.

One UNSC black op involved a sting on the financial services sector in the US and US. Using a highly sophisticated scenario, dissident factions of the UK's IRA were allowed to believe in 1996 that they had stolen a piece of ultra high tech communications equipments that belonged to the UN Head of Military Intelligence. Let's call it a "smart cell phone"....

This gadget provided electronic access to a security databank held by a new generation of intelligence gathering computers that made 'ECHELON' look like a dinosaur-age relic of cold war surveillance equipment. This gadget was then sold on the black market to BFEE-sponsored criminal networks connected to US politicians and bankers. Numerous attempts were then made to hack into the files that held information of the criminal associations of large financial corporations including the enegry sector.

The data files that were gradulally unlocked via this device showed a series of complex political, economic and financial scenarios that MIGHT ensue worldwide if certian individuals were to be bankrolled into public office, from local to national government. Ie. which criminal networks might flourish if their protegees were to be promoted to high office and the ensuing political treaties/pacts/alliances that might be permitted to flourish as a result.

In addition, to back up the plausibility of such political futures, a number of key counter-intelligence files were slipped in to sex up the potential of such scenarios. For example, key members of the BFEE who had turned states evidence before the Morgenthau BCCI investigation were allowed to believe that the UN Sec Council had done deals to ensure semi-permanent immunity from prosecution in exchange for plea-bargain intelligence on their rivals/competitors. EG: The UAE's Shaikh Zayed, principal shareholder of BCCI, and the Sultan of Oman, both allowed unprecedented access to security files they held on vice networks of their nationals in exchange for charges being dropped against their own criminal agendas.

Another good example was that Margareth Thatcher would be personally immune from criminal prosecution over the collapse of both Banco Ambrosiano and BCCI during the lifetime of Queen Elizabeth II "and her official successor Prince Charles". And that Shrub would believe his cocaine busts had been erased from criminal records as well as his bust in a paedophile brothel in London in 1982 just days before Calvi was found hanged. That particular trail has now resulted in the exposure of financial links to the UK underworld's involvement in Putin's activites in the KGB and has also linked Fausto Tonna - the Parmalat chief just busted in Italy for a $10 billion European dairy industry heist - to Licio Gelli - Shrub's man in Banco Ambrosiano/the P2 Lodge.

Upshot was that the counter-intelligence files led many BFEE-type figures to believe in their personal immunity from prosecution and led to them strengthening their power bases and expanding their networks.

There is now emerging proof that this led to the erasure of UN intelligence files about 'Al Qaeda'. However, there is also additional data surfacing that key Al Qaeda operatives were mercenaries recruited by dissident security/intelligence workers who had been paid by Opus Dei money laundering scams to delete operational information such as that which led to 9/11.

There is little doubt that major political internet web boards have been used to plant disinformation for monitoring purposes to further identify the connections of the Opus Dei trail: To identify and analyse the political leanings and financial status of those using the net, to establish their spending patterns and their support group networks and mark them for future covert ops to prove any criminal involvement.

The recent UN spying scam story that was in the news when Katherine Gun was acquitted in the UK on Official Secrets Charges and Kofi Annan was identified as a target of Blair's bugging ops are both cover stories for the serious charges that Blair now faces that he not only masterminded the theft of the UN Head of Military Intelligence's smart phone by IRA dissidents in his pay, but that he also allowed them to bankroll the hostage taking in mid 2000 of this person.

The currrent BCCI class action in the UK high court is awaiting the prosecution's key testimony which is being rolled out gradually - just as election fever grips the US and Blair prepares for a possible 2005 election. The top witness is to be the UN Head of Military Intelligence, and evidence of UN Sec Council covert ops to identify the criminal networks which control communications technologies, the media, finance, energy and politics dating back to 1972, when Harry S Truman died. And to put the final nail in the Vatican's coffin by stripping it of all illegal status as a 'sovereign state' within Europe.

The recent seizure of Roberto Calvi's $70 million of P2 Lodge funds stashed away in the Bahamas means that the City of London Police (which enjoys a unique status in the UK not subject to the Metropolitan Police which answers to the UK's Home Secretary) now has compelling evidence of all the main media/communications barons worldwide who can be prosecuted for conspiracy as well as the bankers and politicians who ensured their smooth path to golbal supremacy.

Adddendum:

Re: Poppy's continued war against Clinton:

I was at a UN press briefing in August 1999 when evidence of the alleged MURDER of JFK Jr was discussed.

It was alleged that despite public denial of any intention to run for the White House either in 2000 or 2004, JFK Jr was seen as a huge threat to the BFEE, in particular after covert briefings by the UN Security Council confirmed that 'the Zapruder footage is pure counter-intelligence'. And that despite Jackie Kennedy Onassis's last will and testament locking up all her personal family papers for at least 50 years after her death, duplicates were held by the UN Security Council archives, without specific restriction on their de-classification.

At the UN press briefing we were told that after JFK Jr's plane went down, a covert US Navy operation, reporting directly to the UN Security Council, sent divers to search for the wreckage. It was alleged that in Caroline Bessete Kennedy's purse they found two vials of 'a white powder'. One was nearly empty and the other contained approx half a gramme. Subsequent laboratory analysis showed very high grade cocaine laced with pure heroin in both vials.

I do not know if any toxicology tests were carried out in the post mortems held on Kennedy, his wife and sister in law because the Bessette family threw a massive wobbly at the mere mention of their daughters being involved in drug taking and did a deal with the FBI about the release of such sensitive information. But it was always widely assumed that adulterated cocaine laced with a lethal heroin dose had ben snorted by Jr and his wife after the plane had taken off.

It is notable that all three were rapidly cremated after the funeral.

My colleagues who were present at that UN press briefing recently reported that there was to have been a public annoouncement about the above, in January last year. And that enormous pressure was exerted to block this as long as possible.

Ain't wearing no tin foil hat if I say that it was extremely convenient that the Iraq war suddenly blew up and that a Wartime Presidential Leader emerged in the US, just like in the first Saddam war in 1991....A great hero who with his fearless UK counterpart, the UK Wartime Prime MInister, have been able to take up the righteous mantle of the defenders of the war against terror.


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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. this is extremely interesting - but it's your statement on the internet
is there documentation anywhere about these serious charges???

that the average person can read???
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Internet: In the UK all press references to this have been gagged
by a MoD D Notice. However, I am waiting for translations of Hong Kong sourced reports in Mandarin that were published in the last two years, when Rupert Murdoch was at his most persistent in trying to get a toehold in the Chinese markets.
I'm told that there will be online documentation available shortly about this.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. As I remember Calvi's cause of
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 02:34 PM by 9215
death was recently changed to murder. It would make sense that a screw-up as big as his would not go unpunished.

P2-- Dulles--Skorzeny (WWII Nazi). Skorzeny went to the MId-East to train Arafat, Nasser and Sadat. The Fedayeen were a CIA creation.

Thanks for the input. Sources here would be a big help.

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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Calvi death = murder: new police evidence in Italy trial:
As posted on DU from The Guardian:

"Eleven boxes and seven folders stuffed with new evidence were submitted to the court shortly before the start of the trial. A source close to the prosecution said it showed Mr Calvi's involvement in the laundering of treasury bonds stolen by the Mafia in Turin in 1982. The bonds had been passed to Banco Ambrosiano's chairman by Mr Carboni. The source added that Silvano Vittor, a Trieste-based smuggler who helped organise Mr Calvi's flight to London in the days leading up to Banco Ambrosiano's collapse, had admitted lying to investigators in the past."

and

"Yesterday's opening session heard testimony from forensic specialists who have been looking for DNA samples on a rubber finger-protector that was found in Mr Carboni's luggage in 1982. Prosecutors believe the sheath was used by Mr Calvi to protect a wound on his index finger and commissioned the scientists to attempt to match it with DNA samples from his body."

as posted: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

That's a hell of a lot of new evidence....some 22 years after the cosy arrangement of the cover up that ensured the Reagan/Bush 1 team could go on to re election in '84....


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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. Nonsense
pure, unadulterated nonsense
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Your agenda is not my agenda
but you posts speak volumes about you
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
16. I've often
wondered this myself, considering the bad intel that Clinton said he got on many things. I was listening to an interview with him on C-SPAN with Bob Dole a while back and he mentioned this. Remember the "aspirin" factory? It makes sense and we all know how much poppy stewed over losing to Clinton. My guess is Clinton--being the smart man that he is--has considered this, but you would never hear it out of his mouth.

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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Clinton's blindside
Both he and Hillary seemed to sense and distrust things like the CIA good old boys system, but they never seem to have dug into any reform or specific knowledge. Presidents learn not to rock the boat at the CIA. Clinton's genuine surprise at Gingrich boasting they would take him out, taking the chance on hiring that shill of a GOP campaign manager, walking into the Monica situation. Hillary's sense of the VRWC but lack of David Brooks details.

it all points to a JFK like idealism above the fray and a mind busy elsewhere other than the inner paranoia of the Rethug cabals. In a word, the hubris that goes with a Dem getting a job most villains would commit any crime for- and not watching his back.

You raise credible questions, but it always comes to this: will ANYONE root out such weeds and investigate? Guessing won't repair the harm and prevent worse. We at least need to know and get the truth out- free of irrational spin.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
18. Addendum: Perhaps the real question is Was Poppy Using
Aldrich Ames and his covert coterie in the CIA, as well as Bob Hanssen, whose Opus Dei connections are on record???

I am waiting the result of an archive search that shows that in mid 1986, the Dubai based Emirates News published a news item that said documents from Egypt showed that in 1962, Roberto Calvi (God's murdered Banker) was sued for maintenance/subsistence/educational support payments by the Syrian-born mother of Osama Bin Laden, in the family courts in Cairo. The news cutting specifically referred to blood tests at the Cairo hospital that supported the financial application.

I have not seen this archived online but have sourced a press cutting that is held on microfiche at Exeter University's former Centre for Arab Gulf Studies library.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
19. In the Age of Sacred Terror, which is cited extensively in TheClinton Wars
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 12:01 PM by AP
the authors note that Clinton begged for an invasion plan for Afghanistan, but the CIA told him that it would be impossible, that they didn't have good intelligence on Afghanistan, and that nothing could be done.

After 9/11, the CIA carried out an invasion plan that was actually pretty effective.

Clinton begged for a black ops mission to take out OBL. He was told, again, they couldn't do it, because they didn't have the technology. The best they could do was aim patriot missiles at his camp, but the 15 minute delay from launch meant that anythign could happen (which it did).

Bush, conveniently, has been using the Predator Drone, which, again, conveniently, was technology that came on line AFTER Bill left office.

Connect the dots. Makes you wonder if someone told OBL to get a move on after the Patriot missiles were launched. Makes you wonder if the Predator could have been ready before 2001.

It's funny how things worked to preserve for the next Republican president everything needed to reintroduce fascism to America.

Oh, also, Clinton gave the FBI millions for an anti-terror program. The FBI said they were using the money properly. Later, they admitted they spent it all on a counter-CYBER terrorism program. AAARRRGGHHHH!!!!!

Again, connect the dots.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. They couldn't have their best "asset" killed, now could they?
Thats what it comes down to. I am about 99.5% sure now that there is a rogue division of the CIA that is operated by the BFEE via George H.W. Bush. They can get away with doing these things because they can justify it to themselves as being necessary for national security ("Bin Laden is just too useful to kill!")
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I don't know how you can come to any other conclusion after reading...
...the Clinton Wars (the parts that cite The Age of Sacred Terror) and paying attention to all the other evidence.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. What is the name of the CIA building....
The George Herbert Walker Bush Bldg? Do you think for a moment that George Tenet does not listen to GHWB? And is not intimidated by him?
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. The PRESIDENT GEORGE H BUSH CENTER FOR INTELLIGENCE
time for a re-name I think

(Don't all rush with those nominations: Pinochio Towers, Dumbass Plaza, World Fiction Center...)
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. After the hearings...YES!
In fact, I now think it might be possible that they were somehow connected with the "Cole" bombing, but when it turned out to be not enough (apparently the people needed more than a Gulf of Tonkin to be persuaded) they went with the tremendous spectacle of 9/11. Am I crazy? Perhaps. But I think I will be vindicated to some extent in the months and weeks coming.
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. Somolia was dumped on Clinton
to make for a foreign policy headache out of the gate
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-26-04 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. December 1992
AFTER Bush lost, before Clinton took office, Bush sends US troops into Somalia, which was clearly going to be a disaster.

Yes, it was a set up, and attempt to sabotage a democratically elected president at the outset of his term of office.

These people are evil.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. What about the first WTC attack?
If Clinton can be blamed for 9/11 surely he can blame Poppy for the 1993 bombing.

PS. I think, but I don't know, that the first WTC attack was meant to be Poppy's Reichstag, but he lost the election and left it to be Clinton's first black eye.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
27. Poppy is an evil man and the CIA
is an evil organization. I trust neither.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. Poppy is a P2 mercenary who ensured Armand Hammer had
an easy time and that Aldrich Ames had the run of the CIA. That was the conduit that got Putin elected and opened up Russian oil and gas fields to the US energy industry. Predictably, however, the Russian mafia has been repeatedly busted, viz Mikhail Khodorkhovsky and his pals. Next on the list is Sibneft's Roman Abramovich, who is widely believed to be an Al Qaeda financial mastermind.

Poppy is long by his sell-by date. Can't see him either enjoying a 'natural death in ripe old age' nor continued immunity from prosecution in the US or elsewhere.

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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. This is a no-brainer: I figured it was true before Clinton's second term
There's no way they could unearth that much dirt about ANYBODY without some kind of targeted intelligence operations. What better access point that GHWB?
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-27-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. That's another good point.
Digging up dirt on Clinton, as indicated by David Brock in "Blinded by the Right", was a very high priority as most of us know. It's been awhile since I read the book.

I wonder who the contact person(s)in the intelligence community were that the Right was using?
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i_c_a_White_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
39. Yes
also a few had some untimely accidents, makes one wonder.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
40. Great thread. A lot of us know zip about this subject.
It's a really good way of getting us more informed. Thank you.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
47. Clinton is a paid member of the BFEE.
.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I don't buy it
Edited on Mon Mar-29-04 05:02 PM by tom_paine
Proof. Speculation? Some nice smoke to blow up my ass?

:puke: :puke:
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
49. Hell, Busheviks have been undermining America for DECADES
(back to when then were a small crew withing the Nixon Crime Family)

1968 sabotaging of Paris Peace Talks
Watergate
Iran Rescue Fiasco (so many Busheviks involved in that one, including Intel Officer Ollie North---would they kill their own men to make sure Raygun got elected--of course they would)
1980 October Surprise (would they arrange to have the hostages stay in Tehran for 3 more months so Raygun could get elected? Absolutely.)
Iran-Contra (just HOW DID the Busheviks establish a dialogue with Iranian radicals, I wonder)

And so forth. The Busheviks are able to do this because, likle the Caesers and Ferd Marcos before them, they are convinced that THEY are America and therefore anything they do no matter how corrupt is therefore "in the service of America".

Just so you understand what we are up against. Monsters.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
52. Was CIA using Poppy to undermine Clinton in the 90's?
Heroin Poppy in Afghanistan, that is.

All kidding aside, this is a great post as usual, 9215. Especially important that Gregg is now in South Korea. The set-up for the crisis over North Korea's nukes to reach the boiling point in Dumbya's second term is already in place. Along with Syria, Iran, Lebanon and perhaps Palestine invasions on the drawing boards, the BFEE is set to outpace itself for the award for Most Wars Started in a Single Administration.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Thanks. This could be.
What was the "Asian expert" doing? If this cabal tumbles we may find out.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
56. Yes! Just as they'll be working to undermine Kerry when he's in!
Even if we should retake the White House - and even Congress - the BFEE/PNAC Mob will be our greatest, most dangerous adversary foe. I'm not sure one can truly separate Al Qaeda from BFEE/PNAC!

:shrug:
:tinfoilhat:
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Not if the BFEE is destroyed. nt
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-04 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
58. Sounds Correct (as opposed to 'right') n/t
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
66. Octafish's Theory on Poppy, Head Turd of the BFEE.
Poppy learned the art of blackmail from two of the best the world has ever known, J. Edgar Hoover and James Jesus Angleton. So, if anybody knows how to keep Congressmen under control, it's Babs.
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-04 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. What is the relation between Bush sen. and JJA?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-03-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Both Yale grads, CIA folk, hated the commies...
Facts from a Yale article about an upcoming movie, loosely based on JJA's life:

The fly fishing secret agent

The James Wilson character is based on former CIA counterintelligence chief James Jesus Angleton '41. Angleton, whom William F. Buckley Jr. '50 unraveled in his biography "Spytime," was America's real-life Jason Bourne.

The Office of Strategic Services, the World War II ancestor of CIA, recruited Angleton -- a chain-smoking poetry addict, master fly fisherman and grower of rare orchids -- right after graduation.

Angleton was chief of counterintelligence from 1954 to 1974. He served in X-2, the OSS counterintelligence unit, during the war, and had a talent for burning and turning Nazi stay-behinds in Italy. He was eventually fired because he feared the Russian intelligence service would recruit moles in both the CIA and FBI counterintelligence. William Colby, the CIA director, branded Angleton as paranoid.

Yet, Angleton's fears turned out to be well warranted in the 1980s when both Aldrich Ames -- heading the CIA's anti-Soviet counterintelligence -- and Robert Phillip Hanssen, working for the FBI, both operated as moles for the Russian Intelligence Service.

CONTINUED...

http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=21091
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-03-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. You don't think JJA was Bush's BOSS?
Would seem about right. Angleton would be in a senior position, looking to recruit like-minded, cold-hearted NAZI enablers. Plus, they both seemed to have been working at the same time, in the same circles, against Castro and the "Bay of Pigs Thing."

The possibilities are endless: Dallas. Vietnam. Che. Watergate. October Surprise. Hinckley. BNL Iraqgate. Iran-Contra. BCCI. Savings & Loans. Selection 2000. ENRON Energy Policy. 9-11. Iraq Invasion... You know the story.
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