Is People For Change the new Lucianne.com?

[mot78]

Yesterday there was a big flame war over a little site filled with Dean supporters who used to, or still post on DU. The point of the flame war was that PFC does nothing but bash Kerry and allows Freepers to post for the sake of attacking him. If we're going to have a flame war over this, I hope it doesn't make PFC the new Lucianne.com, which was a fission of a bunch of ex-Freepers who got tired of RimJob.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. No they aren't.

They do, however, claim to promote free speech but label people who post outside the echo chamber as "trolls" on their posts.

They consider this to be more fair than the manner in which dissenting Du'ers are treated.

[JohnKleeb]

10. a label of shame?

:shrug: I cant explain, my opinion on PFC, they do have a right to their site but I really think they could warm up to Kerry. I was no fan of Dean but I was willing to warm up to him. I am impressed by what he is saying now. Also I saw someone labled as a Kerry bot over there. I dont know what that means but I myself would never take the time to make a fourm that ridicules supporters of another democrat. Just my opinion. I would for Bush of course.

[mitchum]

31. I have also seen DU labeled as "idiots" over there..,

and that certain DU posters must "be blowing Skinner"
But what do you expect?

[JohnKleeb]

48. didnt see that mitch

I really think they should devout their energies to other things other than knocking Kerry. :shrug: I can tell you as a person who admits to being no fan of Dean or Clark, a victory by either wouldnt inspire me to make a website that bashes them, you bet i would be disappointed but I would be supporting.

[Bandit]

2. It is my opinion that those who say they are Deany boppers and are

bashing Senator Kerry are/were nothing more than freepers in disguise anyway. They certainly are not Democrats.

[comsymp]

20. Finally!!!

I've asked this question ad nauseum over the past few years here and nobody's been able to provide a sensible answer- and since you're apparently able to discern the elusive distinctions maybe you can help.

What, exactly, is a "Democrat?" I'd really appreciate any clarification you could provide.

thx in advance
-cs

[struggle4progress]

45. "I belong to no organized political party ...

I'm a Democrat"

-- Will Rogers

[Mairead]

50. *snicker*

Good luck. :evilgrin:

[struggle4progress]

85. Well, exactly ...

The Rogers quote seemed appropriate response to the odd question "What is a Democrat?" especially considering the general infighting in this particular thread.

<edit: nuance>

[foreigncorrespondent]

25. Well in that case...

...us queers can say the same damn thing about people present here at DU who do not support our right to marriage. Or to people here that tell us to sit on the back of the bus and just to shut and and wait, because now is not a good time. "These people who do not stand by us certainly are not democrats, only freepers trying to split the dem party in two."

In your eyes, what the hell makes a democrat? I would really like to know, because one day, if marriage becomes legal, then Sappho and I will most likely marry. We will most likely settle in the United States. I will become a citizen of that country so I can vote. I certainly will be researching parties so I can become a card carrying member of the party which best reflects my own concerns. So tell me, what the hell makes a democrat?

And for the record, no I am not a member of People for Change.

[Forosuul]

74. Well, you should be

:D

No one at PFC will tell you to sit on the back of the bus, speak only when spoken to, or stay in the closet.

And hey, if they do, you can tell them to fuck off without worrying about stupid alerts and warnings.

:D

[fishnfla]

3. Oh shit, not this again...

again, the place is like a 2 man circle jerk, let them have it.

[Catholic Sensation]

4. P4C people aren't bad people

with the exception of Scott Lee who spends so much time over there, I'm pretty sure he hasn't bathed in months (kind of like 99% of Free Republic's members, the 1% who bathe are the DUers who signed up to troll on their board).

Ignoring the hysterical attitudes when someone brings up stuff like the mismanagement of campaign funds, P4C is a decent forum with decent people.

[Atlant]

8. Is that really the best argument you can make? Are you proud of it?

Is that really the best argument you can make? Are you proud of it? Do you
think it shows Democratic Underground in a good light?

(Just checking)

Atlant

[Catholic Sensation]

9. is posting the question in the subject in the body of the post necessary?

is the posting the question in the subject in the body of the post necessary?


let me answer the questions in the subject

1. i could make some other arguments
2. yes


now let me answer the questions in the body of the post:

1. i could make some other arguments
2. yes
3. do you think i care? (you have a 50/50 shot at this one)

(just answering)

Neo Progressive

[NoPasaran]

5. Is that a flamethrower in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?

It's funny, I post here, I post over there. I'm a Dean guy who is really trying to support Kerry. I even sent the guy a donation last night.

I just plain do not care to be labled a Freeper, m'kay?

[calimary]

66. I LIKE what you just said, No Pasaran.

I'm not over there as much as I am here, I am still a Dean supporter, but I'm also supporting Kerry because, LOOK, LET'S GET REAL. IT TURNS OUT HE'S THE GUY. What the heck am I supposed to do? Defect to bush? Vote for Nader? I still like Dean. Especially lately. HE certainly has not been a divisive element in this campaign, having thrown his support to Kerry, and sticking up for him in a TERRIFIC way in the "foreign leaders" mess (he said Kerry was right to keep the names secret, to protect them from the bushies because the bushies have proven themselves to be vindictive. Anybody who has heard ANYTHING about the Valerie Plame affair should know Dean's correct on that). And I, too, just sent Kerry money.

SO THERE. And believe me, I am NO FREEPER. I think my record, here, there, and everywhere, speaks to that, quite sufficiently.

[Catholic Sensation]

6. if any forum other than FR is worthy of derision it's AmericanForums.net

they're shit with an idiot administrator and racist libetarians running the show.

[Atlant]

7. Check it out for yourself...

www.peopleforchange.net/forums

Atlant

[paulk]

32. I did check it out

thanks for the link.

Here's what I found:

"just how badly the deck was stacked against us and Dean, or the putrid stench of the rise of John Kerry who only offers a different flavor of fascism. " - code name D


To answer the question asked at the start of this thread - Yes, PFC is the new Lucienne.com. And I've got better things to do with my blood pressure...

[slinkerwink]

11. Just fucking stop trying to do a flame war or a turf war

This post is a disservice to DU.

[mot78]

18. The post wasn't intended to be a flame war

I was wondering what people thought. Personally, I feel PFC has a right to have their own forum, but after reading it myself, I don't like the fact that SOME OF THEM attempt to disparage Kerry in almost all of their posts. But I've only read through a few posts over there, and the people who trashed Kerry the most have done it the most out of most DUers anyway.

[Forosuul]

24. Ok

So some people on PFC disparage Kerry at every opportunity. Some people on DU disparage Kucinich or Dean or Edwards ot Clark or whoever.

So what?

What is truly funny is that a number of people here were claiming that the folks on PFC were an echo chamber, yet we then get slammed when we allow people with radical or divergant opinions (such as Scott Lee) to post! I myself posted on the forum that I had to vote for Kerry, if for no other reason than the fact that my nephew will be 18 next year, and I do not want him drafted. Scott, who admittedly and openly despises Kerry, tried to convince me that Kerry would initiate a draft also. I disagreed with him, and neither of us were banned or disciplined in any way. Scott and I also have no hard feelings or bad blood over the debate. Diversity of opinion and tolerance in action, people.

At least two DUers came over and complained bitterly that we had allowed an admitted conservative to post (he was respectful at all times and not in the least disruptive) , yet they too claimed we did not allow any opposing viewpoint. Anyone see the discontinuity? We have far lefties and Greens, we have Moderates, we have Deaniacs and casual Dean supporters, We have DLCers and so far one Republican. Doesn't sound like much of an echo chamber, does it?

The fact is, we welcome all viewpoints. No, we do not allow disruptors. Neither does DU.

No one has been banned from PFC for likeing Kerry or saying good things about him. And no one will. Nor will they be banned for saying bad things about him. Open expression of opinion is both welcome and keenly encouraged on PFC.

Come visit the land of the free, people.

[RetroLounge]

28. "The post wasn't intended to be a flame war"

Does anyone really believe that?

RL

[Forosuul]

44. In mot's defense, Retro

He has registered and posted on PFC, and has been totally cool. He looks to be a valuable addition to PFC.

In a backhanded way, his comparison to Lucianne may have been a compliment. They split off of FR, it is true, but they were also fairly successful, from what I have been able to garner.

[maddezmom]

12. just wish the folks at the site wouldn't rag on DU....

members,admins and moderators here.

[slinkerwink]

13. then my best advice to you would be to stop going to that site

it's not that hard. :shrug: you really can't dictate what other people must do away from DU.

[Pithlet]

15. They can't dictate.

But they are certainly free to make a comment about it.

[maddezmom]

17. didn't dictate anything, nor do I ever

was just a comment of what I wished, nothing more.

[Catholic Sensation]

14. most of the people over there who "rag on DU" are upset they got banned

no matter how obvious the justification for their being tombstoned is

edit: used "their" instead of "there" like an idiot

[Sterling]

19. So don't go there? This is so lame.

I can't believe DU has stooped to the level that they are allowing this reatarded site war to take place here. We look like childish fools.

[RetroLounge]

29. Why would it bother you so much?

You can always NOT go there. Right?

[ulysses]

16. it's a compulsion, isn't it?

Help is available, if you're willing to seek it.

[Exgeneral]

21. That's funny

I think all this bombast indicates that somebody feels threatened. Why post on DU about another website?

Better to think about why they would feel the need to start another website.
:bounce:

[Sterling]

23. It certainly is making DU look weak and scared.

It is also creeping me out that this is allowed to go on here. I had never heard of PFC before and now it is clear to me that DU is undergoing some sort of civil war. It's really imature. I am starting to get the creeps like when I visit Freeperville or some other hate site.

[seaglass]

52. Why post on another website about DU? n/t

[nwstrn]

22. I wasn't there too long before I got banned

but here's what I can tell you:

They're entitled to their anti-DU forum, and I'm entitled to my express my opinion of it. It's a forum of Dean supporters who can't face the reality that their guy lost. They cling to every tidbit of news on Dean, like nerdy grade schoolers gossiping about the "cool kid." They post under DU user names and in DU-titled forums, as if PFC was a special adjunct of DU. They then use these user names and forums to slam DU and Kerry at every opportunity.

They claimed I was the first "troll" they'd ever had, probably to the amusement of the freepers there. Another poster started a thread urging everyone to support progressive Democratic Congressional candidates in the primaries. I made the mistake of asking whom we should give our support to. No answer. So I asked again. "Dean hasn't released his list yet," I was told. Hmm. Another poster told me to research the issue and report back with my findings. Assigning research projects to newbies? I didn't start the thread; I was simply asking for clarification--if we were to support progressive candidates, we should at least have their names. At the urging of the board members to identify a Democratic congressional candidate in a primary whom I supported, I offered Emmanuel Cleaver, the former mayor of Kansas City and a liberal Democrat. Poor Cleaver then got butchered by the posters--so much for forming a coalition. Too bad you can't read the posts, they've been "moved."

After asking if Dean was a progressive, I was called an asshole, asked if I wanted to have my account deleted, and then banned from the site. No, my feelings weren't hurt; it was fun. None of my comments concerning Dean approached anywhere near the animosity PFC posters show towards Kerry or DU.

For laughs, go over and post some glowing statements about Kerry. You'll be treated with the same suspicion that pro-* posters receive here. If PFCers just want to be left alone, why are there PFC banners and links in the very place that they claim to hate?

[foreigncorrespondent]

27. Has it ever occured to you...

...that long standing members of DU who decide to begin another forum which more reflects their own interests, base their forum on DU for the simple reason they like the DU set up? No, I didn't think so.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forosuul]

43. One would think

That since he came to PFC with the sole intent of posting in a disruptive way in order to get banned so he could come to DU and say he got banned, he would be happy that we gave him what he wanted.

No pleasing some people.

[edzontar]

63. You were the most obvious. least imaginative troll in history.

You went there to get banned, and did...after people such as myself tried to be nice to you.

[hexola]

26. P4C just started a new website!

http://www.p4c.dk/


heh...google funny...

[mitchum]

30. I find it very amusing...

but I have a very perverse sense of humor :)

[corporatewhore]

33. Gee maybe they just want a place to talk about progressive issues and not

be called republican plants stupid communists(in a bad way) or wacko leftists fringeists havent posted yet but i lurk alot

[Tinoire]

34. No, but PFC is one place where I know I will find nothing but PROGRESSIVES

And that, to me, is worth GOLD.

It gets a little tiresome going 'round and 'round on this new DU, which has tilted so far to the right, that we have people applauding Bush's actions in Iraq, Haiti & Venezuela.

When I want to be among nothing but progressives, I go to PFC. It feels like the "old" DU where people spend more time discussing and less time arguing with (insert your own word).

[Dookus]

35. and the whole misguided notion behind that

is that somehow Dean and his supporters are progressive while Kerry and his supporters are not.

It's a circle-jerk that is bound to collapse under its own demand for purity.

[Nazgul35]

37. What's funny is...

that I was a progressive before I ever heard of Dean...amd will continue to be one long after he is gone....

And I will still frequent that site, as well as BartCop...another site that was ravaged here at DU not too long ago.....

Seems to be a trend......hmmmmmmmmm.....

I tell you what I miss about DU, before the primary, we sued to post news stories about repug atrocities, debate issues, discuss strategies....not so much now...

The only threads that last long here at all are the ones that cause evryone to go apeshit....while threads started to bring attention to issues of important fly off the pages....

As far as people being banned.....you have to be registered before that can happen....and I invite people to read the threads started by the person above, becuase contrary to what (s)he says, they are still there....they are just banished to a special little forum where troll threads go....kinda like a zoo...

Something DU should consider using...

[Tinoire]

39. No, Not at all

There are some Kerry supporters here (and former Clark supporters) who are total progressives for whom I would crawl, hands and knees, on broken glass but sorry my friend- not all of them.

The Democratic Party's tent may be large enough for SOA/NED apologists but mine just isn't. Like the Rachel Corrie mess, I just don't see myself standing with people who thing her death was either warranted or an "accident".

People like you are A-ok in my book because you think. That's all I want. DU used to do that. Right now, DU is dividing between people who think and people who just regurgitate propaganda.

It has nothing to do with Kerry. Though I personally am not warm to him (because his speeches have me balloting between warm enough and cold), I have respect for those who are warm to him. I just hate shills who see no evil, hear no evil. Once again- you are not one of those.

DU if it keeps going like this will collapse because what made it famous was that it was progressive and left-wing. Nobody hates "just another Moderate Dem" site- that's no threat to the establishment. DU and its progressives are.

As more people swarm here to shut us up or tie us up in meaningless arguments, then the greater the solace of finding a place like PFP where we can spend more time discussing & advancing and less time arguing with (insert your own word here; I've seen some of them in the past- they're all acceptable ;) )

[Tinoire]

49. I don't think the lines are drawn that way Dookus

They seem more drawn between Leftists wanting real, meaningful social change vs Dems content with the party's status quo. I know quite a few Kerry supporters who fit right in idealogically.

[bicentennial_baby]

36. Word

I hear you! :hi:

[foo_bar]

46. it's the leftist xeno's paradox

DU's initial claim to fame was the purgation of conservative opinion (or at least pro-Bush opinion per the membership agreement). For the remaining ~50%, each difference of opinion produced a minority camp declaring itself "leftier than thou" and determining the other 30-49% to be insufficiently liberal (or excessively liberal and insufficiently radical). Not that this is headline news: from the French Revolution to Trotsky's icepick, cannibalization of <<La Gauche>> is the order.

What made a board like DU possible in the first place was the Bush Administration, and a (relatively) united patchwork of interests opposed to it. Instead of exploring infinitely divisible space as is the left's prerogative, here was a coalition of center-to-leftists with a unified pursuit. Even with the disengagement of the Dean, anti-Zionist, and Nader wings, the raison d'etre of dethroning Bush still comprised the biggest piece of the pie (as the primaries demonstrated, despite the faint resemblance to this internet demographic). The problem for DU and the Democrats is the same tightrope act: if they give too much to the splinter factions, the centrist "silent majority" walks away. If they give too little, the splinters take a hike and the plurality is gone. It's a thankless position, one which "broken glass" republicans don't seem to suffer, and I admire Kerry and Skinner for steadily navigating Scylla and Charybdis (shout out to Uly).

[JohnLocke]

61. You earned yourself a bookmark.

[LoZoccolo]

38. And the point of this post is...

:shrug:

[Tinoire]

40. DLC supporters getting scared that they're not controlling the entire game

anymore. Nothing more than that.

[Dookus]

47. that's silly, Tinoire

first off, the whole DLC boogeyman is worn out. Dean was in the DLC, too, you know.

And it's not about being scared. We are, in fact, pretty damned optimistic. We're going to win this year.

[maxanne]

51. in that case

what a bunch of people on some other internet BB do and say should be of no consequence to you.

[Dookus]

87. your logic is appalling

whether we win or lose in November has nothing to do with whether or not we care about people slamming DU, its members, moderators and admins on another site.

I can feel safe and secure believing kerry will win while still believing that the antics on that site are childish and masturbatory.

Any site on which the notorious liar Scott Lee is a leading contributor is a farce.

[jpgray]

41. As a person for change, the energy spent in this thread seems ironic to me

And as a person for change, I should spend less time on THIS message board, let alone join another. Just a thought. :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. Ahhhhh, can't everyone just get along?

Please, pretty please??

:grouphug:

[arissa]

54. I've been watching this whole little episode...

and let me tell you, that site is definitely not the "new lucianne.com." They'd have to actually have a clue and be somewhat successful to qualify for that statement. :)

They start a discussion board which seems to spend most of it's time bashing DU and bitching and moaning about their "unfair" treatment here (which I find hard to believe, DU treats babies like babies, sounds fair to me), and then come over to DU and advertise their site. The irony being, of course, when someone actually posted something BAD about their little circle-jerk site, one of them went crying to the admins demanding that person be censored (and note that they claim the whole reason they started this "other DU" is because of the alleged censorship of the moderators and admins!).

And from the looks of it, they're perfectly happy to censor people whose opinions they don't agree with on THEIR boards. I'd be the last person on earth to fault someone for hesitating with Kerry and considering not voting for him, but sheesh, Dean is outta the race, he ain't gunna be president! Wake up, and grow up, people!

[Forkboy]

55. I see two threads relating to DU

and dozens that dont.Doesn't seem like "most of their time".In fact it seems more like hardly any of their time.

Perhaps you just saw what you wanted to see :shrug:

[maxanne]

56. way to build consensus and coalition

arissa!!

[arissa]

57. That's rich

I think if ya'll were the least bit interested in "consensus and coalition" you wouldn't spend so much time bashing DU and bashing Kerry. Do you even see the irony?

"Hey, let's start a website where we trash DU, then go on DU and complain when people trash us back! Hey, while we're at it, let's post all kinds of anti-Kerry stuff and anti-DU stuff on our boards, and then go on DU and tell them they're not trying to build consensus and coalition! Hey, let's whine and whine about 'censorship' on DU and then ban people who come to our boards that we don't like!"

Consensus and coalition? :eyes:

[Forkboy]

58. Again,there's 2 threads discussing DU

and dozens that dont.Why are you so focused on such a small minority of threads at the exclusion of all the good ones?

How is 2 threads "spending so much time"?

[Forosuul]

59. heh

You're not expecting an answer, are you?

[Forkboy]

60. Not really

seeing as though it was ignored the first time I posted :)

[arissa]

75. Answer

"Why are you so focused on such a small minority of threads at the exclusion of all the good ones?"

These are the top 9 threads in PFC's 2004 campaign forum, with a quote from each one:
*****

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showforum=25

Kerry's on Vacation
" He's on vacation now? Isn't that sort of like taking a month at the ranch in Aug 01?"

Has Lieberman endorsed Kerry? Sharpton? Kucinich?
"Got an email from the Big Dog asking me to support Kerry. That got deleted immediately without even consideration."

Now THIS is funny, Coupla Blogs re Kerry
"Kerry bought the nomination with his mortgage and with dirty tricks. Let him try to buy the Election. "

Kerry not backing Dean has unleashed repuke
"Oh CHRIST, Kerry - you fucking dimwitted asshole - are you so scared of the rightwing that you can't even stomach the truth?? Dean simply repeats what the terrorists in Spain said was the reason for the attacks and there is something wrong with that? What should he have done, Botox? Stand there with a quivering lip like your sorry ass has done and tune out the rest of the world, ignoring reality in favor of that flag on your lapel?

OH MY GOD I CANNOT STAND THIS DICK SUCKING MORON AND I CANNOT BELIEVE HE IS GOING TO BE REPRESENTING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THE COMING ELECTION

PLEASE LORD TELL ME THIS IS A HORRIBLE, SWEATSOAKED DREAM FROM WHICH I WILL SOON AWAKEN! "

Kerry better get control of this fast, VVAW considered assassination of US Sens
"Whoa! This could be huge."

Kerry's Catholic conundrum, by Bill Berkowitz
"Well Scott, I'm no KKKer, but if I suspected that Kerry had "fealty to Rome", I'd be upset too. Fortunately I am convinced that no such fealty exists, because Kerry's opportunism disallows any fealty but to himself."

New Bush Ad Assails Kerry on Iraq Vote
"Bush doesn't have to smear Kerry! All Bush has to do is show Kerry flip-flopping on every issue in order to convince the independents that despite Bush's own flaws, Kerry cannot be trusted."

"Well, apparently Kerry doing okay $$wise, Going on $3 million in 3 days"
I was going to say something simuler. Kerry has been data mining his current donners as well as any other lists he could get his hands on. I bet you he is selling those lists for campain donations. Not to mention a hundred difrent ways to funnule soft money throw small donners. You have have already donated to Kerry, and not even know it. Or to Bush for that matter.
" I think I'll send some Monopoly money to kerry, just so I can do for him what I expect he'll do for me :P "

"Funny money -- about as authentic as the candidate. I like it. Might try to find some myself. Would be worth a couple of bucks at WalMart or KayBee just for the satisfaction."

Some Dems to run away from Kerry, From the Hill...
"Let's see how well this goes down with the Kerry worshipers... "

*****

Are these the "good ones" that you're talking about?

[arissa]

62. You don't have to start a new thread

to bash DU. The bashing seems to be pretty nicely sprinkled over many threads. Deny it all you want, but it was pretty clear from the beginning what the purpose of that website was. Now you're just defensive because, golly gee, maybe people on DU don't like it when DU is bashed.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some of you actually believed that a vast majority of people on DU are seething, disaffected members upset with the "bias" of the people who run the site, and all you'd have to do is start posting over here and the masses would flock to you, DU would be shown the error of its ways, and Skinner would personally beg forgiveness! Actual reality not fitting that warped view, now ya'll are trying to claim you're not out to bash DU. Talk about a 180. I read what was being posted on your site before it become apparent that bashing DU was going to backfire on you.

Here are some fine examples, taken directly from PFC:
*****

"Also, mot, it should be noted that the mass exodus from DU has not just been by Dean folks. Did you watch the last fundrasing drive? They barely made their goal. 6 months ago a DU fundraiser would blow past its goal days in adnvance, but no more. That cannot have been just from disenchanted Deanies, could it?

People have got fed up and left, people of all stripes. Meanwhile, say anything less than worshipful about Will Shitstain and you get alerted faster than you can hit "post". In the old days, Pitt would post, and people would actually discuss what he wrote. Some would criticize and express distaste with his writings. But that is not allowed any more. Now you have to tow the line.

DU is nothing more than FR playing to a different group of small-minded a-holes."

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5656&st=30

oh please don't start that shit. If people wanted to have that senseless arguement they would go to DU.
Dean is not perfect, but he is real. Kerry is an incredible phoney. Even his wife can't stand him.

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5673&st=15

Thank you for the compliment on my post! That place is like toxi waste lately. I try to make a joke about it all, but I have even been locking horns with people who I kind of thought of as friends. :(

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3&st=150

Hey Noelle! This place looks great! I had to get away from...the other place. Freaking intolerable it is.

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3&st=285

Oh that thread was awesome. Kudos to you for being able to stomach those pissy assholes for that long. I mean can you imagine what it's like to have your guy come out on top for the nominee and STILL be that nasty and sour? I'd cut my own head off.

The reason they freaked at your questions is because your line of questioning revealed just how "progressive and liberal" Senor Botox really is. Which aint MUCH. Truth hit them in the face, they didn't like it. Welcome to another day at dull DUh.

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5499

You may criticize Dean to your heart's content. But in case you had not noticed, your Mommy (or Skinner) is not on this forum to protect you from the soul-wrenching horror of a personal attack by someone you've never met on a message board.

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5516&st=15

Kerry is so pathetic. He'll only say this sort of thing behind people's backs.

What a wimp.

And now he says he was talking about Republican "attack dogs". He's a freaking liar too.

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5321

Oh CHRIST, Kerry - you fucking dimwitted asshole - are you so scared of the rightwing that you can't even stomach the truth?? Dean simply repeats what the terrorists in Spain said was the reason for the attacks and there is something wrong with that? What should he have done, Botox? Stand there with a quivering lip like your sorry ass has done and tune out the rest of the world, ignoring reality in favor of that flag on your lapel?

OH MY GOD I CANNOT STAND THIS DICK SUCKING MORON AND I CANNOT BELIEVE HE IS GOING TO BE REPRESENTING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THE COMING ELECTION

PLEASE LORD TELL ME THIS IS A HORRIBLE, SWEATSOAKED DREAM FROM WHICH I WILL SOON AWAKEN!

http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5636

[edzontar]

64. For months, certain folks have been trying to drive people AWAY from DU

THEY are the ones who are most likely to get criticized over there--and you can hardly blame anyone for being pissed by would-be "purgers" and self-appointed ideologial policemen.

What bugs them the most is that people they wanted to get banned on THIS side can post in other places without being pissed on.

Their resulting petulance is pathetic, but also very amusing.

[comsymp]

65. Correction, Ed-

Years, not months- ask some of the oldtimers (either here or at PFC) about TNOTLK. I bet you won't be surprised to hear the players named... well, except for one who's done a remarkable 180 since then and has become something of a lightning rod, himself (hope that doesn't constitute "calling out").

Bottom line: some folks are gonna behave like jerks, no matter what.

In the end, I certainly hope nobody is losing any sleep over this most recent melodrama...

-cs

[edzontar]

68. Correction taken. I have a coupla years in here....but may have missed

Some of that shit.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

76. That dynamic has worked both ways

The lefties want the righties banned and the righties want the lefties banned.

I've seen it play out...however BOTH have been banned not on the content of their thoughts but on the METHOD of their participation.

Nobody could ever accuse Mike Hersch of not being a democrat, but he was disruptive in his participation and got banned.

[Dookus]

88. how do you figure?

I was a Clark supporter. The lies, venom and hate directed at him (and his supporters) was just as bad as anything the Deaniacs had to contend with.

We didn't get our sorry asses banned, and we didn't run away. We stayed. People disagreeing with you is NOT "driving you away". It's disagreeing about who should be the nominee. My guy lost. Your guy lost. I feel no need to bitch and moan about the members here, the admins, the moderators, etc.

It seems only the Deaniacs responded that way.

[Forosuul]

70. Truth

Is an absolute defense. And nothing in those quotes is anything but 100% true.

[arissa]

71. So you admit that the website is just a DU and Kerry bashing

circle-jerk? And that's ok because it is the "truth"?

[Forosuul]

73. Nope

I simply admit that some people there dislike both DU and Kerry, and they are vocal about it. So what? Why is that so surprising?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. You haven't looked hard enough

There are more than two threads bashing DU and plenty of posts bashing various DU'ers.

[Forosuul]

77. So?

Why difference does it make? Why do you even care?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. I was simply pointing out that the number was inaccurate

Why should you care that I do, if it's no big deal to you?

BTW if it's no big deal if they bash DU there...wouldn't it then be no big deal if DU bashes back?

Or is there a double standard in there somewhere?

[Forosuul]

80. I am not complaining about you bashing PFC.

In fact, I appreciate it! We've had a membership surge since you guys started the daily thread about how horrible we are. Every time you respond to a thread like this, it gets kicked and a few more people go to see what the fuss is all about. Most realize that your acidic comments are untrue, and they register and stay.

By all means, keep bashing!!! :D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Fine...works for me too..and tends to clean house here

by all means...keep attracting the Scott Lees of the cyber world...I agree they should have someplace to engage in their psychotic rants where an echo chamber will give them a cyber high five.

[Forosuul]

83. I am sure it would comfort you to believe

That everyone we get is a Scott Lee (not that I find anything wrong with Scott anyway). But frankly, we get the full spectrum.

I wonder, do you clean house with a bulldozer?

[edzontar]

86. I think it is all sour grapes.

A new board emerges, begun as a refuge from Dean bashing... then it develops into a broader effort to provide a forum for people who would like another venue, and these folks go berserk, declaring "war" and calling it a "freeper" site, etc....

It would all be very silly if were not so representative of the take no prisoners, with us or againmst us mentailty that made so many seek this place of refuge in the first place.

Let me add that there is a lot of diversity of opinion at PFC, as it regards DU and Kerry and even, yes, Dean (despite the wailing of our cute little troll).

And by the way, I LIKE Scott Lee, and am GLAD he is able to post on PFC.

[Melinda]

90. Your goal is to divide us further?

I somehow doubt that is what many members there have in mind. So who are you, really?

[Melinda]

67. I'm saddened that so many who originally built DU are now ostracized here.

I don't know many of you in this thread, but I do know that the majority of you were nowhere to be found after the selection of 2000 and the raising of the DU roof (and the same for a select very vocal few on PFC). I looked at PFC for the first time today, and am saddened by the loss of so many "original members" of DU and the very voices that made this site a success. Search Eloriel's posts and then tell me she deserves this bullshit. Do the same with Code_Name_D or AWD or Tinoire and oh so many more...


We were once united against Bush* but now it appears as if we'll settle for eating our own instead. And that *IS* what this thread is about.

Shame.

[edzontar]

69. It is INDEED a shame. And they are called FREEPERS

By people who have been for for a matter of WEEKS or motnhs at months-makes me sick,

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. I agree it's a drag

But I also look at the names over there and see people who I have felt were friends who then began attacking me (I can think of several) once I decided to disagree with them about who should be our nominee.

One other point..not all the names you see over there have stopped posting here..they post both places.

One person you reference in your posts had LONG been a partner with me in combatting racism and misogyny...but then took it personal and called ME a war apologist for supporting someone else....I NEVER took to personal attacks with this person.

People can CLAIM they were alienated but there's a certain point where they might want to do a SOUL CHECK and determine if THEY are the source of their own alienation.

Yes, we used to be united in OUSTING Bush...but many have decided since their chosen nominee was not favored that that mission now takes a back seat to bashing Kerry.

If their mission is no longer OUSTING Bush, then is it NOT antithetical to the mission of DU?

[Melinda]

89. Teena, I know....

The *personal* attacks (and all of them on either side) are against the pale, and I'm so saddened that former *friends* are now alienated... but no one involved in the blood letting of the primary war is blameless. No one.

So how do we fix this? Surely this thread isn't the solution. Would it not be better to try and resolve the issues that divide us as opposed to exacerbating them vis a vis this type thread?

Can we not reach out to one another anymore?

And I KNOW how you were hurt... I'm aware of how close you two were and it hurts me for you and for her; it hurts me for all of us. There must be some way to either fix this or work through it and get past it. There are no winners in a war such as this.

I may not like Senator Kerry's positions or past votes, Teena, but that doesn't automatically mean I won't vote for him, however badly *I* have been treated by *some* of his supporters here... I'm willing to move past and forward, and I'm hopeful that others will let the animosity go as well. We must find that common ground again or we will all lose. We just will.

[FlaGranny]

82. My take on all this

crap is that it is a damned shame that Kerry, Dean, et al, supporters can't show half (or one tenth) the class of the candidates they identify with.

[Forosuul]

84. Amen to that

:)

[Skinner]

91. I think we’ve had enough discussion about this particular issue.

We’ve been following this discussion for a couple days, and it has become clear that this topic is both counterproductive and unnecessary. It seems to me that we are just extending the ugliness and hurt feelings from the primaries, and making any sort of reconciliation impossible. It is disruptive to this message board, and it’s going to stop now.

I have never considered anyone’s web surfing habits to be my business, and I don’t see any reason why a DU member shouldn’t be able to post on any website of their choosing. If PeopleForChange.net is your kind of thing, then by all means post there. I have looked at quite a few threads over there, and it should come as no surprise that I did not find the place to be to my liking. I of course recognized many of the names posting over there -- including many people I like quite a bit. I wish no ill will toward that website and its members, and I hope everyone over there would feel the same way toward this website. Unfortunately, the petty infighting on both websites isn’t good for either site.

So, as the administrator of this website, I’m going to do what I think is necessary to put an end to this little brouhaha. From now on, we will not permit any more discussion threads or posts on the topic of PeopleForChange.net on this message board. We ask that that everyone please remove any mention of PeopleForChange.net from your signature lines on DU. And we ask that members of PeopleForChange.net please do not use our private messaging system or email function to discuss PeopleForChange.net.

No doubt many of you will consider this to be unfair. But I think this solution is both fair and appropriate, considering the fact that discussion of your website is now forbidden here, whereas discussion of DU is almost certain to continue at PeopleForChange.net, either publicly or in your private forum. I do not wish for the members of Democratic Underground to be subject to a torrent of propaganda against this website, when we are no longer allowing people to rebut that propaganda on this site. I am sure you understand. In fact, many members (and even a moderator) from PeopleForChange.net have already asked me to disallow discussion of that website on DU.

Furthermore, I respectfully ask that everyone please refrain from using PeopleForChange.net as a place to organize disruption of Democratic Underground, or to orchestrate other activities on Democratic Underground. It is simply not fair to our members to have groups of people on other websites acting in a coordinated manner on DU. I will do whatever is necessary to insure that the members of Democratic Underground do not engage in this type of group disruption over on your website. In other words, I hope both websites can just live and let live.

I would appreciate it if someone could post this in the private forum over at PeopleForChange.net. Thanks.

Skinner
DU Admin