Pledge poll

[ButterflyBlood]

I am Christian, and I want the "under God" taken out for a variety of reasons, most importantly being the stupid reason it was put in in the first place, so I actually am rather annoyed at all the fundies whining about how this is "government enforced atheism" and all such nonsense, I've even heard some compare this to North Korea and China, which is so stupid it doesn't even deserve a rebuking. I'm wondering how many Christians and non-atheists/agnostics agree with me.

[DrWeird]

1. Change it to "Allah akbar."

And then see how many people like it.

[camero]

2. Go back to the original

The phrase "under God" was added in 1950(I think) so the pledge is not actually the real pledge as it stands now. I'm a Christian by the way.

[rustydog]

50. It was added by congressional action in 1954

at the urging of the Knights of Columbus.
www.history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

[texastoast]

3. Other

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x441955#442047

I just don't give a #$% one way or the other. The pledge is just a custom. Say it or don't. Say it "under God" or don't.

I think our First Amendment implies "Freedom FROM speech" (keep your mouth shut). And in my view, fundies are going to continue to say "under God" no matter the ruling. Bunch of wasted taxpayer money.

[Rowdyboy]

4. Good point, Tex

I agree 100%. I don't give a #$% one way or another. Say it, don't say it, whatever. Just get past it and vote correctly.

[cheezus]

9. This sets a precident

that pretty much gives the wingnut congress the right to slip in bits of God all over the place.

[rucky]

10. Yeah, next thing ya know it'll be on our currency!

oh.

nevermind.

[sybylla]

57. Yeah, its not like the Democratic party is the party of minority rights

Who cares what 20% of the population thinks? Who cares if they are offended? They're just a stinking minority that needs to go back where they came from.

</sarcasm>

History has demonstrated over and over again that if you give conservative wackjobs an inch, they will take a mile. This current battle may have started 50 years ago with the pledge and the change in motto to "in god we trust", but it has moved on to decalogs in public buildings, prayer in school, government sponsored faith-based social programs, defense of marriage and more. It speaks to a general attitude in this country towards legislating discrimination. One small cankerous law all by itself is most likely not a big deal. But 5? 17? 42? How many can we tolerate? How many should we tolerate?

If we don't fight them, who will?

[texastoast]

61. Alright, but let's fight fair

If we gotta go down with "under God," let's just get God into EVERYTHING then. Although I don't really think this is the result the fundies want.

Pledge - "One nation, under God"
Paper money - "In Allah we trust"
Quarters - "In Buddha we trust"
Dimes - "In the Goddess we trust"
Nickels - "In the Great Spirit we trust"
Pennies - "In Yaweh (Jehovah?) we trust"

And now for school. This probably won't please the winger-dingers either, though.

Monday for Muslims (bring your prayer rug)

Tuesday for Christians (sing "Jesus Loves the Little Children of the World")

Wednesday for Wiccans (dance in a circle )

Thursday for Buddhists (chant until a meditative state and burn incense)

Friday for Jews (a reading from the Torah)

All sporting events are reserved for Native Americans (beat the victory drum and sing to the Spirits of Nature--each spirit gets its own half-time show according to the sport and season)

Atheists don't get a day (unless they go to the Supreme Court again, so they can have whatever makes 'em happy)

Sound like a plan? I think it is bloody fair. IF we have to pray in school, by the Great Mother Goddess, I don't have to pray a Christian prayer. Of course, we could just revert to the Founding Fathers' intention of, dig it, folks, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

Sweet Jesus, what happened to live and let live?

[Jeebo]

5. What about the OTHER points in the pledge?

Why doesn't anybody ever mention those other points? I count six points in the pledge of allegiance (or seven if you count "with liberty and justice for all" as two points). How many of those points are clearly and demonstrably true, and how many are pure government propaganda? And apart from the church-state separation issue, is it proper for the government to be subjecting school children to this daily indoctrination campaign?

POINT 1: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America..." This is a totalitarian-state tactic. I will not "pledge allegiance" to a piece of multi-colored clotch. Neither will I genuflect before, make obeisance to it, or worship it in any other way. Isn't this idolatry?

POINT 2: "...and to the republic for which it stands..." This is one of the two points I agree with. I am a patriotic, loyal American, I do love my country and I have allegiance to it. The country is the reality; the flag is a symbol, merely a piece of cloth.

POINT 3: "...one nation..." This is the other point I agree with. It unquestionably is one nation, but I have some reservations even about this; see point 5.

POINT 4: "...under God..." I could talk at great length about this point, but I'll just say that these two words clearly and unquestionably ARE a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

POINT 5: "...indivisible..." Is the United States REALLY "indivisible"? No, this issue was not settled by the Civil War. All that happened then was that the secessionist states were forced back into the Union literally at gunpoint. The issue of whether those states or any state have the right to leave the Union is a constitutional issue that can only be settled by the courts. Abraham Lincoln was terrified that the courts would address this issue and threatened to arrest some Supreme Court justices at the start of the war to prevent it. After the war, confederate president Jefferson Davis was held in a federal prison for two years awaiting trial for treason before federal officials finally dropped the charges and released him. Why didn't they prosecute him? Because they were terrified that the courts would decide that Jefferson Davis wasn't guilty of treason because he was the president of a FOREIGN country whose member states had exercised their CONSTITUTIONAL right to secede. Until the courts address this issue, the claim in the pledge that the United States is "indivisible" is pure propaganda.

POINT 6: "...with liberty and justice for all." Whether you agree with this point depends on whether you think this phrase is a promotion of the noble goal of "liberty and justice for all" or a claim that this country actually practices those lofty principles. It's clear to me that "liberty and justice" are spread around among people in this country spottily and inconsistently at best.

So, beyond the religious freedom issue, the broader issue to me is the question of whether we should be indoctrinating our school children with a daily campaign of official government propaganda.

How many of the points in the pledge do YOU agree with?

Ron

[LeahMira]

6. Some good points...

POINT 6: "...with liberty and justice for all." Whether you agree with this point depends on whether you think this
phrase is a promotion of the noble goal of "liberty and justice for all" or a claim that this country actually
practices those lofty principles. It's clear to me that "liberty and justice" are spread around among people in this
country spottily and inconsistently at best.

That is one among many good points you make, but I think that any nation "promotes" itself on the basis of its ideals and goals and not on the basis of its "current events.

That said, truthfully... ONLY IN AMERICA!!! Only in America would people get themselves all in a twist about mentioning God or not mentioning God in a civic exercise. Of course you do not mention God in your civic ceremonies! Unless, of course, you live in a theocratic dictatorship of some sort... like Iran.

Would that our government acted in a more just and honest way! We are so NOT "under God!" Poor God must cringe.

[Jeebo]

23. Thank you, LeahMira...

...you made some excellent points too. Thank you for your observations.

Ron

[kath]

8. Actually, the real original, as written by the minister said "with liberty

justice and equality for all", and it didn't include the "under god" bit.

the EQUALITY for all concept was considered too radical, so was scrubbed from the original version.

sickening.

(got this from a thread here yesterday about the pledge)

[strategery blunder]

7. My problem with the pledge is not the words "under God"

It is that people are forced to, or feel forced to, say it in school, even if they do not agree with it.

It SHOULD NOT be recited in school at all. Even if students may technically remain silent, there is intense pressure to go along and say it. Especially in the freeper school I went to.

I personally would not even consider reciting the pledge if it did not include the words "under God," as then it would imply that the state itself is the highest moral authority, which I strongly disagree with.

If I was a Supreme Court justice, I would rule in favor of Newdow, but I would issue my own concurring opinion. I probably would not sign the majority opinion.

[Ms. Toad]

13. Ditto

The pressure is intense, in school or otherwise.

My objections to the pledge are based on my religious beliefs, including a deep belief that God does not take sides when humans are too inept to work things out without resorting to violence. There have been, and I expect there will continue to be, times when I must conscientiously object to the demands of the USA. Pledging allegiance to one particular country (let alone to a piece of cloth) is (for me) dishonest.

Generally I avoid places where the pledge is said, or step out if I happen to need to be in attendance. One job I had, however, required that I be present when the pledge was said on a regular basis. I stood respectfully, with my head bowed. I was asked on several occasions why I was not participating.

As an adult, that is uncomfortable. To place that kind of pressure on a child, on a daily basis, is unconscionable, yet virtually every school in this country does so. Every school policy of which I am aware "permits" a child to opt out of participating, but provides no unobtrusive way to do so. It would take a very strong child, with very strong beliefs to be able to withstand the daily abuse that is invited by this ritual.

I am not happy that my daughter is exposed to this on a daily basis, but she does not yet have a personal faith based objection to saying the pledge. Do we encourage her to refuse to say the pledge based on a faith she does not yet internally feel? Do we encourage her to recite the pledge, with equally little understanding? How is our choice influenced by the fact that she is already likely to be subjected to intolerance because she has two moms, without adding to that burden?

So I agree, the problem is the pledge itself, the hypocrisy of saying the pledge without any real understanding of what it means, the coerced non-thinking way it is imposed on children who are far too young to understand the implications of what they are saying, and a whole host of other things not addressed in the case before the Supremes.

[Jeebo]

20. AMEN, Ms. Toad, to everything you said...

Those are thoughts I have had about the pledge issue too. Thank you for so eloquently articulating them for me. And I SO wish that more people in this country would really THINK about what the words in the pledge really MEAN, as you obviously have.

Ron

[strategery blunder]

30. Welcome to DU!

Enjoy! :bounce: :hi:

Now to more serious matters:

My objections to the pledge are based on my religious beliefs, including a deep belief that God does not take sides when humans are too inept to work things out without resorting to violence. There have been, and I expect there will continue to be, times when I must conscientiously object to the demands of the USA.

This is exactly why I see the problem as mandatory recital, not the words "under God." Even if God does not intervene, I still try to implement His will as taught by Jesus--which the freepers (Rush Limbaugh types) have maliciously distorted. I need to subordinate the state to God. Otherwise, under the pledge, the state is the highest authority, morally as well as legally, and that is a very scary thought.

[Chovexani]

11. "Under God" is the least of my problems with the pledge

I agree, it was put in for a stupid reason to begin with, and I would have no problems with the original pledge if people could say it or not of their own volition.

It's the coercion part that creeps me the fuck out. My best friend is a high school English teacher, bleeding heart commie librul, etc. When they play the pledge over the PA he stays seated and doesn't make his kids recite it. He's gotten like a dozen letters in his file over it.

That's scary. This is supposed to be a democracy. "PLEDGE YOUR ALLEGIEANCE--OR ELSE!" smacks of fascism and everything the founders of this country fought against.

*That's* my problem with it.

[smirkymonkey]

12. I don't believe in the pledge, period.

[The Rock]

14. I think "under God" should be left in...

we can't be wasting our time with petty issues like this. I think since a very FEW of the population doesn't believe in God, they should just say something else then.

It's a waste of taxpayer's money to debate this.

Edit: I'm a Christian. Now, it's offensive to me to take it out because it's MY religion and MY God. I don't know about you guys, but why pander to the very few who don't believe in God?

I find it offensive that people want MY God removed from the pledge. :grr: Also...it doesn't promote religion in the govt. Just because one says "under God" doesn't mean it's favoring Christians or Jews or even Muslims (they all believe in God).

[corporatewhore]

25. i find it offensive that people dont want my goddess in the pledge

see how silly you sound

[The Rock]

38. It's not silly.

It's about my beliefs. Taking "under God" out will be offensive to me.

Now, as the issue stands, why should a very few athiests run this country while most of us are Christians? Why should the athiests tell me what I can and can't say? Now, to avoid controversy, what's better: pleasing a few athiests or pissing off millions of Christians?

To quote William Rehnquist today: The Pledge "doesn't sound anything like a prayer. You can disagree with the phrase 'under God' but that doesn't make it a prayer."

[truthspeaker]

44. why should your belief in God get special treatment?

Christians shouldn't have special rights.

[shimmergal]

54. I'd like to see it come out.

And I'm a Christian. But it's wrong to have it there because it implies that any citizen who doesn't believe in "God" cannot love his or her country. This not only targets atheists but also Hindus, Buddhists, and wiccans, among others.

I'm not even so sure the "God" it's talking about is _my_ God, either. "God" has connotations, if not the denotation, of the old man with a long white beard in the sky. What if "God" is female? Or multiple (as the doctrine of the Trinity states, and then tries to wiggle around)? "Deity" is a more inclusive term, one I always use when I'm trying to talk seriously about religious matters.

As for the intense social pressure--well, I don't feel it personally, and probably never have (although the phrase wasn't in the pledge when I was in grade school.) However, at age thirteen I lived in New Zealand and attended a public school, which opened each morning with a short patriotic-cum-religious exercise. I would stand for "God Save the Queen" but not sing it. No problem there--of course everyone knew I was "the American girl."

Nowdays when the pledge comes up I just don't say or mumble the "under God" part.

I'm not denying that the social pressure can be overwhelming for some kids. I think the phrase should come out. The first amendment is pretty clear about not mixing up religious belief with the realm of politics and government.

[mmonk]

15. Out

It wasn't there originally.

[neverborn]

16. Take it out.

I'm Wiccan, and say take it out.

Oh, and I'm in high school. I don't stand for the pledge, and teachers and students alike have commented. I'm in a hard-line Rep town. It sucks. :(

[Jeebo]

21. Just tell them you don't practice idolatry...

...because that's exactly what flag-worship is. Tell them you won't "pledge allegiance" to a piece of cloth, or to any other inanimate object. And you also won't genuflect before it, make obeisance to it, or worship it in any other way. Learn to communicate with these people at their level.

Ron

[hansberrym]

17. I want the word "Creator" removed from the Declaration, I want

all references to god, the almighty, sovereign of the universe, and anything else that resembles "under god" removed from Memorial and Remonstrance, A Virginia Bill for Religious Freedom, and all other documents from the foundering era by 5:00! demanded O'Brian in a memo no one but Winston Smith would ever read.

And without hesitation Winston began his days work of feeding the great documents or American history to the Memory Hole.



Doesn't anyone read? Have we already become the mindless masses of an Orwell novel?


WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

THE VIRGINIA BILL FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM VIOLATES THE ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. The original Pledge of Allegiance, written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'
The Pledge of Allegiance - A Short History

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. I've got a better idea.

Read The Pledge of Allegiance - A Short History and learn a little about the history of the Pledge, the changes it's undergone, when and why.

Or as an alternative, one could stay uninformed and insult anyone who attempts to elevate the level of discourse beyond sloganeering.

[hansberrym]

34. An even better idea is to learn a LOT of history, that way it will be

preserved no matter how furiously the Ministry of Truth tries to re-write it.


I have read the history of the Pledge and it has been posted many times in these threads. Congress has made changes to the Pledge
before and might make changes again.

The issue in the Supreme Court is whether the words "under god" in the pledge violate the Establishment Clause.

A reading of the history of the Establishment Clause shows that
similar phrases and meanings were used throughout documents directly related to the Establishment Clause (i.e. "Memorial and Remonstrance" and "A VIrgiania Bill For Religious Freedom")

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Nice to see that it is possible to occasionally punch through the bullshit

and find common ground. :thumbsup:

[elperromagico]

18. I always thought Christians objected to idolatry.

Wouldn't pledging allegiance to a flag constitute having another god before the God? This was the same argument I used regarding the Ten Commandments monument in Alabama.

Couldn't these Christians devote their energies to something more significant, such as bringing others to Christ?

[The Rock]

22. Pledging allegiance to the flag isn't saying you have another

god before God. It just means you pledge allegiance to this country's flag. I worship God. I dont' worship the flag. There's a difference.

[elperromagico]

24. Self-delete

[elperromagico]

26. What is salvation, if not a pledge of allegiance to one's god?

[ButterflyBlood]

37. actually, I agree with you

this is one of the many reasons I refuse to say the pledge, with or without "under God". Luckily, the last time it was in class was 10 years ago, when I was in 4th grade. Quite odd in retrospect that my conservative city's schools didn't have the pledge after 4th grade.

[Aquarian_Conspirator]

19. Just change "under god" to...

"Under an amorphous celestial entity"

[Kimber Scott]

27. What about Freedom of Speech?

First, I don't think anyone should be forced to pledge allegiance to anything - flags, gods, countries under gods, or not. But... IF someone WANTS to say the Pledge of Allegiance, he/she should be able to say it any way they see fit.

[The Rock]

39. I agree.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. I can't really answer the poll.

I don't consider myself to be an atheist or an agnostic, but I also don't believe in anything resembling the Judeo/Christian God. I an ideal world I would have the words "under God" removed from the pledge.

In the real world though, I don't see it as a good idea. It is one of the big wedge issues in the so-called culture war, that the RW uses to fire up it's base into a state of hysteria. Attempting to remove those words only plays into their hands, and helps to fire up the RW fundie base.

In the end, it only helps to make them stronger, and to push this country further in the direction of theocracy.

This country has survived with it in the pledge for the last 50 years. There is no need to unnecessarily stir up the passions of the religious right, thereby making them even more powerful.

[dawn]

32. I don't mind it either way...

I'm Buddhist, and just don't really care. I think it's a wedge issue.

[Zero Gravitas]

35. silly

The "Under God" bit was added by Congress for crying out loud! its just pointless posturing. If you think the "under God" phrase is inappropriate then just don't repeat that government mandated phrase.

[The Rock]

40. AMEN TO THAT!

I like your answer! :thumbsup:

[Groosalugg]

41. Agreed.

[Groosalugg]

42. Why would a fellow Christian want to take out "under God?"

That's going against everything you believe in, ButterflyBlood.

As for the phrase "under God," it think it's silly that a few people want to waste taxpayers' money to get that phrase taken out. Geez Louise, people, if you don't like it, don't say it. It's that simple.

I think it should stay in. The main reason is that I'm a Christian. Taking it out would be a slap in the face to me and my beliefs. The phrase isn't a prayer. If you consider that a prayer, then you have some issues. Besides, many people of other religions believe in the same God as I. For example, the Jewish people believe in God as well as the Muslims. If you take it out, not only are you offending Christians, but you're also offending the Jewish and the Muslims.

The bigger issue in dealing with the pledge is that students are forced to say it in schools. Isn't it a freedom of speech to refuse to say it? I would think so.

[truthspeaker]

46. because they don't want to push their religion on others?

How is taking it out of the pledge a "slap in the face" to Christians?

[Groosalugg]

48. How is saying "under God" pushing religion on others?

It's not.

[truthspeaker]

51. saying it isn't, expecting other people to say it is

You asked why any Christian would want it taken out, not why they might say it themselves.

[Ysabel]

60. i don't want god on top...

of me...

yes it is pushing - and sexist too...

[Crowdance]

47. so a slap in your face is a problem, but a slap in mine isn't?

I'd like all of you to acknowledge what I know, which is that the Goddess is responsible for our very existence. This pledge, each time I hear it, slaps me in the face. So, that's OK with you?

I'm just making my point. Really, I think the entire pledge should be banned. It's a ludicrous statement all the way around. Aside from the God part, there is no liberty nor justice for all, and pledging loyalty to a piece of multi-colored cloth is a meaningless action. I pledge my loyalty to the good people of this country, not a fabric symbol.

[Groosalugg]

49. Agreed...

about the part about the Pledge. It is a joke if you ask me. "Liberty and Justice for All" is a joke if you ask me.

But why is it alright for my face to get slapped? Or your's? Where can one get common ground on this issue?

[truthspeaker]

52. HOW IS IT SLAPPING YOUR FACE?

No one wants to add "under no god". No one wants to add "under gods." We just want to restore the Pledge to be neutral with regard to religion, just like the constitution is.

[Crowdance]

55. Common ground would be neutral ground, yes?

Can you genuinely say that you want neutral ground? If so, then you'd have to agree that neutral ground is including NOBODY's religion in the pledge. I am offended that my children must say a pledge to a God in which they do not believe. One nation, indivisible....and then that problematic liberty and justice for all.

Or,maybe we could all pledge an oath to the God on Monday, the Goddess on Tuesday, the Ground of Being on Wednesday, the "Guard" on Thursday...but I fear we'll run out of days.

[ButterflyBlood]

56. Look at the reason it was put in in the first place

a rather stupid one, and one that's basically obsolete now. How does it go against everything I believe in? The Bible says to "go into your closet" when you pray, and Jesus clearly discouraged public shows of religion.

I see keeping it in now more of a slap in the face of God rather than taking it out is a slap in the face of me, simply because that part is as much a sham as "and liberty and justice for all." There is no way we can claim this nation is truly under God when we leave millions without healthcare, homeless, and continue to bomb and send out imperialism over the rest of the world. And then we have the gall to claim to be the most righteous nation in the world. People who put "God bless America" bumper stickers on their car should ask themselves if America deserves it.

As I said above, I refuse to say the pledge with or without "under God", because I consider it a sham either way and a form of idoltary. But there is no reason to keep the "under God" in today.

[Piperay]

43. If they decide to take it out now

it is going to hurt the Democrats in Nov. because they will blame the 'libruls' for it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. I agree it will hurt

But if it is taken out, who do you think the right should blame?

[truthspeaker]

53. they should blame themselves for adding it in the first place

[ButterflyBlood]

59. The Nixon appointee who wrote the 9th Circuit decision

n/t

[Ysabel]

58. i don't always know what i am...

sometimes i'm this and sometimes i'm that - or whatever...

and i want those words taken out...

edit - explanation - for whatever i am or whatever i may be 15 minutes from now - there isn't a place for me to vote in your poll...