Let's address the pathology behind this Nader hatred....

[DerekG]

Disclaimer: This is NOT about the November election--and for the record, I support (and donate to) Dennis Kucinich.


There is a resonant scene in a decidely mixed film from the 80's--Ridley Scott's Legend--that contains a bit of dialogue which reminds me of the vitriol that is spewed toward Ralph Nader on this website:

"The dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity."

The connotation of this quote is part and parcel to the pathology lurking beneath this growing hostility to Nader. Perhaps Michael Moore was correct when he wrote in "Stupid White Men" that Nader brings out self-loathing among those who once harbored Nader's ideals but later chose to live as the vaunted realist. Does any conservative Democrat (Lieberman or Gephardt, for example) draw the same degree of scorn as Nader--the man who played a large role in the passage of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act, the Wholesome Meat Act, the Clean Air Act, the Freedom of Information Act?


Several months ago, we learned of an incident in which Ralph Nader was hit with a pie at a public meeting. A good number of DUers, of course, laughed their asses off. In fact, there are a few posters who use the image of the creamed man as an avatar. Like John Claggart of Melville's Billy Bud, these DUers took pleasure in the thought of the virtuous man being so utterly humiliated.

And yet, had Bill Clinton been targeted in such a manner, these same DUers would have reacted to the incident with outrage--as if it were comparable to China's rape of Tibet. The man who presided over a sea of devastation in Iraq and Columbia would have garnered as much sympathy as Nader had drawn scorn.

Can Nader's quixotic quest for the White House explain the level of hostility around here, or is there something far deeper going on with some DUers?

As for myself, this trend has proved to be quite a learning experience: right-wingers aren't the only ones who enjoy crucifying their country's prophets.


P.S. Consider one other thing: the aforementioned quote from Legend was spoken by the film's villain--Lord Darkness.

[a_random_joel]

1. Two words:

Bush elected.

Next question.

[H2O Man]

23. It's not just that Nader cost Gore the election.

It's what my good friend a_random_joel says: he got bush elected. And we are paying severe consequences. Now he may do more than hurt Kerry; he may ruin many peoples' lives. We are not so stupid that we need noble Ralph to enlighten us. No, Kerry is not the Second Coming, (or the First, if you will); no, the system is not running great as is. But we need to stop the thinking that a great Tarzan figure will lead us to salvation. That's the GREAT lesson of Dr. Dean!! Get everyone involved. That's what Rev. Sharpton is preaching! We need to invest in the system, and take it over. To borrow from one of my favorite quotes from the '60s, we need to elect Kerry and a democratic congress, and let them know that we're all going to sit down to this American feast in the land of plenty .... being a waiter doesn't mean we're included in the feast ... sitting down to an empty plate doesn't cut it, either. So we're going to take part in this meal, or we're gonna kick the legs out from under the table. That's democracy, that old-fashioned kind.

[JackDragna]

62. Let's make something abundantly clear..

..Ralph Nader did NOT cost Gore the election. No one is entitled to votes from anyone. Gore ran a very poor campaign, performing only so-so in the debates and running some pretty bland political ads. He would have won, save for Florida, where the Republicans played some dirty pool.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

82. Sorry but that doesn't wash.

Unless you're naive enough to think the votes for Nader would have gone to Bush.

In addition defend this statement by Nader. "There's no difference between Al Gore and GW Bush."

[dpbrown]

81. Two Words: Gore won

And he got more votes than any Democratic Presidential nominee in the history of the nation. And he got more than five times more than Kennedy beat Nixon with.

Nader didn't cost Gore the election - Bush did.

Bush, and his PNAC sociopathic nutball government-hating corporation-coddling regular people denigrating nutball Republican Party hacks - James Baker, who's now defending the Saudis against the victims of 9-11.

We are being victimized by the corporate media, and it doesn't help at all when people don't think but just regurgitate back up what the media shoved down our throats.

[noiretextatique]

2. i think it's something deeper

for example...the disenfranchisement. when i hear someone say "nader cost gore the white house, blah, blah, blah" i ask if the florida disenfranchisement scheme contributed to gore's "loss."
the disenfranchisement is severely underplayed by die-hard nader-haters, btw. yeah...something else.

[lancdem]

10. Nader was a factor, and any attempt to deny that is foolish

He made Florida close to enough so Jeb could steal it.

[noiretextatique]

40. um...the disenfranshisement scam happened BEFORE the election

:eyes: but maybe those nice republicans just would have let the winner really win...if it hadn't been for nader :eyes:
the problem in this race: nobody, not even democrats, gave a damn about black people being disenfranshised. the republicans can always count on enough of that in both parties...see Nov 2004 for another example.

[loyalsister]

44. Everytime someone mentions FLA

I say what about New Hampshire. Nader was a factor in NH.

[noiretextatique]

47. was disenfranchisement a factor in NH also?

it seems to me that democrats should be more concerned about the disenfranchisement in florida...that's why i always mention it. i believe it was the deciding factor in florida.

[Robin Hood]

57. What about Nader telling lies

like there is no difference between the parties.

[loyalsister]

86. Not that I know of

It was close enough that Nader made the difference, though.
The point was that Gore would have won with NH. Nader made a very very big difference.
I agree that the disenfranchisment is a major issue that has gone unadressed. The fact is, in 2000 Nader's presense brought the election close enough for those evil measures to have maximum effectiveness. I hope that people ignore him this time. Most people I know, including a number of former supporters see him for the egomaniac he has become.

[Bucky]

50. Ralph's running as an indy so that the Green's nominate a 4th drain on us

Nader justified his run in 2000 by saying we needed to have 3rd party choice as opposed to the Dem-Rep "duopoly". Perhaps now he feels like we need a 4th choice away from the Dem-Rep-Green "triopoly". He thinking seems to be screwed up on this. But probably he's just attempting to maximize the drain on the Democrats and ensure a GOP win in November. That's what Grover Nordquist is paying him for, after all.

At least Republicans act on their beliefs. They say "we hate welfare" and "we love God and big bidness" and then they run ON those issues. Nader runs on one set of issues, but does so in a way to ensure that the side opposing his side will win the election. And why is that?

Your guess is as good as mine. I would think that he's wanting to use the Republicans to push the system to the breaking point--then a "real" environmentalist government can come in, with Nader in the lead of course. But that's just a guess and may be giving Nader too much credit for strategic thinking. More likely he really thinks what he says and is only dangerously naive.

Hate Ralph? Not me. I don't hate that easy. But I detest his actions and I'm not all that amused with his hypocricy when it comes to how he runs his public interest organizations. I think Gore deserves more of the blame for 2000 than Ralph, but Gore had the good sense to bow out this year at let a new generation step forth. This is the last time you'll ever hear me refer to John "Keith Richards" Kerry as a new generation... enjoy the moment.

More than anything else, I'm ABB. I want Bush out of office. Ralph makes that job harder. So does Karl Rove, but dammit Ralph should know better.

[David Dunham]

3. Nader is against the Democratic Party, the party DUers support.

[KG]

4. it's some kind of psychosis.

fortunately, it's treatable when the affected open their eyes to the truth. :)

[aquart]

17. Truth? HAH!

The truth is Ralphie wasn't getting enough attention. And I do loathe that man.

[KG]

20. and - the usual well thought out response i've come to expect.

validating my analysis. thanks for playing! :)

[1monster]

27. I've never weighed in on Nader and don't hate him, BUT,

he comes across as an arrogant, sanctimonius, holier-than-thou prig.

In his youth, he seemed man of passionate sincerity who lived his ideals. I rermember reading an article about him that said he lived simply within his $15,000 a year pay (not bad pay for that time, but certainly not princely).

Today, the passion sounds more like contempt than idalism, but I believe many still see in their minds the young and apparently idealistic consumer advocate crusader...

[avb7]

5. I don't hate Nader but....

no matter how you slice the pie he is the reason that the boy prince is in the white house. Nader can deny and rationalize all he wants and the facts do not change. NO Nader=NO Bush!!!! That's why he generates so much ill will. You can back anyone you care to back but take heed of the consequences. If Nader draws votes from Kerry in key states and causes the dimwit to win the state, you and all Nader voters will have to live with it. A protest vote in this election is worse than no vote at all. If you can't live with the choice between the texas theocrat and Kerry please, for the sake of the nation, stay home in November.

[lancdem]

6. This post is hysterically funny

Clinton won two elections for president. Nader got less than 3 percent of the vote in 2000. Like they're comparable in any way, shape or form. Of course, throwing a pie at a sitting president is worse. No shit.

Nader a prophet? That has to be one of most assinine statements I've heard yet. Almost all of his former supporters - liberals and progressives, BTW - have abandoned the guy, but I guess you must've missed that.

[Offshore Bush]

7. Re:

"Ridley Scott's Legend"

For the record, Ridley Scott is one of my five favorite filmmakers still active in Hollywood. I haven't seen legend though.

"Does any conservative Democrat (Lieberman or Gephardt, for example) draw the same degree of scorn as Nader--the man who played a large role in the passage of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act, the Wholesome Meat Act, the Clean Air Act, the Freedom of Information Act?"

Gephardt isn't conservative. Industrial unions don't endorse conservatives.

Here's why I hate Ralph Nader:
1. The Green Party (yes, I know he just injected himself into it and all that) has negative connotations for me and for most Americans. Last election I was unemployed for 2 months prior to it and 3 months after. I really couldn't give two shits about what some college kids cared about the plants. I wanted a job. OK, you can argue that labor rights and environmental protection are connected and so on; but when you have to eat one meal a day because you can't find a job the last thing you want to hear is about how much the plants are suffering.
2. He cost Al Gore the election. Mind you, Al Gore and Joe Lieberman weren't exactly the ideal executive duo; but I think we all know the effects of what Nader has done.
3. I hate his supporters. Most of them seem to be a bit aloof. Maybe that's because they tend to be upper class and upper middle class youngsters who aren't really affected by Bush's destruction of the system of progressive taxation to benefit the rich or by any other crazy shit he's done. Maybe they should get off the marihuana and face reality.


There you go. Flame away, buddy.

[DerekG]

16. I won't flame, but you do prove one thing....

Again, your choice of words validates Michael Moore's reasoning.

You cite "upper class and upper middle class youngsters" and "college kids" as Nader's prime supporters. In a nutshell, you extend rancor to the particular facet of ourselves that represents idealism and hope.

Your argument, by the way, could be reversed. It is the rich who still support the Democratic Party because they haven't suffered as did those who are appalled by both parties. I doubt celebrities such as Barbara Streisand, Cher, and Martin Sheen have been affected by Clinton's attack on the Welfare State--hence, they have more hope that the Democratic Party represents change.

P.S. I don't flame.

[sangha]

30. Talk about a lack of empathy

For many people, those kids represent a selfishness bred from luxury. Not everyone sees things the same way you do.

[Offshore Bush]

34. Thanks.

I can't put my finger on what they represent, but I don't like it.

[DerekG]

35. I know, I know...

All this talk about universal health care, attacking corporate privatization, environmental legislation...

Those little monsters...little Trojan Horses, all of 'em!

[sangha]

56. From kids with health care paid by the corps that employ their dads

.

[Sparkly]

76. I'm confused

Wait a minute... "Upper class youth" represents idealism and hope? So what does lower-class youth represent? And do you really believe the people who've suffered most are the most likely to support Nader?

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something you've posted.

[mitchum]

39. Ahhh, but...

doesn't the support of Nader by his privileged supporters allow them to appear "progressive" while not really endangering their portfolios and trust funds? Having daddy's cake and eating it too?

[mike_c]

24. you need a reality check....

I'm one Nader supporter who is decidedly not "some college kid" or "youngster" (alas), although I do in fact give a rat's buttocks about the environment, which you seem not to. That's ok-- you're entitled.

Nader has consistently done a better job of representing my views than most democrats in recent memory, including the big dawg.

Now back to my marijuana....

[Beacho]

45. represents you?

"Nader has consistently done a better job of representing my views than most democrats in recent memory, including the big dawg."


In what capacity? What office has he held? I haven't seen him do jack shit except to promote himself the last twenty odd years.


I'd really like to know what he's accomplished since the early seventies.

[mdmc]

75. Mike_C! With your bad self on a string...

Oh, I hope you dont live in a swing state and vote for Nader!

[Woodstock]

8. Hatred? Prophet? Get real.

How about, we are just telling Nader to get his ass out of the way of us taking back our country. 4 more years of Bush is not an option to some of us, sorry to disappoint you, that's all there is to it. No hatred. Contempt, yes. As an environmentalist, I can't abide by the fact that Nader said Gore = Bush on the environment. I feel contempt that he played the spoiler in the 2000 elections (and yes, I think he did, along with a lot of statisticians out there.) I think Nader is a fool, and a dangerous one at that, but do I hate him? No. And you say Nader is a "prophet"? What do you think this is, Lord of the Rings, or something? This is the most important election in the history of our nation, and Nader is poised to play spoiler (in a recent Pennsylvania poll, Kerry beat Bush in a two way, but lost with Nader in the mix.) Some of us don't want to let that happen. End of story.

[MadProphetMargin]

9. WHAT virtuous man? Are you smoking crack?

"Several months ago, we learned of an incident in which Ralph Nader was hit with a pie at a public meeting. A good number of DUers, of course, laughed their asses off. In fact, there are a few posters who use the image of the creamed man as an avatar. Like John Claggart of Melville's Billy Bud, these DUers took pleasure in the thought of the virtuous man being so utterly humiliated."

This bastard Nader is the man responsible for Bush being in the Whitehouse. Whatever good he did in the past cannot excuse this fact.

He hasn't got HALF the kicking around that he deserves.

[lancdem]

12. Do you think maybe one of these days

Mr. Virtuous will releases his tax returns like every other presidential candidate?

[MadProphetMargin]

15. Who cares?

He's an asshole. EOS.

[roguevalley]

13. It amazes me that Ralph, whom I supported through college and after

for 32 years in his public research groups, has somehow
attained among some infallability. Everyone else can be
virtuous and wrong but Ralph. Good grief. The idea that
he can't be wrong here, that he can't be acting out of
some sort of twisted ego-crusade fixation himself is as
bad as people saying the bible is infallable.

Either the world was created in seven days or it wasn't.
Either Ralph can ACTUALLY BE WRONG or he's Jesus. Make
up your mind.

Is he a part of the fallable human race or not? Psychosis.

Puh-lease.

[sangha]

31. Well, he is a prophet, after all.

.

[Gman]

11. Nader is the ENEMY supported, aided and abetted by the GOP

Nader is a no good son of a bitch, sorry ass MF bastard who is about as valuable to liberalism as pond scum, regardless of the fact that he IS pond scum.

And Gephardt and Lieberman supporters are NOT conservative. What a foolish thing to say.

[carpetbagger]

14. Follow this logic...

Nader said there's no substantial difference between the two parties.

For the last four years, Bush has waged war against the Clean Air Act, against FOIA, against Endangered Spp, against wetlands protection, against consumer safety, against everything that Ralph Nader used to support.

Now Nader offers up the proposition that you and I should vote for him, even though that vote would not allow us to make an impact on who will run the federal government in the next four years.

I can't come up with any other conclusion than the one that goes Ralph Nader no longer cares about the things that propelled him to get where he is today.

Voting for Nader won't get you any of the things you want.

[Fozzledick]

18. Nader campaigned AGAINST Al Gore in 2000

He didn't campaign against George Bush.

He didn't campaign FOR the Green Party, as he originally claimed he intended to.

He deliberately went to swing states and campaigned specifically AGAINST Al Gore instead.

Whether or not he actually affected the outcome of the election (I personally believe that Jeb Bush was determined to rig the vote count in Florida no matter how many scores of thousands of votes Al Gore actually won by) he chose to campaign specifically AGAINST the Democratic candidate.:mad:

[SoCalDem]

19. Lets's not

Been there , done that :P

[Killarney]

21. Two more words

Fuck Nader.

[MrPrax]

22. Might be a simplier explanantion...

I was reading:

Cowboy Nation Gets Ready to Vote
By GREG MOSES

This jumps out...
"Our embattled way of life is indeed at war with the world. Bush is right about that. But he is only our most recent cowboy-in-chief, pushing the frontiers, shredding the treaties, and sending in the cavalry to secure the outposts.

So, of course, Americans feel more comfortable with Bush than Kerry when it comes to handling an international crisis and protecting the country from a terrorist attack.

On three questions Bush tops the charts absolutely. Seventy five percent believe Bush has a vision for the country. Seventy eight percent believe that we would have a good economy today were it not for the disruption of the massacre of Sept. 11.

And 75 percent of Americans believe Bush shares the moral values most Americans try to live by.

So the poll numbers demonstrate that Kerry and Bush are placeholders in a cowboy nation that is nearly 80 percent unified."
http://www.counterpunch.org/moses03192004.html

There you have it...if the Republican and Democratic parties appear to be no-different, it is because their 'supporters' are the same.

This 'monolith' of citizenry congeals around the same grabbag of 'attitudes' and are much more interested in protecting the status quo--

Nader brings up political issues; political issues are secondary as the name of the game is control, winning is irrelevent.

The whole ABB schtick is simply to give supporters a motivation to 'show up' to vote and thereby annointing another demonstration of national unity.

[Woodstock]

25. How condescending can you get

Lumping the progressives on this board - and elsewhere - who feel contempt for Nader in with fools who think Bush is anything but a dangerous con man is ludicrous. As is your implication that Kerry = Bush.

Not only how condescending, but how utterly foolish.

[dsc]

26. If he actually gave a damn about this nation

he would have run, or endorsed a candidate, in the primaries. He didn't. He didn't, because he doesn't really give a damn about the issues he claims to give a damn about. When Bush stole an election where was Ralph? In CT telling us to flip a coin. When Bush wanted to poison our water where was Ralph? No where to be found. When California passed DOMA in 1998 where was Ralph? Out calling in gonadal politics. Those are just some of the reasons I hate Nader.

[Beacho]

28. Ralph and Grover

So I wonder if the money funneling scheme, through some bullshit 'web project', set up by Grover Norquist to send slush money to Ralphie has begun operation.

[sendero]

29. the "pathology" behind this Nader hatred...

... is the same as the "pathology" behind hatred of Bush*. In Bush's case, it is Bush* himself, and in Nader's case, it is Nader himself.

I don't give a shit what his political views are (I happen to agree with 95% of them), he's a liar and a backstabber. I don't ally myself with people of no character. He can go to hell.

"No difference between the parties" - still standing by that one? If so, check your pulse you might be brain dead.

[struggle4progress]

32. I haven't followed Nader closely in recent years

and cannot address his motives in this and the last election. Of course, anyone who wants another party must begin at the local level; a direct national bid is probably tilting at windmills.

Did Nader really cost us the last election? I don't know what would have happened had he not run. But the last election involved a number of factors:

1. Gore allowed himself to be portrayed as a stiff and as a liar. The media, through laziness or design, collaborated in this. I still think he's a good guy.

2. I'm not sure what Lieberman brought to the ticket. In ordinary times, when there is the possibility of compromise, he might have brought in moderates. I think he hurt us in 00, not least because he also ran again for the Senate, which suggested he thought the ticket a loser.

3. Dirty tricks in Florida were real. More expected this time.

4. The public has been deeply divided since Vietnam. It was obvious the 00 election would be a photo finish. I expected it to end up in the House.

5. It sounds like a joke, but I've wondered if the Republicans didn't put the drunk driving info into the hands of the smalltime Democratic who released it right before the election, with the deliberate aim of collecting the drunk driving vote. Late on election night, a clerk in a small store bragged to me that he had voted for Bush because he was disgusted by the Democrats negative campaigning on that issue; none of the campaign stuff I saw ever mentioned it.

I wish RN weren't running, but I can't see how beating up on him will get any votes. I'm just a hobbyist, so I could be wrong, but I think this is best thought of as a contest between * and JK, and that RN is just a distraction. I really wish things weren't as they are, but ...

[Sinistrous]

33. The loathing of Nader stems from our passionate desire to get rid of bush.

We realize that getting rid of the bush junta is utterly imperative. So when an egocentric blowhard like Ralph Nader steps up and tries to repeat his disastrous meddling of four years ago, for no reason other than to stroke his monumental ego, he, very justifiably, becomes an object of our scorn, vituperation, and hatred.

If you want to find the mother-lode of psycho-pathology, just look at the quintessential poseur, Ralph Nader.

[Arkana]

36. Hate commenting on Nader

I really hate to comment on Ralph Nader. I really do. I have mixed feelings about the guy.

Sure, he's really a radical leftist. He's willing to pursue issues the Democratic Party might not for fear of political sensitivity. But I have a serious gripe with him jumping into the election just because his overinflated ego wouldn't allow otherwise.

As for him throwing the election, there's a saying from John Nichols' excellent book, "Jews for Buchanan:"

"Even if Nader put Bush in the zone, it was Katherine Harris who moved the target so that Bush could hit it."

[ulysses]

37. here's the deal:

out of all the conceivable factors in how the 2000 election wound up, Nader is the only one really available to ordinary folks like us. Faceless cops blocking roads to polling places, or faceless flunkies dumping votes into the sea? Who do you blame? A biased Supreme Court? Sure, but even Scalia is beyond our reach, ensconsed in his high office. Corporations paid by the state to rid voter lists of as many minorities as they can? Right, it's a fricking corporation. Katherine Harris? No supporters handy on DU, and it's not as if she's listening anyway.

Ah, but Nader. There's a target we can all sink our teeth into and, at least vicariously, sense the pain. That he represents, in some sense anyway, the left only increases the flavor for some.

[mitchum]

38. How about the pathology of the Nader apologist?

Ralph Nader is not the presumptive nominee of the Democratic Party. He is an opposition candidate. How fucking hard is that for you to understand?
My apologies for not referencing some puerile sword and sorcery movie in this post

[DisgustiPatriotiated]

41. Nader a prophet? Oh please!

He's running against the Democratic nominee so he's just as much the opposition as Bush is.

If it were not for him we wouldn't have bush. End of story.

[ParanoidPat]

42. ROFLMAO! "crucifying their country's prophets."???

:crazy: If 'St. Ralph' really was such a 'prophet' ya think he might have left the race at the last minute knowing he had 0 chance of winning and thrown his support behind Al 'Earth in the Balance' Gore instead of painting him as being "no different than Bush*"? :shrug:

So, you drink a lot of Kool Aid or is there something deeper going on in your post? Just what part of the rape of the environment did you miss over the last 3+ years? Prophet? :puke:

You have the balls to bitch about people who think it's funny that he got hit with a pie when if not for his massive ego perhaps thousands of innocent civilians might not have died over Bush*'s lies?

[MadProphetMargin]

43. This is the correct answer.

Pretty much sums it up.

[ParanoidPat]

80. Karma's a bitch! Funny how Derek can whine about 'Nader bashers'.....

.....on DU in this thread and then ask for our help AVOIDING THE BUSH* DRAFT in this one! LOL! :evilgrin:

[mitchum]

88. Thanks! That confirmed my assumption

not that I'm an ageist or anything, but...

[Borgnine]

46. Look at this way....

If you don't vote for Kerry in 2004, you may never get the chance to vote for Nader in 2008.

Democracy is on the line here. Kerry certainly isn't my ideal candidate, but the Bush Administration is the greatest threat to this nation we've ever had. This could be the last election ever.

Choose wisely.

[mike1963]

48. You answered your own proposition with one word: "quixotic"

And that is the key principle. I personally have no serious dislike for Nader; I appreciate much if not most of what he has done, generally, but this election is a watershed one unlike any previous one...moreso even than 2000.

Nobody has yet to explain to me how casting a vote for someone with no chance of victory and which works to the favor of the GOP is useful in getting rid of the incipient fascism we face.

Perhaps you can be the first.

[DerekG]

69. I don't support Nader's campaign...

I support Dennis Kucinich.

I'm addressing the fact that Nader receives more vitriol around here than Bush.

[mitchum]

87. No he doesn't

That is absurd and untrue

[Skittles]

49. LOL !!!!

you're comparing NADER and CLINTON ???? Lordy.

[SOS]

51. Re:

"right-wingers aren't the only ones who enjoy crucifying their country's prophets."

Reactionary and/or right-wing elements were responsible for (or lurking in the background in) the murders of Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, John Kennedy, Gandhi, Patrice Lumumba, Walther Reuther, Friedrich Adler, Medgar Evers, James Meredith, Archbishop Romero, Benigno Aquino, Olaf Palme, Anwar Sadat and Yitzhak Rabin.... to name just a few.

These murders can't be compared with Ralph's cream pie incident .

[Guava Jelly]

52. screw Nader

he can eat my balls.
All he is doing is helping bush!!!
the funny thing is that the retard wanted 30,000 by st paddys day and he only raised 15,000..thats funny to me.

If you vote for nader you are helping bush period!!!!!!

[kaitykaity]

53. The fact that Nader never copped to his role in the 2000 fiasco.

He denied it, blamed the weak Gore campaign, the Supreme Court, blah, blah, blah. Nader got his ideas out there, but when the money moment came and he could have bowed out in the swing states and told his supporters to go to Gore, WE WOULDN'T FUCKING BE IN THIS FUCKING MESS. RALPH NADER CAN KISS MY COTTAGE CHEESE ASS.

[RichM]

60. What is a "cottage cheese ass?"

I never heard this expression before.

[kaitykaity]

65. ever seen a woman who has cellulite on her butt?

that.

[RichM]

54. DU's Nader psychosis is just a highly-visible symptom of the ignorance

of bourgeois Americans. The world-view of Americans is basically what they're told in high school, reinforced by constant exposure to corporate media. This kind of passively-acquired background produces indoctrinated individuals, crippled in the area of independent political thought.

There are 2 permitted political disciplines in the US, with only modest differences separating them. The partisans of both sides regard politics much as sports fans regard football - it's a matter of rooting for your team, & hating its opponents. Nader is seen by Democrats as someone who criticizes their team, & perhaps contributes to its losses. So blaming him for Democratic losses is irresistible (especially for a party that lies to itself as easily as Democrats do). In any case, blaming Nader is a far more attractive option than performing a good honest self-examination - something most Democrats do not have the courage or integrity to do.

One must remember that the Democratic Party is currently in a state of extraordinary panic and confusion. Its supporters can hardly be expected to behave rationally, at such a time - and they don't.

[kaitykaity]

55. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[LividLiberal]

64. ditto

what sanctimonious bull crap

[ashling]

67. Your delusions about prophets

make intresting reading, but like Nader's campaigns are rooted in academia, not real life. For Nader's existence in this campaign (and I mean the one that started 4 years ago) to be valid, you have to accept the premise that
1)there is no difference between the parties,
2)a president Gore/Kerry will be no more valuable to this country
than a president Bush

You are both wrong on both counts. The differences in the parties is obvious.

The Democratic Party is not without its flaws and blemishes. However, if the whole party was to the right of Atilla the Hun, it would still be to the left of Bush.

If you are unable to see what has happened to this country since Bush was erroneously placed in power, you are deluded.

For the sake of courtesy, I will assume that it is a sincere delusion. However, an assessment of Nader's actions and statements could lead a rational person to conclude that he has some sort of messianic complex and wants to see the country in ruin so that he can become its savior. PLEASE, spare me!

An academic discussion of many of the issues in which Nader professes to believe would be valuable. However, the time for academics has passed. This is the real thing. Despite whatever his illusions of grandeur tell him, he is not going to uplift this campaign with his platitudes. He is only mucking it up for the rest of us....for the country.

:dem:

[SendTheGOPPacking]

77. Oh brother

:eyes:

[mitchum]

89. Self righteous nonsense

[Onlooker]

58. There's a big difference between Nader and Kucinich

Nader fights for primarily middle class issues. He's never been on forefront of civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, the struggle for affirmative action, efforts to pass anti-discrimination laws, worker's rights, etc. On most of those issues, he pays lip service, but that's all. I do not regard him as a progressive, because his issues have little to do with the struggle of victims of economic, racial, and sexual prejudice. If your issue is airbags and the environment, then he's a good person, but he's pretty much managed to erase everything he's accomplished by helping Bush get into the White House. And let's remember, he targeted Florida in the hope of keeping Gore out. One could even argue he's a nihilist, in which case you couldn't even call him progressive.

[union_maid]

59. It's not psychosis, it's cause and effect

If I had any respect left for Nader after what he did in 2000, it would have been destroyed by his "Don't blame me" whining. He's the main thing standing between us and getting rid of Bush in November according to current polls. Lives depend on it. Quality of life for millions of others depend on it. He doesn't give a shit. That man has less compassion than a "compassionate conservative". Of course, I hate him. What I find hard to understand is anyone having a hard time understanding that.

[mdmc]

61. The Democratic Party is Dying

and it pisses me off. I love Nader, but can explain the hatred of him. Democrats hate that our party is dying; we blame Nader.

[JackDragna]

63. Blame the party at large..

..not Nader. The Democratic party runs pro-death penalty, pro-war candidates and is surprised when they lose the liberal base.

[Sparkly]

68. I'm liberal

and the last thing I want is for Bush to get four more years. The LAST thing. How about you?

[mike1963]

66. Pathology? Lessee, vote for Nader, he loses and America loses.

Vote for Nader again, he loses again and America loses again. Repeating the same thing expecting a different result is one clear symptom of insanity. 'nuff said.
:grr:

[G_j]

70. pathology

anyone who thinks someone (besides Jeb, Scalia or Diebold) can "take" votes from anyone is simply wrong. It's as if Nader was barging into voting booths and forcing people to vote for him at gun point. Hello? People do what they choose, and do it of their own free will. Nader never "took" a single vote from anyone. In case some folks forgot, this is what democracy looks like. So is there a problem with the concept of democracy? Well guess who else has a problem with democracy? Yep, you guessed it, the BFEE. And guess who else calls people "traitors"?

The real-life activists and progressives I know and work with are people who genuinely walk their talk, who get out and fight for their community, for their world. Almost to a person they will be voting for Kerry, but I haven't spoken to single one of them who doesn't find the Nader hating pathological and utterly depressing.
This is supposed to be a fucking Democracy!

Get out and convince people to vote for Kerry or against Bush, however you think you can get through to them. Respectfully argue why you don't think Nader is a realistic option right now. Calling people traitors and enemies is incredibly childish and just alienates people.

[Sparkly]

71. Well let's have six, eight, ten candidates against Bush!

Let's get a whole gaggle of candidates against Bush! More democracy, right? Nobody taking votes from anybody, right? And the EFFECT would be... well, that doesn't matter, right?

Same principle.

[G_j]

72. so you have a better system? n/t

[Sparkly]

73. Not a better system

but a better way of weighing options and outcomes and making responsible decisions on how to use the system we've got. There's probably one overriding reason Kucinich, Mosely-Braun, Sharpton, Edwards, Dean, Clark, Gephardt, Lieberman, and Graham chose not to run independently, certainly one reason I'm thankful none did -- and it's the same reason Nader's run is unfortunate at best. He is in effect *harming* the very causes he claims to champion.

[G_j]

79. I can't argue with that

It's just that it's his right to run. Democracy can be messy. The only way to deal with it is to convince people to vote otherwise. People have tried to talk Nader out of running, but it didn't work. There is not much else to do but to get out there and try to make a case for voting Kerry/dumping Bush.
I was able to make a convincing argument to someone who was going to abstain from voting, by explaining that all other issues aside, the environment alone is enough reason to vote for Kerry. Even if it saves one endangered species, one old growth stand, one river, it's worth a vote.
They saw my point and agreed, they will be voting.
One thing I know, if I jumped down their throat and said they just wanted four more years of Bush, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

[peacetalksforall]

74. Mine is a lack of repect that borders on contempt....

of a former hero...

....because he did not have the foresight to see what would happen if Bush were elected (or he was a shill (paid off) for the closeness of the vote and messing with the vote).

....and.....because facts I believe make me think he morphed into a serious hypocrite.

Analyze me.

[SendTheGOPPacking]

78. Nader helps Bush and deserves to be treated as such.

And give me a break - he is not a prophet! He's an egotistical prick!

[Lorne]

83. Nader is an egotistical asshole.

He screwed Gore out of the election in 2000. If people didn't vote for that waste of a human being, Gore would be in the White House.

And Nader isn't a prophet. What makes you say that? He's no better than the Republicans. Prophet my ass.

Nader has NO chance of winning the presidency. Why does he run? He's out to screw the Democrats, that's why. Why else would he do it?

[corporatewhore]

84. why more nader hatred than harris hatred is what i want to know

[Borgnine]

91. We've already got the Harris hatred out of our systems 4 years ago.

Harris isn't going to be a major factor in this campaign, but Nader is, and right now, he's the primary roadblock between getting Bush out of office and the formation of The Bush Empire.

[NightTrain]

85. Alas, you're wasting your time.

As far as these people are concerned, Ralph Nader is the devil incarnate. You can talk reasonably and intelligently until you're blue in the face, but their blind devotion to the Democratic party is too intense for anyone to break through.

These people have become everything they once disdained. They fucking well know it too, but they'll never admit it out loud. And if anyone attempts to point out to them that they've sold out, they'll counterattack with everything in their extensive arsenal of bile. Personally, I find these folks both pathetic and unworthy of my time.

[Borgnine]

92. Give me a break.

This has nothing to do with party loyalty. Personally, I don't consider myself a Democrat. I'm a liberal, first and foremost. As a liberal, I know that the Bush Administration is the greatest danger to the progressive cause this country has ever faced. The goal is to get these bastards out of the White House, and unfortunately, Kerry is our only chance to do that. But you know what? Kerry is a million times more progressive than these facists are, and once we get him into power, then we can worry about getting him to fight for our causes.

Liberalism itself is on the line this November. Cheney won't be tolerating it any longer if they're empowered with four (at least) more years.

[DerekG]

90. PLEASE, let's end this...

Although I meant every word I typed, I just came to the realization that most of my threads from the past couple months--though I never sought to attack anyone (just a specific view)--have served no positive purpose. A much longer mea culpa and reasoning is found in my other thread ("Prison/Draft" post #24), but I'd just like to say I'm sorry. I'm an asshole for starting this; I probably haven't treaded on any ground that hasn't been covered before. My world-view has darkened considerably. I've gotta leave for a couple weeks, do something that is beneficial for someone, and I'll come back when my spirits have been raised.

Please, just let this thread die. If you want to insult me or tell me I'm wrong, just send me a private e-mail.

Thank you.