Oppression of Atheism in the courts

[Az]

NPR reporting on the Newdow case mentioned that when Newdow told the judges that no atheist could be elected to office the audience burst into applause.

Too sick to talk right now.

[stopthegop]

1. if it's true an athiest could not be elected..

and you're bothered by the fact, your issue is with the populace, not the courts or government...

I suspect it's true..

[Az]

2. Aggreed

That was my focus of anger. At the idiots applauding. Not the courts. Though I suspect I will be pissed at them shortly as well when they cave in to the mob.

[gWbush is Mabus]

35. i didn't see it but my interpretation of the event was that...

they were laughing at the JUDGE who said
prayer is not divisive

Newcom then made a witty retort that "...never get elected"

and they were laughing at the great comeback.


like i said, i didn't see it.
my point is that maybe the audience was not idiots, but athiests

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[JohnnyFianna1]

32. No,

Webster's dictionary defines a Bigot as 1. one obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own church, part, belief, or opinion. This means as long as he has a reason not to vote for an atheist (I personally believe that it's a silly argument anyway because there are very few notable atheists in polotics anyway)

[DrWeird]

47. His reason for voting against atheists is because their atheist.

It's like saying he would never vote for a jew, a homosexual, or a black man.

[bryant69]

58. NO it's not

Being an athiest is a choice. Being a jew or a black man is definately not a choice, adn being a homosexual may not be a choice. The situations are not parrallel.

I couldn't vote for an Atheist either, I don't think, but I would happily vote for an agnostic.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Az]

62. Choice

Try to not believe in god right now. When you manage it, tell me how I did it.

[bryant69]

71. So we aren't going to hold peopel responsible for their beliefs?

I could choose not to believe in God I suppose--but that would be intellectually and morally dishonest of me. But the option is there.

Where do Correct Ideas Come From?

Bryant

[Az]

82. Try it

Seriously. Try to believe there is no god. You will find you cannot do it. You do not choose what you believe. There is choice in how you wind up believing what you do. But even that is not as free as you think.

As to responsibility for what they believe. What do you know about the effects of atheism? Are you just presuming that being an atheist somehow makes a person immoral? Do you have knowledge of this? What evidence do you put forward to support this notion?

Perhaps there are ways that some manage to live without a belief in god and still hold to some forms of morality. You certainly will never find out without exploring. And that is the crux of the failure of bigotry. It makes assuptions about people based on one factor. Because you know that I do not believe in god you presume that I am immoral. That is all it takes to oppress a people.

[JohnnyFianna1]

91. Sigh .....another strawman

" Because you know that I do not believe in god you presume that I am immoral. That is all it takes to oppress a people."

[Az]

95. Can you clarify your statement

Simply claiming it is a strawman does not mean it is. If I am in error I would love to see your charge.

[JohnnyFianna1]

102. Simple ....

Where did he say I presume that you are immoral because you are an atheist. Here is your quote:

"Because you know that I do not believe in God you presume that I am immoral. That is all it takes to oppress a people."

[Az]

107. I will stand down

on this line. My actions have caused much of the thread to be lost and thus I cannot verify the line of reasoning. That and my judgement may have been impaired. I will concede the point for these reasons.

[JohnnyFianna1]

116. I understand and respect your judgement...

however, on the bright side, the mindless bickering here has taught me never to participate in Religous argumnents here at DU. What a sad hundreth post....

[Az]

117. They are not all this bad

I take responsibility for this one. Do not judge them by the results of my blunder.

[JohnnyFianna1]

130. It wasn't your blunder... I just believe religion shouldn't be a topic at

a political forum.

[prolesunited]

143. Seems to me

this current administration and much of the nation's populace IS trying to make religion a political topic.

Faith-based initiatives?
Gay marriage?
Ten Commandments monuments?
The Pledge?

You take religion OUT of government and I will agree that religion shouldn't be a topic on a political message board. However, while these people continue to try to force their brand of salvation down everyone's throats and establish a theocracy in the U.S., you will continue to find many of us speaking out — quite LOUDLY in fact.

[youngred]

139. Az You are often one of the best, brightest and most fair in theism thread

take heart, you do much more good than harm and its with people like you that there can be peace

[DrWeird]

111. "Where do correct ideas come from"

Implication- morality comes from God and those who do not believe in God are immoral.

That's the second or third time somebody's expressed that opinion in this thread.

Do you agree with it?

[JohnnyFianna1]

119. No, I do not, but I I do think that he was asking a rhetorical question

[Colin Ex]

127. I wouldn't quite call that a straw man.

Because people actually SAY that shit.

Didn't Joe Lieberman once say that atheists had no moral compass?

-C

[JohnnyFianna1]

134. Yes, but not on DU. That is why it is a strawman.

[ulysses]

126. what the hell is a "Correct Idea"?

Just as not believing in god would be intellectually dishonest for you, stating that belief would be intellectually dishonest for others.

[Mattforclark]

69. Weak atheism = agnosticism

strong atheism = I positively believe that God does not exist.
weak atheism = I don't believe that God exists.
agnosticism (original) = I believe it is impossible to know whether God exists.
agnosticism (modern) = I don't belive that God exists or that he doesn't exist.

Which of those would you vote for, out of curiosity?

[bryant69]

77. Any except Strong Atheism

For about the same reason I'd be leary of voting for a Fundementalist Christian. They have the answer. A Strong Atheist believes that religion is fundementally flawed and that people who believe in God are dupes or worse. Now they might not let those beliefs affect how they govern (in the same sense that it's possible for a fundementalist to govern without reference to his religious beliefs).

[Az]

92. A strong atheist and a fundimenatlist

have much in common. They move away from logic and assume they have all the issues resolved.

Now this does not mean that against specific claims for god an atheist cannot be absolutely certain. Suppose a claim for a god that makes all bricks float in mid air were made. A simple refutation of this god would suffice to be absolutely certain.

This is where the issue becomes fractious. Because there are so many claims for including countless unspoken claims, when an atheist proclaims they do not believe in god they are assumed to be refuting all the unclaimed gods as well.

Suffice to say an honest atheist will admit that they cannot know there are no gods in the universe. They may have found refutation for all reasonable claims they have been introduced too and thus consider themself a relatively strong atheist. But they cannot move themself into the absolute category.

[ulysses]

120. no.

Agnosticism (whether or not god exists is unknowable) is not atheism, weak or otherwise.

[Mattforclark]

131. That's the original definition...

put forward by Thomas Huxley, but the word has come to mean weak atheism (at least some think it has) in the modern lexicon.

[ulysses]

136. more's the pity, then,

and more qualifiers I get to trot out in conversation...:eyes:

[JohnnyFianna1]

74. Nice job, on a side note...When did this become Atheist Underground

[DrWeird]

86. Did you read the rules when you signed on?

"Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry."

[JohnnyFianna1]

94. I'm going to ask you, did I post any "racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic,

anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry."

[DrWeird]

99. Never said you did.

What did you mean by "atheist underground?"

[JohnnyFianna1]

109. You implied that I posted such a slur as for

Atheist Underground I was referring to the mindless flames over religion that have been lit by the heavy use of the word Bigot by because Indiana Democrat said that he wouldn't vote for an atheist.

[DrWeird]

118. Oh, Jesus fucking Christ. Another strawman.

I referenced the rules because there are comments in this thread that obviously violated them. You seemed to have missed that, so I posted the relevant rules. You're use of the term "atheist underground" is just what I expected it to be. You seem to think that opposition to anti-atheist bigotry is "mindless" and apparently this specific minority is not worthy of the protection of other minorities, and is somehow not worthy of discussion in a message board for progressives.

[JohnnyFianna1]

125. No, your "reference to the rules" was in response to my

post. Also how do you know what I think?

"You seem to think that opposition to anti-atheist bigotry is "mindless" and apparently this specific minority is not worthy of the protection of other minorities, and is somehow not worthy of discussion in a message board for progressives."

[Malva Zebrina]

122. and many would prefer to call themselves "agnostics"

because it is more socially acceptable and less controversial.

[Wilber_Stool]

142. an agnostic....

is an Atheist that doesn't like to argue.

[lazarus]

145. You're an atheist

Unless you believe in all gods.

[youngred]

149. I disagree completely

actually

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

15. Relax, hit alert...

let the reaper come.

[Indiana Democrat]

21. Are you an ignoramous for not voting for repukes?

Are you a bigot for not voting for them?

I assume you don't vote for them because of what they do or don't believe...Same difference...No matter how much you whine and call names.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Indiana Democrat]

30. No, it's not a bigoted position.

It's a core belief based on the actions and core beliefs of others.

Just like I don't vote for repukes...Based on their core beleifs and actions as a national party.

SAME. EXACT. THING.

[Ripley]

34. Remember this country is not a theocracy.

Yet. So why do you use religion as a litmus test for leading the country?

[Indiana Democrat]

43. Because it's something I believe in.

[Ripley]

48. But your belief seems to discriminate against millions of Americans.

You don't even know. You are making judgements about people you have never even met it sounds like. Those are called "stereotypes."

[Indiana Democrat]

53. And if you don't vote for repukes...

...you're making judgements against ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION AMERICANS.

Now...Who's worse?

[Ripley]

I know Republicans.

And what their agenda is. How do you know what an atheist's agenda is? Do you think Buddhists, or Mormons, or any other religious candidates have an agenda?

Personal religious beliefs or non-beliefs are just that, Personal. Do you really think GW is a born-again Christian? Do you believe Jesus wanted him to drop bombs and kill thousands of civilians? Just because someone says they are Christian is meaningless to their true nature. Witness Priest scandal, Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker to name a few.

[FreeSpeechCrusader]

67. no we're making a choice of beliefs

just as you did in choosing your religion...but I don't discriminate against good republicans...you discriminated without knowing atheists...you said so yourself with your "show me a good atheist" line earlier. It is quite disgusting as we have no basis for religion but faith...I myself believe that religion has been used to start wars, discriminate against countless innocents, and as a crutch so that people can get along...but I do not discriminate against those that do have a set religion...because I believe in the freedom of beliefs and thoughts.

[JohnnyFianna1]

89. God... Another Strawman...

"It is quite disgusting as we have no basis for religion but faith...I myself believe that religion has been used to start wars, discriminate against countless innocents, and as a crutch so that people can get along..."

Some people like Sean Hannity say the same thing about liberalism, how strange it is to see these tactics being used at Atheist Underground

[DrWeird]

37. Core belief?

Just like the core belief that blacks are unfit for public office, or jews are greedy, or muslims = antifreedom.

Why do you hate america?

[Indiana Democrat]

49. You're the one stating those things about minorities.

Minorities due to the way they were born...Not for what they BELIEVE.

YOU'RE the one showing bias.


Cute games you're trying to play with me though...Weak, but cute.

[DrWeird]

52. Actually no...

you're the one who said "muslim = antifreedom."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. Whoa! Links?

Even if this particular message was deleted, I'm curious about what the discussion was about.

[DrWeird]

133. Here you go.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1264510>

See also the breast thread.

[JohnnyFianna1]

54. Damn it.. stop using Strawmen

He didn't say that at all, and your comparison is unfair because the general assumption for " I wouldn't vote for an atheist/Muslim/Jews b/c........it would affect the way he/she governed." This doesn't apply to blacks

[DrWeird]

64. This is a discussion about bigotry.

Saying you won't vote for someone because of their personal spiritual beliefs is very much like not voting somebody because of the color of their skin.

As far as his opinion towards muslims and foreigners, those are his words.

[Trajan]

28. Ignoramus ...

One who is ignorant ...

We are ALL ignorant ..

YOU are ignorant for presuming that atheists 'have no basic beliefs' ...

I suppose saying we, as atheists, 'have no basic beliefs', was a kindly and understanding gesture full of the knowledge of what atheists do or do not know or believe ...

[Indiana Democrat]

I said THE basic belief.

As in THE basic belief in a Higher Being.

BIG difference.

Now...How about you and repukes? I can only assume you don't vote for them based on THEIR lack of basic beliefs in some things you hold dear?

Does that make you "Ignorant"?? I'm guessing not.

[Az]

57. You vote based on

what they want to do to you and your country. You vote based on what their actions prove over time. You cannot know what is at their core value system. Thats the trick of our subjective existance. We don't get to know what everyone else is thinking.

Are you suggesting you somehow are gifted to know what a persons core beliefs are from a distance? Atheism is just a statement about the fact that the person has no belief in god or gods. It tells you nothing about anything other than that. There are entire societies and cultures that are atheistic and they have survived longer the Christianity, Judaism, and Islam combined.

There is more to thinking than counting on some external entity being the basis for all your descisions. In fact relying on such a thing suggests that you yourself are incapable of determining right and wrong. Do you not have the courage and understanding of those around you to form your own opinions of right and wrong.

I offer you a story. 42 kids taunt a bald man of god. God sends 2 bears to maul and kill the children. Was this right or wrong?

[kiahzero]

24. There's a difference; It's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise

Being a Republican is a political philosophy. Being an atheist is not.

You should vote for people because of their political philosophy... other factors, such as religious philosophy, are irrelevant. Discriminating on those factors is, in fact, bigotry.

[Indiana Democrat]

60. If you don't believe in God, I don't believe in YOU as a leader.

Same thing.

Sorry, not gonna let you throw around the word bigot and cheapen it so.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stopthegop]

90. not voting for someone is not killing them..

hyperbole there...

if someone running for office belonged to a religion that required human sacrifice (there have been some) would you consider voting for them?

[ieoeja]

73. Why?

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Az]

38. Just so we understand you

You believe that a person posessing a belief system including a god is superior to someone whose beliefs do not include a god. Such as clergy who take advantage of their position to molest children.

You believe that a belief in god provides for a higher moral strength. As exemplified by the excessive number of believers in prison relative to atheists (prison records show Judeo/Christian comprise 83% of the prison population while Atheists comprise .2%).

You believe that you are morally superior based on your presumptive belief in an entity that you cannot detect. While I seek truth and understanding and by means of that path have not discovered any suggestion of the existance of a god.

Just so we understand.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. CALM DOWN AZ! We don't want YOU banned.

Do like me instead... Quietly click that little link at the left that begins with the nickname of the person that should be sitting in the WH right now and ends with the last 3 letters of Ernie's pal in Sesame Street.

[Az]

72. Rage descending

Pulse returning to normal.

Anger coming under control.

.....

Sorry for the outburst. Yeah, I get angry too.

[stopthegop]

9. no ...not necessarily bigotted..

it would be possible for someone to reason:

1) looking around,the world is clearly designed/controlled by a power
2) not realizing this (1) is a sign of a disconection from reality
3) such a person is not who I want to vote for

it can be a thought out decision

[Indiana Democrat]

26. Correct!

But unfortunately we have people who cheapen the word "Bigot" by throwing it around all too often.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

76. Often?

How strange. I must have read a gazillion posts from that guy and I never heard him call someone a bigot on his/her face until now. Wonder why.

[Mattforclark]

31. You mean like

"1) looking around,the world is clearly designed/controlled by a power"

Evolution?

[stopthegop]

33. more like God

that's a reasoned view and position

[DrWeird]

42. No it's not.

"just look around, obviously God did it" is not a reasoned position.

[Ripley]

44. I was hoping that was sarcasm.

I guess I overestimated that one. ;-)

[Mattforclark]

46. Would you mind explaining

the reason behind it? I am not aware of any as of yet?

[Trajan]

83. For one to presume a god ....

One must first define the god ...

Ill use the PRIMARY characteristics of the worlds primary deities:

OMNIPOTENT

OMNISCIENT

OMNIPRESENT

Now: ... Using the FIRST characteristic: Can we look around, and say that the facts of what we see is evidence of an OMNIPOTENT god ???

OMNIPOTENCE = absolute and COMPLETELY perfect power ...

An ALL POWERFUL god cannot fail to make an all powerful, and
therefore PERFECT product ....

Yet: ... we see a world FULL of imperfection, from the breakdown of ozone, to congenital birth defect, to war and hunger, to the destruction of innocent life from 'acts of nature' ...

EXPLAIN what in the universe gives us a clue that it was designed by an omnipotent god ...

Secondly: .. Omniscience: ... the ALL KNOWING god ...

For this: ... I ask: IF a god created mankind, and that god 'knew all', .. then WHY did god make hell ? ...

IF, according to the abrahamic faiths- god created EVERYTHING, then god created hell ... IF god created hell, and 'god knows everything', then god created hell because he KNEW that men, his creatures created through god perfect hand, would fail to behave ... so: .. God KNEW men would fail even before he actually created them, because he is 'omniscient' ...... yet: IF god created hell, and therefore KNEW mankind would prove defective in the end, then WHY wouldnt the perfect, all knowing god instead REcreate mankind as to NOT be such failures as creatures ? .....

WHY did god create hell, when he could just as easily, given his perfection and infinite foresight, to use that 'perfection' when he created mankind ?? ...

Thirdly: ... OMNIPRESENCE is considered the ever present nature of god ...

Well: .. Im not sure what anyone else thinks: But I havent seen a REAL god anywhere, let alone EVERY where ....

OMNIPRESENCE ?? ..... I cannot square this with NO presence ...

THis presumption that one can 'find god' in the objects of the universe borders on panatheism, and harks back to the "Nature Gods" of the ancient era ...

One looks to a rock and says "God" .. I look to that same rock and say "lava, hardened, eroded' ...

I am ALL EARS for true evidence of an existent god ... But you can see that rational men can come to rational conclusions that do not include your god ...

UNTIL one can present such evidence: .. perhaps it is less then ingenuous for someone to point to a 'thing', and demand everyone believe their invisible god made it ...

[Trajan]

36. Explain the design ...

Of Leukemia ...

Explain how one looks to a child suffering the agony of a massive, terminal brain tumor, and thinks: "Oh my goodness: this PROVES a loving god exists' ...

I would love to hear that ...

Indulge me ...

[Mattforclark]

55. How about the wonderful Dicrocoelium dendriticum?

God must have been feeling grumpy...





Dicrocoelium dendriticum is called the lancet liver fluke because of its characteristic shape. Unlike most other digenetic trematodes whose life cycles involve aquatic or marine hosts, the life cycle of this parasite is completely terrestrial involving a terrestrial snail as the first intermediate host and an ant as the second intermediate host. The definitive host, which includes sheep, cattle, goats, pigs, and humans (rarely), is infected when it ingests ants that are infected with metacercariae (view diagram of the life cycle). In the definitive host the parasite migrates into the bile duct and causes pathology similar to that caused by Clonorchis sinensis. This parasite is distributed throughout much of Europe and Asia, and it is also found in parts of North America and Australia.

[JohnnyFianna1]

79. i don't know what this proves.....

[Mattforclark]

87. It proves absolutely nothing!

[stopthegop]

61. that becomes a religious conundrum...an old one..

I don't have an answer for that...
I'm just saying the vast majority of people believe in some form of God...and to them not seeing the truth of God can seem like a failure to see reality..and that can be a reason not to vote for someone...
people choose who to vote for or against using whatever criteria they choose...

does your openness mean you'd vote for a fundamental Christian? and if not, why is that different?

[JohnnyFianna1]

65. Because all feelings of pain and negativity are Adam and Eve's ...........

fault... Essentially she/he is suffering from Adam and Eve's sin.

[Trajan]

110. Since mankind is 'animal' ...

and since man shares the earth with other 'mammals', with whom they also share REMARKABLY similar nervous systems that react to stimulii in nearly INDENTICAL ways: ... explain then this: ...

IF men experience pain and suffering because of adams and eve's 'sin', ... then why do ALL other mammals ALSO react to trauma and illness in an INDENTICAL manner as man ? ...

The actions of mankind's biological systems mimic nearly EXACTLY those of other mammals: .. mammals that do not need 'sin' to explain its sufferings ...

To see an ENTIRE world of fauna, with nearly IDENTICAL biologies as mankind, suffer pain because of 'stress', but then to separate mankind from this general group, and explain ITS suffering as caused from 'sin', ... one can see this position forces the holder to stretch credulity to its limit ....

I see no reason to presume mankind manifests identical earthly experiences like pain in UNlikely and UNearthy ways ....

[Chovexani]

51. Allow me to play Devil's Advocate

An atheist:

1) looks around, and decides the world was clearly not designed or controlled by a power

2) decides that believing in such a power is a sign of delusional thinking and disconnect from reality

3) decides he/she would never vote for someone so clearly delusional

If someone posted that on DU, they'd get flamed to kingdom come (and rightly so). They'd be called an anti-religion bigot, and blamed for propagating the right-wing talking point that liberals hate Christianity. And yet, because atheist/humanist viewpoints are in the minority in this country, it's somehow ok to denigrate atheists and say they aren't fit to serve in public office?

Am I insane for seeing this double standard for what it really is?

[stopthegop]

66. such an athiest would not be bigotted...

just didn't vote for someone that thinks differently than he does

[DrWeird]

6. Yeah, you also think Americans are inheritally superior

to foreigners.

[JohnnyFianna1]

18. Strawman argument

[DrWeird]

23. How so?

nt

[JohnnyFianna1]

40. He didn't say American's are inherently superior to others, you imply that

he did.

[DrWeird]

56. No, he did say that.

In another thread.

[Chovexani]

7. How kind of you.

Now substitute the word "Catholic" for atheist, and look at how that sounds.

No wonder there's so many bitter, angry atheists on DU.

--C (a Wiccan, if it matters)

[Indiana Democrat]

13. I don't have a problem with catholics...

...nor anyone of any religion. I respect those who worship a higher being...In general, I think it gives them direction in their lives when they are concerned about their eternal souls.

Now...If I knew an athiest personally, and knew they were a good person, my opinion may be swayed...Just like it may be with a repuke (My only exception to my "Broken Glass Democrat" rule is with local politicians...Those who I know personally.)

[DrWeird]

19. "...nor anyone of any religion." Except, of course, muslims.

"muslims = antifreedom" - Indiana Democrat

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

97. If he said that, then... nah, I won't complete the sentence.

Don't want mod warnings.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[T Wolf]

41. the truth comes out

For your information, some people who are non-christian do NOT believe in an afterlife and therefore, are not concerned about their eternal souls.

Your christian bigotry is blatantly obvious.

[hippiegranny]

78. sounds like you automatically assume atheists are bad people

>Now...If I knew an athiest personally, and knew they were a good person, my opinion may be swayed<

define good. it's like legislating morality. that is why there is SUPPOSED to be a separation of church and state. they absolutely have nothing to do with each other. look at what our self proclaimed chosen by god potus has done. here is a perfect example of someone who is not a good person at all, no matter how religious he claims to be. yet, this giggling murderer gets an automatic pass from many christians because he pretends to be faithful.

[kiahzero]

88. That's the worst possible justification of morality

In general, I think it gives them direction in their lives when they are concerned about their eternal souls.

Do you really want to support people who only care about other people because some Infinite Father will spank them if they don't? Doesn't that mean that they only really care about themselves?

[youngred]

147. I am a theist

but I have little to no care about my eternal soul. I seek to make the world better, and hope that my actions in doing so will gain me erternal salvation should such a beast exist.

Why can't one's direction be their life itself and trying to lead it as best they can? Why can't one's direction be improving the existance of others? Why does one's direction have to be getting into heaven?

[Ripley]

11. How condescending to millions of Americans.

What is a "basic" belief? Just because people go to church and say they are Christian, do they really follow the Bible's "belief" system? If so, why are so many Christians liars, thieves, murderers, etc?

Why do you insult people like me who don't believe in your God? Because I thought I lived in a "free" country. Free not to believe.

[Indiana Democrat]

16. You're free to believe in anything you like...

...just like I am...And also vote anyway I like.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

112. Please... AIR!

(Breathes deeply)

[Trajan]

14. I am an Atheist ....

I have no basic beliefs ....

Duh ...

Dribble ...

Drool ....

[MAlibdem]

20. you may be confusing atheism and nihilism

atheism is the rejection of G-d

nihilism is the rejection of meaning of everything


if you're not confused, then shame on you.

[goodhue]

80. yes, agreed

Equating atheism with lack of basic belief is indeed confused.

[BurtWorm]

39. I have problems voting for Christians for a similar reason.

Because I think Christianity is an insane belief system, and anyone who subscribes to it is either insane or clearly not paying close enough attention to what they claim to believe in.

;)

[JohnnyFianna1]

45. That is your opinion you are entitled to that opinion and are free to vote

for whoever you choose.

[BurtWorm]

59. But my reasoning is actually more sound than one who rules out atheists

for not having beliefs! Atheists have beliefs, they just tend to be more based on rationality than Christian beliefs.

I'm not being serious, you know. If I ruled out Christians--or self-proclaimed believers--I'd have no one to vote for! I'm just giving the previous poster a taste of his own medicine. This is what it feels like to atheists to be ruled out for their beliefs. It feels like bigotry.

[JohnnyFianna1]

70. This is true..

Atheist's beliefs are indeed more rational than Christian's Beliefs however, that is the point of faith. As for being ruled out for their beliefs...that is somewhat strange, but....At least he is being honest.

[BurtWorm]

75. This is also true.

I'm lalways ooking for an excuse to lay into Christians and other believers for their irrationality, cause boy do I have a lot to say on that subject! But it's just not polite, so I don't. Mum's the word!

[goodhue]

93. I too have problems voting for Christians.

I was raised in zen buddhist household and married into a jain/hindu family. I hate it when politicians invoke christian god and have a hard time voting for those who do. But sometimes I just have to hold my nose and vote those annoying christians in despite their disrespect of my basic beliefs.

[BurtWorm]

123. That's the fact of living in the US.

In other countries, religion is out of the picture. It's strange to think the American revolution had such an influence on Western democracies--and such little influence on its own!

[Az]

85. I owe you an apology

I reacted baddly. I can plead to anger but I fear that does not justify my tone. I am sorry.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. Check your inbox (nt)

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ieoeja]

115. Indiana Democrat explains the tie between Religion and Republican

From another of your posts ... In general, I think it gives them direction in their lives when they are concerned about their eternal souls.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this sounds like you are saying that believers in an after-life will do good things to gain that after-life. This would seem an excellent fit for the Rightwing belief that people will only do good when it benefits them personally.


Do you WANT to hurt other people, but restrain yourself because you want to get into heaven? In that case you're just wasting your time. Cause didn't Jesus say that a good deed done for reward, e.g. heaven, is a good deed that deserves no reward?

If your God proves to have been more than the figment of the imagination of a desert nomad from five thousand years ago, and if it turns out that Jesus was the real thing (and Mohammad not), then heaven is going to end up being populated by nothing but atheists.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

121. Hear hear! People like that make me scream for AIR! (nt)

[youngred]

That's ridiculous

Would you not vote for a Muslim? Would you not vote for a Jew? Would you not vote for a Christian?

All of them have different beliefs. Even Atheists believe that there is no God, you're being prejudiced against their beliefs.

[MadProphetMargin]

5. Take a look at THIS:

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
-- Randall Terry, quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, August 16, 1993

"We are approaching a time when Christians, especially, may have to declare the social contract between Enlightenment rationalists and Biblical believers - which formed the basis of the constitution written at our nation's founding - null and void."
--Cal Thomas, conservative commentator; Washington Times, 1996-OCT-23

Welcome to Ashcroft's (and his ilk's) America. Gaze upon it, and dispair. These chuckleheads are finally getting their way.

[Chovexani]

17. That reminds me of one of my favorite Pat Robertson quotes

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. 'You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'"

:eyes:

[Trajan]

22. I see no difference ...

Between Robertson's view, and the view expressed by Indiana ...

NO daylight between their 'basic beliefs' ...

[Chovexani]

29. Exactly.

But, then, bigots rarely recognize themselves in the mirror.

[rexcat]

96. Indian has been consistent about the way he/she

attacks atheists over many threads that relate to religion and atheism over the several years that I have been apart of DU. There is no sense in trying to discuss this issue with this person because they are not going to change their mind. If Indian wants to believe in make-believe things in the sky and evil things in the center of the earth it is his/her right. On the other hand the ignore button might be appropriate for this intolerant person. I am also sure that if an atheists ever personally knew Indian they would not be friends. Intolerance is just so negative and not worth it.

AZ: I have a lot of respect for you. Your posts are intelligently thought out. Don't let the cretins get you down. I also don't think that things will improve much more in my lifetime but I can hope for the best. We atheists need to be model citizens, well informed on the issues and lead good lives, which for the most part I think we do a good job of doing.

On edit - I have resisted hitting the ingnore button in the two + years I have been at DU. I have been attacked, including my children (of all things) by some overzealous people without kids about a year and half ago and didn't hit the ignore button but Indian went over the line again today.

[Az]

104. I know

He just hit me at a bad moment. I have apologised to him for my behaviour.

Thanks for covering while I blew my lid. I feel better now. A little dizzy but it will pass.

[rexcat]

114. Just keep up your excellent posts...

You are much more articulate than I am and it is always a joy to read your posts!

On edit - the ignore button really works!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

129. Yes, but sometimes I wish it would "ignore" more

Like, messages not appearing at all on the thread view, nor any descendants.

The way it is, the appearance of an "Ignored" message tickles my curiosity more than it should.

[Trajan]

135. Az ...

Is 'the man' ...

[Cleita]

50. Not only atheists, but I daresay anyone who doesn't

practice Christianity or Judaism as a religion don't stand a very good chance of being elected either unless it's a person in a homogenous community, like an Asian Buddhist in an Asian community. Even Jews don't stand much of a chance in communities that are predominantly Christian I'm afraid.

[Chovexani]

81. Unfortunately, you're right

I guess that's why I feel the need to speak out whenever I see people pissing on atheists. Historically speaking it wasn't very long ago that people were called witches (a word I claim proudly) and lynched in this country.

For pete's sake, just look at what happened a few years ago. There was a public outcry because Pagan soldiers were allowed to worship on military bases (the horror!). * himself said he didn't think my belief system was a religion and he thought we didn't deserve any rights.

People claim to be tolerant but when faced with belief systems that they can't understand, their true colors show (like in this thread). It's why I'm very concerned about the Religious Reich's level of influence in this country. Sure, they're a vocal minority, but lots of people privately agree with some of the crap they espouse.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

84. * said people with your beliefs have no rights?

What a coincidence. His dad said the same thing about mine.

[Chovexani]

103. Heh.

I remember that quote. I think I posted it upthread.

Crap like this is why everyone needs to belong to groups like Americans United. If we don't hang together we hang separately.

[Exultant Democracy]

100. Christians that do not believe in the separation of church and state,

are not only fools, but that are also not Christians.

Their own lord said “Rend unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s.”

The only conclusion is that people who try, in any measure, to inject Christianity into politics and government (either in the way they vote, or the laws they make) are either supremely ignorant of the teachings of their Christ, or they are EVIL by the standards that he clearly set out for them.

[JohnnyFianna1]

106. Great Job.... it's nice to see that there are still some nice Christian

Democrats

[stopthegop]

108. OK...that's lunacy...

"people who try, in any measure, to inject Christianity into politics and government (either in the way they vote, or the laws they make)"

so...a Christian (and I presume any other religious person) can't decide how to vote based on his beliefs? on what then?

[kiahzero]

132. On people's political philosophy

That is the ONLY thing you should vote on.

Let us assume X doesn't like the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. X therefore decides not to vote for John Kerry. This would be a bigoted vote - he is not voting against Kerry because of Kerry's positions, but because of who Kerry is - a Catholic.

[stopthegop]

138. no...he's voting on what he believes v. what Kerry believes..

voting against someone because you disagree with him is not bigotted, it's voting based on your beliefs...and political philosophy involves all sorts of things that overlap with religious belief...

and who are you to say what I should base my vote, anyway?

[kiahzero]

141. Um, you didn't read my example

X supports abortion rights. Kerry supports abortion rights. X does not vote for Kerry because Kerry is Catholic, a denomination that does not support abortion rights.

[stopthegop]

146. you're right...I apologize...

in your example I assumed the candidate believed the tenets of the religion...still..people have the right to vote based on whatever they choose...you think JFK and Clinton were not helped a tiny bit by being young and good looking?

[Exultant Democracy]

137. Only is you read it in the manner of a lunatic.

People should vote based on how they believe a government should govern. That is at least how Christ would feel if you look at his quote. People should not vote for people, because they, don't eat meat on Friday, won't let gays marry, or have a plaque of the ten commandments.

It is in the Bible and the bill of rights, because the people are poorly served by the intersection of religion and politics.

Perhaps the American Taliban wish that it wasn't so, but they should blame Christ for not picking up the sword. Not todays atheist for trying to protect their rights.

[Chovexani]

113. Funny how the fundies always forget that verse!

When I point that out they say I'm taking it out of context. :eyes:

People like you are a treasure. I wish I knew more like you (unfortunately I'm surrounded by fundies).

[camero]

124. Oh sweet Jesus

What the hell does a person's religion or non-religion have to do with thier qualifications for office. Are we really that brain dead?

We as in US and I think I answered my own question.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

128. oh well, one day we may make it out of the dark ages.

one day we may try to base our world view on actual facts while realising that or subjectiveness will probably get in the way.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

- Stephen Roberts

[Malva Zebrina]

140. I suspect that soon the numbers of atheists will rise

in this country.

that politicians will deny this is not relevant.

Sooner or later, it must be faced. REligion and beliefs in god, is oppressive, prejucial, and bigoted.

Almost every mainstream religion is bigoteed against atheists

Yet we are the only rational voice in a world of those who believe in urban legends and mythology such as a virgin can give birth from an celestial being called the "holy spirit"

that every human being must have two sets of genes to survive as a human being is beyond the capacity to question.

Simply, it is best to set aside all of the known rules of science in favor of fantasy, myth and total ignorance of what truth is.

It is fine that one must , in order to live comfortably, ascribe to these myths

some of us do not--some of us cannot

some of us are aware of all the grief that is caused by adhering to a religious belief that is bigoted and that seeks to impose itself upon the resto of the world

How many--how many have been killed, murdered, self suicided, because of a religious belief that sanctions the notion that it's beliefs are superior to another's beliefs

really, history shows that barbarism accompanies religious beliefs

there is no progressive religious beliefs because most religions are political--the spiritual stuff that is spewed out, is for the beneift of the little guy who puts his dollar into th collection basket each Sunday.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

144. That's all I have to say:

Intelligence, not divinity, is a noble achievement
God. Religion. Elders enticing novices. It's sad.
Always believing in God overrides thought.

[absyntheNsugar]

148. I'm a Christian and a candidate being an athiest would be plus in my book

yes...we need an objective viewpoint when it comes to government. Christianity is a BIG bias. An officeholder can overcome that bias, but it would be much easier to not have the bias in the first place.

[Moderator]

150. Locking

too many PAs