Black Clergy Rally Against Gay Marriage

[doubles]

Am I the only DUer who agrees with the Clergy? I find it offensive that the Civil Rights movement is equated to the Gay movement. One struggle is based on discrimination on appearance, skin pigmentation, where after being shipped in slave ships, the individual has to urinate in a separate toilet, unable to vote and whose life is more or less reduced to the lowest common denominator. As much as I empathize with the struggle of homosexuals, how can the gay movement equate their struggle with ours? When a gay man or woman applies for a job, they are not automatically discriminated against as blacks and other minorities are today, all based on appearance.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040323/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage_civil_rights

ATLANTA - More than two dozen black pastors added their voice to the critics of same-sex marriage, attempting to distance the civil rights struggle from the gay rights movement and defending marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

"When the homosexual compares himself to the black community, he doesn't know what suffering is," said the Rev. Clarence James, an African-American studies professor at Temple University.

<snip>

"To equate a lifestyle choice to racism demeans the work of the entire civil rights movement,"

<snip>

[historian]

1. ill agree to a certain extent

but the timing is very suspicious to me - blacks have no reason whatsoever to like repukes or this vicious pig in the white house and are being distracted by this - my opinion for what its worth

[robnycny]

2. Oh, really?

"When a gay man or woman applies for a job, they are not automatically discriminated against as blacks and other minorities are today, all based on appearance?"

Well, I was.

n/t

[doubles]

11. How did they know you were gay, did you tell them?

If you did, that was your decision, and thus your discrimination was based on you volunteering information, not based on appearance.

Please don't tell me based on mannerisms because I have male friends who act feminine but are not gay. I do have black friends who look black and they are ALL black though.

[MadProphetMargin]

13. Ohhhhh, so it's their OWN fault that they're being discriminated against?

What utter, complete tripe.

[dsc]

15. All I can say is that

a whole lot of my fellow high schoolers were sure convinced I was gay and I didn't tell them. It should also be noted that a person who refuses to hire gays is likely to use the stereotypes you just enunciated.

[Scottie72]

18. I think I need so help

picking my jaw off the floor. Should it matter if we tell them or not? We all deserve to be treated equally.

[doubles]

22. My point is blacks do not have that CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!! nt

I am NOT suggesting that Gays have a CHOICE,
in being Gay!

I am saying that Gays have a CHOICE whether or not to tell an employer whether they are Gay or not! Blacks do not have that choice as black discrimination is solely based on appearance!

[MadProphetMargin]

25. Are you suggesting that Gays DO? Are you suggesting that it MATTERS?

Martin Luther King would be SO proud of you, stomping on Gays.

I can hear him in heaven now..."I have a dream that all of God's children (except the homos)....etc, etc.

[Sulldogg]

29. If it is a choice...

it's an entirely different debate and situation.

There are plenty of choices whicha re illegal or have legal ramifications.

[MadProphetMargin]

30. Not at all. Gays, even if they HAVE/HAD a choice, have the right to be

what they are, or wish to be.

If you believe in the 9th amendment, of course.

[Sulldogg]

44. This is going to get flamed

But, bear with me, as I am talking with the assumed premise that being Gay is a choice.

If I wanted to go telling my boss to 'Fuck Off', because I want to say it and see nothing wrong with it, should he not be allowed to use that against me because that's just the way I choose to be?

We punish criminals for their choices.

[MadProphetMargin]

50. Your boss has a reasonable interest, if you tell him to

"fuck off". He has NO such interest in your choice (assuming there is a choice) in personal life style.

This is in NO way analogous to punishing criminals.

[Sulldogg]

56. Remember

This is all under the asusmption homosexuality is a choice.

How do you determine what choices one can make that we area llowed to discriminate against.

[MadProphetMargin]

57. Easy. Does that choice interfere with your life, or the life of a

non-consenting adult, directly? If not, society should butt out.

[Sulldogg]

83. So

Are you saying we shoudl have no laws regarding discrimination, since if someone just refuses to hire African-Americans, since if he comes out and says it in the help wanted ad, it doesn't interfere with anyone's life.

[MadProphetMargin]

87. Um, that WOULD directly affect the people in question.

NEXT!

[Sulldogg]

113. Can you fire anybody?

I mean that 'interferes' with them very directly.

[MadProphetMargin]

116. If you have objective cause. Otherwise, you're gonna get sued...

...and rightfully so.

[Sulldogg]

122. Define objective cause

Workplace nuisance?
Impared others working ability?
Made workplace hostile?
Performed below expectations?


Are any of these objective.

[MadProphetMargin]

129. Sure, provided that the cause of those actions is the action of the

employee in question, and not the other employees' prejudices.

[Sulldogg]

134. Aren't I punishing them

for making a choice to be prejudiced?

I mean if A chooses to be a bigot and B chooses to live in such a manner that offends A's bigotry, why do I punish A for his choice and not B?

[HFishbine]

139. Ah ha!

There we go. No more wasting time here.

[Sulldogg]

143. If..

A is bigotted against racists and B is a racist, who is at fault?

[HFishbine]

144. Bigotry is not a crime

At fault for what?

[Sulldogg]

145. IF I have to fire one

I have to choose one to fire.

[HFishbine]

148. Why?

Why do you have to choose one to fire? Did one of them do something or are you downsizing? You suggested one of them may be "at fault." At fault for what? Why does one of them have to be fired?

[Sulldogg]

149. Listen

The issue is if I hire A, and work is productive, then I hire B and the work environment becomes hostile, I need to let one of them go.

If A doesn't like gays, and B is gay, if I fire B, MPM will say I'm discriminating.

If A doesn't like racists and B is a racist, does he still say that?

My point was, that given being gay is a choice, then the discrimination argument gets a whole lot muddier.

[HFishbine]

150. It's quite clear

It's not a matter of who has what prejudices or beliefs, it's about behavior. You gloss over the possible violative action by saying the work environment "becomes hostile." But how was that hostility manifested? The answer to that question will tell you who should get fired.

It has nothing to do with who holds what views. If the gay guy keyed the bigot's car, he should get fired. If the bigot spit in the gay guy's coke, he should get fired. If they are both guilty, they both get fired. If they are both simply pissed that they have to work with someone they don't like, tough cookies, you keep them both on until one acts in a way that makes the workplace hostile.

You'd like to make it a case of prejudice, but it's not, it's a case of behavior. The violative behavior is punished, regardless of the person's opinions or sexual orientation. It's not muddled at all.

[Sulldogg]

151. Assuming there were no overt acts

And I can't afford to fire both, for productivity reasons, a decision has to be made.

Alone, each would be a functional employee, but together they dilike each other and cause others to feel the tension between them. If I don't have any act that constitutes firing, but for the sake of the office it has to be done, I ahve to choose someone, and according to MPM's logic, I'm discriminating.

[HFishbine]

156. You're still avoiding a key part of your example.

You're trying to insulate the argument completely from any reality of the workplace, suggesting that there was a result without a cause. Nobody did anything, but people reacted anyway seems to be your argument.

You write that together they CAUSE others to feel tension. How do they cause that? There has to have been an action or actions unless you are asking me to accept that this unbearable tension was caused by some extra-sensory stimuli completely absent any events in the physical world.

[Sulldogg]

157. Fine

I'm out

[HFishbine]

161. See ya

I think the point has been made that you would like to set up unrealistic scenarios in order to push an invalid fear of discrimination against opinions, when in fact it is actions that are punished.

[HFishbine]

98. Even easier

Does that choice break the law?

[Sulldogg]

100. We're defining jurisprudence

Your statement is purely circular logic.

[HFishbine]

96. You have a choice

of who to marry too. If you married a white person and your boss flipped out because he doesn't like inter-racial marriage, would that be acceptable?

[doubles]

37. My friend, read the context, I am NOT suggesting that Gays have a CHOICE,

in being Gay!

I am saying that Gays have a CHOICE whether or not to tell an employer whether they are Gay or not! Blacks do not have that choice as black discrimination is solely based on appearance!

[Andy_Stephenson]

40. Why should I have to hide who I am

to work and not be discrimintaed against?

[MadProphetMargin]

43. So, if a mixed Black/White looks White, he should HIDE the fact that

he's Black?

If he DOESN'T hide it, then it is justifiable to disciminate against him?

That seems to be what you're saying.

[doubles]

55. I am not suggesting that anyone hide anything!

Where did I say that?

Stop putting words in my mouth.

The fact is why would anyone volunteer that information in a job interview? I do not volunteer my cultural background when I am interviewing for a job, it is irrelevant!

[MadProphetMargin]

62. Then why are you against Gays struggling for their rights? What makes you

somehow the "proprietor" of the civil rights struggle? What gives you a monopoly on misery?

Maybe you should clue in to one fact here...the same people who want to stomp the rights of Gays, want to stomp YOUR rights, AGAIN.

John Ashcroft, for example, LOVES these clowns:

http://cofcc.org

Not to mention Southern Partisan.

[Sulldogg]

74. Do me a favor

Don't repost the same stuff you've posted elsewhere as a legitimate response to something I said. If you can't speak directly to me, I'd rather not hear it.

All of my posts here have been hypothetical or anecdotal. Concerning the divide between the African-American church community and the Gay community.

I personally think it is more a philosophically lazy trick to immediately presume that all struggles are the same, regardless of dissimilar truths, histories or other things. I am not saying they aren't alike, all I'm saying is it is an easy trap to fall in to assert they are the same and then argue form that point.

[MadProphetMargin]

79. The struggles for human rights ARE the same struggle, troll.

Took ya seriously, until your "confirmed what Black churches are doing" bullshyt.

[Sulldogg]

85. Where

did I talk about "confirmed what Black churches are doing"????

[MadProphetMargin]

90. Correction: Community.

That addressed my concerns over what I believed was happening in the African-American community.

Same-same, as far as this goes.

[Sulldogg]

104. This thread

is about Black ministers getting together and discussing the Gay Marriage debate.

How is stating my anecdotal reasons for why that is happening, doing something wrong, I was merely trying to put my 2 cents into the discussion.

[HFishbine]

107. Maybe you can exercise a little intellectual honesty

by telling us just who is asserting that all struggles are the same? Just who are the people you accuse of pulling a philisophically lazy trick? You must have an example, right? Surely you aren't resorting to some intellectually lazy assumption or unfounded prejudice.

[MadProphetMargin]

112. That would be me. The motives of all these struggles ARE the same...

...to claim the essential civil rights that are supposedly "inalienable" to all mankind.

[HFishbine]

117. The distinction

is you find the similarities in the motives, nobody is saying that the struggles were/are identical.

[MadProphetMargin]

120. Well, obviously the events are different...but the CAUSE is the same.

[doubles]

78. I guess the same way that Jewish people get upset when the HOLOCAUST

is loosely equated to other people's tragedies and struggles!

There are some historical sufferings that are better left alone and not disrespected by using the terms loosely!

I guess black suffering means nothing......

[MadProphetMargin]

84. Heh. Look who's talking about "putting words in peoples' mouths"

I guess black suffering means nothing.....

I guess it might look that way, if you're the "dog in the manger" type.

Incidentally, it doesn't seem to mean much to YOU, as you see no problem with OTHERS being disciminated against.

[doubles]

91. There you go again!!!!

"it doesn't seem to mean much to YOU, as you see no problem with OTHERS being disciminated against"

[MadProphetMargin]

95. Yep. It DOESN'T seem to mean much to you.

[Yemp4734]

158. Guess what buddy

Gays were ACTIVELY sought out and put in camps the just as much as jews were. They even had there own symbol to designate them. (the triangle)

I am pissed at ANY person who dare ignores the people who were put in those camps. Anyone who wants to pretend no other group was put in those camps makes me sick.

I would say gays have been persecuted equally or MORE than Jews, and perhaps any other group.

[dsc]

77. While I don't volunteer it

I am 36 and unmarried it hardly takes the second coming of Columbo to figure out that I might be gay.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

154. Blacks have a choice too

You could paint yourself white. :eyes:

[doubles]

69. Give me a break, where did I stomp on Gays?

I might have more of an argument that you have no respect for the struggle of African Americans from the slave trade to the civil rights movement. I could go as far as to call you a racist for belittling the struggle of African Americans but I would not step to your level!

[MadProphetMargin]

75. You just answered your own question. Somehow, inferring that Gays are

your equal is "belittling" "your" struggle.

[doubles]

88. So only Jewish people have a right not to have their struggle and the

HOLOCAUST "belittled" right?

Or is it that black life isn't worth much?

[MadProphetMargin]

94. Nope. Never said that. Nice try. Please point out where I did.

The Jewish holocaust = Black Slavery in America = Gay bashing = ANY effort, successful or not, to belittle, degrade, enslave, or kill another human, or group of humans over race, creed, or ANY reason, other than that individual's own actions.

So, tell me, Doubles...what's with the sudden fixation on Jews?

[doubles]

125. There you go again.....

"So, tell me, Doubles...what's with the sudden fixation on Jews?"

What, are you hinting that I am anti-semitic now?

It seems the Holocaust is the only struggle where the blood spilled and lives lost is respected. I have seen many times where Jewish people publicly state that the slave trade should not be equated with the Holocaust. I agree with them and more power to them for standing up for respect of the pain and suffering generations past experienced.

It seems blacks can't get that respect though, especially from you!

[MadProphetMargin]

135. Nope. Just wondering why you suddenly feel the need to drag a

THIRD injustice into the equation.

You seem to feel a need to rank the struggle for liberty by how much respective suffering was involved.

Now, perhaps you'd care to explain THIS little piece of drivel:

It seems blacks can't get that respect though, especially from you!

Kindly point out where I have trivialized Blacks, or their ordeal. Because you certainly feel the need to trivialize the ordeal the Gays go through.

[rednek_Liberal]

142. God Dam That Passion movie was fucking GREAT!!

Seriously, though people this is the stupidist debate yet to have graced the annals of this fish-wrapper forum. Does anybody really care who had the best struggle o' mY People. I think it can be said that every culture at one point in time or another has subjugated itself to a authoritarian rule. Whether Romans/Huns, Greeks/Trojans,English/Everyonelse(Especially us Scotts), United States/Africans, ThirdReich/Jews...Blah Blah Blah. The point is not that I have suffered more than any one else, or such and such is more inhumane than blablabla. If we are to continue to be subjugated under the current regime we have to dismiss this petty squabbling and work our votes people.If you do not want your cultures struggles to be belittled than do what ever it takes to bring progress for all human rights back to this great country. I think thats it for now...

[Scottie72]

26. Neither do I

[HFishbine]

93. A hypothetical question

If a company was hiring only by resume and telephone interview; if they did not know or inquire about the race of the applicant, would it be acceptable to you if a black person wasn't hired because the interviewer thought he "sounded black" on the phone and didn't want to hire a black person? The decision wouldn't be based on appearance, so according to you it cannot possibly be discrimination.

Discrimination is not, as you erroneously contend, based solely on appearance. It can also be based on gender, physical handicap, age, religion, and yes, sexuality.

[kiahzero]

111. Doesn't matter

That's a RW talking point, and is easily dismissed - religious discrimination is a matter of civil rights, and that's a "choice" as well.

[robnycny]

23. Yikes.

I am a little surprised by your question.

But yes, the interviewer explained, after a few awkward moments of silence, that I would not be comfortable in their "work environment" because of my perceived homosexuality.

Of course, I hadn't even thought about being gay that day, let alone mentioning it as I sat down for an interview.

Jeez.

[corporatewhore]

46. dupe

[corporatewhore]

49. hmm transgender folk are discriminated against based on their looks

[MadProphetMargin]

3. Crap. I fail to see any difference at all. Two groups, looking for the

promise of America...equal rights & opportunity.

Sounds like a case of dog-in-the-manger, to me.

[Scottie72]

4. Civil rights is not about

who suffered more. Civil rights is about the fight for equality for all citizens.

Hmm Lets go back 50 or so years.. It is not natural for a white man to marry an african american.. it goes against God's law.

The plain fact is that I could very easily go out tonight with my BF and if i don't watch my back I could be beaten or even killed. I could be fired from my job for who I am.

The struggle is always the same... the arguments the conservative use are always the same.. that is where the simularities lie.

[MadProphetMargin]

5. This is the correct answer.

Take a bow.

[Scottie72]

8. Taking a bow....

thank you for your comment.

I am so sick of the who suffered more argument.

[MadProphetMargin]

6. BTW: If you work for the government, you CAN be fired.

Yep. They changed the rules again, while we were all watching the atrocity de jour in Iraq.

[Scottie72]

9. Yes I am well aware of that

Yes I am well aware of that fact. I knew it was too good to last.

[MadProphetMargin]

12. These bigotted snapperheads think their time has come. As for Black

America, guess what? The SAME people who are out to stomp on the Gays are out to stomp on YOU, again.

For example, John Ashcroft thinks the WORLD of THESE clowns:

http://cofcc.org

Not to MENTION Southern Partisan.

Methinks you're pissed at the wrong people.

[historian]

7. well said

[doubles]

153. So why do some Jewish people get upset when the HOLOCAUST

is loosely equated to other people's tragedies and struggles?

It seems the Holocaust is the one struggle where the blood spilled and lives lost is respected. I have seen many times where Jewish people publicly state that the slave trade should not be equated with the Holocaust. More power to them for standing up for respect of the pain and suffering their generations past experienced.

It seems blacks can't get that respect..... from the millions lost in the slave trade to lynchings to not being able to vote the list goes on......

The same way Jewish people do not want the slave trade equated with the Holocaust, I think it is basic respect for African Americans to not have our struggle conveniently used as it is disrespectful for the blood spilled, the millions of lives lost and the principles upon which the movement was based! Sorry, Dr King was not fighting a fight for Gay rights, it was NOT the issue of the day.

This has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism or Gay bashing! This all comes back to the same fight Black people have had all these generations, and that is black blood and life is still not valued.

[Droopy]

10. Isn't the fight for civil rights in the black community

about equality? How is this different? You have a group of people who are being discriminated against because of who they are.

[Sulldogg]

19. Personally

I think the major difference in the African-American community is disbelief that homosexualtiy is an inherent trait. When approached form the nuture aspect (as opposed to Nature), the idea that the struggles are the same is incongruous with the situation.

And, unlike being African-American, it is not necessarily apparent at first sight. And I think that difference is a major sticking point. As Scottie72 brought up inadvertantly, he has to go out WITH his BF for people to know he is gay, whereas African-Americans are profiled from a distance all the time.

[MadProphetMargin]

20. Once again, we come round to the "who suffered more" argument, which

is utterly irrelevant to human rights.

[Sulldogg]

27. Where did I mention

an amount of suffering.

The two points were

1) A portion of people, and a large portion of African-American communities feel homosexuality is more nuture than anture, so it is not an inherent condition and therefor the Gay Marriage issue is more a struggle for the acceptance of a lifestyle not civil rights.

2) African-Americans have no choice but to telegraph the fact that they are African-American, so the discrimination is different.

[MadProphetMargin]

33. No, it's still just discrimination. Still ignorant bullshyt.

[Sulldogg]

47. Good job

That addressed my concerns over what I believed was happening in the African-American community.

Thanks.

[MadProphetMargin]

53. How could I address those concerns? I'm not Black, nor is the Gay issue

restricted to a few Black ministers...nor, of course do most Black people seem to be against Gays.

Now you're just being silly.

[Sulldogg]

58. My post

was about why I thought this was coming out of the Black Churches, so to just ignore the context of that made your comments basically worthless.

ANd when polled, the vast majority of African-American's do not support gay marriage.

[MadProphetMargin]

65. Oh, so you're a troll. Never mind.

[Scottie72]

24. So now

all the violence is somehow justified if my BF and I go out?

So just be going out with my BF or doing anything else that signals that I am gay it justifies the violence and bigotry somehow?

[Sulldogg]

31. WRONG

No where did I ever assert the bigots are justified. What I said was that if you are driving your car, cops don't know you're gay. But when an African-American is, they know he is African-American.

[Scottie72]

41. well

What if I have a nice little equality sticker on my car or a rainbow flag stiker?

[Sulldogg]

52. Those are choices...

Plain and simple, and you have to be willing to take the good with the bad if you do that. But the difference is you CAN be gay, and no one has to know unles you tell them or show them. That just isn't the case with African-Americans.

And no, I'm not saying hide who you are, that lets the bigots win. WHat I am saying is the prevalence of directed discrimination is different, even if the undirected discrimination is just as prevalent.

[foreigncorrespondent]

34. But that is not always the case.

I am not your typical dyke, so unless I kiss my partner in public very passionately, no one will probably realize. However there are many lesbians out there who do fit the stereotype of what a dyke is meant to look like. I am of course referring to the diesel dykes.

It is the same with gay guys. Not all will fit the stereotype of what a gay guy is meant to look like but some do. The ones that do are in very real danger.

A lot of queers have chosen to hide their sexuality, by not fitting the stereotypical looks because they do fear for their lives. So hence a lot are having to hide who they are. That is why so many queers in jobs that are in the public eye, choose to remain closeted. It is because of the reception they would receive from bigots the moment they came out.

I understand that black people can't change their skin color, or Asian people can't change their eyes, etc, but the queer community has been forced to either be out and proud and live in fear, or hide and not ever come out for fear of what could happen. And the queer community isn't getting the support from other minority groups, and we bloody well should be.

It isn't a question of who received the worse kind of treatment or anything. It is about the lack of equality for all in a country that prides itself on its human rights beliefs abroad, yet ignoring the need and danger to many minority groups at home.

[Droopy]

42. Did you CHOOSE to be a lesbian?

I think this gets to the heart of the matter.

[MadProphetMargin]

45. No, it doesn't. That alleged CHOICE is that person's RIGHT, at least

as far as the 9th amendment goes.

[Sulldogg]

61. Please explain

Your interpretation of the ninth ammendment.

If youa re going to bring it up, I want to know exactly what you mean.

[MadProphetMargin]

68. Well, trollboi, take a gander at it yourself:

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed
to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

[Sulldogg]

89. Please

I know the Bill of Rights, and the way I see it, it puts all those powers not enumerated in the constitution to the people. But I would like to see the reasoning you take from that to further your argument. This is all I ask, since our laws are based on the interpretation of this document, and each of us has our own interpretation, I'd simply like to know what yours is.

[MadProphetMargin]

102. Simple. The fact that a Gay person is Gay, "practicing" or not, does not

harm society. Ergo, the government has no right to restrict their lifestyle.

Seems pretty self-evident.

[Sulldogg]

108. I support Affirmative Action

But the courts ruled there was a compelling state interest in racial slanted Law School admissions. I find it very hard to believe that there is a grevious harm commited by having race-blind admissions.

[MadProphetMargin]

114. That's a whole different can o' worms. Best to start a new thread on it.

Or we'll wind up derailing this one completely.

[Sulldogg]

124. Agreed

n/t

[Droopy]

64. It is my assertion that homosexuality is not a choice

I'm straight and I am repulsed at the idea of having sex with another man. That's not something I can choose, it's just the way I am.

[foreigncorrespondent]

70. The WHY ask your question?

And especially how you wrote it. You capped CHOOSE!

Then you proceeded to say "That gets to the heart of the situation."

Don't backtrack on your own words now, buddy! You made your bed, now lie in it!

[Droopy]

76. It gets to the heart of the matter because

Those black religious leaders are saying that homosexuality is a choice. I don't think it is and I was merely trying to make a pioint by asking a person who IS a homosexual. I did not choose my sexuality it just is what it is, I figured it was the same for you.

[foreigncorrespondent]

81. But Droopy!!!!

IT WAS YOU WHO ASKED THE QUESTION IN THIS THREAD!

All you are trying to do is skirt over your responsibility to your very own words!

[Droopy]

92. How is asking you if you chose to be a lesbian offensive?

I told you why it gets to the heart of the matter, maybe I should have been clearer in the post in question, but I figured you'd get it in the context of the original post. I'm not going back on what I said because I fail to see how it is offensive. If more people understood that sexuality is not a choice, we wouldn't be having the problems that we do now.

[foreigncorrespondent]

97. Oh boy!

Haven't you been reading what I have been saying? I have already answered it.

You CAPPED the word CHOOSE! That can be perceived as an attack!

Sometimes it isn't the question you ask, but in fact it is how you ask it that can be taken differently to how you meant it to be taken.

[Droopy]

109. Heavans forbid I emphasise a word to try and get a point across

It's a simple MISUNDERSTANDING. I don't see how emphasizing the word choose takes away from the word's meaning. I'm on your side. Really I am.

[foreigncorrespondent]

115. Then you need to take into account...

...the fact that us queers face this kind of discrimination each and every day of our lives. That when you word something that we see as a rather bigoted right wing fundamentalist question, and then choose to add emphasis to the word choose, that someone with in the queer community will take offence to it.

I have taken offence to it. And I will not forigve you, no matter how much you skirt around your own words.

[Andy_Stephenson]

121. This entire thread

makes me sick...so much so I think I am going to leave DU for the rest of the night. I am feeling quite hopeless today and the last thing I needed was a bunch of Liberals "gay bashing". I am truly disheartened by this turn of events. Yes Bush is the great uniter alright :eyes:

Good night yall.

I need to go take a bath.

[foreigncorrespondent]

126. You hang in there my friend.

Together you and I can make a difference. :)

[MadProphetMargin]

127. Don't let 'em get ya down, GBnC.

Good night.

[foreigncorrespondent]

133. Unfortunately MPM...

...quite a few of us queer DUers who have been here for such a long time, and truly getting tired of having to defend our very lives to people we thought would stand by us.

I so understand GBnC's being so run down and so close to breaking. I have gone through it. My partner is going through it, and may not be back to post on DU again.

People really don't understand how their hatred can really hurt. As if we don't face enough of it out in the real world.

[Droopy]

130. I'm not skirting around my own words

I'm not taking anything that I said back! It's all right there unedited in its original form. That was not a right wing question. That was a simple matter of me asking you directly. How do you expect people to understand homosexuality if such questions aren't asked? There are people ON THIS BOARD who think that your struggles are not relevant to the civil rights movement. I think they are. Would you want these people not to get the message?

[foreigncorrespondent]

136. And you know what?

If the question was aked in a decent way, I would have answered that question without giving it so much as a second thought.

Like I said, sometimes it isn't the question you ask, but it is HOW you ask it, that truly hurts.

[HFishbine]

138. You're misreading him

Say it out loud, "Did you CHOOSE to be a lesbian?" You see his typographical emphasis of "choose" as somehow implying that he thinks sexuality is a choice. He's saying the opposite. He was emphasizing the word because that's where the question turns.

Like this: "Did you MAKE this cake?" (No, you caught me, I bought it.)

"Did you LEARN to love your mother?" (No, I always loved her.)

"Did you CHOOSE to be a lesbian? (No, I always was.)

He's begging for the negative answer in order to make the point that sexuality is innate.

[Droopy]

140. Thank you

[foreigncorrespondent]

146. Excuse me...

...But I have explained quite clearly why I have teken offence to his question.

It is not up to you to tell me I am misreading him, because I have read it over and over again, and I am still taking offence to it.

If people cannot understand that asking that question in what would be a heated thread as it is, and then choosing to put an emphasis on the word choose can be seen as an attack, then there is nothing I can do.

The question was directed at me, and I have taken offence to it.

[HFishbine]

152. I agree

There is nothing to be done. I simply see it Droopy's way. Anybody else justifying your indignation?

[foreigncorrespondent]

54. Tell me bucko!!!!

DID YOU CHOOSE TO BE A HETEROSEXUAL??? DO NOT SKIRT THE ANSWER EITHER!!!


NO I did not choose to be a lesbian. I CHOSE to be a hetersexual while living in denial about who I was.

Get your facts right before attacking!

[Droopy]

59. I wasn't attacking you

I was asking you to make a statement. I don't think homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone make a choice that would lead to so much hardship? Homosexuality is a state of being.

[foreigncorrespondent]

63. Oh BULLSHIT!!!

You attacked by asking such a ridiculous question. And now, you want to try and back track on it. Well no way buddy! No one gets away with asking me THAT question and expects my forgiveness a few minutes later.

I used to respect you, but not anymore!

[Droopy]

67. Please tell me how I attacked you

Because that was not my intent. It is my assertion that it is not a choice and I merely asked you the question to get some confirmation.

[foreigncorrespondent]

73. Just go back and take a look at what you said...

...and how you said it! I am not about to spell it out for you!

[Droopy]

80. I had no intentions of offending or attacking you.

I was merely seeking confirmation.

[foreigncorrespondent]

86. Then you NEED to really think...

...about how asking your question in the way you asked it, can be perceived as an attack. THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE!

Thanks to you, I feel very bloody violated now! You have no idea the damage your words can and will do.

[Droopy]

103. I still don't understand how what I did was offensive

Maybe you thought I was trying to assert the opposite. That your sexuality was a choice. If you asked me if I chose to be the way I am I would not be offended.

[foreigncorrespondent]

106. The I cannot help you.

If you can't see that by capping a word in a question which will always raise an eyebrow with in the queer community, then there is nothing I can do for you.

[Solomon]

14. It's the principles that count. Gays are comparing their struggle with

the civil rights movement because the same principles apply. It doesn't matter who suffered the most.

Everybody knows even if they won't admit it, that the struggle of blacks insures rights for everything under the sun. Why? Because when black people acquire a right previously denied, then the first thing we do is make sure everybody and everything has it.

We should be proud that other peoples can use the example of the civil rights struggle to obtain rights.

The bottom line for me is this: if you have to resort to religious belief as a reason for denying somebody something, then you are out of bounds.

So far, the only argument I'm really hearing against gay marriage is "God" doesn't like it, cause he said so in the bible.

That's not good enough. That's using your "belief" to deny another person's right.

[MadProphetMargin]

17. Far as I know, the only one who said ANYTHING about it in the bible

was that old fraud, Paul of Tarsus.

[Solomon]

36. Paul and all those Black Clergy which is the subject of this thread,

and Bush and everybody else who doesn't like gay marriage. They resort to the bible to explain what the word "marriage" means.

Everybody is saying it. But it can't be supported. Because the bottom line to the anti-gay viewpoint, is "belief".

[MadProphetMargin]

38. Well, they need to keep their beliefs out of MY government.

[Andy_Stephenson]

60. That would be what I call Paul...

a fraud and charlatan.

[MadProphetMargin]

72. Yep. Jesus was barely COLD when that creep tried to pervert everything

Jesus said about tolerance, love, and brotherhood.

[Used and Abused]

155. i'm for gay rights, but I also don't like the comparison to the civil

rights movement. It's just not the same. I do believe its wrong for the government to not grant gay couples the same rights as straight couples. However, the idea that blacks should automatically be on board with the gay movement is wrong. Some of us will be for it, some of us won't. Just like some white people are for it, and some whites are not.

[HFishbine]

16. You must not understand

the Constitution very well if you think that the laws that gave equality to blacks, that are supposed to guarantee equality for all of us, are subject to appearance.

Your view of the civil rights movement is narrow indeed if you don't recognize that the civil rights movement succeeded because it transcended the issue of race and appealed to anyone with a sense of fairness and decency on the basis of universal truths.

Nobody is equating the experience of the gay struggle with the black struggle. Some are equating, rightfully so, the desired goal -- equality.

You are diminishing the accomplishments of those who fought the civil rights battles, if not betraying completely their lessons, by asserting that those victories were only about race. The battles won weren't about amends for past mistreatments, they were about God-given rights codified in law and applied equally to all.

[Sulldogg]

21. BUt as we all know...

'compelling state interests' trump the 14th Ammendment.

[MadProphetMargin]

28. Horse. Shyt.

[Sulldogg]

32. It is the law of the land..... n/t

[MadProphetMargin]

35. It doesn't apply in this case. The State has NO compelling interest

in denying people their rights.

[Sulldogg]

99. I agree

but that doesn't make it true, nor does it make others agree, nor does it make it what the courts will find.

[MadProphetMargin]

105. So, suddenly, it's okay to discriminate legally, if the majority agrees?

[Sulldogg]

119. All I'm saying

is just because we believe it is discrimination, others do not.

If you believe that male-female marriages are a stabilizing factor in society, and you believe that separating child-rearing from marriage like in Scandinavia is bad for society, then you can make an argument for a compelling state interest in not changing the definition of marriage.

[MadProphetMargin]

123. That's nice. George Wallace tried to say the same thing.

Besides, it's not like male-female marriages are stable in this country. The "straight" community's record on marriage is a train wreck. To deny others the right to marry because it might endanger that is the height of hilarity...as well as being morally wrong.

[Andy_Stephenson]

128. My partner and I have been together

almost 18 years...far longer than some of our friends stayed married.

Ciao

[Scottie72]

137. Congradulations!!!!

I want to wish you a very fond congradulations! :toast: on edit speeling

[Sulldogg]

131. Do not associate

the opposition arguments I am putting forward with my beliefs.

I am merely looking at what is being said and coming up with counterpoints, since only through debate do we strengthen our positions.

And even if you disagree with it, that argument can be put forward in good faith, and if accepted does provide a compelling state interest.

[Terran]

39. I have another issue with this matter:

"When the homosexual compares himself to the black community, he doesn't know what suffering is," said the Rev. Clarence James, an African-American studies professor at Temple University.

This pronouncement is insulting to all Black Gays and Lesbians. "Professor" James needs badly to school himself on this issue. In case he didn't know, not all Gays and Lesbian are white. This sort of ignorance is unfortunately common among the Black clergy, and they pass this stupidity onto their communities. Which, IMO, accounts for the alleged homophobia of the African-American community as a whole.

[Solomon]

71. You can take out the word "alleged" in your post. The African

American community is definitely homophobic. In addition to the nonsense quoted from the bible, there's added to it, an acute sense of the loss of "manliness" in the black community.

It has always been a problem throughout history. First we were physically prevented from being a "man". Chained up and whipped, having to watch your women taken advantage of.

Then we went through the stage when our women could get better jobs than the men.

In today's times, the "War on Drugs" has literally devastated the black male community. There's a feeling that the incarceration serves a second purpose, that of "feminizing" black males.

African American homophobia comes from a deep urge to empower black males. To create stronger families, role models for kids, etc.
Thus, the gay agenda seems anathema to black clergy and others.
The fact that they can point to something in the bible, makes it much worser.

[Andy_Stephenson]

82. So my thread earlier is salient to this discussion...

after reading many comments from puported "Liberals"...I really don't stand a chance. Fair weather liberals...will stand up for the rights of everyone except those sick fags...They are lower than low. So when they come for us...ya'll wont make too much of a fuss...Just enuf to look legtimate. Are these people PNAC plants or what? :shrug:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1274652&mesg_id=1274652

[MadProphetMargin]

110. This is the correct answer. Either you are FOR human rights, in total, or

you are not.

If you wish to make legal exceptions based on personal distaste, then you are no better than Lester Maddox.

[Terran]

101. Solomon

By your words I'm assuming you are African-American. Yet you seem to be speaking for the entire population of African-Americans, the "community," as you say. I would have thought you would know better than that. To say that "the African-American community" is homophobic is absurd on its face. We're talking about almost 30 million people. Some are, some aren't. My personal experience says that Blacks are LESS homophobic than than whites, but since that's my own experience, I don't claim that as definite truth.

[Solomon]

132. I am African American. And I will tell you. Intellectually, the black

community is homophobic. Does that mean we sneer at gays, or treat gays differently, no. But there is an acute need in the black community to empower black males. Always has been.

Now what this means is at just the time when the black community is weeping and wailing over the plight of black males and what to do about it, making it more acceptable to be gay is not exactly welcomed.

I don't care if you believe I speak for thirty million people or not. I'm just telling you the reasons for the homophobia that is clearly being noticed by others.

After all, I'm black myself, but not homophobic myself. Then again, I stopped going to church every week though too.

[Andy_Stephenson]

48. Perhaps I should just slit my wrists now...

and put myself out of YOUR misery.

:shrug:

[foreigncorrespondent]

51. Doubles, I hate to tell you, but...

...the fight for gay rights is a civil rights battle. Because regardless, if a group of people are missing their basic civil rights, then guess what? The moment they begin fighting for it, it becomes a civil rights battle.

BTW the lack of equality for every single person in a country should tell you that there is infact a civil rights battle going on.

[kiahzero]

66. Civil rights are civil rights

I hope those "leaders" equally condemn the Supreme Court decision, Loving v. Virginia.

Of course they won't, because they're fundie hypocrites, but somehow they get a pass because they're black.

[corporatewhore]

118. What is different is that it is socially acceptable to be homophobic

[dsc]

141. Rights aren't rights if they can be taken away for any or no reason

Things the government or private people can take away from you are called priviledges. The fact is that even if being gay is a choice, it is a choice that hurts no one. It is no more rational or fair for employers to refuse to hire gays than it is for them to refuse to hire people of a different race or a different religion. Bottom line if I don't have rights then you don't either. We both end up having priviledges.

[QC]

147. While we undesirables sit around and argue over who is the biggest victim

the Right busily makes its plans to destroy us all.

[Karenina]

162. the Right busily makes its plans to destroy us all....

Tiny edit: change "makes" to "IMPLEMENTS" and I think we have a winner.
:sigh:

[QC]

163. You're quite right.

But we don't have time to worry about that. We're too busy sitting around debating what should be the exact hierarchy of victimizations.

[gator_in_Ontario]

159. You know who my heart goes out to?

I read through this thread, and I believe dirk touched on this:
How would you feel if you were a black GLBT reading this? Just imagine how much that would hurt. There are many blacks in our (gay)community.
And to all of the straight blacks out there who don't recognize this a a struggle for the liberation of all of us: (for the most part) the right wing doesn't like you, they never will, and they will crush you just as willingly as they will attempt to crush us.

[DennisReveni]

160. doubles

Most of the replies will be knee jerk liberalism.
Gay Marriage does NOT equate with the Civil Rights movement.
All the protections they seek can be covered with a legal document.
Something Blacks could not achieve pre-civil rights.
But on principle Blacks should NOT support a constitutional amendment.
Finally where is the anger at Bill Clinton for signing Defense of Marriage? He did open the door for the Bushistas and their unholy crusade.

[Andy_Stephenson]

165. "where is the anger at Bill Clinton "

I got the anger...right here!

[QC]

167. Equality under the law = "knee jerk liberalism."

Gee, where have I heard that sentiment before?

[QC]

164. Doubles, no one has said that the black experience is exactly the same

as the gay experience. No one. No two things are exactly alike.

This is a straw man argument, part of a deliberate strategy by the Republicans to use sexuality as a wedge issue to split the Democratic base apart.

These preachers--and you--seem to have taken the bait.

[xchrom]

166. you are apparently unaware that gay people have been

beaten, fired, denied housing and just about every thing else you can think of including castration in their attempts to live in this heterosexual world.
unlike other minority groups -- we have had to live our live in rather isolated circumstances, i.e. we don't usually have gay mommy's and daddy's, nieces and nephews, etc to tell our tales of woe to thereby creating legacy. we have to WORK like hell to create those legacy's and document them.
i can tell you from personal experience i have been held at gun point by blacks and white because of my sexual orientation and it wasn't a matter of me telling any one they came looking for gay folk to bash and found me.
most gay men i know of a certain age have similar stories.
and perhaps you miss reading in the newspapers the plight of high school gay kids and the hazing they have to live with.
i've also been fired from a job for being gay -- at a time when i had no one to tell.
so cry me a fuckin river -- this is a matter of civil rights and people may not like the similarities between the rights of ethnic minorities and gay people but they are there as surely as the air you breathe.

[Djinn]

168. So in that vein

"I am saying that Gays have a CHOICE whether or not to tell an employer whether they are Gay or not! Blacks do not have that choice as black discrimination is solely based on appearance!"

So it’d be OK-dokey if I refused to hire anyone who believed in God – I mean it THEIR choice to tell me that isn’t it??? And it’s CERTAINLY a lifestyle choice unlike being gay you certainly chose which religion to belong to – can I say to people “sorry but by telling me you believe in God you’re exposing your ability to be swayed by myth, your predisposition to judging others and your abdication of human responsibility. Sorry this position is for atheist and agnosts only BYEEEE???

You'd be fine with that discrimination coz after all they didn't HAVE to tell me they were religious?