Why the Fffing hell were Baptists Missionaries wondering around in Iraq?

[trumad]

I've read several stories about these folks and it seems they were just wondering around the city acting as if they were in some U.S city or something? How can we allow that to happen? I blame Bremer and gang for allowing it to happen. Don't we have warnings and laws that prevent folks from entering hostile, dangerous countries?

Did the blind arrogance of the U.S Admin put these people in harms way because they feel that all's well, so yah, let the white er..baptist missionaries go anywhere they want...

Somebody should be held accountable for this.....

[mandyky]

1. Faith based foreign policy

They actually believe shrub (or God) can protect them in Iraq

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. If they're anything like my sister...

God would never allow anything bad to happen to them, and if it did happen, it was God's will.

[Exgeneral]

3. I assume from your tone some got shot?

I've been working a long shift and haven't heard. My impression was this was part of the nod and wink * treatment of proseletizers in other countries.

As long as they are "Born Again"....

[DrWeird]

4. Because it's a crusade.

You think Bush could literally talk about a crusade and nutty missionaries wouldn't get the hint?

[Timefortruth]

5. I'm certain these were sincere people, but

isn't it hostile to the host country for the US to allow missionaries into a religious nation in such a fragile time?

[pinkpops]

7. They were working on water projects

Holy water?

[salin]

13. remember the army chaplain

who got 'control' of water tanks - would only give access (for bathing) as a form of baptism? Claimed that if duress brought the soldiers to be baptized, then it was all worth while.

That said, there are many folks who are involved in NGO type work, who happen to also be religious. Sometimes it is not about 'proselytizing' ... that might be the case in this situation?

[Timefortruth]

17. Yes, I do remember that.

The list of horrors grows so long that I block some out.

Worse, I think Chimp is going to be elected this time around. It may take BBV help, but he is going to pull it off. The foreign leaders stuff is sticking to Kerry, never mind that the comment is true. The media just wants Chimp in power and without honesty in the press there is little hope.

[Jawja]

14. Good point.

My Mom and I were just discussing this. The State Department should never have allowed missionaries into Iraq while we are a occupying force.

Sends the wrong message: "your Religious beliefs are wrong; so not only are we going to occupy your country, we are going to convert you to Christianity in the process."

[roguevalley]

35. They are the match that will light civil war. If they believe they are

coming to convert, as 10,000 or so are waiting for the
high sign to go, then there will be war.

[sangha]

24. There are Christians in Iraq

.

[ithacan]

47. and those Christians have their own clergy and church

they most assuredly ARE NOT southern baptists, and they DO have their own churches and clergy.

The last thing they need is American baptist missionaries going in and telling them they're worshipping Jesus in the wrong way...

The fact that these missionaries came in with the US military occupation is absolutely outrageous, but then again, I'm not surprised, given that the GOP has been hijacked by the religious right...

(for details on how the GOP was hijacked by the religious right, see http://www.TheocracyWatch.org/)

[eissa]

64. Converting the converted

I posted this in a similar thread. These "humanitarians" cause more harm than good. They never succeed in converting the "infidels" and resort instead to the local Christians, weakening the churches there and causing friction.

These ARE crusaders, make no mistake. They don't care about the water, and I have read nothing to indicate that they were even qualified to change light bulbs, let alone "water purification" systems. And their ignorance is baffling; we may have forgotten the Crusades, but I guarantee you it is not forgotten there at all.

Finally, I find it so disturbing that these missionaries have such easy access to Iraq when Iraqis living abroad are having difficulty entering the country themselves.

[SemperEadem]

73. considering that the missionaries are looked upon, themselves

as "western infidels"...

[alcuno]

6. Whatever happened to the 40,000?

Remember before the war there were 40,000 missionaries ready to go into Iraq to convert them to Christianity? Obviously there are a handful over there, but I guess the original plan had to be abandoned due to "complications."

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

22. Yeah, the complications being "caps busted in yo ass"

[Chovexani]

8. This might be a clue.

The Stealth Crusade
Inside one Southern university, Christian missionaries are being trained to go undercover in the Muslim world and win converts for Jesus. Their stated goal: to wipe out Islam.

By Barry Yeoman

May/June 2002 Issue

At 8 o'clock on a warm Monday morning in January, 20 students file into Rick Love's classroom at Columbia International University in South Carolina. Eyes glassy from writing papers all weekend, they clutch Styrofoam cups of Folgers as they settle into their seats. In front, an overhead projector hums; it is hooked up to the instructor's laptop, ready for a morning full of PowerPoint presentations.

Outside, CIU's piney campus is quiet. Most of the student body has not yet returned from Christmas break. But these students, all evangelical Christians, have arrived two weeks early for an intensive course on how to win converts in Islamic countries. They're learning from the master: Love is the international director of Frontiers, the largest Christian group in the world that focuses exclusively on proselytizing to Muslims. With 800 missionaries in 50 countries, Frontiers' reach extends from the South Pacific to North Africa, with every major Islamic region in between.

<snip>

This morning's lesson is about going undercover. Many of Love's students are missionaries themselves, temporarily home from assignments in places ranging from Kazakhstan to Kenya. They know firsthand that evangelism is illegal in many Islamic nations, and they face expulsion if their true intentions become known. Love's lesson for today is how to mask one's identity while secretly working to convert Muslims. Evangelists, he explains, should always have a ready, nonreligious explanation for their presence in hostile areas.

<snip>

That, he says, is the model for winning converts in the Islamic world: Find another pretext to be in the country. Build friendships with the locals. Once you've developed trust, then it's time to try to gain new believers. But don't reveal your true purpose too early. "How did Jesus explain why he was there?" Love asks the class. "Indirectly," volunteers a veteran missionary. "He'd say, 'Why do you think I'm here?'"

"Did Jesus ever lie?" In unison, the class says, "No."

"But did Jesus raise his hand and say, 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?'" Again, 20 voices call out, "No!"

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2002/05/stealth.html

Some sick shit, if you ask me.

[maggrwaggr]

19. so let me get this straight ....

they're supposed to go undercover into Muslim communities, then sorta gradually spring upon their new "friends" that they're actually there to convert them?

Hell, THAT doesn't even work at DU. And what happens? Tombstones.

What the fuck do these people expect?

Okay, I'm pretending to be your buddy, but one day I reveal that I have ulterior motives. What a betrayal. I'd say "fuck you" too.

[varun]

45. They are in for a surprise

The punishment for apostacy is death (in Islam). How many muslims would leave their religion?

[lastknowngood]

9. Yea I was saying earlier today if your a Baptist and your driving

around Iraq and you get shot, I don't see the surprise and I can't muster and sympathy. If you point a gun at your head and pull the trigger don't be surprised if it doesn't turn out well.

[rfkrocks]

10. Right on Trumad

(love the name) How did our government let these well meaning people in Iraq-more lambs to the slaughterhouse-we haven't killed enough of our soldiers so we want to add civilans? WTF!!! Bushco didn't study history-we won our revolution agaisnt the greatest super power of the 18th century with only 1/3 of population avid revoultionaries-thats probably what Iraq is like-so into that instability we throw regular americans in? This is unbelievable - evryday I wonder why this country is split 50/50-is this a dream?

[kalian]

11. They were searching for their souls....

:evilgrin:

They must've met up with their rapture instead...

[mandyky]

12. What many folks (Americans)

fail to realize is that Islam and free market capitalism as we know it are not really compatible with each other. If American Christians try selling the whole American dream package in some parts of the Islamic culture, it won't fly.

[Chovexani]

15. Read the Mojo article I linked to above.

That doesn't mean they won't try.

[billbuckhead]

16. American "Christians" looking for martyrdom?

[ComerPerro]

18. Didn't you hear? Jesus is returning!

They were waiting for the rapture

[arewethereyet]

20. its a free country now, they're allowed

[Kathy in Cambridge]

25. As long as my federal tax money isn't supporting this 'faith-based' jihad

they're more than welcome to put their asses in the line of fire.

[arewethereyet]

29. its not, the Baptists do it

the Mission board is located in my home town and they had a leader on the radio talking about it.

the have people all over the world trying to do a little good.

despite the negative attacks on that denomination on this board, they put their money and their selves into serving the Lord everywhere they can.

[oldcoot]

32. Are you talking about the International Mission Board?

The following is a very interesting article about the International Mission Board: http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/27/ixhome.html .

[arewethereyet]

38. yup, thats them

and whats interesting about it ? I read most of it. pretty standard mission stuff as has been going on for millenia.

[oldcoot]

55. The people quoted in this article are bigots

According to the article, "missionaries are mainly evangelicals who reject talk of Muslims and Christians worshipping the same God." The author quotes Jerry Vines as describing "the Prophet Mohammed as a 'demon-obsessed paedophile.'" I know that in the past missionaries often viewed the people that they were trying to save as inferior and as heathens. Indeed, I would not have found most of these comments (other than the "demon-obsessed paedophile") surprising if they were made by Protestant missionaries during the 19th century. However, I would have hoped that they would have evolved over time.

[salin]

70. two different types of 'mission' work

some are affiliated with churches - but do NGO humanitarian type work (building or rebuilding infrastructure such as hospitals and schools - and in this case - water infrastructure).... others are simply prostelytizing. I would hope that in the crisis situation in the country those missionaries on the ground are of the first category.

[Jane Austin]

21. I heard

On NPR that they were bringing clean water to the people.

[leftchick]

44. Aren't my tax dollars paying Halliburton

to do that? :shrug:

[Jane Austin]

72. Yes, in a non-Bush world.

n/t

[maggrwaggr]

23. Send 'em all over there!!!

What do you call four dead fundie missionaries in Iraq?

A good start!

(to borrow an old lawyer joke)

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. Very progressive

Calling for their deaths like that.

[tobius]

26. this whole thread is quite amazing. if they kept out people, oh let's

think here.... oh, yeah- if they kept out human shields or war protesters the outrage would be cracking my computer monitor. I'm guessing that some here would like to allow only approved advocacy groups in...? I could be wrong.,.. I guess.

[mandyky]

43. Actually that is part of the outrage

The human shields and peace protestors have been threatened that they will be charged with treason or aiding and abetting the enemy.

Personally I think we should send American civilians to Iraq to adopt a family or community and live there - maybe Peace Corps people or something, but injecting prostelitizing Chrisitianity at the moment is not smart or right. Being dishonest about why they are there does not help buld trust.

[Nederland]

27. Disagree

These people are adults. However misguided their beliefs may be, they are entitled to them and they are entitled to weigh the risks of entering a foreign country for themselves. I don't for a minute want to have the US Government telling me what countries I can visit and why. They can issue travel advisories all day long if they want, but ultimately the decision to go should be left to individuals.

[markses]

28. I guess I'll see you in Havana

I don't for a minute want to have the US Government telling me what countries I can visit and why. They can issue travel advisories all day long if they want, but ultimately the decision to go should be left to individuals.

Aaaaaaalright, let's say Varadero!



Varadero, Cuba

[Nederland]

61. Yup

I guess it goes without saying that I think the US Cuba policy is idiotic too...

[guajira]

62. Cuba is the Only Country Americans are forbidden to visit!!!!

And your picture shows why. All those gorgeous white sand beaches and the friendly people. Americans would find out that we have been lied to for 40+ years by a government pandering to hate-filled Miami exiles!

See you in Havana!!!

[packer]

30. Toss The Race Card

I don't agree, but actualy thought you had a valid point untill you tossed the race card in (the white er..baptist). More than fifty percent of all Black American churches in this country are Baptist, I would like to see you walk into any one of them and explain to them that they are actually CRACKERS. Throw the race card away, it's outdated....

[trumad]

33. Race Card...

Take a look at this Pic...


They're fucking White....

[packer]

39. Oh Yeah

No doubt about it there Crackers... But there probably decient folk.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

59. grammar police:

they are=they're
decient=decent

[TankLV]

36. Most of the white, closet racist churchs are SOUTHERN Baptist.

Most of the black churchs are just "Baptist".

The "Southern" Baptists broke away from the original, main "Baptist" church because of their hatred of black people.

That's a fact.

[packer]

41. Facts????

The Sounthern Baptist Congregation is probably one of the largest chuches in the United States. Not only was Bill Clinton a member of it, But it does hold the largest black gathering of any church int he U.S. You should not be so care free with the word Fact.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. Actually I wasn't going to post this, but I knew this family (two of them)

They are close friends of my best friend's family and I had met them in NC when I was there. They had spent time in Honduras doing missionary work as well..they had always been religious people and a couple decades ago they became evangelical Baptists...prior to this they had participated in a Methodist congregation.

They were there on a religious mission and that is unfortunate since their religious leader, Franklin Graham had made statements to the effect that Islam was evil and they probably bought this hook, line sinker and whole ocean...be that as it may...I doubt their intent in being there was less than humanitarian...clean water is a very big issue in Iraq.

[trumad]

34. I'm sure it was honorable

My point to this thread is what the fuck is Bremer allowing er...white Christain folks to walk around Iraq unguarded? I'm telling you, it's blind arrogance that allowed it....

[0007]

46. I don't get it!

The media doesn't have this much freedom do they?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. To be honest when these people go abroad

they want to be able to connect with people so they probably didn't want any "protection" when they traveled.

[TankLV]

37. One, because bunkerboy and his gang of thugs actually ENCOURAGED

them to go there. Many in the military command structure are die-hard talibornagains, including bremer and some other nutcase general who has yet to be disciplined.

The "baptism-for-a-drink/bath" idiots are fully supported by this bunch.

Shameful.

This was news about a year ago. I'm sure there's a past thread on it somewhere.

[opihimoimoi]

40. Its all business, they need more minds to steal to beef up the numbers.

The more minds they control, the more power they have. Its business.

[Vernunft II]

42. Godless Heathens 4, Missionaries 0

Hey, according to their belief they´re in Heaven now, seeking the Martyrium is a christian virtue. I wish more of them would do it.

[pippin]

48. Old Imperialist Strategy

They did this in China in the 19th century. The saying was: "bible in one hand and a gun in the other." Missionaries have historically paved the way in this two fisted fashion and the imperial coffers also got filled in the mean time.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. Sometimes it's about conversions, but sometimes

they just really want to help people who are in trouble. We don't know these folks, don't know how they interacted among the Iraqis, but perhaps we can give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they were putting their lives on the line to help people?

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[revcarol]

50. If their primary mission was to help the people,

their bios and their organization would have had some experience in water supplies, engineering, speaking Arabic, helping people someplace else.
Let's face it. They were primarily MISSIONARIES. They could have no more set up a water purification plant than they could have sent a man to the moon. At most, they would have had some kind of temporary portable system supplied by the church.

They give NGO's, especially Christian NGO's, that really HELP people a bad name.

[Az]

57. They were not trying to help with physical things

This is the real problem with belief systems that disconnect the identity from the body. Because they believe that the identity or soul of a person is immortal they discard the body as a factor. Thus what they do in the name of love is directed towards an noncoporeal thing they believe inhabits the body.

Dettach the identity from the body and you can convince truly decent people to do amazingly horrible things in the name of love. Its all a question of what they love. If in fact we are really just our body and our mind is an expression of it in action then they have discarded us along with our bodies. In seeking to help that which they love they have been twisted into destroying it.

[sendero]

51. Long ago...

... I learned not to confuse "well intentioned" with "good".

Imagine - our country has been attacked, it is being occupied by foreign troops. Missionairies from a non-Christian religion start appearing on the streets to inform us of the error of our Christian ways.

How long do you think they would live? In that circumstance, I'd give them days, not weeks.

[Az]

52. What would you do

Assume you believe that there is a knowable truth to the world. Assume you believe that part of being good is trying to teach others about this truth. Assume that you believe those that are not aware of this truth are being mislead by evil forces, deliberately disceaving them. Assume that you believe that your inaction could result in the eternal suffering of countless others. What would you do?

This is the world they live in. They believe there is a real battle going on between good and evil. They believe that evil is a real thing. That it corrupts people and pulls them into darkness. They believe that they are supposed to struggle to pull these people back into the light.

Now imagine you are sitting in your house when someone bursts in and starts trying to drag you out of it. They keep claiming that your house is on fire. You do not see the flames. They claim they are all around you. Now reverse it. You are walking along and you see a house on fire and someone sitting inside paying no attention to the flames. What would you do?

[Skittles]

53. because they are arrogant assholes

who think everyone wants to be an arrogant asshole

[AlphaCentai]

54. Accountable

"Somebody should be held accountable for this"

How do you get more accountable than being dead?

[RobinA]

58. Can't Believe This Thread

I'm amazed at these reactions coming from so-called liberals. If adults want to walk around a war zone spreading their versions of The Word, that's their business. Same as the ACLU can go over there and hand out leaflets if they want. It seems to me that, according to liberal ideals, anybody should be able to go anywhere and preach their agenda without governments coming around and throwing them out. Does it happen that way, no, but that's the ideal.

[devinsgram]

60. How long will it be before they figure out

THEY DON'T WANT US THERE?

[veganwitch]

65. remember the two evangelical gals caught by the taliban??

they were thrown in jail for converting people from islam and eventually released. one of them wrote a book and became a great missionary hero. dateline did a showl on them 2-3 years back and the reporter kept asking, why were you there? didnt you know that it was illegal/your life would be in danger? etc. and she just kept smiling and saying jesus was watching over her. that is the complete presumption of these people. jesus is on their side so they can shirk any rules/laws/common sense.

doing something illegal in the name of jesus (especially in a country that abhors jesus and doesnt mind killing you for it) doesnt make you a martyr, it makes you stupid.

[Wapsie B]

66. That and

it gives the konservative fundies ammunition when they claim persecution around the world.

[veganwitch]

69. im currently readin "under the banner of heaven"

about fundamentalist mormonism and the murder committed by two fundamentalist brothers and they said (as well as other fundamentalists quoted in the book) that they have no regard for the laws of man and only the laws of god matter. so committing welfare fraud, tax fraud, imbezzlement, kidnapping, incest, murder are no matter to them because they were order by god to do it.

[rinsd]

67. Disagree.....

"jesus is on their side so they can shirk any rules/laws/common sense"

Replace Jesus with morality or righteousness and you have described just about every great leader in movements for peace.

The outright hostility here to these people is surprising. Rachel Corrie was also in a hostile place and died doing what she believed in. In that respect these people are not much different.

Did they endanger themselves? Certainly but they were taking chances for what they believed in.

[veganwitch]

71. i will admitt my bias against religious proselytisers...

i dont like folks' whose agendas to "do good" are simply to score points with some big dude in the sky. (I'm a firm believe in Immanuel Kant: that you should do good, because you just should, whether you want to or not, whether you profit or not.)

[tom_paine]

68. Allies of the Emperor get special treatment.

Always.

I have no doubt that the Busheviks greased the wheels for them to go over there...no paperwork, no restrictions.

Poor bastards. They should know not to trust the Imperials.

[indepat]

74. I would proffer they were there to bring those Muslims to Jesus: that's

what Baptists do.