How to stop the talking point that Iraqi citizens are happier now?

[PoundSiO2]

How can we nullify the reports coming out that the Iraqi people are happy that we freed them of Saddam? We need to keep the message out there that the war was and is wrong and the Iraqi people are worse off.

How can we deflect this news back to the negative onto bush?

[Must_B_Free]

1. Time for a Zot

Freeper Fries coming up!

[PoundSiO2]

30. Here, try some reality

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[Must_B_Free]

52. Your error, honey

you said "How can we nullify the reports coming out that the Iraqi people are happy that we freed them of Saddam?"

Noone wants to nullify those reports. DU is not about finding ways to suppress information because we think it unhelpful - that would be what the Bush administration is about. We want Iraqis to be happy. We are glad Saddam is not in power. He was a tyrant. Does that mean we should go invade any country run by a tyrant?

I personally disagree with the deception of the Bush administration. I don't think we needed to blow up Bhagdad either. I also didn't think we needed to kill 80+ people to get David Koresh.

Your suggestion was meant to tarnish this community. Take a hike and go back to to the "Free" Republic from whence ye came.

[VolcanoJen]

63. That's about as perfect as anyone could state it, Must_B_Free.

Thank you for that.

:-)

[DrWeird]

2. Is that what you think?

Honey, every time a US troop gets killed hundreds of Iraqis come out to celebrate. But you won't see that by watching Fox.

[Teneha]

6. That's right

And you won't see the prez visiting families, and facing the situation he has created.

[PoundSiO2]

8. It was on Dan Rather honey

Hard to watch faux when I don't have cable honey.

[DrWeird]

12. I'm sure they're happy Saddam is gone, sugar.

But that doesn't mean they like us better, since we appointed Saddam in the first place, and we're the ones who blew up their children. That would certainly explain why they've killed 560+ of our troops. Most of whom were after "mission accompiished."

[PoundSiO2]

29. Here you go sugar...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. Since Kerry supports the crusade, if you support Kerry, you should

agree with it, and that they will be even happier with Kerry because he will share the war loot with Old Europe.

[Sulldogg]

Huh?

So if energy is at pre-war levels, and oil is there as well, along with new schools, girls in school and such, we shoudl still argue they are worse off?

[shance]

11. Are you assuming because you say these things are true, we believe you?

What novel are you getting this from?

Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Sulldogg]

17. No, not at all

I just mean, we hear some of this trickling back (not sure any of it is true), but when they bring this up, just stonewalling it like it doesn't exist isn't going to get us any points.

Although I ahve seen a couple tv reports of girls going to school, and I assume at least some of those families are happier now that their children have a much better chance at a future.

[shance]

31. Women and girls are now in far more peril of losing the rights they had

even under Saddams regime.

The name of the US overseer* escapes me, but he has allowed the new Iraqi government to reinstill old religious laws that return women to the laws of being killed justifiably by their husbands for reasons of adultery and other such "crimes".

A media clip and/or photo-op of girls going into a school may comfort us here in America and allow us to continue believing an illusion and propaganda that we have actually "helped" Iraq, but it is the total antithesis of the reality ocurring on their soil.

It is a nightmare for the Iraqi people and for our troops. Quite frankly, its unconscionable.

[Columbia]

32. Nope

The Sharia law resolution was tossed out.

[shance]

45. Please cite your reference on this. I have not heard of it being thrown.

And I do not know if it was called the Sharia resolution.

Please inform us specifically what the resolution said and when it was overruled.

[Columbia]

51. Resolution 137

Constitution Marks New Start for Iraqi Women, Minister Says

http://www.noticias.info/Asp/aspComunicados.asp?nid=20108&src=0

The signing of an Iraqi interim constitution March 8 marks the beginning of a new role for women in the country, according to the only woman member of Iraq's cabinet.

Nasreen Barwari, speaking the same day at a panel discussion, titled "The Role of Women In The Emerging Government and Society of Iraq," honoring International Women's Day in Washington, said the constitution guarantees a "more inclusive system" for women. Iraqi women's task now is to network with each other in order to build strength needed to achieve and sustain equality in national and local decision-making, she said.

Women already have influenced decisions related to the Iraqi Governing Council's Resolution 137, which would have moved family and personal law matters from civil administration to clerical administration under Sharia law, Barwari said. This resolution was retracted under tremendous pressure from women's groups.

[Woodstock]

59. Yes, and George Bush never tells a lie

either. Geesh. Get real. The pressure was by women's groups ON THE US. Once the US is out of the picture, it's a new ballgame.

[Columbia]

61. That's your opinion

And it is mine that women's groups will prevail in Iraq and they will have unprecedented freedom in the ME.

[shance]

65. What are you smoking? What "unprecented freedom" are you dreaming up?

They are barely at square one!!

I have to say that much of what you imply is pretty insulting to women worldwide because it implies a dishonest perception to what women in so many countries are enduring.

And it is not solely in Muslim countries, so please dont try to stereotype countries of Islam, any more than they have already been, often unfairly scapegoated.

What in the world is your definition of unprecendented freedom??

[Woodstock]

68. The Iraq War Cheerleaders must have gotten behind in their reading

Here are a couple of links on women:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031229&s=sandler

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/07/iraq071603.htm

On the larger issue of the Iraq War (which this questionable poll seeks to distract us from):

http://www.thenation.com/issue.mhtml?i=20040329
(several good ones here, including one from Edward Kennedy)

[shance]

74. Woodie did good!

Thanks.

[shance]

64. This is very good to know, albeit this is certainly NOT progress.

Lets be clear about that.

What this does is merely place Iraqi women back to square one where they were when Saddam was ruling.

Its more damage control, like much of what we are having to do dealing with reproductive rights/womens rights/Gay rights/etc. here in the US.

Its yet more utilization of energy that could have been more wisely used to further progress Iraqi women into both governmental and leadership positions in general.

By not placing them back into an enslaved and essentially incarcerated existence, is no prized accomplishment is it?

[Woodstock]

57. I have some oceanfront property in Iowa you might like

Come on. As soon as the Americans are out, they can "toss in" whatever they damned well please. EVERYONE knows this, and has said as much. You really need to read up on what the womens' groups are saying, instead of Chalabi's pals.

[PoundSiO2]

27. Read it and weep

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[shance]

46. You keep drawing this like a gun Pound. Its getting worn out there.

Who really cares what CNN says? As if they have been accurate in the War coverage to begin with?

They have a vested interest in promoting an image that totally contradicts others who have actually been there and seen the situation themselves.

[Dogmudgeon]

4. Here's an analogy

A child is mistreated by her parents, who beat, rape, and starve her.

She is taken by Child Welfare and placed in a foster home.

The people in the foster home just beat her.

The little girl is better off, but she is still in grave danger.

It's good that Saddam is on ice. It's bad that in order to do it, we alienated most of our friends in the UN and NATO, spent $300 bln (and climbing), lied to ourselves (i.e., Bush lied to the public), and are now mishandling the transition to Iraqi democracy.

It's "out of the fire and into the frying pan" for Iraq, and all the neo-cons can think of is defending the honor of their Wise and Courageous Leader. The little girl that is Iraq is still being beaten. It's a shame all around, but now the blame attaches to Team Bush.

--bkl

[Eureka]

5. What reports?

Got anything at all to back yourself up?
Got anything credible to back yourself up?

I think even pResident Dimbulb* said accusations should be backed up.

Before we can nullify the reports, maybe you could throw a few of these reports over.

[PoundSiO2]

7. It's on all the news channels

Hard to hide from it. How do we combat it?

[Eureka]

9. Back yourself up

Any news that "on all the news channels" is going to be covered in print.

Do you have any links to anything you can lay on the table now? Vid feeds from news channels will be fine, but you should provide specific information, otherwise people might think your just another outlet of 'news channel' propaganda, and we wouldn't want that.

[Mick Knox]

15. For god's sakes

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040316/wl_nm/iraq_poll_dc_2


that said... the saying "liberated the hell out of them" comes to mind......

[shance]

23. Go to any legitimate foreign press or independent media

with no vested interest in Iraq, other than to cover the reality of what has happened in Iraq.

There you will find what you are looking for. Its not pretty, but its the truth.

Take politics out of the equation and look at it from the humanitarian perspective that it should be viewed from and deserves.

[PoundSiO2]

25. Here, since you can't google...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[ComerPerro]

41. Wow, you are really going to town with your ONE ARTICLE

Jesus Christ, that is pathetic

[Columbia]

44. Here's another one, done by Gallup

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-10-14-baghdad-poll_x.htm

Poll: Most in Baghdad want troops to stay

WASHINGTON (AP) — When Gallup set out recently to poll Baghdad residents, the biggest surprise may have been the public's reaction to the questioners: Almost everyone responded to the pollsters' questions, with some pleading for a chance to give their opinions.
"The interviews took more than an hour to do, people were extremely cooperative with open-ended questions," said Richard Burkholder, director of international polling for Gallup. "People went on and on."

But many of those Iraqis still have sharply mixed feelings about the U.S. military presence.

The Gallup poll found that 71% of the capital city's residents felt U.S. troops should not leave in the next few months. Just 26% felt the troops should leave that soon.

[ComerPerro]

53. Of course they don't want them to leave right away

I think it is safe to say that most Iraqis want us to stay longer, now that we have completely fucked everything up.



But this whole issue of "is Iraq better off" is bullshit anyway.

Remember when the war was about US security? Remember when Bush was against nation building?

Let us not forget that this war was based on lies, was poorly planned, hap-hazzardly executed, was supposed to be over in a matter of weeks, was supposed to be a cakewalk, and really never was about the freedom of the Iraqi people.

But now it is just a massive mess and an overwhelming financial drain on the US.

[PoundSiO2]

26. Here, start with this...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[Woodstock]

10. Remind them half of Iraq is women - and they aren't happy

Nor were they likely polled. They don't get out much.

[Sulldogg]

13. Why not

Why aren't they happy?

And how do you know if they aren't polled?

[niceypoo]

16. Show us the poll

Put up or shut up..............or better yet, go back to freeperland

[Sulldogg]

19. I never brought up a poll

I asked how you knew, that is all.

If you don't have proof, that's fine, just asking where your statement that they weren't happier comes from.

[PoundSiO2]

24. Try this

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[Eureka]

18. Well lets see

Iraq used to be one of the more progressive arab nations with regards to women, now there are moves to get back into being an islamic nation and subsequently there are calls to have burquas back, among other things.

Its on all the news channels (at least, news channels that are based in countries where the press isn't an arm of the executive that is)

[Woodstock]

47. I just read an article in Marie Claire

Where there was a brutal rape and the law officials shrugged it off. Now the woman and her sister are trapped inside their homes with guys parked outside their home ready to pounce on them if they go out. US officials in Iraq, when asked about better security for women, said "we don't do women." The article included picture of the street scene in Baghdad - and it was all men.

This is just the most recent thing I've read. The Nation has had good coverage of women in Iraq and Afghanistan... The women are back to burkas and living in fear in Afghanistan, as well...

[shance]

66. Exactly.

Good sources WS***

[ComerPerro]

14. And where are these reports, besides on Faux News and at Free Republic?

How many Iraqi citizens currently living in Iraq have you spoken to?

How can someone have an increased standard of living with no water or electricity?

[PoundSiO2]

21. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[ComerPerro]

28. Gee, it didn't take long to find this:

And almost half -- 49 percent -- of those questioned believe the invasion of their country by U.S. and British troops was right, compared with 39 percent who said it was wrong.

Gee, so fifty percent think it was right, and forty percent think it was wrong...

Hmm...

But, I'm sorry. I guess that 40% is compeletely irrelevant.

Fuck them, right?


EDIT:

Hey, look what I found when I kept reading!

But Iraqis are concerned about conditions in their country, the poll shows.

They have considerable worries about joblessness, security and basic services like electricity.
...
Seven in 10 say the availability of jobs is poor and nearly that many said the same about electricity.
...
About half said they oppose the presence of coalition forces,
...
Only 25 percent said they had confidence in coalition forces to deliver their needs. There were far higher levels of confidence in Iraqi religious leaders, 70 percent; local police, 68 percent; and the new Iraqi army, 56 percent.
...

And then there was this little gem:

The polling firm "reported a car wreck, interviewers detained by coalition forces, interviewers detained and questioned by Iraqi police, and some who had to detour around a bombing site," he said.

[Woodstock]

38. Also, it's tough to be polled when bombs are going off

or when you are too frightened to leave your house (and way too many women are in this position.)

The poll, just by the very nature of instability in the country, including lawlessness and lack of basic utilities, is skewed and invalid.

It's like going to LA and polling just the people in limos to ask if everything is hunky dorey.

[ComerPerro]

39. Sir, we would like to interview you for a poll

But, don't let our armed American esocrts in any way intimidate you our influence your responses.

Now say you love America or I will blow your fucking head off!

(Well, ok, that last sentence is just something I made up. Its not that bad, I am sure).

[Woodstock]

50. Would you like to have Thanksgiving dinner?

Just fill out this form of allegiance to Mr. Bush, and it's all yours. Otherwise, we have some nice dehydrated spam from 1972... :)

[ComerPerro]

54. But don't eat the turkey.

It's plastic

[Woodstock]

60. :-)

[shance]

67. LOL***

n/t

[PoundSiO2]

22. Here you go

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

[Columbia]

33. Wonder if you'd answer your own question?

"How many Iraqi citizens currently living in Iraq have you spoken to?"

[ComerPerro]

35. Personally, seven

But seriously, not a one.

I am just basing my opinion on the fact that living in a war zone, having the water and power knocked out, and facing the threat of daily attacks and bombings would really piss me off.

Add to that high unemployment and military raids...

Yeah, I would think life sucks.

[ComerPerro]

36. By the way, where in that CNN story

does it even suggest that life is so much better now?

[Columbia]

42. Well, I'm basing my opinion

On speaking with hundreds of Iraqis.

[ComerPerro]

43. I'm sure

I could speak to hundereds of Americans and learn that aryans are the master race if I was out to find such results...

[Columbia]

48. I don't doubt it

:eyes:

Guess you'd never accept the fact that I was against this war and was swayed more favorably towards it by the Iraqi people.

[ComerPerro]

56. Well, you are right

But most of that comes from the fact that I think you are full of shit

[Columbia]

58. That's your right to think that

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and think that if it makes you feel better.

[tkmorris]

70. Correct me if I'm wrong but.....

Aren't you the guy who keeps claiming to have served in Iraq but refuses to provide any evidence of that? Not that it would be terribly impressive in any case, many of us have served, but if you are going to continue harping about your first-hand knowledge it seems to me you should at least post some creds when asked.

Otherwise you're just whistling Dixie mate.

[Columbia]

75. What kind of evidence do you want?

I've said before that because I am still in the service, I cannot provide details concerning individual identity. In either case, it would not be terribly difficult to just find a unit that was deployed to Iraq and say I was with that unit would it if I was trying to pass myself off as an Iraq vet?

However, if you know of another Iraq vet, I'm sure s/he could relay questions that only another Iraq vet would know that I could answer.

And in the end, if you don't want to take my word for it, then it's your loss, not mine. No sweat off my back if you don't want firsthand knowledge that hasn't been sifted through countless layers of media.

[Columbia]

76. Here's proof

Link

This picture is from my personal photo collection. You will not find it posted anywhere else on the web.

(If anyone knows a better free photo hosting service, please let me know)

[tkmorris]

77. OK, I accept that

Honestly I thought your responses in the past smelled of deception but I think you are sincere. You really were in Iraq.

I still disagree with you on many points but I believe you are at least forthright in your opinion. I respect that. Please accept my apologies for doubting you; there have been a huge number of, shall we say, disengenuous posters around here at times. As I'm sure you know.

[Columbia]

79. No problem

I have a lot of problems with the war too, but it is hard for me to plunge into negativity when the people over there when they they've gone through so much already. They deserve better and I want that for them.

[Vladimir]

83. Look at my post at the bottom

I'm not saying I necessarily believe it, but we need to look at the polling methodology seriously.

V

[Columbia]

20. Poll: Iraqis say life better now

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html

LONDON, England -- A majority of Iraqis believe life is better now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a poll by broadcasting organizations released to coincide with the first anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion.

And almost half -- 49 percent -- of those questioned believe the invasion of their country by U.S. and British troops was right, compared with 39 percent who said it was wrong.

The poll -- the first nationwide poll in Iraq since the war -- was commissioned by ABC of the U.S., Britain's BBC, Germany's ARD and Japan's NHK.

Some 57 percent of respondents said life was better now than under Saddam, against 19 percent who said it was worse and 23 percent who said it was about the same.

<more>

[shance]

34. So CNN has no vested interest in promoting that belief?

I have heard from individuals who have actually been to Iraq within the last two months.

Their report back was ANYTHING but positive for the Iraqi people.

They had no reason to lie or distort. They went in hopes that things would ACTUALLY be better. What they returned with was instead a devastating account.

[Columbia]

37. Are you saying these sources are all uncredible?

"ABC of the U.S., Britain's BBC, Germany's ARD and Japan's NHK"?

[shance]

49. Are you saying their coverage of the War on Iraq HAS been fully credible?

Come on!

[Columbia]

55. Wouldn't really know

I wasn't watching TV at the time.

BBC World News on shortwave radio seemed to have it pretty good though.

[countmyvote4real]

40. Maybe I could get a job there. The prospects suck here. n/t

[Columbia]

62. You could try

I know someone who sold his business to start another one in Iraq.

[izzie]

69. If you believe that do not read their blogs.

They seem to think they have turned over one nut for another nut and this one has not the know how to turn on the lights or let them buy gas.

[kodi]

71. iraqi kurds are happier, but the iraqi arabs aren't.

count on it.

any data out there that on the regions/ethnic break down that the "alleged" polls come from?

i'd bet my dogs that a break down on the various regions show wide differences of support for the americans.

in the north, the kurds are happy, in the central (sunni) and southern (shiite) regions they probably detest the american presence.

[peterh]

72. Whether Iraqis are happier or not is totally irreverent…

Saddam’s sins had nothing to do with our war on terra
He may have been guilty of genocide
He was guilty of an act of aggression on Kuwait
His aggression on Iran was funded by us, so that doesn’t really count
He didn’t win any hearts west by promising to fund the families of suicide bombers….something I wouldn’t call funding terrorists directly….sorta a slippery slope there

All in all, I haven’t seen where Saddam was actively involved in terrorist activities outside of his boarders and I have not seen or heard of any Iraqi being linked to any group that has committed a recent atrocity. I have seen a lot of other nationalities, but nary an Iraqi.

Soooo….we have the war on terra and we have the question of whether the average Iraqi is happier or not…..it’s a multi billion dollar non sequitur


And not to sound greedy, but I think those dollars could be better spend elsewhere….

[tobius]

73. kerry thinks there may be a chance that the people will be better off.

.........
TIME: Obviously it's good that Saddam is out of power. Was bringing him down worth the cost?
KERRY: If there are no weapons of mass destruction— and we may yet find some—then this is a war that was fought on false pretenses, because that was the justification to the American people, to the Congress, to the world, and that was clearly the frame of my vote of consent. I said it as clearly as you can in my speech. I suggested that all the evils of Saddam Hussein alone were not a cause to go to war.

TIME: So, if we don't find WMD, the war wasn't worth the costs? That's a yes?
KERRY: No, I think you can still—wait, no. You can't—that's not a fair question, and I'll tell you why. You can wind up successful in transforming Iraq and changing the dynamics, and that may make it worth it, but that doesn't mean was the cause legitimacy to go. You have to have that distinction. ......

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040315/ninterview.html

[Democat]

78. This thread is flame bait - report it to the mods and move on

Do a search on other posts by the "democrat" who started this thread.

[Mick Knox]

80. How about these arguments:

How About:

- we make U.S. Children happy in properly built schools with properly paid teachers..

- We help some of the newly unemployed in the U.S.A.

- We put some of that money to wards job creating projects...

- We help some of those bilked out of their retirement in 401 Scandals

I can think of 100's of billions of things to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on rather than US Troops dying to make 1/2 of the Iraqi people happy....

But thats just me..

[LeahMira]

84. I am turned off by those arguments...

How About:
- we make U.S. Children happy in properly built schools with properly paid teachers..
- We help some of the newly unemployed in the U.S.A.
- We put some of that money to wards job creating projects...
- We help some of those bilked out of their retirement in 401 Scandals

I'm turned off mainly because they're all about "me, me, me."

Certainly our government has a responsibility to provide for the common good of its own citizens, and I'll even give you the point that this responsibility takes precedence. Still, we are the wealthiest nation in the world, with resources far surpassing anything found elsewhere on the planet. It is absolutely incumbent upon our government to give a good bit of what we have to improve the quality of life throughout the world.

The pResident received applause for his proposal to give money to nations in Africa for HIV/AIDS prevention, yet my understanding is that he apparently offered no funding to back that proposal. What's with that? This country should be taking a leadership role in the fight against HIV/AIDS.

We sit here typing away on computers and assuming that the internet is available to just about anyone in the world, yet most of the world's peoples have never even used a telephone, and most of them live over 100 miles from the nearest phone.


I'm getting tired of hearing how much better we could use the resources that we are pouring into the senseless "war on terror" if only we could spend that money on ourselves. Sure, there are things here at home that need tweaking... our health care system comes to mind right away... but focusing only on how WE could use that extra money just plays into the insane greed that powers the entire capitalist system.

With all our problems, we in the U.S. have it far better than most people. Maybe once the rest of the world has a start at catching up, maybe then we can start thinking about a few goodies we'd like for ourselves.

[DinahMoeHum]

81. Which Iraqis are they talking about??

They're not homogenous; they're a hodgepodge of tribes and cultures.


:bounce:

[Vladimir]

82. Here is that poll in full, as taken from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf

It doesn't have a regional breakdown of the results, but does breakdown the number of people polled by region. I am not an expert on Iraqi geography and would appreciate if someone would corroberate or debunk the pollster's claims that the survey is geographically balanced.

What I would note is this: the poll was conducted door to door. This does certainly improve accuracy as opposed to telephone polling. However, it does mean that the pollsters might well have stayed out of troublesome neighbourhoods for their own safety. It also most definitely makes it an open question whether women were free to express their opinions on the matter.

Anyone with more time to spend looking into this, I would be most grateful.

V